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| Received this today, thoughts?
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The Walleye Angler's Trail Tournament Director has announced that the use of the Willow Cat, as bait, is banned a its final two tournaments of the 2008 season (Lansing, IA & La Crosse, WI).
With the Wisconsin DNR VHS Regulations affecting the harvest of the Mad Tom (Willow Cat) from the Wisconsin waters of the Mississippi River and its tributaries and also its restriction of transporting live fish into Wisconsin to the the listing of the freckled Mad Tom as an endangered species by the Iowa DNR, the director does not want to put its members in jeopardy of violating State Law and or DNR regulation, by allowing its use.
Bill Brosnahan
Tournament Director |
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| Will this have any implications on, or set a precedent for, the FLW League Championship? |
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| I think this is a good move, although I think using the freckled madtom as any part of this argument is nothing more than fluff.
The freckled madtom is easy to tell apart from the willowcat, uses a completely different type of habitat that the willow cat and has only been found in a few small areas in IA, mainly because IA is in the extreme northern end of its traditional range.
Saying that you are going to ban willowcats to save people from possiblly scooping an endangered species it like banning outboards to save people from speeding through no wake zones. It's a total non-issue.
The main issue is availability. Practically speaking, the only legal cats right now are those harvested out of inland MN waters. They are not readily available, and most of the cats being used by anglers are most likely being harvested out of the Mississippi River, although I know people who are actually doing it properly and above-board. It think it's a good way to level the playing field. Some people will argue this statement, but put cats right now in the hands of someone that knows how and where to use them, they have a huge advantage over the rest of the field.
Unfortunately this silly law is preventing anglers to use one of the best and most readily available baits on the Mississippi, and ruining a tradition that has been around since our grandfathers were fishing wing dams with them on wire on the end of a cane pole. The fact that cats cannot be harvested and used in the same water body (i.e. mississippi river, the only place they are ever used) does not make any sense whatsoever. |
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Location: Orland Park, IL | I hate to say this, but its confusing on the FLW league finals side.
We can only buy in MN and use in minnesota. So ok there. Cant bring em in from wisco, so ok there. With the limited # of willow cats available for sale, how are the folks gonna discern between those bought locally and those transported in?
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Location: Chicago IL. | Zach, I have been in contact will Bill on this subject since april. He has had conversations with the dnr of 3 states and it gets really wacky on what you can and cannot do with those critters. You cant harvest them from the river and if you have them in your boat, you cant cross the river, prove that you didnt get them in WI., and not leave the water with them in your boat unless you can prove you didnt let them get in concact with the water. Belive me it had more loopholes than Chicago politics. The only right thing to do is not allow them untill this law gets straitened out. Trust me, I love using those stinging little catfish, but how can you allow them when they will only available to a few anglers according to law. Yes it levels out the field for all. |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | My stance on the League finals is this. The guys in MN will have an enormous advantage because they will and have had access that nodbody from the other 3 states will have. Anybody who has fished Willow cats on a regular basis will tell you that the supply runs low in August/September and the overall size and quality of the cats wil suffer. I'm from WI and only live 40 minutes from Winona, how crappy would it be to have to drive to Winona to buy cats, find a place to keep them in MN, and then drive all the way to Winona to launch my boat every time I wanted to use them.
Now, how about the folks from Michigan, how can they possibly get ahold of enough cats for a 3 day tourney and pre-fishing. My guess is, if they're allowed you'll be paying about $30 per dozen for 1-1/2" willow cats. The folks from IA, IL, and most of WI aren't in any better position. My main stance against Willow cats in tourney fishing is supply availability. If they were legal in WI, and you could launch out of WI, that would change everything.
Allowing cats changes multiple things on a border event. If you use them, you must lodge in MN because you cannot transport them accross state lines. If you use them, you must launch in MN every time you have them with you. If you use them you will need a good supply for 3+ days prefishing and 3 tourney days, I wouldn't have any less than 15-20 dozen (imagine that at tourney prices probably pushing $30.00 a dozen).
I have read statements that using Willow cats is just like using a custom painted crankbait. I'm pretty sure I can paint a crankbait, but I can never turn a fathead into a willow cat. I've also heard it's no different than allowing handlining. I'm also sure that I could handline at any time, but I can't manufacture a Willow cat.
