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| I wont use any more abbreviations!
Anyway, Steve and anyone else who wants the chime in, do you think the Walleye Tournament world will see more or become like the Bass fishing world and going to only artificial bait?
Can you give us some insight and feedback on their their feelings of the artificial only format?
I am sure Berkley loved it. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | For what it's worth, I hope that the FLW picks up the idea of having artificial only tournaments like the PWT did at the Can AM. The time has come to show everyone that we are good enough to use artificial bait only like our BASS brothers & sisters do. - Live bait is a crutch
- Sponsorship is the name of the game. How many live bait sponsors do you see?
- We've come a long way with artificial baits like Gulp Alive (it really works). And we will go further if we embrace artificial only tournaments.
- If you are good enough to enter a tournament, you are good enough to use artificial only.
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Location: Chicago IL. | I would not mind it at all, but I dont think we will see it. | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | My long term fear is that artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more, and the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys, and replace live bait. Doing so, even during limited periods during the year, would disrupt and hurt a bait business and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together. And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows on my Do-Jigger or using one on my dead rod with a Genz Worm during ice fishing season quit yet. I love and use Both Gulp and Power Baits quit effectively, but live bait will always trump artificials IMV.
Edited by walleye express 8/16/2008 7:38 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | walleye express - 8/16/2008 7:31 AM
My long term fear is that artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more, and the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys, and replace live bait. Doing so, even during limited periods during the year, would disrupt and hurt a bait business and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together. And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows on my Do-Jigger or using one on my dead rod with a Genz Worm during ice fishing season quit yet. I love and use Both Gulp and Power Baits quit effectively, but live bait will always trump artificials IMV. artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more
....... and this is bad because?
the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys
......... doesn't seem to be the case with bass tournaments
would disrupt and hurt a bait business
........ or it could help the bait business if they change their business model and sell more artificials.
and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together.
........ has this happened down south to bass fishing? There may be winners and losers but with the spread of VHS this may be a good thing in the long run.
And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows
..... no one is force feeding you if you are not a tournament fisherperson. Plus, the more you use artificials the more confidence you and everyone else will gain in using them.
but live bait will always trump artificials
........ again, the average person can continue using them. For the record, I fished a northern Wisconsin lake in June where I did much better on Gulp Alive than the real thing. There are times when artificials will trump the living stuff.
I believe that artificial only tournaments will stimulate the industry and create interest in the tournament world.
I know people will be reluctant to a major change like this. They always are. I Look forward to constructive responses for and against. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I do not see an artificials only circuit in the future. And, in my opinion, I can't see it as a postive or negative factor to tournament fishing or walleye fishing in general. I don't have any statements or facts to back this up, only my gut feeling.
I also do not see the use of artificials only as a determining factor in the popularity of walleye fishing tournaments In my opinion, we've seen the peak of walleye tournament popularity, given the rising costs in fishing an entire major circuit. I see the future of major walleye tournaments dwindling, with the lion's share of tournament participation going to the weekend and team circuits. And I do not see where the use or restriction of live bait and artificials changing this......it's more of an economically forced issue than a use/ no use for live bait issue.
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Bait business's in my area are BAIT BUSINESS'S. They don't deal with or dispense/sell anything else but live crawlers and minnows. They buy, keep and store crawlers by the millions. They aquire and travel to clients as far away as 100 miles or more that have sportshops that sell tackle and other outdoor gear like Gulp. They depend on these outlets to buy the live crawlers and the minnows they seign, during peak times of the year and keep alive in mamoth tanks with mamoth airators over the summer for the most part. I know I was in the business for 4 years. Whenever I use 3 Gulp instead of 2 dozen crawlers, or 3 power baits instead of 2 dozen shiners I take away their business.
As far as Bass fishing versus walleye fishing, and how bass are fished, it's haunts, likes and dis-likes and what it prefers in forage, lends itself to artificals more then walleyes ever will. Whens the last time you caught a walleye on a Jig and Pig, Big Craw Daddy or a Slugo? Aint the same, the comparison not even close and never will be.
I'm not against artificials and think an all artificial tourney is cool. Hell, I use them successfully myself as mentioned. But like the forage base itself. When one specie shoves it way into the ecosystem, another gets shoved out. I'm not ready for that yet is all.
Edited by walleye express 8/16/2008 9:25 AM
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| How much do live bait companies contribute to the tournaments?
There are times that live bait will outfish artifcials and times it's the other way around. I'm sure there are BASS tournaments that the guys would absalutly kill the bass using live shiners but BASS has determined that it does not look good to be using live bait nor does live bait bring in any sponsorship money.
Getting rid of live bait in walleye tournaments is LONG overdue! | |
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| Your right it is overdue! Live bait does NOTHING good for tournament angling period. It most definately does nothing from an economics point of view for these anglers either, If you have to rely on a few flats of crawlers rather than buying a few more baits, your in the wrong sport.
Bait shops like the ones Dan describes will slowly disapear from our landscape if they can't adapt to the ever increasing concern about invasives. Nationwide there are lakes all over the country that do not allow Live Bait. The time has long past to not have professional anglers looking at the best fishing practices available for the betterment of the fishery.
Bass guys have done it quite successfully. Does it matter that Live bait might put more fish in your boat? NO... it's quality not quantity as we all have the stories of the BIG one that got away! and the stories of the freezer fulls need to become a conversation of remember when!
