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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Michigan Charter Boat Association
Press Release
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VHS Disease is found in perch
Lake Michigan finding raises alarm for fishery
By PAUL A. SMITH
[email protected]
Posted: June 14, 2008
The deadly fish disease viral hemorrhagic septicemia has been found in Lake Michigan yellow perch, heightening concerns about the plight of the popular native fish and the vulnerability of the Wisconsin sport fishery in general. Great Lakes
"It's not good news, but it's not unexpected," said Randy Schumacher, regional fisheries supervisor in Milwaukee for the Department of Natural Resources. "The real priority now is keeping the virus from getting transferred to inland lakes."
The finding comes a week after VHS was detected in round gobies found dead on beaches in South Milwaukee, the first such finding in southern Lake Michigan. Another in a string of invasive species and diseases transferred into the region from Europe and Asia, VHS causes blood vessels to weaken and hemorrhage, often but not always killing the fish. It is not a threat to human health, according to the DNR.
The disease was first discovered in the Great Lakes in 2005 and has caused large fish kills in New York waters, including thousands of spotted muskies in the St. Lawrence River and walleyes in Conesus Lake, Schumacher said. VHS was detected in Wisconsin waters last year, first in freshwater drum in Lake Winnebago and later in brown trout in Lake Michigan waters near Algoma.
The disease is known to affect more than 30 species of fish, including chinook salmon and rainbow trout. The World Organization of Animal Health has categorized VHS as a transmissible disease with the potential for profound socio-economic consequences.
The spread of VHS casts more uncertainty over the future of the $2.3 billion Wisconsin sport fishery.
"It's really a shame," said Ted Lind of Milwaukee, president of the Wisconsin Council of Sport Fishing Organizations. "What can you do now? All we can do is wait and see how bad the fish are hit."
The latest finding comes days before Monday's opening of the yellow perch sport fishing season on Lake Michigan. The VHS-positive perch were collected June 5 as part of the annual spawning assessment conducted off Milwaukee by the DNR.
The lake's yellow perch population has begun to stabilize after a collapse in the late 1980s and early 1990s that resulted in a 90% to 95% reduction of the popular commercial and sport fish, according to DNR estimates. The commercial fishery was closed in 1996, and sport limits have been drastically cut to protect the remaining perch.
"There goes the farm," said Eric Skindzelewski of Milwaukee, president of Lakeshore Fisherman Sports Club, in reaction to the latest VHS finding. "This is the only recreation we've got, and if the perch go down more, it will be a tragedy."
Citing a decrease in prey fish, biologists have also been concerned about the condition of trout and salmon populations in the lake. Stocking of chinook salmon was reduced in recent years to better balance the predator fish to available prey.
But the average weight of chinook salmon has continued to fall, leading many to wonder if VHS will be the straw that breaks the back of struggling populations of perch and salmon.
Schumacher said it was difficult to predict the impact on Lake Michigan fish.
"Sometimes (VHS) has resulted in massive fish kills, and sometimes it hasn't," he said. "Some fish develop immunity to the virus, so we hope that our populations will be able to withstand it."
What's clear is that the negative effect of the disease will be multiplied if it reaches inland waters and takes a toll on muskies, walleyes and other popular fish. The DNR passed regulations last year that prohibit the transfer of fish between waters in Wisconsin, the most likely means of spreading VHS.
Schumacher said VHS posed no threat to humans and that anglers could continue to fish and eat their catch. Many fish with the virus show no physical sign; others have red blotches and bulging eyes.
However, as always, the DNR advises state residents to not eat fish found dead or decomposing or that appear sick, regardless of cause. Decomposing fish might attract other bacteria harmful to people.
Schumacher said the department would continue to test fish as part of ongoing assessments. But the biggest job, he said, was continuing to educate the public and preventing spread of the disease to inland waters.
"The ball is now in the court of the angler and boater on Lake Michigan to not transfer fish or water inland," said Schumacher, recalling the spread of zebra mussels. "It's illegal to take fish from one lake to another, and it would be a terrible thing to do."
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| Here goes the panic button. I would like to know, though, who eats decomposing fish?
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Location: Rhinelander | The disease is what it is. Some think it's not a big deal. I disagree, so does the scientific community, and it's spreading and showing up across the Great Lakes as it was predicted to. Hopefully the overall impact will be minimal, but that doesn't mean we all should stick our heads in a hole and not pay attention to where the disease is found and what fish have been impacted, or ignore efforts to minimize the spread to inland waters.. | |
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| Sorry but I disagree.....the scientific community is far from agreement on this also. There are many people that see this in a different light. It does not surprise me there were fish found with the virus, just like there are fish found with other viruses...it will always be around, but there are other bodies of water that had VHS detected in the past and it has not re-surfaced. To have articles alway portraying a big dooms day scenario is also putting some heads in the sand. This article is based around the Milwaukee area and they are concerned about the perch in that area, that in no way means it will devastate the entire Lake Michigan perch population...in fact if anyone is willing to open their eyes and look at the past 60 years on this virus they will see there has never been a VHS outbreak that has devastated a wild fish population anywhere in the world. Fishermen and boaters were not the culprits for the virus reaching Winnebago. | |
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| OK Redneck maybe its not the scientific community but it is definately the economic community and anyone that participates in the great sport we call fishing! The plague worried people hundreds of years ago, SARS was more recent as well as many other "diseases/viruses". They had huge economic impacts around the world. I don't disagree with you but am concerned that your take on this is trying to belittle it for those of us that enjoy our sport. All we want to do is spread the word so that everyone can do their best to help prevent this from getting any worse, so if your not going to join us in the fight of educating others please refrain from making light of the situation.
