|
|
|
Nothing needs to be said...
Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest:
'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's
contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and
Washington.
The findings are as follows.....
1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee
contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The
company also offered ER response team services and office space to
displaced government employees.
2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions
of the sam e number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks.
3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims
of the Sept. 11 attack.
4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the
New York Police Dept.
5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation,
funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and
victims of the WTC.
6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
7. Audi-Nothing.
8. BMW-Nothing.
9. Daewoo- Nothing.
10. Fiat-Nothing.
11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in
August 2001
12. Isuzu- Nothing.
13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.
14. Nissan-Nothing.
15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche
website.
16. Subaru- Nothing.
17. Suzuki- Nothing.
18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.
Condolences posted on the website
Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep
this information in mind. You might want to give more consideration to a
car manufactured by an American-owned and/or American based company.
Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed
nothing at all to the citizens of the United States, and remember one thing,
their profits do NOT stay in this country...that money is gone from the USA!
It's OK for these companies to take money out of this country, but it is
apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe
we should not forget things like this. Say thank you in a way that gets
their attention..
Please pass this on. | |
| | |
| Now that really makes a person think, thanks for that post, I'll be sure to pass it on. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 39
| Modern Parable.
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford
Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River
Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak
performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to
investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management
team made up of senior management was formed to investigate
and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1
person steering, while the American team had 7 people
steering and 2 people rowing.
Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management
hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of
money for a second opinion.
They advised, of course, that too many people were steering
the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to
prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's
management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering
supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant
superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would
give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work
harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program
,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers.
There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and
other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and
bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the
competition' and some of the resultant savings were
channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork
posters.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower,
halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and
canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The
money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as
bonuses.
The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower
was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so
he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe
equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was
out-sourced to India .
Sadly, the End.
Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the
last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US,
claiming they can't make money paying American wages.
TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a
dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9
billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting
bonuses... and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'.
IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY
| |
| | |
| Who cares how much money they donated, I surely don't. The amount of innocent people killed by drunk drivers per year makes 9/11 look like a Sunday brunch at the church social, but I don't see anybody wondering how much money Budweiser donated. How much money did a dead person get from a drunk driver by these companies? NOTHING. How much money from the U.S. government did a victim of a drunk driver get? NOTHING. The 9/11 may be a tragedy where 2900 people died all at once, but 18,000 innocent people will die in 2008 alone and not one penny of government sympathy money will be given by the U.S. government as were the 9/11 victims
My point is some deaths especially in large numbers all at once are more importance than other "less important" trivial deaths.
The DUMBO U.S. people buy the lie ....hook, line and sinker!
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Chipper, government's job is not to hand out money everytime somthing bad happens in life and comparing drunk driving to 911 is so, so off base and not even comparable. With that being siad I'm not sure if the original post was supposed to rouse sympathy for the big three with the financial mess they are in but it gets no play on my end. No surprise they donated to a national event like 911, but I'm sure they didn't donate to most other tragedies that happen around the world. Does that make them horrible for not donating....no. I look for the best product for the price, not who donates what. | |
| | |
| Off base? LMAO.....you got to be from Minnesota or or Wisconsin right? There is no difference between getting innocently greased by some collapsing buildings hit by a plane or driving innocently down the road and getting greased by a drunk.
The Fact is you just died an innocent death at the hands of some jerks where the punishment should be DEATH! DEAD is DEAD and in both situations you are called a crime victim!!!! SPell it out. "CRIME VICTIM" The fact is if you died in 9/11 your family got an average of 2 million TAXPAYER dollars and the victims of drink driving didn't get SQUAT.
Do you "get it" now? GEEZ......its no wonder why the world is so screwed up!
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Boy did you miss my point! No one should expect nor recieve money from the government because someone dies....that is what life insurance if for. The classification of dead is the mute point. So if my 5 year son falls in the lake and drowns I should recieve money from the DNR because they have control of the lakes?? You more than likely think that when someone is shot in a robbery the gun manufacture should pay the victims family. | |
| | |
| It always amazes me how some people will post stuff like this on the net without first checking it out for accuracy.... from Snopes.com
GM - 1 million + 50 vehicles
Ford - 2 million
DaimlerChrysler - 10 million
Audi - 100,000
BMW - 1 million + 10 SUV's + 100 motorcycles
Honda - 1.5 million
Kia - 300,000
Mitsubishi - 200,000
Porsche - 20% of its "Drive for Hope" program
Subaru - 1 million
Suzuki - 31,000 + several SUV's and ATV's
Toyota - 1 million + program to match employee contributions
volkswagon - 2 million | |
| | |
| Forgot to add Ford and GM had programs to match employee contributions. | |
| | |
| After all the time, money and energy spent to entice auto manufacturers (other than the BIG 3) into the mid-west states MI. Oh. Ind. employing a lot of people and contributing a lot of monies to these localities, yes some goes over seas. Why do people try to put a guilt trip on people that buy other than the Big Three. Maybe they should consider why?? Just one example is 95% of current salary after their unemployment runs out. What is up with that when states unemployment offices are all but broke. I think we live in the best country in the world. We have lost a lot of job over sea, but thankfully we have gain some as well.
P.S. I lost my job because of NAFTA and outsourcing after 28 years, so I walked in those shoes. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 185
Location: Port Washington, wisconsin | Relative of mine bought a 2004 GM truck, new, and after 71 times in the shop he claimed the lemon law. Got a new truck. Wonder what he thinks of the bailout request. | |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | I had a GM that ran 350000 miles. I just sold a Ford last year with 230,000 on her. I run a Toyota Tundra now and love the truck.
I live in a 'world, not just the United States. I am aware commerce that's great for the US isn't limited by boundries and borders anymore when talking manufacturing.
It's hard to find anything that's 100% made in the US these days.
I feel really bad for the Auto Workers, it's not the guy assembling the doors on the GM trucks fault GM pays what they do all the way from top to bottom, it isn't his fault they can't get the house in order...it's management and that goes for ALL management top to bottom.
I'm not even going to guess what needs to be done with GM, that's beyond my somewhat limited sight plane these days. We just spent a TON of money so a few big banks could get bigger buying out other banks with the money. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I really do not feel that bad for the auto workers or management, they both had a heap to do with what is going on. The union did the industy no favors in this. | |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 11/28/2008 1:42 PM
I really do not feel that bad for the auto workers or management, they both had a heap to do with what is going on. The union did the industy no favors in this.
I guess that was a little outdated. At the time, it was pretty accurate in 2001. I should have assumed that the bad press the foreigns got would have opened their wallets. My aplogies.
Redneck and others. What about all the others who are not part of management or unions? Or work for the suppliers effected? I'm an engineer and not part of any union. I make a descent wage, but less than the $23/hr the Honda and Toyota line workers make. More than the new UAW hires at $14/hr though. Why screw me? And the 2 million others in the supply chain that aren't union? Sure, there are some UAW workers left that make in the upper 20's, but they're getting few and far between. They have more time on the line than Toyota has in this country though! The issue isn't wage. It's legacy costs. Plain and simple, GM has been here 100 years, and Toyota and others only a decade or less. The Big 3 have accumulated retirement costs and the foreigns have not. New UAW hires make about $5 less per hour than new foreign hires.
Quality? We can debate that forever. Show me one good Toyota or Honda and I'll show you 5 great domestics. We could go on forever. That's more a matter of perception than anything. Funny how the preception of Big 3 cars are so bad only in the U.S. and Europe, but regarded as higher in quality everywhere else, even in the orient.
And why not float the industry a LOAN???? We already gave 6 TRILLION away to the banking industry. The U.S. taxpayers made a sizeable profit on the Chrysler LOAN. Go ahead, let the industry die. The unemployment bill for the 3 million Big 3 workers alone is over $50 Billion for the first year. Possibly over $100 billion if a bunch of suppliers go down. Some estimate a $2 trillion hit to your wallet. That's not a loan either!
| |
| | |
| Not confused - 11/28/2008 9:11 AM
Just one example is 95% of current salary after their unemployment runs out. What is up with that when states unemployment offices are all but broke.
P.S. I lost my job because of NAFTA and outsourcing after 28 years, so I walked in those shoes.
If you were part of the industry, you should know that the 95% is NOT any burden on taxpayers. Workers draw the same state unemployment bebefits as every other citizen. The balance of the 95% is funded by the UAW and the employer. Before you get your panties in a bunch, that was a deal worked out for the manufacturers benefit. When a plant shuts down for retooling, which sometimes takes over a year, they want the same experienced workers right back on the line. Not having to go out and find green workers. Yes, it was a great idea for all parties in the good years, but it's not now. That's why you're seeing it phased out. | |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | I think I said I had a great GM vehicle and a great Ford. I now run a VERY nice Tundra built in Texas. Five to one? Not too sure on that one, I've had GM transmissions go like candy, and ford emission control computers, too. My Dodge needed a new oxygen sensor about every 20,000. That's three a year for me.
No one is 'screwing' anyone far as I can see. I find it interesting that free market capitalism is applauded loudly as the US WAY of doing business right when it benefits us directly, and not so much when it doesn't. And no one said anything about 'panties in a bunch' except you...let's keep the discussion civil and about the industry, please. | |
| | |
| I didn't mean it was 5:1 ratio. I just meant that it can go tit for tat with quality comparisons forever. And I wasn't being uncivil with the panties comment. It does seem shocking to some with the 95% on the surface until you see the reasoning at the times.
As for screwing. It is screwing us from many people's point of view. It has a personal element to it. Surveys say that over 50% of people oposing the loans think it should be a punitive measure for the industry. To teach them a lesson. No denying that's the sentiment of many. Spoiled, spoiled unions is the ignorant assumption. Well, in that lesson, are many, many innocent people who work hard for a non-union wage, and are just victims of countless mistakes by others and lumped in with the management and unions.
| |
| | |
| One thing to remember also, when it comes to cost. My non-union UAW wage as an r&d engineer is paid for by the manufacturer. The wages of Toyota and Honda r&d engineers is paid for by the Jaspanese government.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I for one will be spitting mad if my tax dollars have to go to bail out the auto industry. I didn't agree with the bank bail out. There is not anything written anywhere that states just because a company has been around for 100 years that it has a right to be around for another 100 years. If management and union cannot agree on settlements that will keep an industry viable then it deserves to die. You have picked to be in a career field that is not viable at the moment, and just because you are an engineer does not entitle you to continue with the same wage, employer or benefits. If you cannot (or refuse to) adapt your going to be in a world of hurt. I was heavily involved in the manufactured housing industry until it went under. I did not complain but I did grab onto something that I thought I would be good at and put all my effort into it and it succeeded. I am not meaning to sound cold hearted but this is life. Neither you nor I am entitled to keep the wage or benefits that we have, if the time comes for you to move on I suggest moving on before you get stuck in a rut. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2567
Location: Manitowoc, WI | For those who will be mad when the government DOES bail out the auto industry, similar to what it is doing for the banks, consider this: stability in the economy is what the goal is. This isn't a case of worrying about who's pocket this money comes from. I for one am glad that during my lifetime they are at least trying to help a large group of people, which will trickle down to helping even more people, instead of investing it somewhere foreign where it won't help anyone in this country. How often, in the last 100 years, can it be said that we had one iota of knowledge as to where our tax money is going? I say let them spend it, and make sure the money is spent to help the masses and not the CEO's who are creating the biggest burden for this country. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Jerry, that would be fine and good in the banking industry if the money was actually used to free up the credit freeze like it was intended, not buying up other banks. This notion that my tax dollars have to go to prop up whole industries is sick. If this is how it has to be then all this inflated wages and benefits need to be cut back a lot in both management and union. We went through this with Chrysler back in the 80's, so I guess that every 20-30 years we should used to giving the auto industry loads of money for very bad decisions and horrible union negotiations. You know, I need my money just as much as the auto industry needs my money. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | RNT - What's wrong with a loan? As long as they pay Uncle Sam back, I don't really care. It does bother me that I am going to be paying for the mortgage crisis that has spilled over onto Wall Street because I don't see those pukes ever paying that money back. And you may want to do a little reading on the Chrylser deal that Carter signed into law in 1979. The US Government guarenteed the loans - meaning Uncle Sam didn't give Chrylser one penny - had Chrysler defaulted on the loans, tax dollars would have been used to re-pay the banks. Its VERY important to note that Chrysler paid back the last of the guarenteed loans in the mid 1980's and actually made $350 for the US Treasury.