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | The winner of the Can-Am first-ever tour-level artificial-lure only tournament won with 36.83 after day 2. This was the best 2-day weight on record for a tournament at Wabigoon. The previous mark was 32.06, set in a live-bait event 3 years ago. Guess he did not need live bait? Pro's used various techniques from spinners on bottom bouncers to pitching jigs and vertical jigging to snap jigging and slow death rigs to casting crankbaits. The winner pitched Northland whistler jigs with 5" Berkley leeches and also used a 6" Powerworm. perry Good caught about six 8-plus pounders during practice. he pulled spinners on bottom bouncers to nab his big fish. They key, however, was tying the hooks closer together than usual so when he put on the Berkley PowerBait Power Nightcrawler, it would create a big wobble, a la the slow death presentation popularized by Parsons and fellow Team USA pro Keith Kavajecz. The fourth place finisher casted Rapala X-Raps as well as jigging 3" black shad Berkley Gulp! minnows and 3" pumpkinseed Berkley Gulp! fry. This info was taken from WalleyeFan. They have more interesting techniques listed. Will the average walleye fishwerman stop using live bait .......... absolutely not! Can we all learn from tournaments like this ...... absolutely. I always thought that one of the goals of the national level tournaments was to take walleye fishing to the next level by showing average fishermen how to use new techniques that they may have not tried otherwise? I believe this tournament and others like it ,if we continue on this path, will show all of us how to expand our arsenal of catching techniques. Dan, for the record, my bass buddies have helped me expand my horizons and and use different techniques in new locations. They do this by complaining about all of the walleyes they catch while prefishing or doing tournaments using techniques you mention. I bet these same type of conversations happened when the BASS folks went to artificial only tournaments. I expect many will resist change like this but I really think that it will help the sport in the end. Jerry, I do not see this as the Messiah for all the ailments that we encounter. This will not fix the economy or lower gas prices. It will not give consumers more buying power so they can afford to buy more fishing equipment. But it may just spark more interest in the sport we both love. It may have already caused some people to stop and consider using new techniques. I'm sure that some will read about the techniques used (if the message gets out from the media) and they will consider buying some of the artificials used during the tournament. That's one reason why sponsors continue to endorse people like us. Heck, If I were Berkley, I would have the winner's picture all over the fishing magazines describing how he broke the lake tournament records using their product. Great advertising.
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Location: Rhinelander | Many of the Pros expressed interest in seeing continued Artificial Only Challenge events. | |
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| So if artificials are so much better then why do you guys have to push so hard to mandate it for tournaments?
If the winner of the Pan Am was going to beat out everything natural then why did it have to be deemed an artificial only tournament?
I mean, if fisherman are so smart wouldn't we naturally gravitate towards using the artificials since they are so wonderful and therefore mean more wins?
What are the fake bait companies afraid of, a little competition? Wouldn't they sponser things just as freely if their product did out catch all other baits?
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | CT - 8/18/2008 9:46 AM So if artificials are so much better then why do you guys have to push so hard to mandate it for tournaments? If the winner of the Pan Am was going to beat out everything natural then why did it have to be deemed an artificial only tournament? I mean, if fisherman are so smart wouldn't we naturally gravitate towards using the artificials since they are so wonderful and therefore mean more wins? What are the fake bait companies afraid of, a little competition? Wouldn't they sponser things just as freely if their product did out catch all other baits? CT: I would say that we all have a tendency of using the old methods that we are accustomed to before we try new techniques. Mandating artificials may just push us (as tournament fishermen) away from our comfort zone to try other techniques that can be just as productive. I can recall many instances where we use artificials because they are more productive or more efficient. My fun fishing on Bay De Noc in the fall is all crankbaits. I have caught many 10+ pound walleyes using nothing but artificials. In the spring/fall while fishing big rivers, I have had great success trolling artificial lures using leadcore and/or 3 way rigs. There have also been numerous situations where I have caught more fish using blades, jigging spoons or jigs with powerbaits while others used live bait. This doesn't make me the better fisherman, it just shows (to me anyways) that live bait isn't always the best answer. I believe that tradition or additional confidence in your presentation causes you to use live bait when artificials could be just as productive. If you read the threads from the Lake Erie fishermen you'll see that more and more people are using GULP crawlers and/or spoons to catch their fish. No one forces them to do this, they have just discovered that it works for them. Speaking of "fake" presentations. although real crawlers are alive, are they really a natural food for walleyes? In all honesty, how many walleyes really see a night crawler in the lake? I know that we have all been told that run-offs may cause night crawlers to end up in the lake, but how often does this really happen? We use night crawlers primarily because of their scent. If companies can reproduce the same kind of attractive scent and smell that works for walleyes why not use them? I believe that the answer is tradition or our crutch toward using live bait. I'm not naive to assume that artificials will always outproduce live bait like minnows when techniques like lindy rigging work. But I believe that given the chance or opportunity, tournament fishermen can usually find an acceptable alternative using artificials. Sometime we need to be coaxed into using different techniques. I also believe that having artificial only tournaments will push manufactures into coming up with better products. I see it as a "win-win" for the industry and the fisherman because of the better products that can/will come along. Is fishing with artificial bait for everyone? NO! Many weekend fishermen will continue to use live bait only until national tournaments are given a chance to show them that there are many instances where artificial bait is as good. I'm not suggesting that ALL tournaments go away from live bait. But I still think that everyone would benefit if a national tournament started doing articial tourmnaments only. The only argument that I can see involves those involved with producing/selling live bait. I can see their concern with loss in revenue. I do not have all the answers with their concern but I would be interested in knowing if live bait sales went down in the southern part of the country when bass tournaments went to artificial only.