Good Luck
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| Tyee,
I am in no way making light of VHS, what I am doing is keeping reality and history in the subject. The VHS subject has never been about the economic impacts to fishing (unless people complained about the bait fish), it has alway been people yelling the sky is falling and our fish will disapear. (As for SARS, the only reason that had any economic impact is because the governments spent money for something that didn't amount to much, again) I'm not sure why you think I may be one that doesn't like the sport, in fact I fish quite a bit. What bothers me and many others like me is the fact that people are making statments about VHS that just are not true. How can you possibly educate anyone about the subject when you will not accept the facts of history concerning VHS? I ask you...name any lake, river or ocean anywhere in the world that VHS had a long term, devastating impact on any fish population. There are none, and there are places in this world that have had VHS much, much longer than we have.
How can anyone declare themseves to educate anyone when ignoring the the facts on how VHS has acted in the wild for the past 60 years? | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Redneck.
I wish I had your bla'zaa attitude about things, especially if I ever get cancer. And I will continue to post about (good or bad) every single thing I see or read about invasive species that keep coming into our Great Lakes via both Great lakes and foreign freighters ballast water. And continue to pass on info that makes and keeps people informed, aware and even mad concerning this giant roulette wheel we keep spinning with each new ocean delivery to fresh water. You look like a fairly young man in your avatar picture. Being young once myslef I remember that (I'll never die and things will take care of themselves attitude). Here's a few long term reminders below for your viewing pleasure. Notice how the Ballast Water numbers of really environmentally harmful invasive's per each year, gets to be more and more in the last 20 or so. Everybody is intitled to their own opinions of this topic and the many other percieved or real threats to our Great Lakes. I tend to error on the side of science and safety. 
1924 Sphaerium corneum fingernail clam Mollusk Eurasia Lake Ontario drainage Shipping, Ballast Water
1925 Marsilea quadrifolia European water clover Plant Eurasia Lake Ontario drainage Release, deliberate
1926 Enteromorpha intestinalis green alga Benthic Alga Atlantic NA Lake Ontario Release, unintentional
1927 Acentropus niveus aquatic moth Other Invertebrate Eurasia St Lawrence R, Montreal Release, unintentional
1928 Noturus insignis margined madtom Fish Atlantic NA Lake Ontario drainage Canals
1928 Lepomis microlophus redear sunfish Fish southern U.S. Lake Michigan drainage Release, deliberate
1929 Lepomis humilis orange spotted sunfish Fish Mississippi R. Lake Erie drainage Canals
1930 Nymphoides peltata yellow floating heart Plant Eurasia Lake Erie drainage Release, unintentional
1931 Cipangopaludina chinensis malleata Oriental mystery snail Mollusk Asia Niagara River Aquarium release
1932 Najas minor minor naiad Plant Eurasia Lake Erie drainage Release, deliberate
1933 Oncorhynchus kisutch coho salmon Fish Pacific Lake Erie Release, deliberate
1933 Craspedacusta sowerbyi freshwater jellyfish Other Invertebrate Asia Lake Erie drainage Release, unintentional
1934 Lophopodella carteri bryozoan Other Invertebrate Asia Lake Erie Canals
1935 Cabomba caroliniana fanwort Plant Southern U.S. Lake Michigan drainage Aquarium release
1936 Sparganium glomeratum bur reed Plant Eurasia Lake Superior Unknown
1938 Actinocyclus normanii fo. subsalsa diatom Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1938 Diatoma ehrenbergii diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1938 Stephanodiscus binderanus diatom Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1939 Misgurnus anguillicaudatus Oriental weatherfish Fish Asia Lake Huron drainage Release, unintentional
1940 Cipangopaludina japonica Oriental mystery snail Mollusk Asia Lake Erie Release, deliberate
1940 Glyceria maxima reed sweet-grass Plant Eurasia Lake Ontario Release, deliberate
1943 Tanysphyrus lemnae aquatic weevil Other Invertebrate Eurasia Unknown Unknown
1946 Cyclotella pseudostelligera diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1946 Stephanodiscus subtilis diatom Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1950 Oncorhynchus nerka kokanee Fish Pacific NA Lake Ontario drainage Release, deliberate
1950 Cirsium palustre marsh thistle Plant Eurasia Lake Superior Unknown
1950 Potamothrix bedoti oligochaete Annelid Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Unknown
1950 Pluchea odorata var. succulenta salt-marsh fleabane Plant Atlantic NA Lake Ontario drainage Unknown
1950 Phenacobius mirabilis suckermouth minnow Fish Mississippi R. Lake Erie drainage Canals
1950 Morone americana white perch Fish Atlantic NA Lake Ontario Canals
1951 Branchiura sowerbyi oligochaete Annelid Asia Lake Michigan drainage Release, unintentional
1951 Carex acutiformis swamp sedge Plant Eurasia Lake Michigan drainage Unknown
1952 Myriophyllum spicatum Eurasian watermilfoil Plant Eurasia Lake Erie Aquarium release
1952 Potamothrix moldaviensis oligochaete Annelid Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Unknown
1956 Cordylophora caspia hydroid Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake Erie Release, unintentional
1956 Oncorhynchus gorbuscha pink salmon Fish Pacific NA Lake Superior Release, unintentional
1958 Eurytemora affinis calanoid copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Widespread Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1959 Pisidium supinum humpback pea clam Mollusk Europe Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1959 Lasmigona subviridis mussel Mollusk Atlantic NA Lake Ontario drainage Canals
1959 Trapa natans water chestnut Plant Eurasia Lake Ontario drainage Aquarium release
1960 Polygonum caespitosum var. longisetum Bristly Lady's Thumb Plant E. Asia Lake Erie drainage Unknown
1960 Glugea hertwigi protozoan Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Erie Release, unintentional
1962 Thalassiosira weissflogii diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Detroit River Shipping, Ballast Water
1962 Lepisosteus platostomus shortnose gar Fish Mississippi R. Lake Michigan drainage Canals
1963 Skeletonema potamos diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Erie drainage Shipping, Ballast Water
1964 Cyclotella atomus diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1964 Cyclotella cryptica diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1964 Cyclotella woltereki diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1964 Chroodactylon ramosum red alga Benthic Alga Atlantic Ocean Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1964 Bangia atropurpurea red alga Benthic Alga Atlantic NA Lake Erie Shipping