Should the US government get involved in private industry to this level? Maybe, maybe not. Just don't insinuate that Chrylser took tax dollars or that the US treasury suffered in any way for what Carter signed into law in 1979. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Brad, the point still is that the taxpayers were on the hook if Chrysler was unable to pay it back, there was no guarantee of that. Chrysler also had the unions and stockholders sacrificing a lot to help the company survive (unlike today). We are also not talking about government backed loans, we're talking about a direct loan from us, the tax payer. Why should my tax dollars, my kids tax dollars and my grand kids tax dollars go to any company as a loan when that company would never be able to get the loan on its own in the market place because it is not solvent? Does the government give "loans" to people who spend over their limit and ability to pay back credit card debt, or people who buy a home in which they wanted to own but couldn’t really afford? No...and the government shouldn't, the people have to work it out or file bankruptcy. This bail out is not so the auto makers can develop new technology, they want it to cover their day to day operating expenses for the next year because they cannot do it on their own. Chrysler at least had a new front wheel drive vehicle ready to launch and a game plan to go with it. At the present time the economy and market is not in the automotive buying mode...so be it. Just because a business exists doesn't mean it has the right to keep existing if it cannot remain solvent. A business is not in business to give people jobs and keep them employed forever, they are in business to make money. If they cannot do that because of whatever reasons then they should have to take the same coarse of action any small business has to do when it cannot find funds on it's own. I work very hard for my money (and I do mean my money) and I am tired of having to give it up to companies who cannot survive on their own. Will this whole bailout stop the auto workers union from striking because the industry will not be able to give them yet another perk or pay raise? I doubt it. | |
| | |
| Several things you have completely wrong Redneck. First, you mention that nobody has made sacrifices. Let me point a few out to you. The Big 3 have trimmed almost 50% of their payroll. The UAW is now funding the workers healthcare. The dealer networks have been trimmed down, though more is needed. Even below the Big 3 many sacrifices have been made. American Axle workers had their wages cut in HALF and lost many benefits. Delphi, almost the same stroy. Then there's the 100's of other companies that have made cuts that didn't make the headlines.
Second, you keep refering to a bailout. It is not. It is a loan.
Third, the taxpayers were not on the hook for Chrysler. It was set up so that the taxpayers would get every penny back in the event of a Chapter 7 filing, just as they should in this case.
Fourth, you say they are in this mess because they are not solvent. I guess you are right in a sense, but you don't realize that in NORMAL conditions, banks would be lining up one after another to lend any of the Big 3 money. Thanks to great decisions by banking and investment execs, the credit market is frozen for everyone, even business.
Sure there's been alot of mistakes made and probably will be more, lots of sacrifices already made and probably more to come. but you and many others are so misinformed and detached from this industry that you don't know what is fact or rumor. I even see congressmen spewing misconceptions on camera because they have no idea. And I don't really think many people realize the repercussions of letting the industry die.
Like I pointed out before Red, if you're so worried about your tax dollars, then you better be worried about the $50-100 billion unemployment bill alone, possibly a $2 trillion+ hit altogether. I'll gladly take your tax dollars to fund my unemployment, food stamps, healthcare, etc for a year or more, but I'd much rather them get the loan, everyone make sacrifices, and keep the heart of our manufacturing base intact. And don't say go get a job, because with 15-20% unemployment, there will be no jobs!!! Far beyond the Big 3, you're going to have thousands of steel workers unemployed, millions from the parts suppliers, over 1 million dealer employees, tens of thousands of trucking and transportation jobs lost, and the list goes on and on. Some estimate that for every Big 3 job lost, three others will lose theirs as a result. It's not pretty!
Then there's the military aspect. What, are we going to have Honda and Toyota manufacturing our tanks and other military equipment in the time of a crisis? Think about that one! | |
| | |
| It's more like 9 lost jobs for each big three job lost! | |
| | |
| Wow Big 3, you assumed a few things. I was a UAW member for 28 years and I have a little idea what was going on then. I am not as informed as I was because I have been distanced because of job loss. As far as 95% wage retention for laid off workers for what ever reason, slow downs/retooling. It is true to be no load to the tax payer in the form of taxes, but bottom line is it did affect my wallet on the price of my car purchase. Don't get me wrong I do not want to see any business fail. | |
| | |
| Big Three, Kudos for sticking up for your union, Red Neck valid point on the DNR kid drowning point, both you guys need to chill, We ultimately have no voice, if we did, gas wouldn't have been $4/gal for so long, foreclosers, etc. I think the point Big Three was Trying to make was to support your local economy, lets lay down our political views, focus on the one thing thats not f-ed up (outdoors, lakes, etc)the election is over we can only wait to see what happens with obama give him the benefit of trying, long live the union, long live the small guy, long live the small business and non union employees, long the usa and walleye fishing ! PS My toyota was assembled in usa with most of the machined parts made in the usa oh by the way I saw alot of chevy's in europe | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Sorry Big 3, it is a bail out. When any company cannot find the funds to operate its everyday needs by normal market routes and has to beg the taxpayers to keep them afloat, it's a bail out. The banks have a freeze on credit to anyone or any company that they see as not solvent. They are not just handing out money to anyone anymore. There are many companies able to get loans through normal means, but they are solvent with a very good outlook of returns, the auto industry is not one of them. I'm not saying that it is all the auto industries fault because the government itself has a role to play. Yes the American Axle workers had their wages cut in half...what about the UAW? You cannot tell me that the workers could not live with $20 and hour instead of $30 an hour if it meant saving their industry.
This is almost identical to the paper industry. The paper industry has been in the decline for many years. More mills have closed than one can count and many, many good paying jobs have been lost (there is a good chance the numbers could rival the auto industry) but the one thing you did not see is Big Paper crawl to congress for money. The market dictated the course of action they took. And yes, the unions had a big hand in the closings. Some unions absolutely refused to make the concessions needed to keep their plants open, now they complain they are out of a job.
I am absolutely worried about the unemployment bill and every other bill and proposal like it. This country was not built on socialism where companies get propped up by the taxpayers.
There are other companies that build military vehicles (like Oshkosh Truck) and if it comes down to it those companies will pick up the slack. I work for a small company that just received a military contract for the heavy armor glass. There are other alternatives besides the Big 3 and they do just a good quality job. I understand you are in the industry and it affects you directly but we are a free market society, so I thought. Auto workers had it very, very good for a long time...now they won't, the same with everyone else. Learn to roll with
it is the only thing I can say. | |
| | |
| One last correction Red. What about the UAW you asked?? They've already taken wage and benefit concessions. If you haven't read in the news, new UAW hires make $14/hr. Big 2 Japanese? $19/hr. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Say, Redneck, I will give you a answer here. You have lived in valhalla all of your life. The area you live, is the area I moved to, from the area that is driven by the auto industry. There is one thing I will guarantee will happen should we NOT DO SOMETHING TO INSURE the big 3 stay afloat, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?
Your way of life will change drastically in your lily valley. You ask why? Here is why. Ever see a ship sink? Rats jump for there lives. Michigan will exit workers so fast your head will spin, and they will be right where you are at looking for work in the factories that are allready full of workers. I will guarantee that as it has been happening for 4 decades. Just like ripley said "Believe it or not". I have had many friends and relatives allready calling, looking. And ya know what? Not a one works at GM. They all work non-union that supplies carpet, dashes, blinker fluid and muffler bearing to GM. Them workers, my friend, are the ones that suffer.
You crack me up when you say that some times things have to change. Are you ready for change? You say you do not want your taxes going to this bail out, right. How about they go to feeding the starving as there will be millions of them? What would happen if your valley had 50,000 people come into it in 6 months. It very well could happen. How much more taxes would you pay for fire, police and garbage pick up? What kind of disease and crime would come with it. Believe me when I say, you will pay one way or the other. I would rather get a chance at getting our money back than to just hand it out.
Oh yea, one more thing, what do you think would happen in your valley if paper asked for help because every one was on the internet and they let it collapse? I do!!
Edited by stacker 11/29/2008 10:24 AM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I was not talking about new hires Big 3. That is not a wage concession that is a starting wage. A wage concession would be someone with 30 years under the belt making $40/hr taking a resonable pay cut to keep his company viable. If the Japanese auto makers can start out hire at $19 and remain solvent then the Big 3 are doing something wrong. Side question, if the Big 3 needs my money so bad or they will be going belly up why do they have new hires? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Hey redneck, I know lots of mill rats in your valley. NOT ONE OF THEM GUYS would take a pay cut, NOT ONE AND you know it!! stop with the holier than thou attitude. Ask eye lunker if he would take a pay cut?
Also, non and I mean Non of your points make any sense whats so ever to the over all picture. 19 bucks and hour. Man, that is just boarder line living for a family of 4.
Edited by stacker 11/29/2008 10:38 AM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Stacker, the influx of people looking for work coming from non-productive areas to productive ones has been happening since the beginning of the country. The lil valley I live in HAS been hit hard. My wife has worked for three paper mills in the last 10 years and every one has closed. Our way of life has changed drastically! I have lost my hunting land, cottage, retirement land, RV and my retirement savings all because of the economy but the one thing you will never hear me do is piss and moan expecting others to lift me up and, hand me a job or money. I really am glad you know my history, Stacker, to assume I live in la-la land. My family survived the Carter years (which were much worse than today) and we will easily find ways to survive this.
The mill rats not taking a pay cut is exactly my point! If the industry cannot justify the pay and they don't value their jobs enough to take a cut then so be it. The $19 an hour is starting wage for God's sake. Last year I provided for my family on average $21/hr...aint much more. Guess what, we still have our house, and insurance and we ate pretty nice.
Edited by RedNeckTech 11/29/2008 10:49 AM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Red, thats valhalla, not la-la. Valhalla is a word for a place of peace and contentment. And yes, Your valley is still a place of that, peace and contentment. It is a wonderful place that gets very very little injection from the outside areas. Honestly, if the hardest part of your existence is losing hunting land, retirement land and your RV, there are many that will swap places with you. As I said earlier, hold on tight, when these plants close in Michigan, there will be trained factory workers that will take your job for 15 an hour. Then lets see you take a cut in your wage and still provide for your family, as you say.
Dude, swallow hard and admit it, it will be easier to help than to suffer the rath. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Stacker, The hardest part of my existence really does not exist. It does not matter to me how much I loose because I have the wear-for-all to weather it, learn from it and improve. I have two children at home and pay child support on a third, my wife is un-employed. We went from $140,000 a year combined in 2004 to $42,000 year right now. I lost my business along with much more but I never complained, I came up with a plan, worked at it and I am slated to more than double our income next year. I realize I am not entitled to anything, not even a job much less be guaranteed a certain standard of living. If one cannot adapt to the changes in the economy then that is their problem, not mine. I work hard for what I make and I resent the fact that my taxes goes towards people that after losing a $30/hr job refuse to take one at $15/hr or less until the economy improves. They would much rather sit on un-employment and complain than get rid of some of their stuff, adjust to the economy, take a much lower paying job and weather it out. The biggest problem in all of this is the work force plain out does not want to adjust their standard of living when the economy cannot maintain it. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK, I will leave you alone with your thoughts. I can see that it is your way or no way. I have expressed mine as well as I can. I will not tell you my story, but just like, well you know what that is, everyone has one. Not all of them workers are the bad people, just remember that.
