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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | EPA pushes paper mills to start Fox River cleanup
Industry insiders say order could open the door to litigation.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=686416
The closed-door negotiations between the paper mills blamed for the PCB mess on the Fox River in northeastern Wisconsin evidently aren't moving forward fast enough for the Environmental Protection Agency.
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The paper companies have been trying to figure out their respective shares for what is expected to be a $400 million cleanup, but on Wednesday the EPA ordered them to get to work next month, even if their negotiations are stalled.
The state of Wisconsin, the paper companies and many local political leaders in the Green Bay area have for more than a decade been arguing that a cooperative approach to the cleanup is the most efficient way to tackle the problem. But the threat always remained that the super-industrialized river could be added to the Superfund list if things couldn't be worked out in a friendly manner.
Wednesday's announcement doesn't mean a Superfund listing, but it might be a step in that direction. The order requires the companies next month to start buying the required equipment and making plans for a suitable landfill, among other things.
It requires the actual dredging work on the stretch of river between Appleton and the mouth of Green Bay to begin in summer 2009.
Paper industry representatives weren't happy with what the EPA termed a "unilateral administrative order."
"The order can potentially move the Fox River cleanup from what has been a very cooperative and collaborative approach to a legal proceeding," said Georgia-Pacific spokeswoman Mary Jo Malach.
"We thought we'd been making really good progress in addressing the agencies' issues, but apparently they didn't share that viewpoint."
Malach added that the order "really opens the door to litigation by companies that don't agree with the path forward."
Wisconsin support
The EPA push is supported by Wisconsin officials who have not given up hope that a friendly settlement will still be reached. But they are worried if early work on the project doesn't start soon, the state's hoped-for 2009 schedule to start the cleanup could be pushed back indefinitely.
"The way to get this project done right and get it done quickly is to do it in a cooperative fashion," said Bruce Baker, deputy administrator for the water division of the state Department of Natural Resources. "But when it becomes clear that that's not going to happen, then we have to look at other options, and that's what happened here."
It's been four years since the plan to dredge millions of cubic yards of contaminated sediment from the river bottom was first approved, and the government's patience is clearly wearing thin.
"The lead time for getting a landfill worked out and constructed and the lead time for acquiring some of the equipment for dewatering and dredging, all that stuff takes at least a year. And putting that off to sometime into the unknown future based on discussions that have not worked out . . . this is just too big of a delay," Baker said.
Placing the waste
Even if the paper companies do reach an agreement on how to proceed, finding a place to put most of the waste remains a sticking point. Contaminants from a small-scale dredging project on the river this summer were trucked to the Detroit area, but the state is hoping the paper companies can reach a deal with local government leaders to put the bulk of the contaminants on a county-owned parcel.
The original cleanup plan called for the removal of nearly 8 million cubic yards of sediment, but the DNR approved a revised plan this year that calls for dredging only about half that amount. The rest of the contaminated sediment will be capped, an easier and cheaper method of trying to clean up the river.
The pollution came from seven paper mills that either manufactured or recycled carbonless copy paper containing PCBs between 1954 and 1971. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Dennis.
The EPA has gotten some extra large NADS the last year or so on these matters. Don't really know what happened, or if they got a new boss that's shaking things up. But they are demanding to see something happen on all these stalled clean up efforts which have been on the books forever, which I consider a good thing. Sad part is, there is probably hundreds or more large and/or smaller companies up river that did their share of poluting over the years on these river systems, but have since closed or moved away, letting them off the monitary clean up hook so to speak.
Edited by walleye express 11/15/2007 10:01 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Agreed,
Personally, I wish that they would just encapsulate the whole thing instead of stirring up the bottom. |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "Sad part is, there is probably hundreds or more large and/or smaller companies up river that did their share of poluting over the years on these river systems, but have since closed or moved away, letting them off the monitary clean up hook so to speak."