1965 Potamothrix vejdovskyi oligochaete Annelid Ponto-Caspian Lake Erie Shipping? Ballast Water?
1966 Epilobium parviflorum small flowered hairy willow herb Plant Eurasia Lake Michigan drainage Unknown
1966 Eubosmina coregoni waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Eurasia Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1967 Skistodiaptomus pallidus calanoid copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Mississippi R. Lake Ontario Release, unintentional
1968 Dugesia polychroa flatworm Other Invertebrate Europe Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1968 Myxobolus (Myxosoma) cerebralis salmonid whirling disease Other Invertebrate Unknown Lake Erie drainage Release, unintentional
1969 Solidago sempervirens seaside goldenrod Plant Atlantic NA Lake Michigan Release, unintentional
1971 Enneacanthus gloriosus bluespotted sunfish Fish Atlantic NA Lake Ontario drainage Aquarium release
1972 Cyclops strenuus copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Hudson Bay Lake Superior Canals (water diversion)
1972 Hydrocharis morsus-ranae European frogbit Plant Eurasia Lake Ontario Release, unintentional
1973 Skeletonema subsalsum diatom Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1973 Thalassiosira guillardii diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1973 Thalassiosira pseudonana diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Erie drainage Shipping, Ballast Water
1973 Nitocra hibernica harpacticoid copepod Benthic Crustacean Eurasia Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1975 Renibacterium (Corynebacterium) salmoninarum Bacterial Kidney Disease Bacteria Unknown L. Superior Release, unintentional
1975 Lotus corniculatus birdsfoot trefoil Plant Eurasia Lake Superior Release, deliberate
1975 Sphacelaria fluviatilis brown alga Benthic Alga Asia Lake Michigan drainage Aquarium release
1975 Sphacelaria lacustris brown alga Benthic Alga Unknown Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1975 Hymenomonas roseola cocco-lithophorid alga Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Huron Shipping, Ballast Water
1978 Biddulphia laevis diatom Phytoplankton Widespread Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1978 Chaetoceros hohnii diatom Phytoplankton Unknown Lake Huron Shipping, Ballast Water
1978 Thalassiosira lacustris diatom Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1979 Notropis buchanani ghost shiner Fish Mississippi R. Lake St. Clair drainage Bait release
1979 Enteromorpha prolifera green alga Benthic Alga Atlantic NA Lake St. Clair drainage Unknown
1980 Corbicula fluminea Asiatic clam Mollusk E. Asia Lake Erie Aquarium release
1980 Ripistes parasita oligochaete Annelid Eurasia Lake Huron Shipping, Ballast Water
1980 Daphnia galeata galeata waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Eurasia Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1982 Lupinus polyphyllus lupine Plant Eurasia Lake Superior Release, unintentional
1982 Bythotrephes longimanus spiny waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Eurasia Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1983 Nitellopsis obtusa green alga Phytoplankton Eurasia Lake St. Clair Shipping, Ballast Water
1983 Gianius (Phallodrilus) aquaedulcis oligochaete Annelid Europe Niagara River Shipping, Ballast Water
1985 Salmincola lotae copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Eurasia Lake Superior Unknown
1986 Gymnocephalus cernuus Eurasian ruffe Fish Ponto-Caspian Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1986 Apeltes quadracus fourspine stickleback Fish Atlantic NA Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1988 Thalassiosira baltica diatom Phytoplankton Europe Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1988 Argulus japonicus parasitic copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Asia Lake Michigan Aquarium release
1988 Bosmina maritima waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Eurasia Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1988 Dreissena polymorpha zebra mussel Mollusk Ponto-Caspian Lake St. Clair Shipping, Ballast Water
1989 Dreissena bugensis quagga mussel Mollusk Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1989 Scardinius erythrophthalmus rudd Fish Eurasia Lake Ontario Bait release
1990 Neogobius melanostomus round goby Fish Ponto-Caspian St. Clair River Shipping, Ballast Water
1990 Proterorhinus marmoratus tubenose goby Fish Ponto-Caspian St. Clair River Shipping, Ballast Water
1991 Potamopyrgus antipodarum New Zealand mud snail Mollusk Australasia Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Acanthostomum sp. digenean fluke Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Ichthyocotylurus pileatus digenean fluke Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Neascus brevicaudatus digenean fluke Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Trypanosoma acerinae flagellate Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Dactylogyrus amphibothrium monogenetic fluke Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1992 Dactylogyrus hemiamphibothrium monogenetic fluke Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Superior Shipping, Ballast Water
1994 Echinogammarus ischnus amphipod Benthic Crustacean Ponto-Caspian Detroit River/Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1994 Scolex pleuronectis cestode Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake St. Clair Shipping, Ballast Water
1994 Neoergasilus japonicus copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Eastern Asia St. Clair River Unknown
1994 Megacyclops viridis cyclopoid copepod Zooplankton (crustacean) Europe Lake Huron Unknown
1994 Sphaeromyxa sevastopoli mixosporidian Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake St. Clair Shipping, Ballast Water
1995 Alosa aestivalis blueback herring Fish Atlantic NA Lake Ontario Canals
1996 Heteropsyllus nr. nunni harpacticoid copepod Benthic Crustacean Atlantic NA? Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1997 Acineta nitocrae suctorian Other Invertebrate Eurasia Lake Erie Shipping, Ballast Water