Have a great holidays.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Never said anyone was a bad person, people’s perspectives on life are different though.
Happy Holidays!
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 921
Location: Manitowoc, WI | I will say this and this alone! I as a union worker, have worked too long and hard to give up on my wages as they were bargained for. When the CEO's with their multi-million dollar Golden Parachutes take a huge paycut, only then would I consider reducing my wages. (Not gonna happen!) I believe we need to help others in order to help ourselves and do not mind if my tax dollars help others so that my children have it easier when they need it. Of course, if a person loses his job, he still has to feed his family and carry on. I know we will get through this. It may take a while but in the mean time, I will not throw stones.
Edited by Horshak 11/29/2008 1:10 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Most of the golden parachutes where created after the government disallowed a good portion of executives salaries as a business expense. The parachutes include a large portion of stock holdings which have plummeted greatly in value. Their income is partly based on stocks and when the stocks plummet so does their income. There is a reason executives make the amount they do, they are very hard to replace, and factory workers are not.
I believe in helping the fellow man when they are down but not by propping up their job. After all, when a union goes on strike and someone who needs a job to support his or her family crosses the picket line, you don't hear a union guy say "That's ok, he needs to feed his family and is in desperate need of the job." The reason is the non-union workers could replace the union worker and that just would not be right, right? So tell me why I should be more concerned about the union guy being able to keep his job when they do not show the compassion for others that need the money? You do not see union workers propping up non-union jobs, in fact they protest any non-union workers just like they did when Woodman's was built. So why should the union jobs be propped up?
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | RNT -
"This is almost identical to the paper industry. The paper industry has been in the decline for many years. More mills have closed than one can count and many, many good paying jobs have been lost (there is a good chance the numbers could rival the auto industry) but the one thing you did not see is Big Paper crawl to congress for money."
The auto industry today has almost nothing in common with the fall of many paper companies in the valley. The paper industry was and is still a viable sector of the US economy. Yes, they had to close a few mills that could not/were not producing product as efficiently as other mills could. World wide capacity was an issue, as was the cost associated with maintaining older mills. But the fact remains is was little more than supply and demand that killed most of the paper industry. Unfortunately for us, many of those closings were here in Wisconsin. The entire US auto industry is struggling now because of out of control heath care cost, the credit crunch, and because most US cars and trucks are not as efficient as their foreign couterparts. | |
| | |
| Brad, you are partly right but it was not simply supply and demand that killed the paper mills, case in point is Riverside. That plant was closed because the workers and union were simply not efficient to make a profit (the plant did not make a profit for over 4 years). The family that owned the mill tried to sell it but no other company wanted to buy an inefficient mill so they closed it and sold the machines to try to recoup some sort of money. They kept the converting plants and transferred all the jobs to Iowa where there were no unions and where they were showing profits.
Fox River owned six plants, five in the country and Bob and the board closed three because of the operating costs...aka the unions. Adding all the union paper makers and converting jobs lost in the last ten years it is staggering but not surprising.
As for the auto, the healthcare and benefits/retirements is the biggest factor in the killing of the industry. When GM has 70% of its corporate as benefits it is a tell tale sign.
I do not belong to a union (which is not a surprise) but I also would not work in a place that requires union membership, I like my pay based on merit. I am also not against unions, I just feel that if you live by the union you should also die by the union.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1195
Location: Orland Park, IL | We got some of the same issues in the technology field. The company I work for wants close to 50% of their workforce "offshore". India and kenya are two big suppliers. No union here, merely an announcement you job is going overseas and you got 60 days to find a new one else your out. At the least the union guys have some negotiating leverage. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 197
| I've been living the mill closings,layoffs and pay reduction. I have worked in the Fox Valley all my life and have really not had to deal with some of these issues because the paper industry was strong here and Kimberly Clark was a big employer. Now we have closed several mills,layed off thousands, and my mill was very close to being another. Fortunatly we were spared but for how long nobody knows. I find it very hard when the CEO sends messages on how we need to tighten up our belts and do all we can these days to cut costs. Then find out they made millions of dollars a year when many people have been layed off or took pay cuts. Someone made a comment about CEO'S being hard to replace and factory workers are not. Well why was it years ago CEO'S saleries were about 3 times the average worker made and mills were able to expand and grow? Now they are 10 to 20 million a year and everyones cutting jobs and needing bailouts? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | There are alot of missing pieces that are not being said here but also alot of very good points and pieces of the puzzle. For one i am for the loans to help the big 3 in this troubled time. I would like to see the auto workers union to be dissolved because its time for them to go. Unions are not needed in this day and age. For one example that bothers me is the new plants that have been build in foriegn country's by the big three. They were build there for a reason and the reason is that the union would not allow high new technology( robotic )plants build in the usa and have there union member s work in them because some of the robotic jobs would take some jobs away. This is a tough time and if a manufacturing comapny does not have the ability to change without outside interference(union) its just one more huge deterent for progress. Everyone been hit hard last few years i no longer get free health insurance i have been paying more and more every year and i work in a hospital. The bottom line survial is tough and the unions make it harder for companys to evolve! JMHO | |
| | |
| Eye Lunker, Red Neck, first off.. I will say this, without taking offense, neither one of you have OBVIOUSLY never been in a union. If it weren't for unions HERE in the USA... my friends, we'd all be going to the same dirty needle clinic, waiting for bread, modern day Russia etc. You guys want unions to go away so bad because you NON UNION GUYS can do the same job for $5.00/hr less right...That DINOSAUR BRAIN Mentality is why the companies/JOBS in the US have Already gone overseas, just remember at the least the union fights for its guys, and when your non-union shop closes its doors (non union jobs are the first to go overseas)you ain't getting nothing my friend when you punch that clock for the last time. Oh by the way when your standing in line asking... no... (BEGGING) your boss for a raise ..just remember how much it pissed YOU TWO OFF that union guys make what they make, oh and when your old and sick ...just remember when your health care runs out BECAUSE you decided against the union, Turn and look over at the union guy in the hospital next to you and remember the union stood for its people and the USA, go ahead complain more and be careful for what you wish for because your non-union jobs will be the first to go....other than that I hpoe everyone has a nice day and happy holidays, our children are what we need to plan for, they are the ones who are really going to take a bite out of the crap sandwich 15 years from now. Look real close at Canadian health care and the Russia economy, they never had unions to prevent that BS | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | Ok ffmed i repect your opinion and yes you do have a few valid point but your the one with the dinasour mentality and let me add you have no balls! Why dont you log in and identify yourself instead of hiding behind your screen at home. if anyone should be offended i should be with your post and assuming things about me? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| ffmed, eye lunker is right...unions are hampering the companies today and not helping. Unions had their place in time and they did good for the era but today you have union workers making the good wages, getting the good benefits and all the union does is ask for even more even when it is obvious to the whole country the industry is in no shape to keep giving to every want of the union worker, and all they are today are wants and not needs. If the union workers were so concerned about the jobs lost why don't they band together and pool $5,000 of their own money and buy one of the closing mills instead of complaining how it's not fair they lost their jobs? Management jobs are no easy task and they are the first people who make the company work so unions can have a job to make the product. Most executives do not make millions of dollars. The old executive of Fox River made around $225,000 and he had lots of stock...he deserved the stock since he actually owned the company and it was started by his family. Unions are pure...that is why when people from Riverside were being laid off some took it upon them selves to vandalize some of the corporate office vehicles. Thank you, I needed to put new tires on my wife’s van.
As far as wages, healthcare and such I do fine. Accrediting unions for every company providing good benefits for their workers is a little far reaching. As far as I see it unions would hamper my ability to advance in a company. I am aggressive and just waiting in line so enough time goes by so I can advance is not for me, let me advance on my own merit.
Buy the way, it has been the union jobs more than the non-union that have been moved overseas and to areas without unions and if the union workers are blind enough not to see the reason why union jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate then they deserve to lose the jobs. You cannot tell me the union's demands are not over the top when the AWU demanded the company pays for a job bank (this is where when there is a layoff the workers come in, sit around and play cards and games while getting 95% of their pay). The AWU is thinking about getting rid of that so that congress will give the company the money, not because it is ridiculous to have that.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | For those who never read this!http://www.fas.usda.gov/itp/Policy/NAFTA/nafta.asp
Edited by eye Lunker 11/30/2008 10:47 AM
| |
| | |
| Good Luck guys, we all gave our opinions...Big Three , Me ,Eye Lunker, and Red Neck Tech, we all have written our comments, argued points, and basically got no where, so let's shift the energy towards a different topic, sounds like your offended eye lunker, don't be afraid to seperate church from state...can't be offended when you talk politics you need thick skin, hopefully none of us lose our jobs no one deserves it. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | Hey ffmed your so strong on your convictions and throw cheap shot s at poeple but your ashamed of your self and like to hide behind your computor? ugh...... your coward and a small man!
Edited by eye Lunker 11/30/2008 11:22 AM
| |
| | |
| How come Red Neck Tech isn't upset, why are you so concerned about who ffmed is, Red Neck Tech gave his views back to the dude, and you stomped your feet, got bent outta shape, and are only worried about someone logging in and who they are, relax. Some of us are not members because we only add a few cents in here and there, I'm from windy city, believe me I've been around the block a few times, you don't always need to know who everyone is, like the dude said, get thick skin !! He's not a coward, if he is so what, if he doesn't have a profile like you where everyone can see the name and where he lives, so what, if you knew who he was, so what, if you can't handle getting into a political forum about unions, then don't post. | |
| | |
| Good, healthy debate going on here. I like it!
A question for the anti-unionists: As a worker, how do you propose to protect yourself against the mistreatment or un-fairness or maybe even abuse you may be subjected to by company owners who are *primarily* interested in maximizing profit? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| EF, I am not anti-union. Unions are for some people but not for me. I prefer to have my pay based on merit and as far as my experience most employers try to treat the employees well. There was just an employer in Illinois that sold their business and as a thank you to the employees they gave them checks ranging from $5,000 to $40,000 and it was non-union. Union shops are as vulnerable to greedy owners as non-union. Unions have not been able to stop their jobs from being relocated to different parts of the country with no unions or a different country all together for more profit. So as far as that goes unions don't do any good. | |
| | |
| EF Swagee - 11/30/2008 6:11 PM
Good, healthy debate going on here. I like it!
A question for the anti-unionists: As a worker, how do you propose to protect yourself against the mistreatment or un-fairness or maybe even abuse you may be subjected to by company owners who are *primarily* interested in maximizing profit?
If I don't like working there, I get a different job! Am I missing something? They sign your paycheck, not the other way around. | |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 11/30/2008 6:19 PM
EF, I am not anti-union. Unions are for some people but not for me. I prefer to have my pay based on merit and as far as my experience most employers try to treat the employees well.
ES--------Interesting. I am glad you haven't had bad experiences with abusive employers. Sadly, *many* fellow workers across the country and throughout the world have. I would point to this recent class action against Wal-Mart as one example: http://www.ilcaonline.org/ht/redisplay/1/printerfriendly/1
(an excerpt: "HASTINGS, Minn. – Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, violated the law more than 2 million times over a six-year period by denying workers time for breaks and forcing them to work "off the clock" for no pay, a Minnesota judge has ruled."
ES-----I wonder what, if anything, you have in common with those Wal-Mart workers?
There was just an employer in Illinois that sold their business and as a thank you to the employees they gave them checks ranging from $5,000 to $40,000 and it was non-union.
ES-------I am interested in learning more about that situation. Would you please direct me to a source where I might obtain the details?
Union shops are as vulnerable to greedy owners as non-union.