Not the case here. The majority of the PCB's in question came from the production of carbonless copy paper. The RP's have been identified and they have (reluctantly) agreed to pay. They are simply fighting over how much and which method. As a resident of the valley, I hope these companies get off their collective duffs and work this out BEFORE the EPA steps in. If they think its expensive now, just wait until the EPA takes over.
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Sunshine -
Many suggest that dredging is the best route because it ensures the removal of the contaminate. Others want all of the "hot spots" capped, as it is the cheapest method to limit the spread. From what I have read, a combination of both methods will most likely be employed as some areas simply do not lend themselves to capping (too shallow, current to swift, concentration too high).
In any event, I wouldn't worry about dredging stirring up sediment. They have turbity monitors set up above and below the dredge to ensure that what is coming up off the bottom goes onto the barge and is not scattered down stream. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | my question is.... does it do more damage to the environment to dig something up that has 15 feet of mud and silt covering it...? does stiring this up do more damage than its worth ? and hauling it somewhere else to be thrown into the ground and possibly into the ground water system of an aria population.. and agian the city of milw is dumping millions of gallons of RAW sewrage into the lake and these companys get the shake down and the bill for something that was the norm 100 years ago... everything usta get thrown into the river.. it wasnt uncommon to have the disposal of bodies.. you name it thats how it was in the old days.. is this shakedown justified or something we all should be responsible for if it needed to be done so bad.. was there even a law in those days to inforce this stuff... and why do we allow the import of toys and dog food that can kill us and then go after something like this with such persistance.. oh and how much was spent over the years in legal expenses by the state to try and recoup this fine ? my guess ,, a heck of a lot more is comming out of the tax payers pocket then i would have cost if we would have just dont the clean up without trying to prove the blame... this reeks of a political shakedown and when those 40 dollar an hour paper jobs , the few that are left are all gone.. then what? that kind of money will put the biggest operations out of buisness... what is the state doing? just makes no sence .... sometimes... but what do i know anyway.. |
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Location: Berlin | bradley894 - 11/15/2007 10:51 AM
my question is.... does it do more damage to the environment to dig something up that has 15 feet of mud and silt covering it...? does stiring this up do more damage than its worth ? and hauling it somewhere else to be thrown into the ground and possibly into the ground water system of an aria population.. and agian the city of milw is dumping millions of gallons of RAW sewrage into the lake and these companys get the shake down and the bill for something that was the norm 100 years ago... everything usta get thrown into the river.. it wasnt uncommon to have the disposal of bodies.. you name it thats how it was in the old days.. is this shakedown justified or something we all should be responsible for if it needed to be done so bad.. was there even a law in those days to inforce this stuff... and why do we allow the import of toys and dog food that can kill us and then go after something like this with such persistance.. oh and how much was spent over the years in legal expenses by the state to try and recoup this fine ? my guess ,, a heck of a lot more is comming out of the tax payers pocket then i would have cost if we would have just dont the clean up without trying to prove the blame... this reeks of a political shakedown and when those 40 dollar an hour paper jobs , the few that are left are all gone.. then what? that kind of money will put the biggest operations out of buisness... what is the state doing? just makes no sence .... sometimes... but what do i know anyway..
no....no...no...no...yes...no...no...no...yes...millions...true...maybe...no...yes...no...no...not sure...not everything...bodies?...no doubt...no...china sucks...lots...yes...might...everything they can...what does?...same thing I know, not much! |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | hahahahaahahaahahaha good one rich SSSSSS
ya know what, leave it all in the river, aint hurtin' nutten now.