All that said, I like fishing cats, I caught a 29-3/4 on my third cast ever with a cat. I would just hate to see the FLW give three divisions of anglers a huge disadvantage just to satisfy one. WI and MN are doing well now, but Michigan and the Heartland flat out cannot afford to have 30 boaters from each division come back with a bad taste in their mouths. It's up to the FLW to decide if they want to give all the traveling anglers a reason to come back next year or not. |
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| Well said. It should be a FISHING tournament, not a "who can get willowcat" contest. With one simple ruling, they can wipe out a ton of controversy, questions, possible legal infractions, and accusations of wrong doing. I am confident that is what they will do, although they could eliminate alot of those same issues by outlawing cheater lines and they refuse to do that, so who knows.... |
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Location: Orland Park, IL | Yep, I can see them costing a bundle. Man, thats gonna be tough. There are so many 16 inch sauger you can yank out of the channel on leadcore. |
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| So if they are that hard to get that only some of the anglers will be able to get them then should they also make if against the rules to use any rod, reel, line, bait, etc. that isn't readilly available to everyone? No more using products from your sponsors before they are available to the public?
If it's because they are to expensive then should the also make it against the rules to have a boat over say $40,000? I mean by that logic it's just not fair for a guy in a $30,000 boat to compete against a guy in a $50,000 boat.
It would be even simpler if they just banned live bait. That would take care of the Willow Cat issue and also force the walleye tournament guys to get out of there 19th Century mentality that you need to use live bait to catch a walleye. |
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Location: Chicago IL. | Where are you comming from?? You need to start drinking decaf. Read the dnr laws on the subject and all your questions will be answered. |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | That is exactly what I addressed in my previous statement. There is a major diference between having a new rod/reel lure etc... comapred to having a willow cat. To me the issue is more about the FLW allowing something that will hurt 3 of the 4 divisions in order to make 1 happy. The math just doesn't add up.
The MN division allready has a big advantage since many of the participants consider the Mississippi their home water compared to those from Michigan, most of the WI anglers, and most of the Heartland division. Add one more huge advantage in there and you have a recipe for 90 ticked off boaters out of 120. If the FLW is truely concerned about growing all of their divisions, they will do what's best for everybody, not what's best for the minority. |
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| But they will penalize a minority because they know how to use and how to get a bait that is the best for the body of water they are fishing? Locals will always have some advantage because they are able to fish that body of water more and learn tactics that others may not learn.
What if the fish are biting best on a ceratin bait that is not available on the market yet? Should they not be allowed to use it? What if they make the bait themself? |
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| My take is the tournament is launched out of MN, the willow cat is a legal bait in MN, pretty much end of discussion for me, I'd say they should get to use them. |
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Location: Chicago IL. | Guest, There is a big difference from a lure and a live bait. Yes I have custom painted baits that no body else has. As yes I think it gives me a advantage over someone that dont have them. But it is not against the law to transport them across state lines. Anybody can paint there own cranks or have somebody paint there cranks, all you have to do pay for it. Yes I also make my tackel,wich anybody could also make. So to say to ban a custom bait is nonsense. The WAT has 2 tourneys for the end of the year on 2 different pools and launching in 2 states on the same weekend. So for the lansing tourney,unless youy staying in IA. and buy the bait in IA. it will be illeagle to possess them. For the Lacrosse tourney, it will be leagel to have them only if you can prove that you bought them from a bait dealer from WI. that has had them tested for VHS, and not transport them from out of state. And you cannot trap them from the Miss. river. Thats the reason the WAT banned them. The FLW is a whole different story going out of MN. |
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| So do we know if Sonny and the FLW will or will not allow willow cats in the FLW league finals ?
Thanks,
TJM |
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Location: Orland Park, IL | In oconto, he said they would be allowed as a local bait. So they need to be purchased in state. |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | That's fine as long as we know. I have 4 boaters who want me to get cats for them, and I don't want to be stuck with 100 dozen at these crazy prices. Now I guess I just need to rent a storage unit for 2 months to keep them in. Tack on another $100-$200. There's nothing like shelling out an extra $1000+ a month and a half in advance when you don't even know if you're in yet. |
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| John, YOu make decisions as to the tackle you will be using, where you will be staying, etc. based on what you think will allow you to catch the most fish. What difference is there to make a pre-meditated decision to decide where you will stay so that you can keep your willow cats? What they are doing is penalizing a guy who makes the decision to stay at a certain place so that he can use them.