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Location: Rhinelander | CT,
Sunshine nailed it. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | After reading through Sunshines long post there are a few points that he has seemed to miss. That is, we the fisherman pay to fish these tourneys, not berkley or anyone. When we cash a check, it is our own money we win not berkleys, the directors keep that, and last but not least, we do not work for the bait companies. we work for ourselves. Dont even start the "That is the reason they are not sponsoring events." Crap. I believe that there is a very small percentage of tourney fisherman who believe we are NOT AS GOOD A FISHERMAN as a bass guy.
Been bass fishing lately, well, let me tell ya, they just aint as hard on most days as walleyes.
There are many other personal reasons, however, I will leave it at that. I am sure some of the pros enjoyed a change of pace at the can am, mixing things up is always good. | |
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| Funny I have been saying that walleye tournaments should be artificial only for a couple years and have been getting ripped for it so much that for the last year or so I don't even bring it up anymore. No suddenly it seems to be all the rage to try to get rid of live bait in tournaments.
Like I've said before, real men don't fish with worms! | |
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| Stacker? Directors get all the sponsor money?......Then they need to get more sponsors so the fisherman can enjoy that as well! WHY do the fishermen need to get their own sponsers to help defray costs? We know how much it costs to be a tournament fisherman.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| I repeat, why mandate it, let those that fish decide who is best with whatever legal technique they choose. If occasionally someone wants to run a tourney mandating artifical only fine, I just don't believe it should be the "new norm", or that there is any justification pushing this on people. It won't take very long for the best practice to be utilized for the best weight, nobody will have to coax me into using something much cleaner and cheaper if that's what is working.
I never said crawlers were natural bait for fish, I don't believe that is the issue here.
Lastly, to simply say real men don't use worms is just being ignorant. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Tyee, you will need to explain what in the world you are refeerring. You got me confused. | |
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| The Can-AM was an interesting idea that very well may be copied. I am certain that all the guys I fish with would not be scared off by the idea. Lets see who is the first to try it next year.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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| lol you guys can get into a psssssssssssing match over anything lol,,,,, first of all i for one do not want to see 75 burkly gulp wrappers a day floating past my boat or littering the shoreline. second point! 99%of artificial bait is PLASTIC a patrolium based product and all you tight wadds are going to support the cheep import knock offs from china anyway... lead paint based finish of course... cant wait to put some crappy fake leach on my nice hand crafted wooden slippry float!!!!!!!!!!. IM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE CREATING MORE RULES! what does anyone have against live bait! Bass GUYs only use artificials bla bla bla.. the bass game is a southern game for the most part a very long season,..... the fact that bass fishing is bigger than walleye fishing because of artificials is WACK! that argument is silly. the population in florida alone is larger than the whole walleye midwest alone!!!!!!!!!! of course there going to sell more crap and have a larger following.. lets face it ,, the little walleye world we live in is centerd around 6 states that added up do not compete with california alone... tell all the artificial bait companies out there that i will not use there stuff full time unless i have more faith in there product and i have the free time to experiment more with there stuff... but since i have to go to work all the time to pay my taxes to support all the other silly idias people come up with that there is no real need or demand for ,, i dont have time to go fishing and try all the new stuff... so until you make me im gonna buy my nightcrawlers and leaches and what ever the heck else im allowed to fish with.. | |
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| CT, The worm thing was said in jest although think how profesional one looks on TV when they are hooking a worm on there hook? | |
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| i know they can make bio degradable artificail bait but 99% will be plastic and be floating arourn FORVER , eaten by all spiecies .. talk about leaving a footprint.. if a cercuit comes along and its aritificial only i wouldnt decide to fish it or not because of that rule... if it make sence to fish the cercuit the i will... but just because you would prefer an all artificial tournament because the only thing you know how to do well is pull a crank bait behind a board shouldnt mean you should take away other anglers favorite tactics . i love jigin and riggin , its more fun for me and i feal its more affective 90 % of the time.. also more enjoyable TOO ME! MAYB NOT YOU BUT TO ME.... i spent 10 years as troller and enjoyed those years very much... it got old and i got tired of the hard work it took to keep everything in order and fishing properly... yes i can jig with artificial bait and will admit on some days i caught more and larger fish on artificails than live bait but what does that have to do with anything... I WOULD NOT SELL OUT A WALLEYE CERCUIT TO ARTIFICIAL BAIT ONLY WITHOUT A HEFTY CHECK INVOLVED . IF THE ARTIFICIAL BAIT MANUFACTURERS WANT A MONOPOLY ON THE WALLEYE TOURNAMENT WORLD THEN THEY NEED TO WRITE THE CHECK.... the can am was organized by anglers and supported by a company that has a direct interest in the sales of artificial bait (im sure somewhere along the line a check was written) anyway so be it ... and as long as the anglers participating were ok with it and got something out of it than i am good with it too... BUT>> AS LONG AS ANGLERS ARE FISHING FOR THERE OWN MONEY WITH THERE OWN MONEY , I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ADVERTIZING FREE OR BEING MANDATED TO USE A CERTAIN PRODUCT OR BRAND! | |
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Location: Rhinelander | . I WOULD NOT SELL OUT A WALLEYE CERCUIT TO ARTIFICIAL BAIT ONLY WITHOUT A HEFTY CHECK INVOLVED . IF THE ARTIFICIAL BAIT MANUFACTURERS WANT A MONOPOLY ON THE WALLEYE TOURNAMENT WORLD THEN THEY NEED TO WRITE THE CHECK....