ES------- True, but to give credit to unions, which is what I am trying to do, we have to consider that a bit differently. The historical record shows that organized labor movements have won very important victories for those of us in the working class. Without their efforts of yesteryear, today's labor laws, like the eight-hour workday and mandatory break periods, for example, wouldn't exist. With that in mind, I'd argue that it is a lack of solidarity among today's working class that makes *all* of us in the working class vulnerable to greedy owners.
Unions have not been able to stop their jobs from being relocated to different parts of the country with no unions or a different country all together for more profit. So as far as that goes unions don't do any good.
ES------- If *we* (all of us in the working class) were better organized, the owners would have no choice but to meet our demands. With solidarity among workers worldwide, owners could expect the same demands wherever they went in or out of the country. | |
| | |
| Ooops, I didn't put in my guest name. I am responsible for that last post.
And
Yes, Mr. or Ms. "duh", you are missing quite a lot. | |
| | |
| EF Swagee - 11/30/2008 8:50 PM
Ooops, I didn't put in my guest name. I am responsible for that last post.
And
Yes, Mr. or Ms. "duh", you are missing quite a lot.
Well my advice is very simple then, start YOUR OWN business. Then you can give all your profits away to your employees! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Banding together and making the companies give in to your demands is reckless and irresponsible. A company is not in business to give you a job, it is there to make money. You, however, are there to help make the company money. People put a lot more on the line to start and run a business than you think, and since they have put a whole lot of money at risk to start the company they are entitled to the large returns. This mentality that executives are the evil in a company is wrong. Everyone in corporate is what makes the company and makes the jobs, the workers are the ones that make the products. Not everyone can run a company but just about anyone can make the products. I have yet seen a worker of a company give anyone a job but I sure see the corporate give jobs. | |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 11/30/2008 9:14 PM
Banding together and making the companies give in to your demands is reckless and irresponsible. A company is not in business to give you a job, it is there to make money. You, however, are there to help make the company money. People put a lot more on the line to start and run a business than you think, and since they have put a whole lot of money at risk to start the company they are entitled to the large returns. This mentality that executives are the evil in a company is wrong. Everyone in corporate is what makes the company and makes the jobs, the workers are the ones that make the products. Not everyone can run a company but just about anyone can make the products. I have yet seen a worker of a company give anyone a job but I sure see the corporate give jobs.
ES-------To be more clear, when I use the word "demand", I mean demanding a fair wage and decent working conditions without being abused. Abuse, you ask? I would point again to the recent class action against Wal-Mart, which your response ignored:
"HASTINGS, Minn. – Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, violated the law more than 2 million times over a six-year period by denying workers time for breaks and forcing them to work "off the clock" for no pay, a Minnesota judge has ruled."
(i included a link to the source in a previous post)
ES----- If you don't think it's "evil" to un-lawfully deny workers time for breaks and force them to work off the clock for no pay, so be it. It's become apparent we can't have a reasonable debate here. Thanks, anyway.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I did not respond to the Wal-mart because I don't know enough about it. Yes there are employer abuses just the same there are abuses that unions create. I am not going to nick-pick, this was a general discussion. Where ever did I say it was not evil to un-lawfully deny workers time for breaks and force them to work off the clock for no pay? If you're going to take me out of context like that then it is for the better that you depart from the debate. | |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 11/30/2008 11:38 PM
I did not respond to the Wal-mart because I don't know enough about it. Yes there are employer abuses just the same there are abuses that unions create. I am not going to nick-pick, this was a general discussion. Where ever did I say it was not evil to un-lawfully deny workers time for breaks and force them to work off the clock for no pay? If you're going to take me out of context like that then it is for the better that you depart from the debate.
Okay RNT, once again I'll ask you nicely, again. Please direct me to the source for your assertion that "unions create abuses". I am still waiting for the source that mentions the Illinois company that was sold and gave employees all that money.
You said (I am paraphrasing) that workers banding together is "reckless and irresponsible" and that the "mentality that [owners] are evil is wrong." You said that after I cited a source which clearly shows that workers banding together is necessary to prevent employer abuses, which is the core of my argument. You chose to ignore emperical facts, apparently becuase they don't line up with your argument. Instead, you pontificate. That's not fair, dude.
What's the matter? Can't handle a fair challenge?
| |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | gents,
PLEASE limit your comments to the subject matter at hand, and cease the personal insults. This is a fine debate for early ice in most of the Middle and Upper US and Canada, and I'd ask we keep it civil. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 744
| Guest- Were the Wal-Mart workers in the story you cited union workers? I read the story, and it made no mention of it, so I assume they were not. It looks to me like the labor laws worked as they should, Wal-Mart will be punished, and the workers reimbursed. I believe that story illustrates why we DON'T need unions anymore.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1656
| Good apples, bad apples.
Good cop, bad cop.
Good worker, bad worker.
Good union, bad union.
What I don't understand is how one can point the finger at "coporate evil greedy owners", yet I'm willing to bet they would defend thier union president who primarily skims money of the top of union dues to do what? Be a leader. How is that different than the corporate owner?
Same but different? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 40
| Big 3 worker - 11/29/2008 7:09 AM
Several things you have completely wrong Redneck. First, you mention that nobody has made sacrifices. Let me point a few out to you. The Big 3 have trimmed almost 50% of their payroll. The UAW is now funding the workers healthcare. The dealer networks have been trimmed down, though more is needed. Even below the Big 3 many sacrifices have been made. American Axle workers had their wages cut in HALF and lost many benefits. Delphi, almost the same stroy. Then there's the 100's of other companies that have made cuts that didn't make the headlines.
Have the union auto workers taken pay cuts? Have any Presidents or CEOs taken pay cuts? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | Guest-Okay RNT, once again I'll ask you nicely, again. Please direct me to the source for your assertion that "unions create abuses".
Well, if you call causing innocent people to lose their job abuse...
When General Motors' Saturn plant was opened amid the cornfields of Spring Hill, Tenn., in 1990, it was billed as a kind of corporate nirvana where a folksy labor force and enlightened managers would happily work to produce some of the best darn American cars on the road. The plant represented a unified front against growing Japanese imports and offered the broader prospect of peace between GM and the United Auto Workers. But last week the seething revolt that started at two GM parts plants in old-fashioned Flint, Mich., spread to this Southern paradise. The Flint strike shut off critical parts to the company, forcing the closure of 26 assembly plants and 100 component factories across North America and idling 186,000 workers. The strike is weighing on the economy too, contributing to a 0.6% drop in industrial output in June. The Saturn factory is the only GM plant in the U.S. still turning out cars. -Time magazine 2001
| |
| | |
| thumper - 12/1/2008 11:28 AM
Guest- Were the Wal-Mart workers in the story you cited union workers? I read the story, and it made no mention of it, so I assume they were not. It looks to me like the labor laws worked as they should, Wal-Mart will be punished, and the workers reimbursed. I believe that story illustrates why we DON'T need unions anymore.
I understand your viewpoint, Thumper, and I stongly disagree. I think the Wal-Mart class action is a glaring example of the need for unions.
No, none of the Wal-Mart workers in that story, or any Wal-Mart workers anywhere for that matter, are unionized. And that's why Wal-Mart is able to get away with its unlawful workers' rights abuses for so long. According to the article, there were some two-million violations over a six-year-long period.
I find it very, very hard to believe *unionized* workers would not have mitigated the conflict much more efficiently, which would've resulted in less violations, less legal fees, less suffering, less bad press, etc.
Wal-Mart, America's largest employer, works very hard at union-busting. Please see the report "Discounting Rights - Wal-Mart's Violation of US Workers' Right to Freedom of Association" at the Human Rights Watch website. I provide a hyperlink for your convienience:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2007/04/30/discounting-rights
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Okay Guest, here it is. All you have to do is Google Illinois ball bearing company dishes out $6.6 million in bonuses and you will find it.
Illinois ball bearing company dishes out $6.6 million in bonuses
The Associated Press
Friday, November 28th 2008, 10:36 PM
CHICAGO - Employees at the Peer Bearing Co. received $6.6 million in year-end bonuses - from the family that recently sold the company.
The Spungen family, the former owners of the Waukegan, Ill.-based ball bearings maker, threw a party in mid-September to celebrate the company's acquisition by a Swedish company.
Each of Peer's 230 employees received an envelope containing a check decided by a formula based on each worker's years of service.
Some received checks up to $35,000.
"My grandfather was always charitable," said Danny Spungen, grandson of Peer founder Nathan Spungen.
He said Laurence and Florence Spungen and their four children decided on a bonus formula a year before the acquisition closed.
Family members signed two thank-you cards to each employee, one in Spanish and one in English, expressing gratitude for "the loyalty and hard work of our employees over the years."
"They treated us like extended family," said Maria Dima, who works at the company along with her husband, Valentin. "We won the lottery."
On the day the checks were distributed, Valentin Dima watched as co-workers broke down in tears over their bonus checks.
He drove home first, then opened his envelope: $33,000. His wife received a check for a smaller amount, and the two Romanian immigrants have since taken a Caribbean cruise to celebrate.
"This company gave us stability, so we dare to spend some money on such a thing," Valentin Dima said.
I don't think I ever said unions create abuse but they can be abusive! Slashing tires...abusive. Protesting non-union workers building Woodman's in Appleton...abusive. I am trying to be civil with you (sorry Steve if my posts were getting out of hand) but it is like you have not read anything I have posted. I am not going to get into an argument about Wal-mart...as I said I don't know enough about the case and as stated above THE LAWS HAVE WORKED AND THE WORKERS WILL RECIEVE WHAT THEY ARE OWED. What you are trying to ask me I have written about in the above posts. Re-read what you have posted and then my responses...you even admit that you didn't phrase your banding together comment correctly in which I responded appropriately as you wrote it.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| My mistake, I did phrase it as unions create abuses. | |
| | |
| Rich S - 12/1/2008 12:58 PM
Guest-Okay RNT, once again I'll ask you nicely, again. Please direct me to the source for your assertion that "unions create abuses".
Well, if you call causing innocent people to lose their job abuse...
When General Motors' Saturn plant was opened amid the cornfields of Spring Hill, Tenn., in 1990, it was billed as a kind of corporate nirvana where a folksy labor force and enlightened managers would happily work to produce some of the best darn American cars on the road. The plant represented a unified front against growing Japanese imports and offered the broader prospect of peace between GM and the United Auto Workers. But last week the seething revolt that started at two GM parts plants in old-fashioned Flint, Mich., spread to this Southern paradise. The Flint strike shut off critical parts to the company, forcing the closure of 26 assembly plants and 100 component factories across North America and idling 186,000 workers. The strike is weighing on the economy too, contributing to a 0.6% drop in industrial output in June. The Saturn factory is the only GM plant in the U.S. still turning out cars. -Time magazine 2001
I found the Time Magazine piece you quoted here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,139629,00.html
I read it, too, and several other pieces about the Flint strike in 1998.
In my opinion, based on what I've read so far, GM provoked the strike by excluding the UAW from any negotiations on its plan to accelerate global restructuring. They were fighting for job security as GM was pumping billion$ in profits, made from the sweat of their labor, to oversees projects that would ultimately lead to many jobs lost.
While researching this topic, I didn't find any comments from any workers or representatives from the 26 closed assembly plants, 100 closed component factories across North America, or the 186,000 idling workers. Not one. I would guess they supported the strike, which lasted 54 days, and apparently was perceived as a victory for workers around the world.
You implied that the UAW was abusive in the case of the 1998 Flint strike because it caused "inoccent people to lose their job". Are you one of people who supposedly felt abused?
Can you please direct me to any of those workers who were not UAW members during the 1998 strike who temporarily or permanently lost their jobs and felt abused?
Seriously.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Why would or should a company allow a union to help dictate the direction the owners and stockholders want to go? Last time I looked the union is not management or owners, and none of them hold a MBA nor where any union members hired for their savvy business skills, so if the union wants that type of power they should pool their money and buy the company. | |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 12/1/2008 5:38 PM
Okay Guest, here it is. All you have to do is Google Illinois ball bearing company dishes out $6.6 million in bonuses and you will find it.
