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Posts: 102
| Hi. Back from the UP and I have info. I thought a four blade 23 pitch would work and they ordered one for me, a 23 pitch Cyclone. But when I saw it I said "Oh-oh!" No vent holes. I had the rear deck out, three of us averaging a little over 205 apiece in the boat, six tackle boxes, cooler full of drinks and sandwiches all in the back, and a full tank of gas. 200 E-Tec in the second hole from the top. Put the hammer down and spun up a big fat 2200 RPMS. Couldn't even get out of the hole. Bummer! Just too much weight in the back I think, but you didn't dare put anything up front on the deck or it might pound right out of the boat in the stuff we were going to fish.
Put the Raker 20 pitch on, throttle wide open, and it groaned but when the nose finally came down it shot off and hit 5850 RPM's at a hair under 54mph showing on the Lowrance screen GPS. The I-Command said 60.0 one time at 5850 and the next it said 53.98 same as the Lowrance, at the same rpms so what do you believe?. I was not impressed with that set up.
The boat with that prop is a b***h to drive in the heavy stuff. You have the throttle almost wide open to get over the tops of the waves if you back off too far and then when you get up you have to back off quick or it takes off and drives into the next one. I also noticed it has a nasty lean to the port side with the trim down like I ran in the big waves. But it levels off nicely when you trim up. Only problem is when you trim up you are just a sneeze from having the nose start bouncing up and down uncontrolably and it happens in a heart beat. It's fine in the calmer stuff but in the 3 footers and more, yuck! I miss my 18.5' deep V Alumacraft for the rough stuff. It was so nose heavy you couldn't get into trouble with the trim.
On the bright side it's nice for working live bait casting and jigging with the electric bow mount, handles pretty good trolling with boards out, has plenty of room to spread out rods and people, and between the 9.9 Pro Kicker and the E-Tec I barely used 21 gallons in four 1/2 days. For the amount of time trolling or wallowing out in the heavy waves, that was pretty impressive considering I put about 3 hours on the big motor. With my old rig, I'd probably gone through 30 gallons or more for similar fishing. Gages tell me I'm getting about 3.79mpg at 39mph and at 40% throttle. It could be more at lesser throttle settings but it was too hard to keep the nose from jumping up and down at slower speeds if a wave starts it oscillating.
Now I can start the guessing game all over again for the prop. I either need less pitch than 23" or need vent holes in the prop to spin up some rpms. I still think that the 4 blade prop will give me better drivability. I tried having my heavier friend sit between the consoles and that helped get the boat on plane considerably faster so weight distribution is evidently pretty critical but that would be a kidney buster sitting there in bigger waves. Maybe when we don't have snowmobile suits, rain suits, and down vests filling the forward compartments I can put some more weight up there and it will behave better, but when it's 33 in the morning and sunny when you start, with a possible 25-35 mph wind with a four to five mile fetch you can bet you need a whole lot of clothes options.
My boat, with fishing friends, attached. That was the nice day!
Edited by Almost-B-Good 5/20/2008 8:30 PM
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Member
Posts: 1040
Location: Stevens Point, WI | I suppose you can't put your kicker on the starboard side can you? Mine leans a bit to the port side also, but will be putting a 9.9 Merc on the starboad side so that should even things out nicely. | |
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Posts: 1991
| Yes I agree can you move your kicker to the other side, I tried mine on both sides and the starboard side works better | |
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| my kicker came setting on the starboard (right) side but when i rigged it i moved it to the the port (left) side; i experienced the same as you: the left lean when trimmed down was pretty significant and made the ride pretty rough until it got wide open when it leveled out.
when i moved the kicker back to the starboard (right) side, the ride became flat level. she handles like a dream from start to finish, i can run practically hands-free when cruising between 30-50mph.
i don't think your trim sensitivity is a weight distribution issue. just like you, i've got a lot of weight in the back of my X190 with the 200 Opti, kicker motor, 2 big guys, tacklebox, rear deck extension, planos full of lures under the deck, extra oil, etc. i've had no trim sensitivity or porpoising whatsoever.
i think you're probably on track with looking to get the right prop. it sounds like you need something that'll spin up the right amount of rpms and give you some additional lift. i experienced some of those same issues at first with my 1890 last year, and switching props made all the difference in the world...i'm guessing that once you get the right one paired up with your rig/motor combo it'll resolve most everything for you.
good luck, i'm playing a bit with props myself right now trying to squeeze a couple more mphs out of my Opti.
have fun!