BUT>> AS LONG AS ANGLERS ARE FISHING FOR THERE OWN MONEY WITH THERE OWN MONEY , I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ADVERTIZING FREE OR BEING MANDATED TO USE A CERTAIN PRODUCT OR BRAND!
1) No one 'sold out' anything. This was an artificials only 'challenge', and Berkley sponsored the event. That said, Bio Bait and other brands of the new generation artificials were in use and mentioned onstage. 99% of what was used to jig and rig WAS biodegradable. Crankbaits are not, but that's nothing new. You argument should apply to lead jigs and bottom bouncers, then you might have a good point, but not with the bait the lead is holding down.
2) Believe me, the sponsorship from Berkley and others made the Challenge doable, not the other way around. No sponsors--- no event, and that's a fact. What's the difference if the main sponsor is Berkley or Ranger? Mercury or Evinrude? Until a new model can be developed that pays well enough for the Sponsors to pony up ALL the money, anglers will for the most part 'fish for their own money'. Some FLW Bass events have entry fees as high a $5000.00.
Lots of fish were caught. I fail to see a problem here.
' Through technology exclusive to Berkley®, Gulp!® releases scent 400X more than regular plastic baits. And with all natural ingredients, Gulp! is 100 percent biodegradable—the first bait of its kind.'
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | There is one thing that is showing its face on this thread, THaT IS, there is a black and white line. neither side will see the other. I will bet that there are more on one side than the other though. | |
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| and I repeat again.... There is no problem here, just don't mandate artificials as the wave of the future and impose your will on others. If Berkley thinks they are as good or better than the real thing then don't be afraid to compete against natural bait.
I'm not against fake ones, nor am I only into real ones, like all good men I think they all are good and that is how it should remain!!!!
Hey guest, if I'm collecting a check I don't care what they see on my hook. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Stacker,
I bet the Pros out there would fish a circuit 'either' way, especially if the venue was selected to be "friendly" to the 'artificial only' rule.
The debate here isn't so much about whether an artificial only event would be accepted by the Pros as much as whether each individual.. Pro or No.. answering 'likes' the idea. The Pros and Co Anglers at the Can AM showed how to catch those fish jigging and rigging biodegradable live bait replacements, and I bet the techniques would transfer to quite a few other waters. That said, if one doesn't like the idea...just because it worked at the Can Am won't change the mindset.
Personally, I like the artificial lures only idea when pitting the US best of the best against the Canadian best of the best. Made the event more interesting, and didn't hurt the catch totals at all. Those guys are very good at what they do!
If a circuit implemented the ruling, I'm still on the fence as to how ALL the available Pros would react, but if it's the only game in town so to speak, I bet the events would fill up pretty well.
I see 'messing with tradition' being the largest part of the problem. Am I wrong? | |
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| Steve, I agree.
I seriously think you would get a whole new group of fishermen that would "play the game". Some of the very best fishermen I know, fish almost exclusively artificial. At the same time a couple of those same guys have absolutely no interest at all, fishing tourneys or competitively.
just 2 cents. | |
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| CT said "Hey guest, if I'm collecting a check I don't care what they see on my hook."
Not trying to pick on you in particular as many people have the same thought but this is the kind of mentality that will keep walleye tournaments from ever becoming as big as bass tournaments.
THe cream will rise to the top whether live bait is allowed or not, it's the indian not the arrow that matters! | |
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| guest said - THe cream will rise to the top whether live bait is allowed or not, it's the indian not the arrow that matters!
Exactly, so why mandate one or the other, as I continue to say WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO FORCE THE ISSUE- WHAT IS THE GAIN.
This is so simple why screw with it? Right now you have your choice, if you can beat the others with artificial great, use them all you want, if you can't, well then go home and wait till the next time. It's already hard enough to keep a circuit going (no PWT ring any bells) so lets go ahead and tick off more guys with more limitations. This is like a couple idiots arguing about who can beat who with an arm behind their back and only one leg and then the one wins and the other says double or nothing but now you can only use a row boat and no motors. What is the sense???? | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | sworrall - 8/18/2008 4:03 PM
I see 'messing with tradition' being the largest part of the problem. Am I wrong?
Steve.
It's not about messing with tradition to me Steve. It's about fishing for and catching walleyes that I know are not going to respond as eagerly to impregnated rubber during those finicky times, as they do to the real deal flipping, vibrating, acting, smelling and sending out signals that only real bait can. And about me taking clients out who are not as savvy about casting, jigging or making artificial's look good enough to entice a strike. I've seen a bad cast with live bait entice walleyes out of their comfort zones and to strike the real bait when nothing else would. With that said, I'll challenge any man alive Pro or Novice to go with me on the Tittabawassee River between Thanksgiving and Christmas and out fish me using Gulp or any other artificial while I use real 3 inch Emeralds. After 22 years fishing that river and seeing others using twisters and all types of artificial's, I know they do not get the same results. And I hate to say this, but IMV walleyes and most fish in most of the "under fished" Canadian lakes will eat anything that does not eat them first during their short, plentiful feeding seasons. Doubt my word, leave your stringer of fish tied to the dock or boat over night on one of these lakes. Fished tied in that manner around here would grow old and rot on the stringer before anything would bother them. But this whole argument (Pro or Con) seems overblown to me, and a waste of all our educated time. Each individual decides what works best for him within legal parameters. If he wants to get into a artificial tournament only, he can. But I personally hope live bait is here to stay along side of artificial's.  