Illinois ball bearing company dishes out $6.6 million in bonuses
The Associated Press
Friday, November 28th 2008, 10:36 PM
CHICAGO - Employees at the Peer Bearing Co. received $6.6 million in year-end bonuses - from the family that recently sold the company.
The Spungen family, the former owners of the Waukegan, Ill.-based ball bearings maker, threw a party in mid-September to celebrate the company's acquisition by a Swedish company.
Each of Peer's 230 employees received an envelope containing a check decided by a formula based on each worker's years of service.
Some received checks up to $35,000.
"My grandfather was always charitable," said Danny Spungen, grandson of Peer founder Nathan Spungen.
He said Laurence and Florence Spungen and their four children decided on a bonus formula a year before the acquisition closed.
Family members signed two thank-you cards to each employee, one in Spanish and one in English, expressing gratitude for "the loyalty and hard work of our employees over the years."
"They treated us like extended family," said Maria Dima, who works at the company along with her husband, Valentin. "We won the lottery."
On the day the checks were distributed, Valentin Dima watched as co-workers broke down in tears over their bonus checks.
He drove home first, then opened his envelope: $33,000. His wife received a check for a smaller amount, and the two Romanian immigrants have since taken a Caribbean cruise to celebrate.
"This company gave us stability, so we dare to spend some money on such a thing," Valentin Dima said.
EF Swagee (aka Guest) --------Thanks for posting that remarkable story. I do think it's an exception rather than a rule. I know don't get out too much, but I can't say I've ever heard of that type of owner / employee generosity.
I don't think I ever said unions create abuse but they can be abusive! Slashing tires...abusive. Protesting non-union workers building Woodman's in Appleton...abusive. I am trying to be civil with you (sorry Steve if my posts were getting out of hand) but it is like you have not read anything I have posted. I am not going to get into an argument about Wal-mart...as I said I don't know enough about the case and as stated above THE LAWS HAVE WORKED AND THE WORKERS WILL RECIEVE WHAT THEY ARE OWED. What you are trying to ask me I have written about in the above posts. Re-read what you have posted and then my responses...you even admit that you didn't phrase your banding together comment correctly in which I responded appropriately as you wrote it.
EF Swagee (aka Guest)------------Dude, with all due respect, I'll agree that slashing someone's tires is abusive, but it wasn't a union that did the slashing. I'll assume the protest you're talking about was peaceful. If so, it most certainly was not abusive. One great thing about this country is our freedom to peaceably assemble and express our opinions. Exercising that freedom is vital to democracy. I'll apologize in advance if the protest you're talking about does not fit into the peaceable assembly, lawful, freedom of expression, example of democracy catagory.
The Wal-Mart case is absolutely relevant to our discussion here. You're arguing against workers unions and I'm advocating for them, mainly because I see unions as a necessary means to negotiate fair wages, safe working conditions, and to provide a sort of checks and balances mechanism to help reduce abusive actions by company owners against employees.
Yes, labor laws are in place, but they are weak in many areas. That is why I continue to cite the Wal-Mart case!
| |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 12/1/2008 7:23 PM
Why would or should a company allow a union to help dictate the direction the owners and stockholders want to go? Last time I looked the union is not management or owners, and none of them hold a MBA nor where any union members hired for their savvy business skills, so if the union wants that type of power they should pool their money and buy the company.
EF Swagee (aka Guest) --------- Uh, maybe out of respect for the fact that the billions in profit that were made would not have been possible without the efforts of the labor force. And, maybe out of compassion for fellow Americans. Or, maybe even out of generosity, kinda like the IL ball-bearing company owners giving away all that money to their employees... | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| EF Swagee, There are many cases like the bearing company. I am not arguing against unions, as I said some people love them but wouldn't work in a shop that requires me to join one. I am arguing about using my tax money to prop up an industry when the union in that industry is the primary problem.
Fair wages are all around. I get paid a nice wage that is only $6 lower than my union counterparts with very nice benefits. I don't have to surrender part of my income just to work there like a union member does, I have a good chance to work up to management and make more money than I could in a union, I get a good vacation package and can take off for any reason that I feel I need to. And I don't have to for-go my pay and job to picket the company because some of the people there believe they are owed everything.
Wal-Mart is in business for a reason, to offer lower prices on products and most union workers shop at Wal-mart for that exact reason. There has to be lower paying jobs for an economy to work properly. If an adult with a family takes a job that was waged out for a teenager then that person has to work with it. What type of prices and inflation do you think I want to pay if every job was a union job? Union people don't even necessarily support union workers. Most of the union workers I know of take their vehicle to Wal-Mart for their oil changes because the union worker at the dealership adds too much on to the oil change. AWU members won't even buy the cars they make at the normal selling price, they negotiated a sweet deal price with the companies.
There is absolutely no reason the work force has any business in the decisions on how to operate the company, that is reserved for the owners and stockholders...the ones who put their money on the line to give you the job in the first place. That job you have is not yours and you don't have a right to it. That job is the owners and it is at their discretion that they let you have it.
Edited by RedNeckTech 12/1/2008 8:10 PM
| |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 12/1/2008 8:06 PM
EF Swagee, There are many cases like the bearing company. I am not arguing against unions, as I said some people love them but wouldn't work in a shop that requires me to join one. I am arguing about using my tax money to prop up an industry when the union in that industry is the primary problem.
Fair wages are all around. I get paid a nice wage that is only $6 lower than my union counterparts with very nice benefits. I don't have to surrender part of my income just to work there like a union member does, I have a good chance to work up to management and make more money than I could in a union, I get a good vacation package and can take off for any reason that I feel I need to. And I don't have to for-go my pay and job to picket the company because some of the people there believe they are owed everything.
Wal-Mart is in business for a reason, to offer lower prices on products and most union workers shop at Wal-mart for that exact reason. There has to be lower paying jobs for an economy to work properly. If an adult with a family takes a job that was waged out for a teenager then that person has to work with it. What type of prices and inflation do you think I want to pay if every job was a union job? Union people don't even necessarily support union workers. Most of the union workers I know of take their vehicle to Wal-Mart for their oil changes because the union worker at the dealership adds too much on to the oil change. AWU members won't even buy the cars they make at the normal selling price, they negotiated a sweet deal price with the companies.
There is absolutely no reason the work force has any business in the decisions on how to operate the company, that is reserved for the owners and stockholders...the ones who put their money on the line to give you the job in the first place. That job you have is not yours and you don't have a right to it. That job is the owners and it is at their discretion that they let you have it.
Why would you say the union is the primary cause? As I pointed out before, legacy costs are the "problem" and the sole remaining difference in costs, and that's down to less than 5%, almost equal in Chryslers case. It's really hard for any business or union to look 30-40 years out in the future in an industry that's barely 100 years old. Decisions were made to give people who dedicated their entire working lives to a single company, benefit for doing so. Can you fault that? The foriegn manufacturers will be experiencing the same costs, but not for another 20 years. Can you fault the unions for making every attemp to preserve those benefits? The union plays an important role even beyond your working years! The retirees were promised paid healthcare for life. Due to unforseen costs, they are now paying for part of it as part of union and non-union concessions. Retirees have no recourse to go back and cancel the deal. Their time is already in and not refundable, yet are victims of ever-changing unforseen times.
This coming from a person who has never been part of a union, and has been called a scab for filling a non-union quota position. I have seen the good and bad points of unions, but in no way should they be eliminated or shoulder the resposibility for the auto crisis. Granted, they do bear some responsibility for the crisis, but their elimination would be another step toward the elimination of the middle class.
Red, you say you make $21/hr and your union counterparts make $27/hr. What is your position that entitles you to a higher wage than auto line workers? I'm not demeaning your job, but you seem to imply that your wages are to high for auto workers? Do you realize that if your union counterparts weren't being paid $27/hr, you'd be making McDonalds wages!!!! Like it or not, no matter what your skills are! One last question, and an important one! What would you do if your employer asked you to drop to $7/ hour or ship you job to Mexico? Would you do it or walk? That is exactly the offer made to American Axle workers. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Big 3,
Can I fault the unions for making every attempt to preserve those benefits? When it drives the company into bankruptcy or into my pocket book..yes.
Have I been a scab and filled a non-union quota position...no.
What is my position that entitles me to a higher wage than auto line workers? I am not classified as un-skilled labor as 70% of the auto workers are.
Do I realize that if my union counterparts weren't being paid $27/hr, I'd be making McDonalds wages...no I wouldn't, I am worth the money I make...I don't make the union wages because they are the ones that climb skyscrapers to perform their job, I won't do that. That is why they decided to have a union and why they get paid more. The non-union jobs at my company where here long before the union came in and the wages were good back then.
What would I do if my employer asked me to drop to $7/ hour or ship my job to Mexico? That is not likely seeming my job is service but if they asked I would choose to look for other work.
| |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 12/1/2008 8:58 PM
Big 3,
Can I fault the unions for making every attempt to preserve those benefits? When it drives the company into bankruptcy or into my pocket book..yes.
Have I been a scab and filled a non-union quota position...no.
What is my position that entitles me to a higher wage than auto line workers? I am not classified as un-skilled labor as 70% of the auto workers are.
Do I realize that if my union counterparts weren't being paid $27/hr, I'd be making McDonalds wages...no I wouldn't, I am worth the money I make...I don't make the union wages because they are the ones that climb skyscrapers to perform their job, I won't do that. That is why they decided to have a union and why they get paid more. The non-union jobs at my company where here long before the union came in and the wages were good back then.
What would I do if my employer asked me to drop to $7/ hour or ship my job to Mexico? That is not likely seeming my job is service but if they asked I would choose to look for other work.
Well, you don't realize that if the unions don't preserve those retirement benefits paid for by the company, is IS coming out of your pocket book! The taxpayers cover pensions if the company goes bankrupt. All in that $2 trillion bill you get that I mentioned.
You are SADLY, VERY SADLY mistaken that you are worth the money you make when there's someone willing to do it for less money. Don't be arrogant and ignorant. If your employer could replace you for $15/hr, they would. Whether your job is imported or exported, this isn't the U.S. only economy for years ago you mention before the unions(thanks to consumers like you). Chico will do your job for $7, I'm sure. Those union wages keep yours up, like it or not. Remember, many of us may be looking for a job and can move to your area and displace you for less than what you make, but more than you propose to us!  I'm a chemical engineer making basically your wage after concessions we gave. If given the choice of $10/hr, I'm moving and coming to a town like yours, and so are many of my fellow qualified and skilled workers. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I am worth the money I get paid because the industry is willing to pay it. If there was a sudden increase of people who could do my job then my worth to the company shrinks. Simple supply and demand. My stand point is if my job field becomes to the point that I am not satisfied I move on...or I adjust my life to the new wage, either way it is my move. If you feel you can move to my area and displace me from my job more power to you and kudos. There would be an obvious reason my employer made that decision and I would have to move on. I don't have a right to my job and if the market allows that to happen then so be it.
That is the first I have heard of pensions being covered by taxpayers if a company goes bankrupt. My wife's career field is pensions and benefits and that is news to her also. Companies physically put the pension money into a fund that is illegal for that company to touch and pensions are drawn from that fund when the time is correct. No tax payer involvement.
| |
| | |
| See Red, another benefit of unions and lack of knowledge outside this area. They bargained for their pensions to be guranteed and insured. If they go bankrupt, the pensions are guaranteed under the Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 and insured by PBGC. Though under these circumstances, most will get about 50 cents on a dollar. Still better than the paper factory deal. If a massive claim was to fall on the PBGC and it couldn't be funded, which is GUARANTEED!!!! if any of the Big 3 go bankrupt, also taking into account stock market conditions which those funds are invested in, WE the taxpayers pick up the tab.
