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| Check out this article on BassFIRST.com
http://bass.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/10.24.2008/1784/Bassin%E2%80...
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| excellent artical !! pretty much sums up what i've been thinking for along time.
thanks for posting it. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | "failing business model that doesn't allow us to have enough money to have a secure life financially "
The quote above perfectly describes the past 25 years for 95 percent of the anglers competing at the highest level. It's been a sham......
No matter what format, media etc. is created by the circuits, the anglers will disappear. Just as they have for the past 25 years.
There is a way! At least to cover the angler's expenses on the top level of competitve "Pro" fishing. No matter how you finish in the tourney! It's time the main players in the industry recognize and admit to reality. Or--live without competitive fishing as a promo/marketing tool and product development tool. It's only matter of time.....
"Dopes"? Looking back.....no doubt. But countless good, hard working people gave it all they had and then some--all the while believing the business model that was sold to them. That effort, investment and sacrifice is commendable, to say the least.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 12:02 PM
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| Great article, Dave.
I came to the reality a few years ago the a full time pro fisherperson enjoys a great lifestyle in their yournger years perhaps, but will pay dearly playing catch up, in their later years. Or will be working the rest of their life, due to no insurance, medical benefits, or retirement plan.
Different strokes for different folks. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Amen Dave,
I have been thinking along those lines for a few years as well. The only "sport" that I can rationally relate to tournament fishing is golf. Golf is the only individual sport that I can think of that doesn’t pay all of its players just to show up. Golf is also a sport that you see the same names at the top over and over again with the lower 90% fighting for one or two spots in the top 10 at any given tournament.
Like fishing, there are tons of guys out there who would love to play golf for a living, and are willing to spend the money to travel and play tournaments trying to work their way up. They even have special schools dedicated to becoming a PGA level golfer (that cost up to six figures).
That being said, anybody going into tournament fishing with plans of being 100% self sufficient off of tournament winnings is probably going to have a rude awakening. Even the top promotional guys have found ways to make money besides what they’re sponsors pay them. Check out their TV shows, Magazines (the Next Bite guys), articles for magazines, managing sporting goods stores (Tom Keenan), owning their own tackle companies Ted Takasaki etc. If you have the dream, great, just be realistic and don’t make your family suffer the financial consequences for something that’s such a long shot.
Be smart, take care of wives and kids first, pay the mortgage, make sure everybody has insurance and food. Once that’s done, if there’s some left over, what the heck, give it a shot. | |
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| For a little comparison the PGA versus the highest paying bass and walleye tours:
50th ranked PGA play Fredrik Jacobson (sp?) has earned year-to-date 1.5 million or so.
The 50th ranked FLW Bass Tour person for 2008 earned through the FLW- Terry Bolton earned 111,000, but that's with a 2nd place at the championship and 75 K. During the regular season he grossed 36,000.
The 50th ranked FLW Walleye Tour person for 2008 earned through the FLW - Joe Okada,$11,767. Heck Pete Harsh only earned $25,016 for the year without including Ranger Cup money.
I did not include Michael Bennett who won a million dollars at the championship this year. Or the half million won by Alton Jones or any other championship winnings. That happens to only a few anglers per year anyway.
For 2008 the average PGA tour golfer has made year-to-date about $850,000 or so on tour.
Of course, none of this reflects the dollars earned from sponsorships which can be tens of millions for pro athletes other than anglers.
Ironically, there are about 50 million anglers in the country while the number of golfers is around 15 million. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | The other thing you can compare is how many of those 50 million fishermen fish Bass, Walleye, Redfish, Kingfish, Salmon, Muskies etc... There's far less specialization in golf than in fishing. Golf is Golf, if we all fished one species where manufacturers could make products for one type of fishing it might be a different game, but what fun would that be.
Boats are different, rods and reels are different as are all of the lures etc... Another big thing that helps golf out is the prestige associated with the sport. The fans of golf can identify with the golfer because they are working at the same things.
Honestly, I could care less when I see Redfish tournaments on TV, and I'm sure that many those guys feel the same way about Walleye tournaments. If we only had one species of fish in the US more people would be interested in what was going on with tournaments because they would all be fishing for the same things and wanting to learn.
My whole point to my rambling is that each type of fishing tournament is targeting one group of the 50 million anglers, and even then they’re only targeting a percentage of that already reduced number. Maybe all golfers don’t watch the PGA, but I would be willing to be that a far higher percentage of golfers know what’s going on in the world of competitive golf than most anglers do in their own “sport”. It’s just something we have to accept, and have to figure out how to use the fan base we have and can gain to increase profitability to the players in the game. | |
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| The big advantage in golf is TV.
Golf on TV................real power nap material there!  | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Good stuff.
But I wonder if the reality of the difference in how PGA golf is viewed versus the FLW etc., is how the two sports are marketed so differently.