1998 Cercopagis pengoi fish-hook waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
1998 Schizopera borutzkyi harpacticoid copepod Benthic Crustacean Ponto-Caspian Lake Michigan Shipping, Ballast Water
1999 Nitocra incerta harpacticoid copepod Benthic Crustacean Ponto-Caspian Detroit River Shipping, Ballast Water
1999 Daphnia lumholtzi waterflea Zooplankton (crustacean) Africa, Australasia Lake Erie Release, unintentional
2000 Heterosporis sp. microsporidian Other Invertebrate Unknown Lake Ontario Unknown
2001 Gammarus tigrinus amphipod Benthic Crustacean Atlantic NA L. Superior (L. Huron in 2002) Shipping, Ballast Water
2001 Rhabdovirus carpio SVC spring viraemia of carp Virus Eurasia Lake Michigan drainage Aquarium release
2001 Psammonobiotus communis testate amoeba Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
2002 Cylindrospermopsis raciborskii cyanobacterium Phytoplankton South America? Lake Michigan drainage Unknown
2002 Ranavirus sp. Largemouth Bass Virus Virus unknown Lake Michigan drainage Release, unintentional
2002 Piscirickettsia cf. salmonis muskie pox Other Invertebrate unknown Lake St. Clair Unknown
2002 Psammonobiotus linearis testate amoeba Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
2002 Psammonobiotus dziwnowi testate amoeba Other Invertebrate Ponto-Caspian? Lake Ontario Shipping, Ballast Water
2003 Enteromorpha flexuosa green alga Benthic Alga Widespread Lake Michigan drainage Shipping
2005 Novirhabdovirus sp. VHS Virus Atlantic NA? Lake Ontario Shipping? Ballast Water?
2006 Hemimysis anomala bloody-red mysid Benthic Crustacean Ponto-Caspian Lake Michigan drainage Shipping, Ballast Water
Edited by walleye express 6/18/2008 12:14 PM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Did VHS kill any of the perch it was found in? Did VHS kill all of those gobies that died, or was it simply detected in the dead fish?
My opinion mirrors that of Redneck. We had fish kills before VHS and we'll continue to have fish kills now that VHS has arrived. We should take reasonable precautions to avoid spreading the disease, but the fears being expressed (worrying about the entire 2.3 billion dollar sport fishery or using the fear of VHS to change fishing regulation on some bodies of water) do not match the reality of the virus as we know it.
Again, for the cheap seats, I am not suggesting we shouldn't take reasonable measures to slow the spread, only that we make sure we don't preach a doom and gloom scenario for the bodies of water that have it. If we don't send the right message with VHS, it could damage the credibility of the potential thread and make it more difficult to convince everyone to follow the simply steps we need to control it. | |
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| Well Walleye,
I'm 42, not exactly young, but you do have quite a list.....now can there be a reference point to any thing on the list that is directly blamed for a long term, devastating effect on fish populations? | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Dan -
Re-read what Redneck posted. Where in that did he say invasives are no big deal and we should do nothing to control them??? | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | I'm sorry if my post answer came off as, or he or you got the impression I seen his post as (no big deal). And I'll say it right now, that some of the invasives in my list may have actually aided in the overall scheme of things concerning the great fishery we're enjoying now on Saginaw Bay. But none on it except Lampreys and VHS are actual fish killers. I guess I just felt slightly offended being put on the same shelf as Chicken Little, when I'm more genuinely concerned about our fisheries then most. But like Steve said. It is what it is.
Edited by walleye express 6/18/2008 12:28 PM
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Location: Berlin | Brad for President!! | |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | I'm with Dan to error on caution. I think I, and many people around the Detroit River and western Erie basin area, have seen the effects of VHS firsthand better than any other anglers in the U.S.. A few years ago, it was muskie floating down the River from VHS. Many in the 40"+ range. I mean MANY!!!! Haven't caught one single muskie since! Not to say that they're gone. There's still plenty, but it had a significant and noticeable impact on the fishery. Next were the shad. You might say no big deal, they're shad. BUT, without the large numbers of shad available the following two falls, the walleye found other areas to feed and it hasn't been the same since. I can comment on the drum VHS kill because that was mostly in the Ohio area. Then, there was a smaller shad kill this year. Who knows what that's going to do.
One thing you posted that seems to be a positive thing is that it does seem like fish around here develop an immunity after the initial kill, with the exception of the shad. I thought for sure I'd see thousands of walleye and bass floating this spring after all the fish caught last year with obvious VHS. Thankfully, I was wrong. But, as noted with the shad, it can still happen. The shad kills were a few years apart, so the walleye and bass aren't in the clear yet.
To shrug it off and error on the side of reckless, is assnine, careless, and plain lazy! As I pointed out, even non-devastating outbreaks do have an affect on the the fishery and tourism. You don't catch fish, you're probably not coming back. Though it may not kill all the fish, the effects can be devastating to a fragile system or tourism industry. | |
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| As we discussed last time RT and I disagreed on this subject, ask Captain Larry Jones and others fishing the eastern Great Lakes what VHS did to the Muskie population after the last outbreak. His guide business is history in the fall where they were fishing huge Muskies...why? because VHS killed the majority of those fish. As long as there is history to that effect, I'll worry about our inland Muskie lakes and rivers...alot. | |
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| Brad, you are right. I never stated invasive were not a problem. In fact I deal with the invasive problem a lot in the cartoons. I have issues with statements on any fish kill such as "There goes the farm" and "The ball is now in the court of the angler and boater" These fish kills have not been constant nor have they been devastating. This VHS scare has gotten to the point that Buffalo Lake had a winter kill of fish but all the residents think the DNR is lying and believe it was VHS...even though the DNR has confirmed winter kill. Caution is fine, but too much can lead to unnecessary panic. | |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | RedNeckTech - 6/18/2008 8:57 PM
Brad, you are right. I never stated invasive were not a problem. In fact I deal with the invasive problem a lot in the cartoons. I have issues with statements on any fish kill such as "There goes the farm" and "The ball is now in the court of the angler and boater" These fish kills have not been constant nor have they been devastating. This VHS scare has gotten to the point that Buffalo Lake had a winter kill of fish but all the residents think the DNR is lying and believe it was VHS...even though the DNR has confirmed winter kill. Caution is fine, but too much can lead to unnecessary panic.