Again a simple solution would be to ban all live bait in these tournaments. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | If willow cats are allowed at the FLW League Championship in Winona I will be very disappointed. As I understand the rules created by the WI DNR, it's illegal to take them from the MN side of the river and use them in WI. This will just open up a huge can of worms, bigger than the one caused by the stupid slider lines on the Tour this year. It would be easiest to govern if they were not allowed........less decisions to make for the tourney director versus the potential of creating a large headache. |
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Location: Appleton wi | Thumper FYI . Sonny has already said that sliders or cheater lines will not be allowed in 2009 season. |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Better get em now. The cheapest I've found is $13 a dozen all the way up to $20 a dozen. Do you think they'll get any cheaper come tournament time? You can also only buy 2 dozen at a time from most dealers. If you want 10-20 dozen, you'd better plan on going to 5-10 different bait shops and paying whatever their prices are. |
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| That's it. I've decided I'm not fishin the Leaque finals this year. Good luck in my spot, Jon O> |
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Location: Chicago IL. | Guest. So the teams that live in WI. will have to rent rooms across the river to use willow cats??? Read my post,,, what do you do about the tourney in lacrosse. The WAT is correct in banning them. If you cannot catch walleyes without them, then I would not get into the tourneys for that weekend. As I said ,read the laws from the WI. DNR and all your questions will be answered. Oh by the way,live bait is only good for mashing in the carpet. I very rarely buy it fishing the river. Now you know my name,,whats yours. |
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| Jerry,
If you would be so kind to call one of the Department of Natural Resources Biologists (Kendall Kampke) in Winnebago County. I am sure Kendall would call and explain to Sonny the laws regarding the transportation of willow cat from Minnesota waters to Wisconsin waters and back to Minnesota waters while prefishing and at tournament time.
Thanks,
TJM |
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| I didn't think they were going to allow willow cats at the championship, at least that is what I heard. They weren't allowed at Moline last year, were they?
I believe they allowed them at the MN league event. However, slightly different circumstances, in my opinion.
90 anglers coming from states where willow cats not available or not allowed. 90 anglers who need to make special arrangements ahead of time to obtain willow cats or risk not being able to get any come tourney time. 90 anglers who won't be allowed to "stockpile" willow cats because of state regulations regarding the transporting and possession of minnows.
30 anglers with (potential based on proximity) access to cats due to state regulations. 30 anglers with the potential to "stockpile" willow cats (I'd bet some of those 30 have already started).
In my opinion this is not an issue about a "secret bait". Willow cats are no secret. Anyone who has used them knows how effective they are. It's not even so much about availabilty, as it is pre-tournament restrictions some of us have to deal with. If someone is killing them on a particular color Salmo Hornet, not avaialble at my local retailer, I can be on the computer or phone and have them shipped to my door in a couple days. I know willow cats work, I know where to buy them, I just have to hope I can get my hands on a few dozen when I get to Winona. I hope that they truly will be available to everyone (although I have my doubts) once that time rolls around, not just a minority. And I hope I can purchase a few dozen without having to mortgage the farm due to inflated tournament pricing.
I'm not anti willow cats. The fact that many of us are not afforded the same opportunity as some of our competitors, well, that doesn't sit well with me.
Just my thoughts and opinions on the issue. Don't persecute me for sharing.
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Well said. That's exactly the point I've been trying to make as well. I hope everybody from the 3 divisions that has a hard time getting ahold of cats express their dissapointment to the FLW and let them know how they feel about it. I would be very upset if I drove 10-12 hours from Michigan just to find out that I couldn't get a major live bait that only the locals can get. |
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| John, If I understand your post the tournament will be launching out of LaCrosse, a Wisconsin city. The people from Minnesota would not be able to bring them in from out of state regardless of whether they got them legally in MN or not. So the only option would be to get them legally from a WI bait dealer and having proof of it and this sounds all but impossible to do. So if the fishermen are doing things legally and not importing them from MN this almost seems like a non-issue. If there is a limited supply of them available from WI bait dealers it sounds like a good time for them to make some money and start a bidding war which can be done via phone or internet.
I don't post my name on the internet. I do not need the grief or ego trip of seeing my name on the internet. Not implying that you put your name on for your ego as I do not know you but many people use there real name to try to build there ego or reputation, I do not need to do that. |
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| thumper - 7/31/2008 10:43 AM
although they could eliminate alot of those same issues by outlawing cheater lines and they refuse to do that, so who knows....
Thumper,
You will not see "stacker" lines allowed after this year. They are going bye-bye.
Sonny announced that at the rules meeting at Cass Lake, back in June.
The FLW has always listened to the anglers, and is always striving to make it better.