Edited by walleye express 8/18/2008 4:47 PM
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| I don't think anybody is trying to force anything down our throats but I do think that artificials would be a step in the right direction, and I would be curious to know if this years Can-am event resulted in a better release rate than other events at this time of year up there? Tie that "public perception" into our nations ever growing concern of invasives, and artificial only events might just become a bit more attractive to sponsors that are looking to invest in organizations that are doing everything they can to protect our resources! It seems to be working for Bass why wouldn't it work for Walleyes? and maybe the directors could share some of those sponsor dollars! Heck....doesn't Tiger get paid to show up and golf?
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| LOL...Sunsine, all you do is disagree with just about everyone. Many times I have questioned if you fish or even own a boat. I know you don't tournment fish so what do you care!
ss | |
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Location: Rhinelander | ss,
Boy are YOU misinformed. I have taken a fair number of pictures of Sunshine crossing the stage at Weigh In time. If he's on that stage at the events weighing fish he caught, I'd say he's fishing tournaments, wouldn't you?
Dan,
I didn't mean to say this is about most tournaments, guiding or just fishing, it's about 'competition', and stepping that up a notch or two in an event or two a year. | |
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| Sworral, thanks for the clarification.
ss | |
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| tyee I have nothing but respect for you but the point I keep try'n to get through here is that artificials are already available and the companies can do all they want to promote them already, nothing is stopping anyone anywhere from using them exclusively if that is what they want, but apparently all the "artificial only blow hards" on here don't want to compete if others are allowed to use natural bait. What are they afraid of. So until Berkley and others et al start to pony up $100,000.00 events like some sponsors for BASS do then I don't think it's worth it to me to be limited since it's me who is paying the entry fee. How many PWT guys do you think are using artificials on the Wolf in April? Could they, I suppose but why make them. The way to show case walleye tourneys is by having big baskets of fish for people to oooh and aaah about, and that means using whatever is working best at the time. | |
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| thats the real question,? why does anyone care? tyee and sunshine , i love you guys but what exactly is this "STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?" is that code for something? i hear it a lot with politiacal speak... you guys are a well rounded bunch,, and look with out berkly's support and sponsorship the can am woulnt have been possible , (TRANSLATION they wrote a check!!!) this is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yes lets all go with artificials for this one tornament no live bate.. cool beans.. maybe some guys learned to like the stuff and will spend more money in the futur putting another tackle bag togather over the winter full of the stuff..... BUT in a few weeks there will be an mws tournament on the bay, if you think im going to be fishing with artifical bait over live bait before i figure out what i think will work the best for that day your on something! and i would pre-fer to have the choice.. CRANK baits , pLastics, live bait or rabbit terds on a stick with a hook in it... the angler that puts togather the best program on location , presentation boat controle and yes BAIT will win!!!!!!!!!!!! why are you guys so sold on those bass guys are doing it why dont we.... WERE NOT BASS FISHERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOST OF THEM DONT USE A NET DO YOU WANT ME TO JAM MY THUMB INTO A 9 LB WALLEYE ON THE BAY IN A FEW WEEKS CAUSE THE BASS GUYS DO IT? i love you guys but whats the real deal? is it the spread of vhs? is it that live bait spreads the emerald ash boar or something? do you HATE YOUR LOCAL BAIT SHOP OWNER? WHAT GIVES? | |
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| CT, I think it's about public image, not sponsorship $'s or being fair. The general fishing public sees these people fishing the tournaments as pros, and in there mind pros don't use live bait. The bass guys don't, the musky guys don't, why do the walleye guys need the live bait crutch? | |
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| guest, all I can say is you don't have a clue. The public couldn't care less what bait I used, there is no public perception problem, have you never watched PWT or FLW Walleye on TV or In Fisherman, they always show walleyes being caught on natural bait. If perception was a problem I don't think some of the biggest walleye tourneys ever would be on TV showing that nasty ole pro hooking that poor little wormy on his big mean pole. Oh and watching Pete Mania catching huge muskies on suckers is always a good show, can you say slob o saurus rex
which reminds me I saw Jimmy Houston catching many bass on live bait under balloons on his show, hmm he sure does have a perception problem don't he. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I really can't believe the amount of replies to this thread. I also cannot believe this is a hotbed issue.
My opinion: as long as the rules are the same for all I'm fine with it, whether we are allowed to use live bait or not. I still can't agree with those trying to make a point that this would raise the level of anything in walleye tournament fishing.
There seems to be many more important issues than this, just my opinion......payouts, participation, making it affordable, leveling the playing field, number of days of a tourney, number of lines, horsepower allowed, use of guides, networking, and co-anglers/no co-anglers just to name a few. | |
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| CT, where do you want me to send the check? hehe....but guest is right WDNR has some interesting numbers you might want to look at about our sport of fishing and competative angling. Who knows how much money Berkley throws at Bass vs. Walleye?