So, as long as it's not "devestating", then anglers should take no precautions? Or no precautions should be legally imposed? If 1/3-1/2 of a man's charter's or local bait shop income is wiped out, that's not devastating? Seems alot more devastating than making you take 10 minutes to wash your livewell out!!! The ball IS in the anglers court. It got here by freighters. Common sense tells you that you won't see a freighter on a 1000 acre lake. Soooooooo, PLEASE tell me how VHS will most likely be transfered there!??? And please tell me how your right to not take precautions outweighs the impact to guides, charters, resorts, baitshops, and local economies? Seems a bit selfish, naive and careless to me. | |
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| Oh give me a break Terroreyes. In the thread that ran a while ago about the new bait laws I was right there pointing out that it was going to put the smaller bait shops out of business! Some said that was the price we must pay to save the fish! "The ball is in the angler's court" comment basically means that if it shows up somewhere else its the angler's or boater's fault. For crying out loud, there are other ways for it to show up including restocking a lake with a batch of minnows that have a few VHS infected ones that didn't show up on the test. Where did I ever say I was not taking precautions? Is this the argument that you use by putting words in mouths you don't agree with?
Don't lecture me about the business side of it, I have been on the industry side from the beginning! I was talking about having a devastating effect on the fish population.
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | It's not the laws that will put the bait shops out of business, that has already been proven by adaptation of the rules by the sates and their actual survival. It's the lack of tourism. I don't dispute your acknowledgement of the problem. It's your take action after the consequences approach that I don't agree with. Your point of view seems to be that if it doesn't wipe out the entire population, then there's no reason for action.
Edited by terroreyes 6/18/2008 9:17 PM
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| My point of view is not "if it doesn't wipe out the entire population, then there's no reason for action" My point of view is VHS has never, in 60 years, had any devastating, long term affect on any body of water so stop presenting it like it could. When this virus first came out it was nick-named the "Fish Ebola" which conjured up memories of the Monkey Ebola virus (which never amounted to anything either). If the Wisconsin DNR would have handled VHS like the Texas DNR handled LMBV I would have no problem. But to constantly, in every article, having a phrase like "VHS could kill a large amount and have a devastating effect on many species of fish" or "the population of Wisconsin fish" when VHS never has since it's discovery, is getting old much less it is not what the last 60 years of history shows. The tourism is hampened much more by the gas prices and over all economy than VHS scare.
Edited by RedNeckTech 6/18/2008 9:48 PM
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| Let's also keep in mind that there was no perch kill, some tested positive. And to quote the offical DNR website about this:
"DNR Fisheries Director Mike Staggs says that no immediate impact from VHS is expected to be seen in yellow perch populations. While VHS can kill fish of all ages, the biggest impact appears to be on very young fish. As a result, it could take several years before any effects show up in the population in decreased reproduction, if they show up at all." | |
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| A quick comment about if all fish in a kill can be blamed on VHS. Here is an example of VHS being blamed for fish kills when the evidence does not totally support the claim. It is from the ScienceDaily (Jul. 25, 2007) issue and it’s about the muskie kill on the St. Lawrence River.
“Researchers at ESF’s Thousand Islands Biological Station on Governor’s Island in the St. Lawrence River believe that viral hemorrhagic septicemia (VHS), a highly contagious illness that has already killed thousands of fish in the river, is the culprit.” - There was no testing, they just assume it was VHS
“In 2005, the researchers came across 25 muskellunge carcasses. In 2006, they found about a dozen. That year, all the dead fish were large females, and tests later showed that several of them died from VHS. One of them was nearly 59 inches long.”
This goes to show that a complete kill can be blamed on VHS when only several out of the dozen dead muskie even test positive for the virus.
Edited by RedNeckTech 6/18/2008 10:51 PM
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| Hmm , I wonder how else it could spread besides boaters. Maybe if 15 inches of rain falls and floods are everywhere. At this point it's pretty much a given that VHS could be in every lake from Winnebago to the Gulf of Mexico considering the flood waters. Our WI laws that were enacted to prevent it's spread were made useless by mother-nature. | |
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| Good point CT. | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | wow , good points all the way around... its evident to me the folks on both sides care a great deal about this issue , it seems that we should support preventitive measures as we all care about or fish populations, there is no argument that people can affect things in nature but at the same time there are many folks that think that the human race or certian folks seem to think we have the abuility to control. history tells us that there are a lot of things that have been around forever, call them by all the names you want over time.. in the last 20 years we have gotten good at identifying these new viruses but are they new or are we just looking threw a better microscope.. one thing is for sure,, the people who think we can stop global warming(or cooling) or stop hurricanes or volcaino's frome erupting are nuts, maybe stopping fish viruses are in that catigory also.. on the other hand when our soldiers got shot in the leg in the old days they either died of infection or we chopped off there whole leg and they servived . things change , some (stop playing GOD) or thinking we can solve everything others feal we can solve anything in time... what borders on rediculus now may be possible in 50 or 100 years.. at the same time viruses are evolving and growing imune to our medications. insects adapt and grow imune to our pestisides.,,( i see a never ending battle with this one... ) i also know people and animals with a certiain dna structure servive and there young do to,, they evolve.. im not saying i believe in fish evolving and growing legs and becomming a human,, im saying in history there is plenty of evidence that supports some populations are less affected than others. this is no different... something could pop up that would wipe out half of the world human population. yet half may servive ,,, to think we can stop the unknown is rediculus but then again the black plague hasent been spotted in the US for a wile.. who knows. either way it wont be solved over night or possibly never.. it will be everywhere and maybe thats not a bad thing, vhs i mean, the more fish exposed , the more that servive (not just die) the ones that servive are the important ones will be around and there young will be born stronger and possibly servive the next VBSB or whatever they decide to name it...... | |
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Location: Berlin | Bradley, did you switch to Decaf?? lol, just messing with ya:) | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | no problem rich,,, my day is full of ups and downs,,, some things are out of our control, thats all, we can do our best but you know,, i like it when the posts go back and fourth,,, guys bicker and take a few shots.. all are good folks,, its fun to find a bit of humor in the stuff, things make me giggle some are silly and you cant help but jump on them.. guys always seem to find time to take a shot at tyee,, lol its kinda a nice way to get threw the day,,, its funny how this thread took off and the back and fourth got heated ,,, VHS the end of the world the next post , its not a big deal, then there is demands for more regulation!, then all of a sudden CT. comes in and says,, hmmm empty your live wells , kill your fish,, dont transfer water? NO he says something Brilliant! Wonder what happens when we get 15 inches of rain and the whole state becomes one big Lake and river system? THEN the thread gets quiet and the wheels are turning in people minds,,, HMMM maybe we humans arent the second comming after all. once again we bow our heads to mother nature in awe. tight lines guys, can you feal the love?