Plain and simple Red............. it boils down to this......if your contempt for the industry and unions is outweighs not floating a $25 billion loan, no matter who's at fault, more than paying 100x that amount in repercussions and can handle the $2 trillion bill, then write your represenatives and tell them. If not, then support the bridge loans. Simple choice. | |
| | |
| WALK! The competative edge is gone, automation has eliminated the need for many of those high paying jobs, go back to school and learn a new profession!
There are plenty of people lining up for those $7.00 an hour jobs that take little skill. Back in the day there were many people looking for those McDonalds jobs now we "want" what we don't "need" and quite frankly we are a society of "WANTS".
How many brands of shampoo are in your bathroom? How many brands of Cereal are in your cupboards? And better yet how many CARS are in your driveway?????? The market is saturated and new technology will bring more jobs, it just has to be funded and the right skilled worker will get that high paying job. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 538
| It may not be called backruptcy, but the conditions that lead to the 25 billion NOW and everyone knows a LOT later, will look a lot like it.
A loan now will not cut it and everyone knows it. This will be good money after bad without massive restructuring in labor, management, and suppliers. There will be plenty of pain to go around, but hopefully the industry can right itself.
In the days when there was no viable competition, the companies and unions could name their prices. That day has been over for many years. Recent contracts verifiy that many of the concerned have made some hard choices going forward, but, our new found crisis has made those good faith efforts insufficient.
Our government has made many mistakes to add the the current auto crisis, but the industry knew prior to 2008 that they had to make changes and unfortunately have now gotten caught in this finacial meltdown.
If this were my call, I would have them file backruptcy, which would expedite new arrangements and contracts and give them a ground zero from which to work.
Some government money would likely to needed because of the tightness of the credit markets. The day of reckoning is either now or in a year or two without trememdous adjustments. Likely cheaper to do it now than later.
Oh yeah, in answer to the original question, it appears that many stepped up.
Take care,
Jim O
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 744
| EF- You are certainly correct: If Wal-Mart had been union, there would have not been the issues, but not for the reason you stated. If Wal-Mart was union, it wouldn't be Wal-Mart. It wouldn't even exist. There's no way it could compete with the non-union competition. The law prevailed, wrongs were righted, and life goes on: all without the union. Unions helped fix the problems decades ago, but now, they have become the problem.
I base my viewpoints on knowledge I've learned from people I trust. Here's just one example: A fellow I worked with quit our place and went to a large, union shop. I ran into him several months later and we talked for a while. He told me it is unbelievable how things operate at his current job. He worked 2nd shift, in a small group of 5-6 guys. They would work "normally" for the first 3-1/2 hours of their 10 hour shift. They would meet their "quota" just by working those few hours, and they literally sat and read the paper, played cards, slept, etc. for the rest of the shift. The union was responsible for that "quota". That is just one of dozens of examples.
Edited by thumper 12/2/2008 4:51 AM
| |
| | |
| RedNeckTech - 12/1/2008 8:06 PM
EF Swagee, There are many cases like the bearing company. I am not arguing against unions, as I said some people love them but wouldn't work in a shop that requires me to join one. I am arguing about using my tax money to prop up an industry when the union in that industry is the primary problem.
Fair wages are all around. I get paid a nice wage that is only $6 lower than my union counterparts with very nice benefits. I don't have to surrender part of my income just to work there like a union member does, I have a good chance to work up to management and make more money than I could in a union, I get a good vacation package and can take off for any reason that I feel I need to. And I don't have to for-go my pay and job to picket the company because some of the people there believe they are owed everything.
Wal-Mart is in business for a reason, to offer lower prices on products and most union workers shop at Wal-mart for that exact reason. There has to be lower paying jobs for an economy to work properly. If an adult with a family takes a job that was waged out for a teenager then that person has to work with it. What type of prices and inflation do you think I want to pay if every job was a union job? Union people don't even necessarily support union workers. Most of the union workers I know of take their vehicle to Wal-Mart for their oil changes because the union worker at the dealership adds too much on to the oil change. AWU members won't even buy the cars they make at the normal selling price, they negotiated a sweet deal price with the companies.
There is absolutely no reason the work force has any business in the decisions on how to operate the company, that is reserved for the owners and stockholders...the ones who put their money on the line to give you the job in the first place. That job you have is not yours and you don't have a right to it. That job is the owners and it is at their discretion that they let you have it.
Well, RNT, I’ve got to hand it to you. I can see that, despite my efforts to arouse in you any empathy for fellow workers of the world, your loyalty to the exploiting class is un-wavering. That is commendable, albeit troubling.
I feel both glad and sad for you. I am glad that you’re content in your paradigm, with your $21hr wage, decent benefits, vacation time, and opportunity for advancement in your company. I dare say that you owe all of those privileges to the courageous workers who fought, and in many cases died, when they stood in the face of their exploiters and said, “NO MORE!” I’m not sure why, but at every opportunity during this discussion to stick up for your fellow working class members, you’ve chosen to support our rulers instead. For that, I am sad for you.
I wish to leave you with some facts that I hope will stimulate the deterioration of your self-importance:
From the article: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ibqxRYnbFgCrCxgLG_i57Bx4PXqA
Gap between rich, poor growing, OECD finds
Oct 21, 2008
BERLIN (AFP) — The gap between rich and poor has grown in most developed countries over the past 20 years, leading to an increase in child poverty, an organisation of 30 leading economies said in a report Tuesday.
"The gap between rich and poor has grown in more than three-quarters of OECD countries over the past two decades," said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), an influential policy forum for 30 top world economies.
Economic growth of recent decades had benefitted the rich more than the poor, it said in the report entitled "Growing Unequal: Income distribution and poverty in OECD countries."
Across the OECD countries, the average income of the richest 10 percent of people was, on average, "nearly nine times that of the poorest 10 percent."
Canada, Germany, Norway and the United States were most affected by the widening gap between rich and poor, while Greece, Mexico and Britain had seen a shrinking gap, the study found.
The danger of poverty was greatest in countries with the widest wage gap and lowest social mobility, it said.
~snip~
Children and young adults are now 25 percent more likely to be poor than the population as a whole.
~snip~
In the report, OECD Secretary General Angel Gurria warned of the dangers posed by inequality and the need for governments to tackle it.
"Growing inequality is divisive. It polarises societies, it divides regions within countries, and it carves up the world between rich and poor," he said.
"Greater income inequality stifles upward mobility between generations, making it harder for talented and hard-working people to get the rewards they deserve. Ignoring increasing inequality is not an option."
~snip~
Best of luck to you.
Sincerely,
EF Swagee | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | Nobody has denied the unions served a purpose back in the day but now that purpose has been fulfilled. Employees are now protected by law, OSHA etc.
As for the loan, would you borrow money to a company that lost 38.7 BILLION dollars in one year...last year?! It is like putting a bandaid on a severed limb. It will be delaying the inevitable. | |
| | |
| thumper - 12/2/2008 4:50 AM
EF- You are certainly correct: If Wal-Mart had been union, there would have not been the issues, but not for the reason you stated. If Wal-Mart was union, it wouldn't be Wal-Mart. It wouldn't even exist. There's no way it could compete with the non-union competition. The law prevailed, wrongs were righted, and life goes on: all without the union. Unions helped fix the problems decades ago, but now, they have become the problem.
EF Swagee------ I am not saying the problems of abuse would not have existed. I am saying they would've been addressed before six years elapsed and over two million violations happened. There is a significant difference. Workers should not have to endure that kind of abuse for that long. Nor should they have to resort to filing a lawsuit to defend their most *basic* rights. I thought you said that those types of problems were fixed decades ago by the unions? Obviously, they're not fixed, or else workers wouldn't have to fight in class action situations. Yes, yes, yes, the law prevailed. I get it. My point was/is, the [weak] law did not prevail for six years and before over two millions violations occurred.
EF Swagee----------- Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I hope. I assume we can agree on a few points concerning Wal-Mart; 1) It is America's largest employer, 2) It pays relatively low wages, 3) It is anti-union 4) It sells cheap products mostly produced by cheap labor in markets outside the U.S.
One of the biggest problems facing society, in my [questionable] judgment, is that *real* median wages are on the decrease, which leads to all sorts of negative consequences (see article on wage gap/poverty i posted in another response).
I am suggesting that wage earners working at Wal-Mart can't afford the American dream. In fact, the American dream is becoming more un-obtainable for more and more fellow working class members every day. Consumers can't afford to buy stuff that cost more than the cheap products sold at Wal-Mart. Meanwhile, the upper class gets smaller and richer and the lower class gets bigger and poorer.
Do you (and others reading this thread) find this problematic? If so, how should we address it? If not, why not? --------------
I base my viewpoints on knowledge I've learned from people I trust. Here's just one example: A fellow I worked with quit our place and went to a large, union shop. I ran into him several months later and we talked for a while. He told me it is unbelievable how things operate at his current job. He worked 2nd shift, in a small group of 5-6 guys. They would work "normally" for the first 3-1/2 hours of their 10 hour shift. They would meet their "quota" just by working those few hours, and they literally sat and read the paper, played cards, slept, etc. for the rest of the shift. The union was responsible for that "quota". That is just one of dozens of examples.
EF Swagee------------- On one hand, I object to the scenario you describe. When I consider that the company and the union worked together to make that deal, which I'm guessing was a compromise, then it doesn't seem so objectionable. I mean, the company still profits, right? How many hours of labor are the profiteers putting in? I'm talking about the ones who don't work, but reap profits produced by the workers?
I don't pretend that workers, union or non, do no wrong. I just think that a lot of us have a disturbing tendency, when contemplating economy-related issues, to point the finger of blame at fellow working class members. I am here to tell you, that we are pointing in the wrong direction-----------
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Rich S - 12/2/2008 7:16 AM Nobody has denied the unions served a purpose back in the day but now that purpose has been fulfilled. Employees are now protected by law, OSHA etc. I've been a passive observer on this thread until now. Rich, You have expressed my beliefs exactly. Unions were extremely needed years ago. I believe that they have out lived their purpose. As an educator I am forced (yes forced) to be a part of a union. If I had a choice (union has taken my choice away) I would not pay my dues or be associated with it. I agree with redneck, I would like to be payed and respected on my merit.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 744
| Thumper said - I base my viewpoints on knowledge I've learned from people I trust. Here's just one example: A fellow I worked with quit our place and went to a large, union shop. I ran into him several months later and we talked for a while. He told me it is unbelievable how things operate at his current job. He worked 2nd shift, in a small group of 5-6 guys. They would work "normally" for the first 3-1/2 hours of their 10 hour shift. They would meet their "quota" just by working those few hours, and they literally sat and read the paper, played cards, slept, etc. for the rest of the shift. The union was responsible for that "quota". That is just one of dozens of examples.
EF Swagee said- On one hand, I object to the scenario you describe. When I consider that the company and the union worked together to make that deal, which I'm guessing was a compromise, then it doesn't seem so objectionable. I mean, the company still profits, right? How many hours of labor are the profiteers putting in? I'm talking about the ones who don't work, but reap profits produced by the workers?
That remark says it all, in my opinion. I just told you SIX guys were working only 3-1/2 hours of a 10 hour shift, and your response is "THE COMPANY IS STILL MAKING MONEY SO IT'S OK"
That, my friend sums it all up in one sentence. Thank you for finally bringing it out. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1656
| The irony of Walmart being mentioned in a union debate.
"Made in China" is where it's at. And then complain about American outsourcing in the next sentence. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | Lol, now that is funny!
Dennis, being forced to be part of the union is another problem I have with the "current" unions. I find it very hypocritical that it is mandatory. Too bad you could not strike against the union:) I would be willing to bet the next generation will not have this problem as unions are slowly dissapearing. Companies just don't have to put up with them in this day and age. There are other places to go. It sucks for the employees that will lose their jobs and benefits but right or wrong, this is the next step for capitolism. I feel in the long run this will turn out positive. The big three will survive after major restucturing and once again American vehicles will be something we can be proud of. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1656
| Here's an interesting video, put out by Detnews.