The media coverage is very different for fishing versus ALL major league sports. (I'm not talking about the games/tourney themselves) The marketing of competitive fishing is all about fishing and selling fishing products. NOT about the other asepcts of the sport--being the business side, the human interest side of the anglers, the good the bad and the ugly of ALL related activity etc. Major league sports thrive on the WHOLE marketing package each sport offers. Competitive fishing circuits are afraid of that model.....and have failed to grow in the process. Major league sports thrive on controversy. FLW once told me " we don't air our dirty laundry". Who's smarter and bigger? Major League Players contract terms are press releases! Anglers tuck their tails and hide behind confidential agreements. The differences are endless......and the success stories of each sport(fishing versus major league sports) reflect right from wrong in the marketing departments.
Major leauge sports sell the whole story, from every angle, 24/7--that leads to the games. They create fans! NOT focusing on creating consumers. In the process, they create plenty of actual participants/consumers.
The question is--will anyone finally take the lead and follow the marketing models of major league sports? Or will competitive fishing marketers continue to do more of the same?
Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 3:34 PM
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| Steve, How'd ya like to buy my "Jayman's Takin' names and kick walleye azz" T-shirt? I agree you're on spot 100%. I've said the same thing before, but have told by the "wise" that I'm dead wrong. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Excellent post Steve. I agree that the marketing is where tournament fishing lacks. You see sports like Nascar, Golf, Ultimate Fighting and many others having companies line up to advertise and promote their products with them. Those sports have the fan bases so they can effectively advertise sponsors products without forcing them down viewer’s throats like fishing tournaments do. Personally, I get sick of hearing every angler tell how they couldn’t have caught their fish without their certain brand of sunglasses or their such and such sunscreen.
When you’re at a major league weigh in, you really do feel like you’re at a tradeshow more than at an angling event. I don’t remember ever being at a football game where I heard the same product pounded into my head a million times in one game. To me a lot of the blame comes down to the anglers as well. So many anglers are willing to sell their soles for crumbs, there is no need for a company to invest the money in top notch anglers. Wins are nice, but a die hard angler who will travel the country and sell your product for a few shirts and a crankbait are a way better deal. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Here's a prime example of how OUR sport marketing differs from how the big league marketing thinks and works:
In the winter of '98 ( I think), I met with a key person within the PGA event production company. Just to learn and get advice on how fishing tournaments could or should be covered.
It was a few months after Rick Lacourse won the PWT Championship. In the process of explaining the various aspects of how a walleye tourney happens on the water, the gal stopped me and asked " what was the focus of the televised coverage for the Championship?" I explained how Rick and his fast Ranger was able to get down river(Bismark) 50 miles. I explained that he used a Fuzzy Grub on a certain line using a certain rod and on and on I went about the PWT TV show.
But again, she stopped me. She asked " what about the guy who won? What about him? Who is he? What is he? Anything special happening in his life the past year or so?"
I said.....well.....he lost a lot of weight. And he's quite a "character". As she slumped into her chair, she said in disbelief, "everyone in America would have connected to a Pro Walleye Champion IF his weight loss was the lead story. And his character? THAT needed to be right up there as the lead story!"
I relayed that scene (the producer slumped in disblief)to the key media people in the fishing game. It's quite obvious, 10 years later what they thought of my advice.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 4:40 PM
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| I think until the public shows an interest and everyone inside pro fishing realizes that they may need to sacrifice $ for exposure, then this what you will have. Steve has hit the nail on the head. It' can't be just about fishing. You need to include more features. Do interviews with the "legends" of Walleye fishing. No, they don't need to be touring pro's, just guys who have added something to the sport. How about a feature on how boats are built? Who & how are baits designed? IMHO the features shouldn't be limited to just Walleye people. Add in the Muskie guys, add the Crappie guys, add the Bass guys. The public that watches need to be entertained, viewers bring ratings, ratings bring dollars and dollars brings better tournaments.
But don't hold your breath on this thing. Read the message boards and you will see a bunch of egotistical guys just looking out for themselves while thumping their chest proclaiming a love of the sport. | |
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| This is in a response to how general media covers tournament fishing and in particular high-level tournament anglers.
They don't. They truly don't care.
I was covering the 2000 Bassmaster Classic in Chicago and the irony was that the only coverage there was the morning folks looking at it more like a circus coming to town.
There were tens of thousands attending the event in a monster city, but since it happened at Soldier Field when there were 10,000 folks int he audience it looked like a sprinkling of a few people.
The city never promoted the event with any vigor. It was a joke.
I know a lot of you could care less about Chicago, but the reality is there are an absolute ton of anglers within a 40 minute drive of the city who are totally into tournaments. The media looked at it as a distraction for all of us rednecks.
Our radio show focuses on the people, the real people, we don't aimlessly promote product, etc. If its relevant to someones success we discuss it, but we are interested in who these folks are. We promote the anglers, personalities and the folks who make up this nutty business that I've devoted my adult life to. | |
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| I agree with many responses points on the marketing aspect of walleye tournaments. I think the problem is that the target audience isn't (and will likely never be) larger enough to spend much $ on the marketing end. Why put in more than the potential return. I can't disagree that it coud be marketed in a better way.