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| Thanks Bradley, wasn't try'n to sound intelligent but being referred to as Brilliant makes my day. Usually only my wife thinks that.
Actually this thread has had a pretty good balance, I think Red makes good points and puts it all in the correct perspective, obviously others think it needs more attention. Now if I wanted to rile people up I would start one about how ridiculous the Sauger program is for Winnebago, kind of like the Elk program. But I'll avoid that topic. | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | WOWEEE CT YOUR WIFE THINKS YOUR BRILLIANT? MINE LOVES ME TO NO AND BUT I COULD WIN THE NOBELL PIECE PRISE CURE CANCER AND INVENT A PILL YOU CAN DROP IN YOUR GAS TANK TO INSTANLY GIVE YOUR GMC 4X4 100MPG ,,, AND MY WIFE WOULDNT USE THE WORD BRILIANT.. common sence you have no doubt, logical too. now about the sauger program.. at least its not our tax dollars working on it. walleys for tommorw is the true reason with the work done to the marshes and the such for our fantabulus walleye population.. if anyone can get this sauger thing to stick i would think it would be them, if they cant i certainly dont think our tax dollars on the state level would get it done.. oh well tight lines .. Brad | |
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| LOL, very good.
I agree, I'm glad it is WFT money that supports it and not my $. Personally I like to eat em, tastes like chicken. Oh well I digress. | |
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| Gloria said it...............First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on
and so you're back
from outer space
I just walked in to find you here
with that sad look upon your face
I should have changed my stupid lock
I should have made you leave your key
If I had known for just one second
you'd be back to bother me...........I WILL SURVIVE
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | gloria , you make me giggle too,,, aaaaaaaaah the sun will come out..... TOmorrow , sweap away the cobwebs and the sorrowwwwwwwww till theres none... just thinking about tomorrowwwww | |
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| What gets my goat on this is that even though I have spent over 165 hrs. in the past 8 months researching the VHS virus, I have talked to over 35 DNR wardens and biologists in seven states, have talked to over 16 editors of fishing magazines and also have talked to an expert in Germany about VHS and I have concluded that VHS is a virus, like any other virus. It will come and go but it won't, and never has, devastated any wild fish populations in the world. And sorry, a 3% muskie kill is squat. But it seems that because I am not a tournament fisherman or a guide that it somehow makes the 35 DNR personnel, 16 editors and 1 German VHS expert irrelevant. But people then boast that the scientific community is behind the side of the worst case scenario when they are far from it!
I am far from naive about this subject. I don't post often on this site, but the subjects I voice my opinions on I know well.
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | I'm really sick of arguing, but from your postings, I'm guessing you didn't research enough and don't know that the virus mutated somewhat and is not the same strain that affected Europe and other areas of the world, so your research isn't exactly proven and valid. Still a guessing game, even to ANY biologist or whomever you spoke to, and I'll still error on the side of caution. We'll have to politely disagree on this one, but I sure don't want to hear you whining or pointing fingers is something devasating does happen.  | |
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| The only things different about the strain over here and the European strain is than the strain here can infect more species and it survives in a little bit colder water....besides that they are basically the same. Now seeming how I never said they were identical I don't know how it is not valid. Please show me one thing I said that is not correct or based from facts of history. The viruses act the same and have the same symptoms and have the same wild mortality rate. Since there is more than a 60 year history of the virus you can look back and get a good guess on what will happen. The brown trout in Germany that were infected built up an anti-virus immunity right away. They monitored the anti-viruses and found out that after four years the virus was gone from the brown trout population, it took several more years for the pike but it still disappeared from the streams and rivers it was found in.
You or anyone else has yet to come up with one virus that has done any devastating, long term affect to a fish population anywhere in the world...and there are a lot of them out there! Dido that to an animal population. You will not see me pointing any fingers because it is Mother Nature. Funny that this thread did not start when the thousands of round gobies that were found dead earlier, but instead you don't have a perch kill and the DNR find some that are carrying the virus while doing routine tests and all panic breaks loose and "there goes the farm".
I you are so concerned about it and want to error on the side of caution then why don't you stop fishing in tournaments. The effects of the virus are exacerbated by stress, and tournaments cause stress to fish, very possibly causing fish with VHS that might be able survive the outbreak to die. I'm not against tournaments but if your concern is that great you would modify all your habits that might affect the outcome.