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189 | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | I might have to consider adding Ford to my portfolio after watching that video! I love the fact the uniforms are the same for everyone and they all eat together. Lots of smiling faces there. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Jayman, You just gave me a video that I can use in my engineering course when we discuss automation and computer aided manufacturing. Thank You! Never thought that I would see the day when I got teaching material from a fishing web site.
Thumper, I agree with your analogy 100%. Your example of working 3 1/2 hours during a 10 hour shift hit the nail on the head.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1656
| Now that the focus has been on the auto industry and manufacturing unions. Shall we bridge the gap and discuss teacher unions, construction unions, and engineering unions and any others?
The world is not black and white.
Dennis, on a side note, Automation and Computer aided manufacturing. I work with some real robots if you ever up for a field trip. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | jaymon that video shows exactly what i was talking about in a earlier post and what we could have and should in our country. Change can be hard for humans but is needed! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | Sunshine - 12/2/2008 7:54 AM . As an educator I am forced (yes forced) to be a part of a union. If I had a choice (union has taken my choice away) I would not pay my dues or be associated with it. Sorry, but you DID have a choice when you chose your profession and you DO have a choice now -- find a different job. You could even stay in the same field - most private school teaching positions aren't unionized; those in higher-ed teaching positions are prohibited by law from forming unions in WI. If the anti-union people were consistent, they would recognize that the same suggestion they have for people that don't like their working conditions should be the same for those that don't want to be union members. Damn, and I was trying so hard to stay out of this. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I guess I would like to ask everyone, from both sides, a question.
Does the management of a company that moves jobs over seas, do so because they are 1-Not making money here because of the labor force, or 2-Are they moving the jobs over seas because they can make MORE MONEY because of the cheaper labor force or 3-are they simply trying to be price competitive with the producers from another country of the same product that is being shipped in and sold or less? With that answer, I think that everyone can then attack what is wrong and what needs to be done.
Attacking one another with out true facts will serve no one. For our work force to lower themselfs, wage wize, to the rest of the workers in the world is absurd. Opening up free trade with communist countries is also absurd. Get to the root of this whole problem. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 617
Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Sunshine - How does your job pay compared to a similar one at a catholic school?
Thumper - I completely agree that your former employee's situation is a joke. I guess my problem with situations like that is it takes two parties to come up with such STUPID contracts. What kind of an dimwitted manager would agree to a contract that says you can stop working with full pay once you reach your quota and then set the number so low? Kinda makes me wonder how long its going to be before the company loses its business to a place that actually knows how to manage its workforce. I'm sure it will be the union's fault when it happens....
No company is hostage to its unionized work force. Any company that would allow employees to sleep on the job has WAY bigger issues than a bad union contract. I firmly believe unions CAN still have a position influence on many sectors of the american economy today, but for that to happen, both unions and the management need to work together to establish common sense practices. My gut tells me that that won't happen and labor/management relations are going to take a BIG slide backwards in the coming years. | |
| | |
| this doesnt seem walleye fishing related this post should be moved or deleted | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Brad: It’s a guess but I would say that I am paid 30% to 50% more than a catholic school teacher. That comparison is a real stretch and an example of extremes. It’s hard to put enough money in the Sunday donation plate to pay salaries, retirement, and insurance. Stacker: Your answer is 1,2 and 3. Viking: Of course, in a theoretical sense you are right. We all have choices in life. If forced to, I could make the same decisions like Redneck had to make. Unfortunately, I’m too old and too close to retirement to pursue other dreams voluntarily (out side of fishing of course). Jayman: Yea, yea, let’s go after teacher unions. After all, they are the root of all evil economically in Wisconsin. And they only work 6 months out of the year | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Sunshine...
If you answered yes to all 3 then the problem is not with the union worker, it is with the greed of the owners as well as them taking advantage of policies that are in place for world trade. | |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | This post is 'life interests related' to those who frequent this website, all who are walleye anglers.As such, it's been a great discussion and should remain on the general discussion board. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | stacker - 12/2/2008 1:37 PM
Sunshine...
If you answered yes to all 3 then the problem is not with the union worker, it is with the greed of the owners as well as them taking advantage of policies that are in place for world trade.
OR maybe both:) (I would assume this is what Sunshine meant). Even a pro-union guy has to be able to see there are problems with the unions that need resolving...right?? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich, I am not for or against unions. Just had to ask some questions when it seemed all the blame was being put on the worker for getting to much coin. I honestly thought that if owners were not making money because of wages they would change that, or more like, they would have to immediatly change that or go under, instead it seems that the owners/stock holders just wanted to make more money. Greed
May as well bail out the auto companies as they did not do buisness correctly just like the greed of the banking industry did not. You live your life fiscally responsible and then a bailout comes to those..... well..... I will stop.
Edited by stacker 12/2/2008 2:25 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 625
Location: LaCrosse, WI | I work in the international shipping industry and have seen more outsourcing that most. I can tell you that a good percentage of the outsourcing is for one simple reason. Major exporters often can cut costs by manufacturing goods closer to final destinations. Ocean/Air freight is terribly expensive but inland trucking can be much less expensive. You can truck goods pretty much anywhere in Asia/Europe or the middle east if it’s produced overseas.
Cheaper wages are a consideration, but paying a few hundred dollars to move a full truckload versus a few thousand to move it by ocean container is a pretty attractive offer for the manufacturers. This is a big part of the reason we see so many “Big Name” companies send their lines overseas. In many cases, the American sales only make up 10-25% of their sales. They have better access to affordable logistics in Europe/Asia. Many of you will tell me that’s not a consideration, but I know for a fact it is, I deal with this every day.
Many of our customers allocate 30-40% of their production budgets to logistics. That’s a pretty big percentage that you can cut drastically by relocating. I’m not saying I agree with it, but I don’t think you can say every company that ever outsource a line is doing it because of wages. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | I hope that the big 3 can come up with a plan to make themselves profitable so that the bail out can be justified. It would be awfully foolish to give our money to a company that continually loses money. We all have our ideas as to why they lose money (and a union workers hourly wage is not anywhere near the top of my list).
I am out of this conversation and I wish everyone invloved the best of luck and that includes all of us. Hopefully no friendships were lost in this discussion (and by that I mean I hope you still love me). | |
| | |
| Obviously the trend here with this forum is for a non-union country. Sunshine, on your next contract renewal, why don't you vote against it? Why don't you try and quit paying union dues and tell them that you want out. Don't accept your next raise. ANYONE of the non-union guys can sit sit here and say how the expense the union worker has... blasted our economy ! just like one of the posts said, alot of our products are, most of our products are shipped overseas. Ever seen a Pepsi in Japan , funny how 75% of Europe brushes thier teeth with Crest, etc etc. You guys are literaly trying to talk yourselves out of jobs. What happened to the american way. Good wages, new car, new clothes, good healthcare, etc. Lets try and convince all the american business owners that we should get paid on merit...let's keep talking ourselves into smaller wages, if you guys aren't happy with your jobs, then become trained or educated in another field. You can blame unions all you want, were shooting ourselves in the foot already. What about bus drivers unions, police unions, firefighter/paramedic unions, nursing unions, highway dept unions, you guys are so focused on PRODUCTION unions that your missing the boat on the real problem. Just because the BIG THREE are in trouble doesn't mean UNION WORKERS are the blame, look outside the box. So China is successful.. correct?
Ever been in a hotel room in China ? 5x8 YEP Wanna live in a 40 story apartment with 4000 people FINE. Imagine our country 7 times the population? More cars to Buy...maybe???? LETS THINK ABOUT THE OTHER REAL PROBLEMS HERE. MR GAS STATION OWNER OR RESTAURANT OWNER COMES OVER HERE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY AND GETS THE LOAN That US CITIZENS ARE TURNED DOWN FOR. THEN HE EMPLOYS only HIS FAMILY. THEY DONT PAY INCOME TAX FOR SEVEN YEARS....HELLO WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY! Where is the equality there. Regardless if we are union people or not, we still pay the same taxes for the same things, don't envy your neighbor. | |
| | |
| OK sunshine and rich, don't fall off your chairs but guess what, I totally agree with you both!!!!!The only thing more like a dinosaur than the auto companies are the unions of this country. None of them have evolved, using the same ole tactics and mentalities as always, threatening people, bullying, strikes, slashing tires and all along not realizing the wolrd has changed. Pompous attitude that no one else should have to compete with US. As the rest of the world evolved and blew by they stood still. Bless them for all they did for many years to make the dream come true but it's time to wake up and become more advnced, use dues to hire law firms that specialize in labor relations instead of putting some idiot pounding hist fist on a table threatening to strike in front of management.
Oh by the way thanks for someone finally breaking the boredom with a new "fighting" topic. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| EF Swagee/guest....It is nice for me to know that because I don't want to be part of a union I am exploiting and have no empathy. Your frame of mind on this is exactly why I don't want to be in a union. I personally am getting tired of this country being compared to China with the inferred statement that without unions we will turn into China. If you think teacher's unions, police, city, highway unions are doing no wrong then I deplore you to pay my tax bill for me. The main thing I see that unions do today is raise the price of goods. I went to a trade show in Las Vegas and I had to pay a union worker $250 to carry two boxes I had to my booth (I was forbidden to carry it myself) and I had to pay another $350 to have a union guy plug an extension cord into an outlet for me (again I was forbidden to do it myself) Don't tell me unions have not gotten out of control. Unions are no longer about poor working conditions or a modest wage.
You act like getting paid on merit is a bad thing. Most non-union people I know could out-perform union members easily and it is all because of the mind set. I am not in fear of loosing my job to someone else but it sure is ironic that unions are constantly scared of loosing their jobs to others, why is that? Unions keep shrinking because they do not operate in the manner they were first started for, I honestly seems that the only thing I hear unions doing lately is whine on how $40 an hour and close to free healthcare along with safe working conditions are not enough. If unions would be concerned about the things they were about 50-60 years ago I would support them but they are not because those issues have been resolved.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 921
Location: Manitowoc, WI | RNT, please refrain from using snide comments about union personnel. I am a union member and am proud of what I do. Your snide comments about union personnel are starting to offend me. If you think anyone can do the work of a skilled union person, I challenge them to come replace me. Like Sworral said, keep it unpersonal and clean for further discussion to continue. I don't know you so I will not judge you. I just want to make it clear that you are starting to offend me. Nothing personal, let's just keep our opinions to ourselves. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Horshak, There may be one line in the last post that I did not phrase well...my fault. Question though, I have been trying to relay the way I see the situation and the way I look at life but there was a line that drew your attention. Why didn't the remarks aimed at me like "empathy for fellow workers", "your loyalty to exploiting" and "contempt for unions" draw the same criticism? Are these not snide also? Am I not to be offended by the way myself and other non-union workers are being portrayed?
Edited by RedNeckTech 12/2/2008 8:37 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Just a few more Horshak, here are other comments directed at me:
don't have empathy
DINOSAUR BRAIN Mentality
anti-unionist
a scab for filling a non-union quota position
arrogant and ignorant
this isn't the U.S. only economy for years ago you mention before the unions(thanks to consumers like you).
your contempt for the industry and unions
you’re content in your paradigm
at every opportunity during this discussion to stick up for your fellow working class members, you’ve chosen to support our rulers instead
Seeming these are all snide and directed to me and non-union workers why does this not bother you? I never scabed or even said I did, I have been sticking up for other workers, I don't have contempt for unions, I don't have a prehistoric brain, I'm not sure why you were offended I can only guess that it was one sentence. Why the double standard?