Live bait has been proven to increase mortality in many species even walleyes I believe there was a study in MN in recent years, Bass learned this years ago and you'd be hard pressed to find a Musky tourney angler using live bait. They may not even allow it, but others could tell us more as I'm no expert. This isn't about your "right" to use any legal means. This is really about public perception and what may be better for the resource. We all know that tournament angling has been taking many shots in recent years for many reasons. In order to gain more popularity and grow we have to get by those obstacles. It also is not about weather you can catch fish better one way or the other. Bass and Musky guys are prevented from competing during the spawn as the seasons are closed, someday Walleye will get there too, so I wouldn't be too concerned about April toruneys on the Wolf, Nor would I be concerned about big limits of huge fish on the stage as this has proven to be more of a negative perception to somein our sport. Lets face it we won't grow until we find new ways or accept the ways of others that are succesful already and their methods...If you build it they will come......
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/18/2008 8:41 PM
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| I did many Musky tourneys in the 90's and they essentially are all artificial, so how come the Musky Tourneys have not grown in popularity. If it is as simple as being all artificial the Musky circuits should be only second to BASS. The reason is simple, nothing to see on stage. Who wants to sit and see 60 % zeros in a tourney. Obviously a little more to it than that w/regards to catching Musky and releasing and so forth but if it was as simple as artificial vs natural then Musky tourneys are way ahead of the game. I still say people love seeing the guy on stage hoisting big bass in each hand, every one going ga ga when they lift them out of their bags, yep that is big TV and that is where the revenue comes from. When I watch that at home I don't think hmmm I wonder if he used a worm or not.
Tyee, how bout you just pay for a weekend trip up to Sturgeon Bay for me | |
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Location: Rhinelander | CT,
Muskie events are not as wide spread because there are WAY fewer Muskie anglers than Bass. there are fewer Walleye anglers than Bass, too.
Muskie events are 'no live bait' for conservation reasons mostly, even though new 'quick strike' rigs pretty much eliminate most post angling mortality from using suckers if used correctly; that's the rub. Actually, artificials only has become a tradition in the Muskie tournament world. | |
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| Sworall: Exactly, and that is one of my points, there is sooooooooooooo much more to why one type of fishing is more popular than the other, IMO limiting walleye tourneys to a certain type of bait is just that "limiting" and will not prove to provide a boost in numbers, $, or popularity. Having something for the novelty of it or if some sponser wants to run their own is fine, actually very good, but I think it is wrong to try to make this the new way and profess it to be something it is not. If Berkley or whoever wants to run their own circuit more power to them and the limits they impose. I guess we could take this as far as saying then no sonar, or GPS, or fish cameras, no nets, no pre-fishing as they are all "crutches" also.
I still see no good arguement as to why it has to be only artificial if in fact they are so much better than natural then what's the problem, what are they afraid of from the little nightcrawler. | |
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| If tournaments start to change to Artificial Only, that does not mean the weekend angler is going to lose your livebait. You can still go catch all the smallies you want on leeches right now, the bass guys just don't do it. Just relax and embrace change. Bait dealers will be fine and we may all learn to fish walleye a little differenent. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I do hope that people do not assume that everyone wants artificial only in tourneys because of the 4-5 that are telling us on this thread it is the way to go? Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but I see that when the live bait guys give there, they are wrong as they are told by some here. | |
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| well it makes for good conversation anyway, gives us a reason to check in on the site more often. i would love to build the ultimate kettle of chili and have a good old fashon picknic in the park somewhere on the shores of lake winnibago or the bay after a morning of fishing(bait or your choice) one thing is for sure! i will be using real 100% grade a Beef in the chili , until berkly or somone comes up with something else that will get the boys off the couch ill stick to the good old bait mother nature intended me to use... big pot of pork n bean flavored gulp panfish mini marshmellows (NOT) maybe some rubber johnsonvilles ,,,,,, heck i wont even buy the pre-cooked... i can see the stance tyee is taking ,, forgot that he was an avid musky guy,,,,,,, those gators rolling around on the bottom spending the time to take in a 15 inch sucker , ya i can see his point there in tournaments, and mortality.. i guess a slip bobber rig in the guts of a walleye could mean the same fate but we are dealing with milions of walleyes and plenty of food pantrys to feed if it ever gets that bad... oh were going to need some fire cooked sweet corn too .......... anybody actualy game this year for an outing or is it all talk again this year? | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I would like to see a circuit try it out, but definitely not all circuits. I don’t truly believe that going all artificial would make a bit of difference as far a public opinion goes. Would it be easier for tourney directors? Sure it would, that’s one less thing that they would have to worry about, but 95% of the time it’s not a problem anyway (with the exception of events like the League Championship this year).
It could open up some new sponsorship opportunities, but I think it will be pretty limited. If you think about the assortment of Bass lures out there compared to Walleye lures, (half of the stuff we use is bass tackle anyway) it’s easy to see why the bass tourneys have better sponsorship from lure manufacturers. There are simply more of them.
Another big advantage Bass has is media coverage. You can get magazines that cover the majority of the major bass circuits in one publication versus Walleye magazines which are dedicated to just one circuit. Look at the swim jig phenomenon a few years ago. It’s a lure that’s been around but not that widely used, and it blew up when a few major tournaments were won with that lure.
Maybe there would be more lure impact if there were a publication that covered the FLW (Tour and League), MWC, NTC, formerly PWT, whatever AIM has planned and some others, but as it stands most non-tournament anglers are only getting info from one source if at all.