Even Sea Grant states that VHS is like any other virus including the ones we get, it will come, it will infect, it will kill some and the rest build up immunity! So now you’re going to tell me those 30 universities that have spent money researching this are all liars and don't know what they are talking about either? Is their research not valid? You are thinking I don't care when all I have been saying is STOP BLOWING THIS OUT OF PROPORTION! For crying out loud, there was a large fish kill in a Wisconsin river after a tournament, over 500 bass died and 98 had their tails clipped from being registered in the tournament and many had LMBD, where is your concern over this? Or is walleye and VHS your only worrisome combination?
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | RedNeckTech - 6/18/2008 1:12 PM
Well Walleye,
I'm 42, not exactly young, but you do have quite a list.....now can there be a reference point to any thing on the list that is directly blamed for a long term, devastating effect on fish populations?
OOOOOOOeeeeeeeeee. Man, I'm gone fishing for a day, go to bed early and come back to find what I figured was a thoughtful thread full of melodrama and letters from the dead letter pile of Dear Abby. Remind me if I actually do see the sky falling not to post it here. But I'd like to close by answering RNT last question to me above.
I'll start by saying that every single living thing in any ecosystem is connected. No zooplancton is an Island, too paraphrase a popular book. Every single new thing that comes into an ecosystem pushes or changes the other things in it. And yes there were plenty of fishing things effected and devestated by some of the things on my list. Lets take Zebra Mussels, the easy one first. And I'll use Saginaw Bay as the watershed as I've grown up and fished its waters for 50 years. Saginaw Bay used to be called the Perch Capital of the world. You could catch as many perch as you wanted any time, not only in the Bay but the ditches and dredgcuts that dumped into it. There were no limits. Perch were the first specie to suffer because of the mussels. Perch need all the same things that zebras filter out of the water column to survive from fry to fingerling stage. Their number fell dramatically and put many commercial fishermen and a few perch fishing charter boats out of business. The standing room only piers and docks I fished off when I was a kid are baron of all life now. All those little comunities that got a shot in the arm from this fishery don't have it any longer. But lets continue.
It took yet another invasive we aquired via Ballast water a little longer to get starved out because of the zebra, but our enormous biomass of alewife finally succumb. And when it did the Lake Huron salmon fishery did so with them. No more tourest dollars starting after ice-out in the spring or the best three months in the fall when one tournament after the other in every port and packed Motels and Hotels were the norm. AuGres, Taws City, Oscoda, Harrisville, Rogers City, Mackinaw City, Port Sanilac, Harbor Beach, Grindstone City and Port Austin all look more like ghost towns now during the best fall salmon fishing months. The Lake trout are still doing fine because of yet another invasive called the goby. But we keep dodging this invasive bullet year after year. Tell all these people who have lost everything about the 60 year history of VHS and not to "OVERBLOW" this new threat. It was so much easier when I was young and only cared about my own personal pleasures, needs and not much else. I'm not sure now that I'm any better off or respected any better for speaking out about or caring about everything from our next president to the young men dying to keep us free and safe in foreign lands. But I damn sure know it makes me feel better about doing so. So excuse me and a lot of others for OVERBLOWING this subject as well. Thats all I'll say any further on the subject.
Edited by walleye express 6/20/2008 8:24 AM
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| Dan for VP!!!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Red Neck your research has validity,, your research is well recognized and though you guys go back and fourth the science and logic behind your words give you more credibuility than then the emotional argument.. the emotional arguement is always going to be there because we are talking about something neer and dear to our hearts... the fish population.. i have come to the conclusion that if it wasnt this virus it will be something else,, the fact that we give mother nature a little help with transportation doesnt mean she couldnt have spread these bugs and things by herself eventualy,, i think small exposure to these worldwide and continualy evolving threats isnt nessisarily a bad thing.. though i wouldnt condone helping the spread . its unfortunate that folks wait around to use things like this to advance a political or what they feal is a moral adgenda . anyway keep up the good fight and to the guys who have spent countless hours working on things like this , im thankfull that there are folks with the same sportsmanlike mentality working on this as i have.. as long as we have some sharp minded anglers who take on issues like this and can put up a solid argument with supporting data there is hope that we have some chance and representation from our side of the fence. thank you! dan too. i cant say i would be one to set asside the time and effort to tackle such a project.. shame on us.. i guess...... DAN please let us know where to send the check? running for president is spendy ... ill throw some in the hat for you.. grab the red neck for VP and you guys would be unbeatable .. they wouldnt know what hit them..
Edited by bradley894 6/20/2008 10:19 AM
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| "Saginaw Bay used to be called the Perch Capital of the world. You could catch as many perch as you wanted any time, not only in the Bay but the ditches and dredgcuts that dumped into it. There were no limits. Perch were the first specie to suffer because of the mussels. Perch need all the same things that zebras filter out of the water column to survive from fry to fingerling stage. Their number fell dramatically and put many commercial fishermen and a few perch fishing charter boats out of business. The standing room only piers and docks I fished off when I was a kid are baron of all life now. All those little comunities that got a shot in the arm from this fishery don't have it any longer. But lets continue. "
While the Zebra muscles MAY have been a contributing factor, I would like to see scientific proof that it was the sole reason as you claim. What about poor recruitment and plain overharvesting?
The alewife IS an exotic, Salmon were introduced to resolve that problem. When the numbers were finally in check, they played with stocking numbers to make Salmnoids a viable fishery, not what was best for the ecosystem. When the Ale wife populations were "crashing" a few short years ago on Michigan, there was talk of stocking Alewifes. Again not what's best for the ecosystem, but what was best for some people's pockets.