My other point on tournament walleye fishing (and tourney fishing in general) is that it can't be compared to major pro sports. There are 'quqlifying" events for all major sports starting even at the pee-wee level, high school, and college called organized sports. Those that are truely great at their respective sport tend to move on to the next level. While I played golf at a D1 college and consider myself a good golfer, I am 100% sure I coulld not qualify to play golf at any Professional level. I fish the MWC and consider myself a good fisherman (though I wouldn't consider that I'm in the top 100 or even the top 1000 walleye fishermen in the country) but I can still participate at the higest level of walleye tournament fishing if I chose to, by merely paying the entry fees.
That's the two basic differences between fishing and other major pro sports as I see it.
Tim
Edited by Toolman 10/25/2008 6:00 PM
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Location: Westland, Mich. | ?" I explained how Rick and his fast Ranger was able to get down river(Bismark) 50 miles. I explained that he used a Fuzzy Grub on a certain line using a certain rod and on and on I went about the PWT TV show.
steve:
that's hitting the nail on the head. tournament fishing promotion is all about the product, not the people. sell, sell, sell! how many weekend anglers need $60,000 boats, 2,000 $10 crankbaits or $5,000 worth of electronics? i fished with rick a few years ago and losing weight was never something i knew about before he drew my name and i got to spend some quality time in the left seat. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | A few things to consider:
Walleye Tournaments are relatively new to the Media spotlight, just beginning to get to a level where even local media notices them happening. The original, the Manufacturer's Walleye Circuit (created out of the train wreck that was the Manion Circuit), was about providing a venue for the anglers to promote the sponsors/organizer's products. That model was working, but tough times and a recession or two created a situation where the circuit was sold, and is now owned and operated by a company that basically is a publisher by trade. The MWC was never meant to provide a venue to make a living fishing, although a few enterprising individuals did just that.
The PWT was owned by Al and Ron, and originally was formed to create a new level of competition. In my opinion, the PWT was ALWAYS designed to promote In Fisherman first, the sponsors second, and the Pros third, a model somewhat still in play within the Bass world as well. When In Fish sold to PrimeMedia, the focus changed some, and when sold to Intermedia, again. Owned by a company that is a publisher, and has a cable TV show.
The FLW was originally designed to sell Genmar products as the RCL, the big shift occurring when Genmar sold Lund and Crestliner. Huge parallels here in the Bass world, as Genmar owns Ranger and the FLW, so in a nutshell, that's what the circuits are about. Non competing sponsors are brought into the fold, note G3/Yamaha. The FLW publishes a magazine, and airs a TV show. The focus is more on the Anglers, in my opinion, but the promotional venue is all about the sponsors, of course. Some Anglers consider the FLW an 'owners trail' because of the contingency allowances, and in a limited sense, that's right.
What to do? A shift has already occurred in the business, and you'll see more of that coming. Driven by the absolute paradigm shift from print to electronic media advertising and promotional campaigns, sponsors look carefully at exposure, timing, and impact now in this very tough economy. That, in my opinion, is why In Fish bought Bass Fan, and opened Walleye Fan to compete with us.
Bang for the buck is critical right now, more so than in the last 30 years. Reallocation of dollars into programs with instant impact, and moving some of the money from advertising to contingency with the intent of attracting the press to that move and using the sponsors own promotional machine is now more common than just a couple years ago.
Bass is where it is today because of ESPN. It's a natural fit for them, everything is in place on the web and on TV, they OWN the joint. The fact ESPN is the leading authority on sports reporting in general certainly helps; allocation of dollars across the spectrum from ESPN gets the job done better than other media can, sheer dollar and position power in this case. FLW is chasing that hard, and is not, IMHO, making the headway they expected to as of this date, hence the shift in dollars from Redfish and Kingfish to Bass, opening the college level circuit, etc. Interestingly, Lindner Media shoots and produces a considerable amount of the FLW footage.
The only parallel in Pro Sports is golfing, and in a sense, bowling. Golfing is a world wide sport, and as mentioned above, is consistent to every corner of the globe. Bass are where they are, so right out of the chute, there are regional limits. Walleye are restricted even more, unless we look at Zander.
The PGA is the center piece for Pro Golf, so maybe AIM has the right idea! Most other Pro Sports are basically team events, and the teams are owned and operated by folks who run them as a business, a completely different deal, IMHO.
As far as the Pros talking about their sponsors onstage, that's because they are offered an opportunity to do so. Every single Pro who weighs in a fish has a moment onstage, and uses that moment as he/she sees fit. Since we see the entire weigh in, you will see several Pros talk about and thank their sponsors. Where else are they to do that? The circuits won't do it for them unless that company is a MAJOR sponsor.
I agree with Mr. Fellegy, times are changing and the need is there for the business for the circuits to change accordingly.
That said, each Pro enters each event 'Eyes Wide Open' so to speak, so it should be no surprise what the return might be, IF due diligence is done.