I agree with Jerry, that the Walleye world has other issues to worry about first. Let’s figure out how we can keep big sponsors happy so we can have decent payouts. Raising entry fees every year isn’t the answer in my opinion. If a tackle company wants to step up and make a real offer for a artificial only circuit, then we should really have this conversation. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Stacker,
No 'wrong' or 'right', just what each angler thinks one way or the other. Today, the accepted norm is live bait AND artificials, tomorrow we will see, based on what the event organizers, anglers, and sponsors want to see. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sworrall - 8/19/2008 3:03 PM
Stacker,
No 'wrong' or 'right', just what each angler thinks one way or the other. Today, the accepted norm is live bait AND artificials, tomorrow we will see, based on what the event organizers, anglers, and sponsors want to see.
Sworrall, you are right, there is no right or wrong when it comes to this discussion, but as I reread the posts it does seem that some are pushing very hard for there side. With nothing more than a platform based on public opinion being reason to change from live bait. You and I both know that the general fishing public has no clue what BASS,PWT,FLW or like stand for or mean.
Today, many competitive fisherman carry a box of favorite plastic, because, well, because you just never know when it will be needed.
A couple tourneys come to mind that I would not have wanted to see the outcome of the amount fish caught if it was artificials only. Fall on the missouri river. july on bay de noc. I am not saying these or any others won't have fish caught, but I can damn sure tell you that audience participation requires fish being brought to the scales. 100 teams and 30 fish dont cut it. | |
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| I gues we will have to find some jet boats and take up Capt. Dan's challenge on the Tittabawassee River:) Dan, you have to learn to be a bit more flexible. All the regulars here know how stuck you are on traditional means of fishing!!!!
This thread is a wild ride with a few nuggets here and there.
I particularily had a chuckle over the knock on Dennis. What these kids come up with.
I predict that someone, somewhere, will have a artifical only walleye tourney next year. Hows that for a solid prediction?
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | The following info was taken from Doc Talk posted on WalleyeFan.com Some interesting reading from some of the Pro's who fished the artificial only tournament............. More artificial-only reax | Tuesday, 19 August 2008 | | The consensus among the pros WalleyeFan spoke with was the that last week's Lake Wabigoon PWT Can-Am Super Pro was an overwhelming success. From the venue to the community support to the Canada vs. USA format to the artificial-lures only rule, it certainly sounds like a tournament of this kind has a future. But with the PWT having already announced its plans to close its doors following this season, what that future will be remains uncertain. Here's what a few pros said about fishing Wabigoon without the benefit of live bait. Tom Backer "I think it would absolutely work in the future. I think it's the wave of the future. As you could see with some of the weights, it doesn't make much difference. I've always had confidence in Gulp and PowerBait. And you can't forget about cranks. I caught fish on those, too." Mark Martin "I think it's an attractive format. I think the next time we do it we should do it in the States. That would add to the Can-Am aspect of it. "It was a good time. It was interesting to fish all artificials and it just shows that it can be done." Geoff Stadnyk "At first, I was skeptical. I thought it'd be a lot tougher but I have a lot of confidence it them now whereas before, I wasn't 100% confident." Tom Kemos "You can fish plastics more erratically on jigs versu live bait and it triggers bites more. Until I find they won't eat that, I'll start with it. I'm no stranger to it. I won the '06 PWT Championship with a Gulp minnow." Perry Good "I think the days of using minnows and redtails are done with all the diseases and VHS around. I'm known more as a live-bait fisherman and I'd hate to see it go. I'm not much a cranker either but I think it'd be good for the bait companies. I fish bass a lot and love to use plastic worms." John Kolinski "I think it'll catch on. I do a lot of jig fishing with plastics anyway. I did some shallow-water cranking this week. I enjoy it. I've been doing it. Are the artificials better than the real thing? No, but it's getting better all the time." |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Jim Ordway - 8/19/2008 4:33 PM
I gues we will have to find some jet boats and take up Capt. Dan's challenge on the Tittabawassee River:) Dan, you have to learn to be a bit more flexible. All the regulars here know how stuck you are on traditional means of fishing!!!!
Jim O
Jim.
You must have missed my Gulp Nippers post. See below. Artificails, like all un-natural fish attractents are like the song, "You gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them". My whole concern is keeping that second, fresh, natural deck of cards in play when and if I feel, need or know I need it. Like on the super clear/super shallow Tittabawassee most of the time. And if you want to accept my challenge, heres the deal. We'll both fish out of my boat and I'll give you the best seat and angle at the best holes. You out fish me with artificials the trips free. I outfish you with those nasty emeralds, you pay double.
Nippers Post.
Had one heck of a plan today. The brother took the day off and we formulated a trolling plan to help each other out. We would start NW of the Black Hole while staying parallel with the 2nd and 3rd ledges/drop-offs along Pinconning and Saganing bars. Brother Dave would stay in 12 to 14 fow and I would stay in 18 to 21 FOW and we would troll within sight of each other and stay in Cell phone communication. I hit pay dirt first with a single fish on an eyeliminator and Capt. Dan spoon harness, both purple in color. Then a long dry spell and Dave worked his way into 16/17 FOW. I finally hit a spot that was full of fish, high and low. Bang we hit a double, both on Rattle Tot's and sliders. Unfortunately, we got lines tangled on the way in and we lost both fish right behind the boat. Spun back around and hit a 4 pounder. Then it started. We had at least 10 rips on the Eyeliminators and #8 Tommy Harris thumpers. I'd reel in, and the tip of the Gulp would be gone. I mean they would rip the rubber bands out of the releases like a salmon might, and nothing. The picture shows 3, but we ended the day with 6 fish in the box. Oh ya, brother dave got notta.