Greed does more damage, exotics are a great excuse after the greed damage is done. | |
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| terroreyes - 6/17/2008 10:14 PM
It's not the laws that will put the bait shops out of business, that has already been proven by adaptation of the rules by the sates and their actual survival. It's the lack of tourism. I don't dispute your acknowledgement of the problem. It's your take action after the consequences approach that I don't agree with. Your point of view seems to be that if it doesn't wipe out the entire population, then there's no reason for action.
It may not be because of the VHS that the guides are suffering, GAS PRICES might be causing more people to stay home and fish local lakes or shorter trips to closer destinations instead of running to Erie or Canada for that mater. $4.00 Gas can cut into allot of trip plans when your talking several hundred miles.
I still think that we should be a little carefull on this but I think it is also maybe mother natures way of keeping fish populations in check as well. Sure, this was brought here but whos to say that in the long run with fish populations being that large that something wasn't going to happen in ways of fish kill? | |
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| It's not dodging a bullet, it's nature. Isn't it amazing how Mother Nature takes care of it's own problems! Wow! The only time there are major issues is when man steps in to stock a waterway the way he would like it to be or harvest it in the way he thinks it can handle. Labeling everything that comes here that shouldn't be "dodging the bullet" is exactly my point. In order to dodge a bullet the item has to be a bullet in the first place. All the invasive you mentioned earlier have no record of devastating fish anywhere including where they came from. We stock bass, muskie, walleye and other game fish in places where they were not for the sole purpose of our fishing enjoyment and then get upset when Mother Nature says "hold on a minute, this is not right". Gobies end up being a food for other fish, zebra mussels end up cleaning the water and so on. There is no outrage of the DNR killing all fish in a southern lake so they can start over with what they think is best....and all the fish die in the lake when they do that...100% mortality rate. If you keep portraying every fish kill like it is the beginning of the end for fish, soon there will be people getting into government with the attitude that it is too risky to allow anyone to harvest any fish because it will aid in the destruction of the fisheries. When something shows up in the world that is actually having a devastating impact on wild fish, then I will be right on board with worrying about it. But if every time something new shows up and the first reaction is panic, pretty soon in 20 years your grandchildren will be asking you what it was like to be able to fish. You cannot just ignore the history on this. | |
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| Didn't this whole thing start with fish farms over in Europe? I cannot find any articale on a "devisating fish kill in the wild" when it comes to VHS, only large fish kills. And what is a large fish kill? Is it in relation to the over all fish population in the lake or is it more like someone looking at 1000 dead fish and saying"Boy, that is a lot of fish? | |
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| Just to put it in perspective I'll use the muskie kill on Lake St Claire because they think they know how many muskie are in the lake and the guessed how many may have died. If the average musky size in that lake was 30" and you laid them on the ground head to tail you would form a line from downtown Green Bay, WI to Oshkosh, WI following hwy 41 (about 48 miles)....now if you laid the total they think were killed in the outbreak head to tail you would not even make it out of down town Green Bay (about 1.4 miles). Now, is that kill a large size compared to total population or just looking and saying that is a lot of fish? | |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | Now I see where your animosity comes from. LOL FYI, I don't fish tournaments. I just custom paint and make tournament fisherman better. Maybe a charity event for injured troops or such, but that's it.
Though we don't agree, it's good to see that at least you were concerned enough to research it extensively. Like I said, it's just a guessing game for everyone, and as a RECREATIONAL fisherman, I'll still error on the side of caution. And like I and others noted earlier, it doesn't take devestation to have a major impact on a fishery and related businesses. That's my point, not too worried about the doomsday scenario. but I am taking precautions to prevent it. It's not really that much of a burden! The time you spent arguing about it on here, you could have sterilized your livewell 20 times.
Edited by terroreyes 6/20/2008 9:00 PM
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| No animosity here. I just don't fish tournaments, in fact I don't even have a boat anymore...I had operations on my inner ears and it kind of affected my sense of balance. The rocking of a boat or the slightest movement throws me off balance so I don't even try anymore.
I do know what the fear can do to business. But that fear only has one foot in reality. Believe me, if VHS had a track history of doing the damage to wild populations that some keep saying could, might, can happen....I would be a bit more concerned.
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | It's not the fear, it's the reality. The muskie kill here was bad enough to break a few charters, and severly limit others success. There's still lots of muskie around, but many of the trophies died and the population was dramatically affected. Also, many people, no matter what you tell them, aren't going to come to a place to catch fish with rashes, because they're not going to eat them with a rash. Ther's the fear impact. Many, many scenarios of impact from a business standpont beyond regulation.
Edited by terroreyes 6/20/2008 9:44 PM
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| Hey, I agree that it is affecting businesses, but it is not just the VHS. It is the gas prices, the food prices, and the over all economy....and MI is in worse shape than most of the country. People are just not out and about like they used to be. People will always fish for the fish they like rash or no rash. They still fished for perch with the peppering affect of parasites, they still fish for bass with LMBD (very similar to VHS) and they still fish for muskie with muskie pox out there. Another aspect is that many people who start charters, guide services, bait shops may know their stuff when it comes to fishing but they have poor business sense. Many of the business failures are of the owners own fault and they blame it on everything from regulations to President Bush. | |
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| economic impact.....Dan didn't you post the zebra mussel affect on the wastewater treatment plants.......maybe I read it someplace else but they alone have accounted for more than 30 million dollars of expense If I remember correctly. clogging drains and what not. So no it's not just the affect on the fish but the overall business expense of invasives is huge..VHS is in it's infancy and it's going to get worse, maybe not a doomsday senerio in your mind but maybe in others.
Bradley....I want to throw some money in the pot too..... for you as...well Pres and VP have been taken so maybe...... secretary of state......I'm with Rich I gotsta meet this guy.........
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| 30 million vs 4.6 billion.....Charter sport fishing for Salmon. Exotics can provide benefits too. | |
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VHS News flash.