Some Pros are better at marketing the 'product that is their image' than others, as it is in any venture.The issue at hand is simple; there isn't enough sponsorship money endemic and non in the Walleye, Bass, or Muskie fishing businesses to accommodate all the Pros as they might expect if they were top of the top Golfers. Why? My opinion is there are too few Pros, too small a payout, too regional as a venue (see above), and the events are too limited in coverage and media hype as a result; so Fans have to find what Media coverage they can. The more the better, even marginal coverage gets some attention and draws more folks to coverage that isn't.
BASS is the biggest and best, and still pales in comparison to the promotional machine some of the PGA events fire up. BASS and their sponsors are still engineering ways to make the Classic a spectator sport event, something Professional fishing has failed to do over the years. As Stacker has said over and over, Fan Base is the engine that pushes that bus, and it's up to the Media working with the Sponsors and the organizers to help create a strong base.
Manufacturers and the non Endemics will go where the action is to partner up. Here's to the growth, changes, and excitement Pro Angling SHOULD bring to the public. We hope to be a small part of that as all of us move into the 2009 Tournament season and beyond.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Dave Landahl, thanks for kicking tournament walleye anglers, at every level in every state, right in the coin purse. That article will take guys, who had dreams of entering, and you just single handedly crushed them. It will stop many that were to enter, they will decide not to. It will slow the sales of boats and the tackle industries will feel the lack of impact as well. I cannot believe that a person like you would write such jibberish. Do you want this sport to die? Do You even realize what you just said?
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| Stacker,
I love the tournament game. I want it to thrive and the anglers and fishing and boating industry along with it.
Yes, I realize what I wrote.
The truth.
Edited by Fishing Fanatics 10/27/2008 6:37 PM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | You're right Stacker! The truth WILL hurt. (even if you spell "Gibberish" right lol)
Now instead "blaming" someone who speaks to reality, become a part of a solution that actually works. A solution that creates a scenario that EVERY aspect of the sport can thrive on and actually live with. YOU, of all people know what reality is. I know you do.....
I won't post on this anymore here..... but anyone that wants to discuss/debate this subject with me can and should feel free to call me. 651-270-3383
NO ONE wants this more than me, to be a great, profitable sport for EVERY aspect of the industry. I said "EVERY aspect of the industry". "EVERY"! Get it? "EVERY".....
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| Anyone named Dave always speaks the truth. If that article "crushed your dreams", you were doomed anyway.
Dave | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The short term effects that "That mans truth" will have on the number of entrants will be countable. I promise you that. The truth of the matter is, there are some guys who are making a living in this industry. That is fact. The truth is, that many many business' fail within 3 years of start up in any field, and there is Nothing different in this industry. The truth is Dave decided to paint the gloomist picture he could about this sport. He even seemed to blame others. The truth is he could have a adverse effect on the number of the entrants, period. Then I bet we will read another story telling how the recession or some others persons actions slighted the fields this year and the payouts went lower. Then a few more circuits will shut the door because he keeps yelling about getting the short end of the stick.
Steve Fellegy, I do know. As you have seen in the past, a guy becomes a fan. he becomes a better fisherman, and then he becomes a contestant. The fans will push this sport. I am glad Dave felt the need to tell them his point of view on this subject. They may choose RVing over buying a better boat and get involved. Success breeds success, meaning, if the person who you are watching is always whining about how much they get paid, you will get tired of it and quit watching. If the bait shop owners is always telling you that he is not making it as you fork over your doe, then its time to go elsewhere so that other guy will be in business. Negativity will not help anything.
A guy like Dave, that has the ear of more fisherman than he thinks, just told them it aint worth joining now, and dont even bother because you will go broke.
Please go to the wolf river page and look at updates on the wolf river slow no wake issues.
Thanks
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| Stacker
The economy will keep the Walleye world down! and you can take that to the bank! | |
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| Wow! I am surprised that Dave's article has pushed so many buttons.
I always believed that a majority of all the folks who fished tournaments understood the odds of winning and losing the event. I also felt that the competitors, be they on Steve Fellegy's level or mine, understood what a long shot is was to have this sport become a livelihood. My apologies to Steve if I am speaking out of turn for him. (He is a great guy to fish with)
What Dave is stating is not startling news and I do not expect it to have any overall influence on whether or not one buys a boat or continues fishing.
The economy is going to be the biggest issue for all discresionary purchases in the next few years. The rest is up to the tournaments to offer attractive programs and locations to entice anglers to participate.
Meanwhile, we all will have to buckle up for a nasty ride.
Oh, and in answer to the original question, some of us are hopeless dopes who just love comptetion and learning, and it has it's costs.
Good luck to you all,
Jim O
Edited by Jim Ordway 10/28/2008 3:24 PM
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| I agree in the fact that the economy is going to take it's fair share of players out of the game. Simply because when guys like Joe the plumber are getting laid off, chances are they won't be using their un-employment check to pay entry fees.