Edited by walleye express 8/19/2008 6:01 PM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Now thats what I am talking about capt. Dan. Ordway, don't turn it down man. hehehe | |
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| Hey Sunshine: Did you expect these guys were going to say this tournament sucked and I will never fish this format again? Of course they dribbled on about how great it was, and because it was artificial only nobody will ever know if some of them may have done better with something natural. It was a great time and it was set up with certain limitations, good for them, but no reason to say it was any better than other methods.
By the way I'm still waiting for anyone to answer my question on why it has to be artificial only, why change when we now have both. Factual answers only please. If there is no advantage for natural bait users, according to the artificial pushers on here, then what's the need for change? You guys will win all the tourneys with the artificials so just leave it alone and win all your $ over us guys that are stuck with our worms. | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | A Public Service Message from the E.S.M.I.A. (Emerald Shiners Missing In Action). Please everyone, boycot the use of live bait. So many of our loved ones have taken that fateful pail ride to the river or lake and have never returned. We can only speculate what happens to them, but have uncovered a picture taken off a local fishing guides web site that gives us a clue too their fate. After some investigation we've identified our poor sister in the picture as Emma, locally known as Emma the Emerald. With the permission of Emma's parents, Earl and Ella, we've chosen Emma as this year poster child. We hope this will encourage everyone who fishes with minnow or a worm to always use a rubber. 
Edited by walleye express 8/20/2008 9:18 AM
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Location: Berlin | CT, I like your arguement. Keep it up as well as yours Dan.
As for the comments made by the pro's, what did you expect them to say?? Think about it.
You guys want to use artificials all the time, go for it. Don't tell me that I have to cause it ain't gonna happen.
You want walleye fishing to be as popular as bass?? Change the earth's climate to be more hospitable to walleye's down south. Change a walleye's behavior to love shallow water only. Change a walleye's DNA so their mouth is as wide as the fish is long. Convince a walleye to jump every time it is hooked. Most importantly, make a walleye eat anything and everything all day long. News flash, walleyes are not bass and they never will be.
If you want to fish all artificials, fish bass. The circuits and tournmanets are everywhere. Lets try to find NEW ways of growing the sport not just copying what BASS does. That stuff works for them because they are BASS.
Jerry hit it right on the head I believe in his predictions for the future of walleye tournaments. The only thing this will do is piss off the live bait users. Some things are better left alone.
Edited by Rich S 8/20/2008 10:48 AM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | I was hoping my last post would show how ironic and weird this thread has become. And I thought the angle I used, especially coming from the inventor of the "Meat Freak" would finally get across the notion that anything that works gets a place in my tackle box. But where the conversation is going reminds me of those Orvis Guys I used to run into on the Pere Marquette river while salmon and steelhead fishing. Orvis rods, reels, waders, hats, line gloves and even trucks dedicated to one product, claiming surpreme quality and authority over all other used. Of course they also came with a supreme price tag and it seemed a supreme/superior attitude for those sporting and using that brand name. None of us want to go any further in that direction in walleye fishing then we already have do we? 
Edited by walleye express 8/20/2008 11:46 AM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Hello, my name is Brad and I use live bait. It's been about 3 weeks since I have used live bait. When the weather is nasty or after cold front conditions, I can not control my urge to use live bait so that I can actually catch a walleye. I am planning on fishing a tournament again this weekend and I know there will be live bait in the boat - I will be tempted, but if the good Lord is with me, I hope to be strong and resist the urge to use livebait again.
On second thought... who really cares? Most of us got started on fishing by hanging a worm under a bobber - the last thing I'm going to do is comdemn that style of fishing when it what most of us started out doing. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Who said anything about this being an exclusive and mandatory thing for all tournaments?
There WILL be future Artificials Only challenge events eventually. Bet on it, the last one went really well. The event will be on water friendly to that concept at the right time of the year, I bet. I bet payouts will be 125% to 150%, too.
You can choose to enter if that option is available to you, or not.
Doesn't mean ALL or even MOST walleye tournaments will be 'no live bait'.
A considerable segment of the Walleye industry is interested in seeing the artificials only/Pro/Co Angler format continue to develop. If the sponsors put up the Jingle for a 125% to 150% payout, and the event promoters do a good job.... We'll all just have to wait and see, I guess.
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Location: Berlin | As long as it is done on the appropriate system, it has a chance but in my opinion this kind of tournament will not last long at all. They had great conditions and a great bite. Had they not, this conversation would not be happening (again, my opinion).
I don't have any problem with the original intent of the thread. I do have a problem with the idea of making all walleye tournaments artificial only or in the thinking that this would somehow benefit the sport. | |
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| I think it would be fun on the right body of water, and allow the walleye world to gradually take it on.
I am a newbie at the tournament thing, but hope to move into the bigger tournaments.
Down here on Pool 4 artificial are huge, Everts artificial selection is huge, I watched a DVD that had Tim Hutchinson and he says he has not used meat for something like 12 yrs, and I have had some success on lakes, for me it is confidence thing, grew up dragging a hunk meat around.
Very interesting hearing everyone take. | |
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| Capt Dan,
Working with you card metaphor, you sure know now to stack the deck. I might as well just send you a check and save the gas money
We might as well have a little fun with this post in that it has pretty much turned on its head.
Capt Jim O | |
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