Edited by lambeau 5/20/2008 9:22 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Another recommendation to move the kicker to the starboard side. It'll make a huge difference for you. I don't know enough about Bombardier props to tell you what to look for, but a small hub 4 blade should run well on that motor. I'm ordering one next week, and will be running a 175 XS on the rig. Reports to follow when I get her on the water. The porpoising is almost certainly a prop issue. | |
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Posts: 102
| Moving the kicker is not an option. I had enough of kicker starboard on my last boat early on and made it perfectly clear port was the place it was going to be when they rigged it. I don't want to be sitting on the gunnel to troll or bashing my hand on the big motor on hard turns. My primary fishing is for muskies and when I run the rock structures in Canada I do some pretty violent steering moves at near full throttle on the kicker. I've done it both ways and for me, port is the way to go.
I had my one friend sitting directly behind me on the livewell cover so the boat sat absolutely level at rest. It still torqued cockeyed when trimmed down.
What would happen if the motor was raised up from the second hole from the top to the third of four holes or to the fourth hole? Anyone try these positions? What about going down to the top hole? Is it the torque from the powerhead that causes the lean or is it from the prop? If it is the powerhead then the higher you go the worse it would be, right? Conversely, if it was the prop then the lower you set it the worse it would be?
The Cyclone prop is 14 1/8 X 23 so it has a fairly good diameter. I was toying with the idea of drilling vent holes in it if I can't exchange it. It has noticeable cup to the blades, and I had read somewhere that you could reduce the cup on the edge and gain some rpms so that might be an option also. | |
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Posts: 1040
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Well it's going to be tough trying to get that boat to level out without moving that kicker to the starboard side. You have an extra 100lbs sitting on the port side. With your oil reserve on the left side, your starting battery on the left side and your kicker, that's a lot of extra weight on the port side.
You mention you do a lot of hard turns, I know by using the handle on kicker your able to turn quicker, however, have you thought about trying a connecting rod from the Etech to your kicker? That way your steering with your steering wheel and not your kicker handle. Another idea, you could also put an extention on the kicker handle and that will eliminate banging your hand against your main engine. Just a few ideas for you. | |
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Posts: 102
| Thought about those things, but it isn't as good as your hand on the tiller. No way you can steer as fast with a wheel and keep the speed where you want it. Heck, I'm even ticked off the 9.9 doesn't have the balls the older Evinrude 15 four stroke had and that one wasn't as good as the even older Evinrude 2 stroke for top end. Heard Merc is coming out with a 15HP Pro Kicker in Jan next year. Might be a trade in the future if this 9.9 doesn't get the job done. But I'll have to get back up to Canada to try it out first. | |
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Posts: 1040
Location: Stevens Point, WI | I agree, you can't turn as fast with the connecting rod from your main engine to your kicker, I was just trying to suggest other options. But I will say, I don't think comparing a 9.9 to a 15 is a good comparision. Of course the 15 will have more balls. And yes, Mercury is coming out with a 15HP Pro Kicker. Got to see one up close this past weekend at the PWT Championship. Here is a pic. But I think if you want to get that boat leveled out, you'd be really smart by looking at possible moving that kicker to the other side. That will make a big difference! But just a suggestion.
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Posts: 1040
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Here is the link about the 15hp Pro Kicker. Mercury says the motor is ready for immediate order.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/newsandevents/newsdetail.php?ID=57 | |
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| 15hp Pro Kicker? nice!
i use a handle extension on my kicker that telescopes to 50" long and has a U-ball joint for full range of motion.
i can control my starboard mounted kicker turning it through the full range of motion and adjust the throttle easily and precisely. plus i can sit in the seat on the rear deck from where i can watch my sonar on the console and tend to my lines at the same time. it's worth considering.
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| here's a link to the handle extension i use when trolling for muskies.
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?sto...
i really really like being able to run a tiller "hands on" while still sitting/standing up and away from the motors. i get access to the full range of motion of the motor, even on the starboard side with the throttle on the inside towards the big motor.
Edited by lambeau 5/21/2008 9:12 PM
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Member
Posts: 102
| Neat! That might work for me too. Now the only question I have is when you mount the kicker on the starboard side and you are alone in the boat is it overload to starboard? And if not why not? My last boat was horribly over loaded to starboard with the kicker on that side and driving on the trailer was darn near impossible if you want to be straight.
Plus I have the kicker bolted through the transom already and would rather not move it, but if that is the answer then moving it will have to be considered. | |
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Posts: 1040
Location: Stevens Point, WI | If you load all your tackle and everything to the starboard side where your kicker is then yes, it will list to the right and make it look like your overloaded. However, if you try to counter the weight and put tackle boxes and everything to the port side then you shouldn't see much of a problem. Put all the lighter equipment to the starboard side and your should be good. Also, how often are you running the boat from the back of the boat by yourself? Other than driving, your probably up front running the boat from the bowmount trolling motor. With a boat like this, shifting items in your boat around to get the correct weight distribution is key. You have a high performance hull, this isn't an aluminum hull. It really take a little time to get use to the boat and learning how to get the best performance out the boat. But once this is achieved, the boat will really be like no other boat you've driven.