As for players, so long as there are, liars, BS'ers, braggers, and testosterone there will always be "boys being boys" and competition. So the tournament life will live on. | |
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| stacker - 10/27/2008 5:07 PM
Dave Landahl, thanks for kicking tournament walleye anglers, at every level in every state, right in the coin purse. That article will take guys, who had dreams of entering, and you just single handedly crushed them. It will stop many that were to enter, they will decide not to. It will slow the sales of boats and the tackle industries will feel the lack of impact as well. I cannot believe that a person like you would write such jibberish. Do you want this sport to die? Do You even realize what you just said?
I don't understand what he said that was so bad. Had he indicated that anyone who ever entered a tournament had a great shot at fame and fortune........well that isn't what he said. He spoke the truth and you have a problem with the truth? Perhaps a few thousand political commercials on TV is what you need to understand the truth.
FYI, I don't fish tournaments but I do believe in free speech and showing both sides of an issue. You can't possibly paint the tournament scene as a way to make a living. | |
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| As i was reading through the posts i wondered how long it would be before one of the regulars on here who shamelessly promotes anything he can would be realize he is the epitome of that article and get all bent out of shape about it. And look who it was The last couple chapters of iaconelli's book deal with the same issues, and Dave is spot on with his article. Well done Dave. Hopefully this (the article) will stir the pot enough. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | hahahahahhaahahahaahahahahaaha, you are a piece of work. you kids, well, lets just leave it at that. | |
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| Well.... this thread went a little while before someone had to get personal.
Why does this have to happen over and over? Is there no civility?
We lost another contributor recently do to this garbage.
I guess we can just keep trying.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | But that always happens Jim. I am sure Brain Kordus(slipknot) is well informed on what he speaks of. He must know what I have been doing.
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| I think the old adage should apply here......don't shoot the messenger!!!
Dave hit the head on the nail with his article. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The article states:
In fact, some of the world's top anglers can't afford to fish (or don't want to go broke doing it). When you take them out of the game, you don't actually have a competition that includes the best of the best.
Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this? Do the fisherman think there are better guys out there? Man, I know alot of guys that fish and ain't one of them certain about anything, oh, other than the fact that they can win the tournament that they are entered. Not the next guy.
He also states:
In my estimation, the bottom-line is this. Until the day comes that "pro" anglers are actually paid a salary to fish and not just given small morsels to feed their addiction, then we will truly never have pro anglers. Yes, marketers, businessmen and women, but not truly pro anglers.
Right now we are independant contractors, all making deals on our own. What happens if there is a paid salary? Do we all have to then be on a team, or employeed by someone to get the salary. Do we have to make less money so its and even playing field? Will there be salary caps? The last statement is paramount, he states: "Yes, marketers, businessmen, but not truly pro anglers.
Your darn tootin' they are them things. As far as pro goes, everyone has a different idea, to each his own. Some have worked very hard to get to where they are. SOOO, Because the mass' cannot figure out how to make the dollar at this game, at this level, the ones that are, are supposed to , now get this, "Redistribute the wealth". | |
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| "Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this?"
I'm not sure believe is the correct term.....there are guys at the top that are constantly networking with NON Professional anglers....this happens at every stop of the tour. So, I'll answer your question with another question.....As a "top" angler, would you ask a "lesser" angler for help? I too know many anglers, and I know many of them don't believe they can win a certain event, but they feel like they can cash or compete. There's a big difference between competing, and truly BELIEVING you can win.
"In my estimation, the bottom-line is this. Until the day comes that "pro" anglers are actually paid a salary to fish and not just given small morsels to feed their addiction, then we will truly never have pro anglers. Yes, marketers, businessmen and women, but not truly pro anglers. "
I'm going to speak for my interpretation of what Dave is saying. Until anglers are paid to show up, PAID to run boats/motors, or truly can make a living. Which means in my estimation, means making 6 figures.....it can't be considered professional fishing. Where did I come up with 6 figures? Cause it costs over 30k a year in expenses. I know for me, having a family and such....I'd have to make 100K before expenses to consider a career change.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Corey Heiser - 10/30/2008 4:27 PM
"Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this?"
I'm not sure believe is the correct term.....there are guys at the top that are constantly networking with NON Professional anglers....this happens at every stop of the tour. So, I'll answer your question with another question.....As a "top" angler, would you ask a "lesser" angler for help?
Response:
Information gathering, checking notes and then putting a game plan together on the water is a far cry from asking a lessor angler for help. A tidbit, a piece of the puzzle yes, lessor, well, that has interpretation as well. Someone who is not fishing that event would be considered as a bench mark as a lessor angler, AGREED? Ok then, would we ask someone for any pertinent info regarding that body of water at that time of year? Well We certainly would. But help is a long word with few letters.
Everybody interprets things differently. However, there are guys who are getting paid to show up. There are guys who are making cash. Maybe, and just maybe more than what you think. Again, they are independant buisnessmen. There is no public disclosure. Maybe a union so group health could be explored. Theres an idea. I dont think My kids will be alive to see the day tournaments become different than independant business'. | |
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| "Everybody interprets things differently. However, there are guys who are getting paid to show up." Not by the organizers of the tournaments.