Take all that cash they are going to spend, and give every wisconsin resident that was a resident since, say 1995 a cut of the money equally. That will spur the economy many times over and evryone will have much more to talk about. 400 mill split 3.5 mill ways equals? |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | If the Fox has the same flow dynamics as the Tittabawassee (and I think it does) the contaminents in these hot spot are heavier then the bottom strata itself. But they can and do migrate downstream or over into flood plane areas on high water events. Most will gather in certain areas (Hot Spots) because of the rivers flow chartacteristics. It's this flow that will never allow some of these spots to be covered like in river systems that flow slower and carry more heavy sediment that continually cover these contaminents. I've learned all this while working for the last few years with the crew charged with the Tittabawassee's clean up. And spent a day assisting the EPA research vessel the "Mud Puppy" when they were doing 6, 8 and 10 foot core sample on the Saginaw River. In that river the contaminents are safelly sealed under 3 to 5 feet or non toxic mud and are not seeping. And leaving this sleeping dog lie (IMV) would be the best thing to do. |
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Location: Berlin | stacker - 11/15/2007 12:11 PM
hahahahaahahaahahaha good one rich SSSSSS
ya know what, leave it all in the river, aint hurtin' nutten now.
Take all that cash they are going to spend, and give every wisconsin resident that was a resident since, say 1995 a cut of the money equally. That will spur the economy many times over and evryone will have much more to talk about. 400 mill split 3.5 mill ways equals?
I say whoever can drink the most river water in one sitting gets all the money! |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Hahahaha Rich...
The problem with the PCB's is that it is NOT under 15 feet of sand and mud, otherwise it wouldn't be showing up in the fish. Every year, more and more PCB's are flowing out of the Fox and into Green Bay. Once in the bay, it spreads and becomes VERY difficult and much, much more costly to try to control. Land fills are designed to ensure the pollutant stays in place and some of them even have systems to capture the leachate (water that filters through the landfill) so that polluting the ground water isn't a concern.
I'll give ya credit though 894... I've never seen someone hopscotch from Fox River PCB's to Milwaukee's storm/sanitary sewer sytem to lead paint in imported toys to melamine in dog food and still find a way to come full circle right back to the biggest problem... What is the biggest problem you ask? IMHO, it is that very few people care enough to become familiar with issues like this, thus making sure they will NEVER be part of the solution. Personally, I'd rather not have to pay for this when these companies are still in the area and can afford to clean up their mess, but if that's what it takes, I'd rather see my hard earned tax dollars spend on cleaning up the Fox than on some pork bill out of washington like the one that allowed The Office of Education to spend $219,592 in a “curriculum package” to teach college students how to watch television or the bill that paid the United States Department of the Army for a 1981 study on how to buy a bottle of Worcestershire sauce.
Future eggheaded comments on the topic will be with-held unless specifically requested. And I don't see that happening. 
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| It would be ashame to see this get pushed into litigation, it's a big chunk of money that the paper mills need to decide who pays what share. The reason it would be ashame to see it in litigation is you would have a handful of money hungry "parasites" trying to get their share of the pie. I think it would be best to keep the lawyers out of the mix if possible.
Dennis, the stirring of sediment, I don't think is a huge concern. I drive pass LLBDM every day for work. I've been watching the clean up from my drive for the past two years. They pretty much use a glorified vaccum cleaner and are just sucking sediment off the bottom. it's obviously more complicated than that, but you get the idea.
Right now, the clean-up teams have been doing lots of core sampleing on the Fox river in the Green Bay stretch of the river. Do yourself a favor and talk with these guys the next tie you see 'em at the ramp. It's interesting stuff, they are happy to tell you how they do thier job and how it's all done.
Brad, Tell me a story
Edited by Jayman 11/15/2007 1:03 PM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Can't... talk... right... now... Jayman. Concentrating... on... trying to... swallow.... river water! |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | are all the perch comming into the river from the bay chasing a dust cloud ? Brad B you seem to have your face in the water? what do you see? |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Sorry, can't help ya. Only my mouth is under water. Does appear to be a flock of birds upstream though. |
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| The lumpy stuff is comorant poo! |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | The simple answer to the "can they dredge it up without stirring the botttom" is yes. They put the "snout below the surface and they can leave the surface intact, if that is needed or they can dredge the surface off. Depends on the goal... My great uncle operated a small sand dredge on the Mississippi and he told me he could pull sand from under 6 or 8 feet of mud... the mud just dropped down and filled in the hole after the sand was pulled out. |
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Fox River cleanup