You make it sound like they are a stubborn entitiy "refusing" to budge on matters. That just isn't the case.
Juls |
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| From the website it appears the tourney is launched out of Winona on the MN side. |
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| Yes it should be out of Winona |
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| This subject has went around and around on another site. There is a big difference about a Tournament launching out of Minnesota rather than Wisconsin or Iowa when it comes to using Willow cats. Iowa doesn't have any willow cats available localy so in order for anybody to have them at the tournament they would have to transported which is illegal. That was why they were banned in Moline. Wisconsin is VHS crazy even though madtom tadpole (willow cat) is not on the list of VHS infected fish. If Wisconsin bait dealers wanted to go through the troube of having their willow cats certified they would be legal but what bait shop wants to go through that much trouble. In Minnesota you can usually buy willow cats in any bait shop from Lacresent to Redwing. Here in Winona the shops usually get cats in every week this time of year and they don't hold them only for the locals. There wasn't a problem in 2005 getting willow cats in Winona and there shouldn't be one this year. The bait shops in town know they need to have cats on hand for the tournament thats what bring in the business to them. If we dont start to get some rain here willow cats won't even be a factor. If there isn't enough flow on the river the fish move off the dams and will be in the middle of the main channel. For the FLW Championship if you have any questions just call Sonny. |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Tim,
Normally I would agree, but the biggest issue to most of us is that there are not Willow Cats readily available. LaCresent has zero willow cats in stock. The hardware store in Winona told me yesterday that they had about 6 dozen. The bait shop in Winona didn't have many more.
Will the proposed 500 dozen magically appear the week before the tourney? LaCresent hasn't had any for weeks and can't get any cats more than 3/4" long. How many do you have in your stock pile? Can you honestly tell me that the supply you've been seeing locally is enough to serve 120 boats for prefishing and tourney time?
With the low amounts of Willow cats currently in stores, what should make us believe that there will be more in September (when the supply is usually severly dwindling from early summer levels)?
They are great, and I like to use them, but I feel the guys from MI, IA, WI, and IL will get the shaft on this one because I honestly don't believe there will be a reasonable supply. If they're not available for most boaters, how many boaters from these other states will leave with a bad taste in their mouth for the FLW League, the Mississippi River, the Winona area and tourney fishing all together? I'll fish with whatever the FLW allows, but I'm glad I'm not going to be the one that has to answer to all the angry Heartland, Michigan and Wisconsin boaters who spent hundreds or thousands of dollars to come to this tournament and be told that they can't get Willow cats but a few people could.
I'm done posting on this subject because we'll continue to see the same things posted by myself and by the MN boaters. The MN guys will continue to push for this advantage, while the boaters from the other divisions will still want to know how they're going to get them and want some re-assurance that the playing field will be level for all, not just locals. |
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| The Hardware store in Winona is suppost to be getting more cats in on Thursday and Len at West End Bait said they would be going to get some this weekend. I don't have any cats right now I have never had much luck keeping them alive for a long period of time during July and August. This year is different than most with the late spring usually the bait shops can get tons of cats in June but this year they were hard to get then because there wern't any weeds up north where they get them. The last time Len went he had over 100 doz in a day. Even during the FLW Tour championships in Redwing when there were over 200 boats fishing there were still cats available.In my last tournament in Wabasha I had 6 doz awesome cats and caught alot of fish on them but our better fish came on cranks and leeches. Cats aren't the only thing walleyes bite on in the river and they wont be the only bait I use during the championship. |
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| Juls-
I'm a big fan of the FLW. The cheater lines have just been a pet peeve of mine. It seemed so silly to me to have them. I'm glad they are changing it, much less confusion. |
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| Rookie, If the people from the other states want willow cats then they can get over to MN a couple weeks early to try to try to stock up on them or they can try to use there contacts to stock up on them. I don't know MN law but would it be possible for them to come over to MN a week early and to trap them themselves?
These things would cost them more and yes the locals might have an advantage but don't locals always has some advantage? If you are a pro you learn how to deal with these things, if you are a wannabe you use these things as an excuse as to why you didn't win. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Tim and GNWC Rookie,
I have one question: is it illegal to buy willow cats on the MN side and use them on the WI side?
The availability of willow cats will not determine, for me, whether I fish this event or not. I will be there for the final weigh-in, as I am presenting the winning co-angler with the certificate for the new G3 V185F package.