"There are guys who are making cash. Maybe, and just maybe more than what you think. Again, they are independant buisnessmen. There is no public disclosure." Honestly, how many walleye tournament anglers do you think are making "cash"? 30-40? We're talking about 9-10 states worth of people, and less than 50 are doing well.....THAT'S ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE!!! Ex. In ND, there are 3 full time professional walleye tournament anglers. Johnnie Candle, Jim Carroll, and Tom Backer. That is not very many.
Maybe a union so group health could be explored. Theres an idea. I dont think My kids will be alive to see the day tournaments become different than independant business'.
Stacker,
I know there are guys making a living and some are doing well for themselves, but we're talking about the group as a whole. You go down any tournament leaderboard and it's 80-90 percent full of guys that aren't making ends meet with just their fishing careers. I'm not trying to create negativity or anything like that, cause I hope and wish that there could be 200 walleye anglers making a GOOD living being a pro fisherman. And maybe my standard of a good living and your standards are different.
IMO, the industry has created a real damned if you do, damned if you don't system. EX. Sponsors give a "new" guy discounted product and he proudly wears his shirt/hat/logo on vehicle. Which is great for him starting out, but he's just devalued a sponsorship. Cause the sponsor figures, I don't have to give the midlevel guy money cause I've got a ton of startups willing to do the same thing for no cash. And notice I didn't bring up the top guys, cause they know what they're doing. TV, magazines, seminars, etc...Right now, it is horribly hard to transition from "newbie" to "fulltime". TOO MANY GUYS ARE HAPPY PAYING 40K TO WEAR A SHIRT AND HAT!
Anyways, I hope tournaments will grow and allow more anglers to fullfill lifetime dreams and goals. | |
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| Corey,
I couldn't agree more. I think making a "good living" as a Professional Angler would be awesome. I just don't see how many can do it in such a competitive, limited market. God bless the ones who can. I'm fairly certain not many are doing $70K/year or better on a consistent basis. Considering the trips/hours required to fufill some of the requirements of being "sponsored" plus all the expenses of being a tournament angler, I can't see the wages being near what my family need to live on. I'll stick to my day job, as well as doing some side projects for "tourney cash" and continue as a self sponsored tourny angler who loves "the game" for what it is.
Tim | |
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| The sport became top heavy as it became ever more expensive to enter and compete.
The sport will never again obtain the excitement of the "growth" years under the fast and loose years of the Lindners.
If one sell tournament boats for a living there is only one suggestion; get over it. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | I disagree. First, there was very little 'fast and loose' about the Lindner In Fish PWT organization. Second, there's plenty of innovation right now, and new and exciting things happening. Third, what is a 'tournament boat'? A big water Walleye rig, correct? Those are not going to cease to exist and folks stop fishing big water because of a recession, this too shall pass and folks will again be buying. Finally, I don't see the sport as top heavy, I see it as the other way around.
What are the available sponsors supposed to do with a new angler in the sport? Start him/her off with a $50K salary, a new rig on a memo, and expenses? What is, then, the newbie to do, turn down a heavily discounted rig and wait until someone offers big money? It is what it is because there's few realistic options unless the sport grows, and grows quite a bit, and that, I am sure, is FLW and AIM's goal long term. Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem.
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| "Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem."
Steve, thats the typical thinking inside the box mentality that is limiting the growth of this sport. Time to get a bigger nut(shell) and concentrate on bigger sponsors, IE Rolex Nike, Pepsi, Coke, Miller, Bud, Google, Yahoo and so many others with HUGE marketing budgets. but i'm sure you know that already.
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK, I like this discussion. So, we are now going after big sponsor dollars in the non-endemic world. I can sell anything, hire me for the job, but I need direction. Tell me this:
What is your sales pitch, to a sponsor, to get them to cough up, well.... how much money do YOU think they should pay? How much do you want me to ask for? Can you tell them our fan base numbers and what they would be getting in return? Can you tell me what cokes dollars of investment are for the super bowl and return per fan? Can I tell them projected growth?
This is plenty easier to say than to do. Then, the fisherman want someone, say me, who has done very hard work, to just hand the cash over. It has been proven from the time you went to college that if daddy paid, you did not do as well as if it was your own money. Or even a scholarship, because you earned it and took pride in it.
I do not want to poo poo anything, but be realistic, the sponsors will not write million dollar checks to impact say 1 million customers. When they look at the demographics of our sports fan base, they will find that there allready touching them fans with another avenue of advertising. That is also crosssing, cross marketing, with other hobbiest's of another brand. "Killing 2-3-or even four birds with one stone". There is many things to remember when doing this.
And I have to say this, but I am sure you allready knew that. LOL
Edited by stacker 11/7/2008 10:09 AM
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Steve, thats the typical thinking inside the box mentality that is limiting the growth of this sport.'
Really? Then please show me how to drag in the non endemics and offer them the exposure they require to spend the money that would launch competitive angling into the Pro Sports category, and show me how to convince the endemics to toss their entire promotional/advertising budget into ONE venue of the many available in the fishing world. The horse has to be in front of the cart. They don't push worth a darn.
"Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem."
Let's fund the sport and say the field of 'I want to be a Pro Angler' contestants is 250 in the US and Canada right now. Let's say they all want a living out of competitive angling. A 'fair' compensation average would create a base budget of about $42,500,000.00, and that's just take home 'averaging' $50K and a standard benefits package, plus expense accounts and necessary equipment. Now let's run the events, etc, add a couple million more. Buy the ads, promote the product, get it on national TV; add several million more.
That kind of money would fund the sport and get it out in front of the public, hoping the potential new fans love it as much as we do. Who's stepping up? Someone might, I guess, after all Professional 'Wrestling' has a pretty good following.
It is what it is, and the changes will come, but only as fast as the new machinery can run. The forward thinking companies will get in while it's inexpensive by comparison. | |
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| "Then please show me how to drag in the non endemics and offer them the exposure they require to spend the money that would launch competitive angling into the Pro Sports category"
I have no idea Steve, but relying on fishing industry sponsor dollars is the wrong way thats for sure. My best guess is to hire an agent and market yourself! Names like Mike Jordan, Tiger Woods, Dale Ernhardt, Jeff Gordon and thousands of others come to mind as they have done it well and their agents have done it well for them. What are their sponsorship dollars worth to them?
Can fishing get to this level? Can they build a loyal fan base by using the public domain as their playground?
With all the pink slips flyin' around these days it's gonna take some innovative thinking, and some guys with darn good agents. They all know that a few free goodies from the fishing industry manufacturers are hardly worth their time and effort.
Good luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Agencies go to potential sponsors and make their pitch. If there's not a direct ROI then there's no contract Agent or no Agent. The infrastructure existed for the Nascar and PGA pros of today to be ABLE to hire an agent and get something done, it's just now being considered in the pro fishing world.
The 'public domain' is the Media, right? | |
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| Wow! Quite the discussion... I've been involved in bass tournaments for 13 years... fishing in them, running them everything... Drove all over the country, used so many vacation days it is scary... I was gonna light them up... Failed... The money I blew is scary... took me 2 years to dig myself outa that hole... I have alot of opinions on this here goes...
B.A.S.S. sucks... I would never sign up for them if it wasn't for the weekend series... they have taken the average guy right outa the mix... he who has the motivation, the time and the money, is outa luck...
I've been at the events, seen the pros on the water helping themselves out... the guy who shows up to fish can't compete against KVD, Fritts and Elias when they are helping each other... the big names want to keep the money right there, in the big names... so does ESPN and B.A.S.S.... I had a problem with a big name pro on the water... got heated... Ray Scott came up to me and told me to my face... we don't need you, we need him... and yes, he has a giant melon head...
I'm of the opinion, pay your money and fish.... pick how much and where... thats why FLW is good... you can go big time or little... but they push the ranger deal too much, a tuffy guy better really catch em! I have no idea what is going on in the walleye tournament world... I do know nothing in the northeast... shame, some great fishing over here...
If you can afford it go for it... make sure your bills are paid first...
right now my bills are paid, I'm catching bass better than ever... every day in a tournament I'm on fish to win... things happen doesn't work out... my problem now is time... I'm not gonna drop a federal job to go fish... I've seen tournaments dark ugly side... I pay my entry and know what I'm getting...
Maybe tournaments should be run by anglers not promotors... take some of that cash and give something to the guy sleeping in the truck... throw him a burger or a gas card to get home...
tournaments should be 100%+ payout all cash no boats or nothing... nothing taken out for some"classic"
how much money did B.A.S.S. and FLW get from chambers to get them to come there? Somebody should post that number.... NY state alone coughed up about 100,000 last year...