As for loading on the trailer. You can put all your weight on the starboard side and you won't have an issue. With the bunk trailer, if you get it just somewhat lined up, she'll slide on dead center every time. My dad is a bigger guy and when he's in the boat by himself, the boat leans a little to the starboard side, however, that boat goes on straight everytime. You won't have a problem with that at all. Like I said, once you get to use the boat a little more, you will see these things. It just takes time. Give it some time and learn the boat and you will be really surprised just how awesome these rigs are.
Edited by Merckid 5/21/2008 11:14 PM
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Posts: 1991
| Yep, you will find that it does list to the starboard side when you are by yourself, just balence your load in the boat, I carry all my tackle on the port bow locker, works quite well.
Also as far as loading straight as arrow everytime.
You have to remember you are dealing with pad type hull, it is more of a perfarmance type boat vs your Alumacraft deep V which did not have a pad, so balencing is more critical.
A couple weeks ago I brought a guy with he had a tackle box that had to go 75#! I set it in front of the starboard console and it thru the balence of a bit, moved it to the port perfect, so you need to be aware of the load.
I still cant believe how this thing goes thru the waves, I go out in stuff that would have beat me to death in my Lund Mr Pike.
BTW I have a 1890 | |
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Member
Posts: 1991
| BTW I read where you hit your hand in the big motor, never have had that problem, I also have a ext handle like above.
You could unbolt the kicker and try it with out drilling new holes on the starboard side, just temp plug the holes on the port side. When I got my boat we hung the kicker without bolting it on, we started on the port and quickly realized the torque caused it to list, so starboard it went.
Also a 4 blade does make a difference. | |
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Member
Posts: 102
| That happened with the old rig, because I ran the kicker with the big motor completely or almost completely up to get rid of drag. I usually troll at 4.5 to 5.5 mph when I'm on structure with bucktails and tight action cranks as opposed to running wider wobblers out over deeper water at slower speeds. If you hit the turn hard enough the big motor would flop over and if it went the wrong way it wasn't nice. I wound up taking a bungee cord and securing the wheel to a rod holder to keep it in position. It wasn't like you'd crush your hand but when you needed max turn in a hurry you would bang the handle and your hand.
Still confused about having two heavier guys on the starboard side of the X-190, and a lighter guy and the kicker/battery/oil tank port. The boat even listed a little to starboard at rest but it still torqued port with trim down. Wouldn't that have corrected the problem if weight was the primary factor?
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| in a very basic way of describing it, when the motor is in gear, force is actually exerted in 2 directions:
1) trying to spin the prop clockwise, 2) trying to spin the boat counterclockwise. (it's that "equal and opposite directions" thing from physics.) obviously, you want the first one and not the second one to happen!
when trimmed down the prop is receiving more resistance against it's clockwise spin and thus there's more pressure trying to push the boat in the opposite direction resulting in the lean to the left; when on plane/high speed, the prop isn't getting a lot of resistance so no left lean of the boat.
when the motor's in gear, the forces applied to the boat (counterclockwise/left lean) can be increased or decreased by the weight distribution...ie., it might seem that things are in balance, but when the motor kicks in, the tolerances change and the results are very different. a small amount of weight (kicker motor) can make a big difference.
i don't do anything special with my gear as far as where it's stowed in the boat. i've got heavy gear on both sides because simply putting the kicker on the starboard side was enough to get it where it sits level at rest and runs flat throughout the entire range of acceleration.
also, with the hydraulic steering you shouldn't get any movement or flopping of your big motor when you make turns using the kicker. i keep my big motor trimmed just to the point where the cavitation plate is level; it works as a good steering rudder to help prevent drift from the wind, etc.
Edited by lambeau 5/22/2008 9:48 AM
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Location: Arcadia, WI | ABG,
Just getting back into the States.. Nice looking rig. Thanks for the prop info - still some work to do. Regarding the port lean - been there done that.. I was in the 3rd hole down from the top and it was bad until plane. I had mined lowered to the top hole and this made a big improvement. I did put my kicker behind the wheel, but it didn't matter that much when torqing up and the motor was too high..
Good luck
Rick | |
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Member
Posts: 102
| Thanks for all the info guys! I'll keep trying different setups and post the results as get it right. | |
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