Edited by jerry 8/6/2008 12:58 PM
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| it is not illegal |
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| This continues to go round and round and I guess I will continue to contribute to it. For the most part, I think the guys coming from a long distance have a bigger issue at hand and thats learning the body of water and locating the right fish. Once located, which is the #1 game in the world of tournament fishing, I believe several tactics can be used outside of a willow cat to win this tournament.
GNWC, this local advantage is no different than when these same river guys go to Lake Erie to compete against the local out there that is buddies with all the local charters and gets all the info on location and presentation. That is a huge advantage on a body of water as Erie. In that case, I would say you have to ban that as well if your intent is to ban a totally legal bait for the state of MN. I see no difference.
Tim
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Location: Appleton wi | The viking boys make it sound like that by using willow cats this the only way you know how to catch walleyes? Whats the big deal if you cant use them? Anytime you have to different states invloved in border line laws or rules the tighter restriction should always apply. Do believe some guy on here who names himself"nope" that he knows the law and i wont be target for a ticket? Everyone knows about willow cats(they are not a secret) and how well they have done and not done . Why are you guys comparing this scenio to other baits and lures and new body of waters that has nothing to do with this. How about this one. The wisconsin guys can use 2 rods a person in the boat beacuse they have wisconsin license and the minnasota guys can only use 1 rod per person unless you go buy a wisconsin license. Would you feel that its fair that you have to spend extra money than the wisconsin guys to level the playing field in your own opionon? Now i'm going to sit back and smile as i read more post on this subject!
Edited by eye Lunker 8/7/2008 11:59 AM
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| eye Lunker - 8/7/2008 11:57 AM
The viking boys make it sound like that by using willow cats this the only way you know how to catch walleyes? Whats the big deal if you cant use them? Anytime you have to different states invloved in border line laws or rules the tighter restriction should always apply. Do believe some guy on here who names himself"nope" that he knows the law and i wont be target for a ticket? Everyone knows about willow cats(they are not a secret) and how well they have done and not done . Why are you guys comparing this scenio to other baits and lures and new body of waters that has nothing to do with this. How about this one. The wisconsin guys can use 2 rods a person in the boat beacuse they have wisconsin license and the minnasota guys can only use 1 rod per person unless you go buy a wisconsin license. Would you feel that its fair that you have to spend extra money than the wisconsin guys to level the playing field in your own opionon? Now i'm going to sit back and smile as i read more post on this subject!
I don't even know if your comment is even worthy of a post. First of all the river = 2 rods in MN and 3 rods in WI. Over the past few weeks with the low flow I have caught walleye on a variety of baits including Cats, Chubs, Leeches, Cranks, and Crawlers. Is there a preference ~ maybe? But the reality is once a series of dams are found to be holding fish you can catch them on just about anything. Whatever live bait is used flow is what determines the quantity and quality of fish, not the bait.
P4A |
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| Sick of Willow Cats!
LP |
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Location: Berlin | It sounds pretty simple. Ban them. The Minnesota guys are saying themselves there are many more ways to catch walleyes then just using cats. I guess I don't see the issue here. Is the home field advantage not enough for you guys?? |
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Location: princeton Il. | It doesnt matter to me if they ban them or not I will be there. They are legal bait in Minn. As far as home field advantage I dont buy it. If thats true why on my home water (the Illinois river)everytime there is a Tourn. I stink up the place. Alright maybe I'm just not that good but I'd like to think so. There are a lot of great anglers that have qualified and will be fishing this event and I will bet that there will be some great weights brought in caught on other things other than cats. If I can get some Cats to have then great, if not as it was said before there are other ways to catch them. See you there. |
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| “Every one of my fish came on a willow cat,”
Quote from FLW site regarding how the winner caught all his fish the last time the championship was in Winona. |
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| guest - 8/18/2008 6:04 PM
“Every one of my fish came on a willow cat,”
Quote from FLW site regarding how the winner caught all his fish the last time the championship was in Winona.
Considering he didn't have crawlers or leeches would make that a fair statement. Had he fished w/ leeches or crawlers odds are some walleyes would have bitten those as well. With Chick and Jerowski it is more about knowing the productive wingdams from non and of course any honey holes that have been found over the past 8 decades of Chick/Jerowski family heritage. While we cannot discount the fact both listed are great fisherman a few other locals to the area will without a doubt be swinging for the fence.
Whether live or artifical don't count out the local Rick Nascak - whom has also won the FLW Tour Championship (on artificle) but live bait is also his speciality.
P4A |
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Walleye Anglers Trail Bans Willow Cats as Bait