make it for the anglers, then the fans, then the sponsors.... everything else will work out... | |
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| great post iceman by the way.. but guys this is all comming down to suply and demand! i know we here and many like us cant get enough fishing coverage but there is no general public demand to support more competitive fishing on tv . the top publications on the magazine shelf have enough stories and hero's to fill there pages with plenty of content sell there publications and tv .. are you going to get ten magazines in the mail a month? are you going to watch 20 hours of tournament coverage a week on tv.. OK most of US may.. but we arent the general public.. and the advertizers in the industry have plenty of options .. the major heavy hitters are in all the major sportinggoods outlets and on the shelf.. you dont see a cabellas or gander mountain next door to every wallmart do you? are thay as big as a wallmart? every town has a grocerystore or 50 a gas station or 50 but how many have a bait and tackle shop or 50? if you want to play in the big league you need to have the money and the time.. something a very small percentage of our population has (both) of that small amount of the populaition there are many hobies or things we love to do to turn pro in and plenty of places to make freinds spend money and compete.. auto racing , would be fun! golf would be cool, snowmobile racing? competitive shark tournaments? horse racing, dog shows, bmx with your kids, trap skeet and shooting options, sailing , boat racing, motorcycle buildoffs... drag racing , the cananball run.. airplain shows , car shows , texas holem , gambling of any kind , look it all takes time and money! Walleye fishing competitively is no different.. For the guy who is frustrated and a bit short on time and money your not alone.. the things i like about it is the competitiveness of the game and the folks who play the game.. you make a lot freinds .. but when the stress of money and time come into the game its not fun anymore. its ugly for half the field.. i am now going to fish a few larger events close to home and i will be searching for a smaller club to play ball with every couple weeks to get my fix.. even thinking about forming a sunday catch and eat series . low stakes and something that pre-fishing isnt a must to compete.. there are some great anglers out there that dont have a lot of time.. they dont have a lot of spare income to blow and there tired of the stress.. but there good people and fun to be around.. so the trophy is smaller and the check isnt so large.. it needs to get back to lets all meet for a beer saturday night and we will all get up in the morning and cut the crap.. i think if you like competitive walleye fishing its time to get a good club togather and start having some fun! for most its going to end up the only option unless your blessed with a checkbook and the free time to hit the road twice a month and drop 3-5 grand a week fishing. either your a Big shooter or your not? which are you? Face it and accept it! big shooter ya we all wanna be.. but some just cant pull it off . Get angry blamb the industry or the game all you want but there isnt room for everyone. so for now its a dream... im ok with that.. some do whatever it takes to make it happen.. some dont wanna risk it all.. remember most fail... start a new club and gather up these guys and fish and compete. wed nights whatever.. you dont need a 50 k boat.. a 1980 17 footer can catch plenty of fish too.. if its a boat parade you like then wash up that new rig in drive from tour to tour.. hit the big events around home... cool i have no problem with that.. but as far as room for us all and plenty of checks to go around.. wake up there is no demand for it from the public.. most dont give a sh** and its time to come out of the either and understand our love of walleye fishing and competion doesnt make it a money maker for but a small few.. | |
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| another thing.. Now you go to a larger tournament.. everyone shows up with there gear on at the rules meeting.. they all go out fishing 3/4 th of the field gets there A$$ kicked and doesnt even hang around after because the need to get home or dont feal good about there day and dont find pleasure in sharing the time with freinds . they dont even stick around to support fellow anglers that had the day of there lives! big boats fancy shirts cool sunglsses and an attitude.. i look at the guys how joined AIM.. do you know what i see? i see 3/4ths of them as oldschool longing for the day when they all showed up at a destination for a shootout! names and representives of there home waters ... all booking rooms and taking over a hotel or resort on the water for a long weekend or short week away from home.. plenty of good food and a beer or two and the big names .. guys who loved fishing and being around freinds with the same pashon... i see a group longing for time 20 years past with the dream that they can also make a living at the same time... thats what i see.. i hope it works ! ive maybe fished 60 tournaments in my day.. many of these guys have fished hundreads and hundreads. one thing we all have in common is we are all searching for something that is missing and its time to figure out if what we are looking for exists at all? | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | I said I wouldn't comment here anymore but as long as the "Lord" has spoken...I must answer him. (don't dust his post)
To say the least, the "Lord" is RIGHT! Not only was AIM formed to provide P & K a place to fish and earn a living but ME TOO!!! And EVERY other investor/angler in the company and others who follow as well. AIM wasn't formed for any other purpose but to make money for many people and many companies!
The "Lord" needs to post how the thing is "rigged" though. "Crooked" buddies??That confuses me.....are you saying the 7 guys who formed AIM are crooks? MY LORD!!! We used OUR money(original 7)--NO ONE else's money to form AIM.
Careful what you say "Lord". | |
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| As I see it, AIM, PWT, FLW and all the rest are intended to be profitable enterprises. Unfortunately, the PWT'S economical viabltily came to an end.
The beauty of the whole process is that those who choose to participate in any of the events can do so on the merits of the process. The FLW entry in Walleye has done well to date. Hopefully AIM and others can contribute to the options to anglers that choose the participate.
What I do not understand is the insipid jealousy that some seem to display regarding those succesfull in the industry.
Anyone with any knowledge of the tourney scene knows how much time and commitement is needed to be succesfull in game. Certainly, developed relationships are benefical in any venture. It is up to all of us to develop our own networks as well.
I vote for anyone who attempts to grow the sport. All the negative rants add nothing.
Take care,
Edited by Jim Ordway 11/15/2008 1:22 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Jim and Steve,
I personally apologize that was up as long as it was, I was on the road. | |
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| For the most part I thought there was interesting input on this matter.
Clearly, a lot of folks have given these matters a lot of thought and provoke others to either rethink or defend their positions. Mostly good stuff.
As the cold weather begins to linger, we will see more and more of the casual visitors dumping their trash:)
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Is that really necessary?
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Location: Berlin | No, it isn't. | |
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| As with most comments, you have to consider the source.
Edited by Shep 11/18/2008 12:55 PM
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| Ok, I take it all back. Vaporize this thread.
Where does this venom come from? Nothing good for sure.
Jim O | |
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Are Tournament Anglers Dopes?