Edited by RedNeckTech 12/2/2008 9:22 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 921
Location: Manitowoc, WI | No double standard from me. I am just tired of stereotyping us union people. If you are offended with the things other people said, let them know. I don't believe I made any snide comments towards you or your profession. If I did, it was unintentional and I apologize. Let's end it at that. Good luck in your future. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| No you did not make any snide remarks towards me Horshak. At time a debate can get quite spirited. | |
| | |
| Back to something closer to the original issue
In Alabama, nonunion auto manufacturers are doing better than those located in heavily unionized states
Saturday, October 04, 2008
THE ISSUE: In Alabama, nonunion auto manufacturers are doing better than those in heavily unionized states, so there's not much reason to sign up.
If organized labor is looking at a shaky economy as an opportunity to elbow into Alabama's auto manufacturing industry, union bosses must be reading their own propaganda.
A bad economy would be the worst time for workers at Alabama's three major auto plants - Mercedes in Vance, Honda in Lincoln and Hyundai in Montgomery - to look for the union label.
These are difficult times for auto manufacturers all over the nation, and Alabama is no different. With car building a relatively new industry in the state, this is the first serious economic challenge. But even with the downturn, Alabama's manufacturing plants are doing better than many others.
Mercedes has cut production to bring the number of vehicles produced more in line with decreased demand.
Honda also has trimmed production, but is bringing new models to the plant in Lincoln.
Hyundai has not announced any cutbacks, but if demand continues to weaken, production cuts at the assembly plant are a good bet.
Yet, none of the companies has laid off any employees in Alabama.
The argument by organized labor that union membership will assure Alabama auto workers job protection is undercut by the layoffs and closings at auto assembly plants elsewhere, especially in the heavily unionized Midwestern rust belt. Those union jobs are hardly secure.
Unions have a better shot at organizing a plant if workers are upset about working conditions, pay or job security. There are no serious complaints about working conditions or pay at the Alabama plants. With the economy limping along, there can be no absolute job guarantees. That would be the situation whether auto manufacturers run union or nonunion shops.
The real risk - to unionizing auto manufacturing plants and many other businesses in Alabama and across the nation - is the misguided and misnamed Employee Free Choice Act being pushed by Democrats in Congress.
Under that bill, which has little chance of passing this year, but will surely be a top priority of the next Congress, workers would be prevented from using a secret-ballot election to certify a union. If a majority of workers sign cards saying they want a union, the union will be certified.
With no secret ballot, union leaders could intimidate workers into signing the card. Just as elsewhere, peer pressure can be powerful in the workplace, too.
Voters shouldn't have to explain their ballot in the presidential election, a governor's election or a union election. That's why in the United States we cherish the secret ballot. People should be allowed to vote their conscience without pressure, as the secret ballot guarantees.
| |
| | |
| The reason I joined this discussion is because I am very concerned about human rights. Fellow working-class human beings in the U.S. and all around the world are being abused in the workplace. (To be clear, when I use the phrase "working-class", I mean anyone of us who is forced to sell our labor and collect a paycheck to survive).
It's been argued that today's labor laws effectively replace workers' rights protections that unions provide. With sincere and all due respect to those who maintain that position, I humbly suggest that your argument is weak, at best.
I know there are problems with existing unions, particularly auto unions. I won't argue that.
I will argue, to my grave, that all people should enjoy the freedom of association, freedom of speech, and freedom to peaceably assemble, to secure a fair wage and non-abusive working conditions.
When I bother to look outside my own little existance, I see my fellow human beings and working class members subjected to outrageous abuses, even though [weak] labor laws are in place. Unions are still very much needed in this day and age to help put a stop rights violations.
To support my opinion, I offer the following articles:
U.S. violates worker rights: world labor body
GENEVA (Reuters) - The global labor union grouping (ITUC) accused the United States on Monday of violating a wide range of workers' rights and allowing the existence of a "huge union-busting industry".
In a report sent to Geneva from its Brussels headquarters the International Trade Union Confederation said many U.S. workers were denied the right to organize into unions while child labor was not effectively tackled.
"The U.S. administration, rather than leading the way on the protection of working people and on decent pay and conditions, has been intent on denying the freedom to join a union and bargain collectively to millions of workers," the ITUC said.
"This hurts America's working people and has a negative impact on workers' rights in other countries as well," said the grouping's General Secretary Guy Ryder.
(source: http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USL0963879920080609 )
Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops
American importers have long answered criticism of conditions at their Chinese suppliers with labor rules and inspections. But many factories have just gotten better at concealing abuses
(source: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm )
Despite a decade of criticism, worker abuse persists in China
Nearly a decade after some of the most powerful companies in the world — often under considerable criticism and consumer pressure — began an effort to eliminate sweatshop labor conditions in Asia, worker abuse is still commonplace in many of the Chinese factories that supply Western companies, according to labor rights groups.
The groups say some Chinese companies routinely shortchange their employees on wages, withhold health benefits and expose their workers to dangerous machinery and harmful chemicals, like lead, cadmium and mercury. (source: http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=9028448 )
Report alleges abuse in Asia shrimp industry
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Workers in Southeast Asia's shrimp industry suffer regular abuse and sometimes live in what amounts to virtual slavery, a human-rights organization said Wednesday.
Sexual and physical abuse, debt bondage, child labor and unsafe working conditions are common in Thailand and Bangladesh's shrimp processing factories, the Solidarity Center said in a 40-page report. (source: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/23/shrimp.workers.report/i... )
Meat industry attacked for human rights abuses
By Susan S. Lang, Cornell Chronicle
Working conditions in the U.S. meat and poultry industry are so hazardous and the tactics that employers use to prevent workers from organizing so threatening that the industry consistently violates basic human rights. That is the conclusion of a Cornell labor law expert in a report for Human Rights Watch. "In sum, the United States is failing to meet its obligations under international human rights standards to protect the human rights of meat and poultry industry workers," writes Lance Compa, who teaches courses in U.S. labor law and international labor rights at Cornell's School of Industrial and Labor Relations, in the report.
"Workers in American beef, pork and poultry slaughtering and processing plants, many of whom are immigrants, perform dangerous, physically demanding and exhausting jobs in bloody, greasy surroundings. The workers not only contend with abuses and an unprecedented volume and pace in sawing and cutting carcasses, but they also experience constant fear and risk, not only for their health and safety but for their jobs if they get hurt or attempt to organize," says Compa. (source: http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/05/2.3.05/meat_industry.html )
Ecuador: Widespread Labor Abuse on Banana Plantations
Harmful Child Labor, Anti-Union Bias Plague Industry
Banana workers in Ecuador are the victims of serious human rights abuses, Human Rights Watch charged in a new report released today.
In its investigation, Human Rights Watch found that Ecuadorian children as young as eight work on banana plantations in hazardous conditions, while adult workers fear firing if they try to exercise their right to organize. Ecuador is the world’s largest banana exporter and the source of roughly one quarter of all bananas on the tables of U.S. and European consumers.
(source: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2002/04/24/ecuador-widespread-labor-abus... )
| |
| | |
| Ef, some interesting reading for sure, thanks for sharing, although I wonder if those "human rights" violations are that big of a problem here in the US? The only article you list pertains to the meat processing industry, I am sure there have been fines and violations as well. Also the population of the workforce is primarily imigrant labor in many of those companies. Obviously they are entiled to the same human rights as others but wouldn't we all be better off addressing the "illegals" first before allowing them to band together and join or form unions? Subsequently raising the prices we pay for goods? These low skilled jobs are the ones in jeopardy and quite frankly are the ones most "Americans" don't want. Simply put the Unions have created an environment of Greed themselves, I know many in these unions that are paid exhorbanant amounts of money to sit on their arses to watch a machine run. One particular individual in my family made $112,000.00 last year driving a tow motor thanks to the unions and all the overtime he was able to accept. $75.00/hr on Holidays? Great negotiating skills for sure! Now that should put a sour taste in everyones mouth. Is that REALLY a reasonable wage for the midwest? No wonder the paper industry fell apart! Where is their "bailout"? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1656
| Jayman:
"Yea, yea, let’s go after teacher unions. After all, they are the root of all evil economically in Wisconsin. And they only work 6 months out of the year "
6 months? don't oversell yourself we know it's more like 3-1/2 months out of 10 scheduled
Mashall, I respectfully disagree with your shipping assesment. I appreciate your understand of logistics, but please explain China's decellerating economy and you'll understand outsourceing more.
As for union argument, I think there is too much generalization within these debates. Every union is different, it's bargained as such. Some unions protect slugs that most of you don't like and other unioins are very efficient skilled labors, where if you don't cut the mustard, guess what? You don't have a job very long. I've seen and worked with both extremes. | |
| | |
| Paper Guru - 12/3/2008 10:19 AM
Ef, some interesting reading for sure, thanks for sharing, although I wonder if those "human rights" violations are that big of a problem here in the US? The only article you list pertains to the meat processing industry, I am sure there have been fines and violations as well. Also the population of the workforce is primarily imigrant labor in many of those companies. Obviously they are entiled to the same human rights as others but wouldn't we all be better off addressing the "illegals" first before allowing them to band together and join or form unions? Subsequently raising the prices we pay for goods? These low skilled jobs are the ones in jeopardy and quite frankly are the ones most "Americans" don't want. Simply put the Unions have created an environment of Greed themselves, I know many in these unions that are paid exhorbanant amounts of money to sit on their arses to watch a machine run. One particular individual in my family made $112,000.00 last year driving a tow motor thanks to the unions and all the overtime he was able to accept. $75.00/hr on Holidays? Great negotiating skills for sure! Now that should put a sour taste in everyones mouth. Is that REALLY a reasonable wage for the midwest? No wonder the paper industry fell apart! Where is their "bailout"?
Here is more evidence of U.S. employers violating basic workers rights:
Students investigate worker rights violations
By Sara Bruestle , February 7, 2008
Student delegates from 14 major U.S. universities, including the UW, conducted a three-day investigation in response to complaints of worker rights violations at the New Era Cap Co. facility in Mobile, Ala., in mid-January.
New Era, which has been accused of discrimination and providing unsafe and unsanitary conditions for their workers, produces baseball caps with collegiate logos for the UW and several other universities.
(source: http://dailyuw.com/2008/2/7/students-investigate-worker-rights-viol... )
_______________
Why are Workers' Rights Violations So Rampant?
The right to form a union and collectively bargain is a basic right, recognized by U.S. federal law since 1935 and universally recognized and protected around the world. So why is it that over 20,000 workers are fired or discriminated against each year for union activities in this country?1 One reason workers’ rights violations are so widespread is because the American labor law system offers terribly weak punishments.
American Employers Face No Effective Reprisals for Violating Workers’ Rights
A Slap on the Wrist: If an employer is found guilty of violating labor law, the typical remedy is ordering the employer to post a notice in the workplace promising not to break the law.
No Punitive Damages: Employers that illegally fire workers for union activity are not required to pay fines or damages. The law just requires a worker’s lost earnings to be repaid, minus whatever amount the worker earned in the interim.
Bargain Prices: In 2003, the average “backpay” award for a worker was $3,800.2 Human Rights Watch has assessed that employers are aware that an order to pay backpay is a “small price to pay to destroy a workers’ organizing effort by firing its leaders.”3
No Three-Strikes Law: Repeat violations can continue indefinitely because the NLRA does not provide for tougher penalties for repeat violators, in contrast to OSHA, EPA and other governmental agencies.
Technicalities: The government turns a blind eye to behavior undermining the intention of the law. 75% of employers hire consultants during organizing drives.4 These “unionbusting” consultants help companies implement legal tactics to thwart workers’ rights to organize without technically breaking the law.
Workers’ Rights Violations Escalate With Ineffective Laws
Auto maintenance service workers employed by U-Haul in Nevada experienced first-hand the inadequacy of labor law remedies. Workers at two facilities sought to form a union with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (Machinists) to improve working conditions and wages and benefits.
( source: http://www.americanrightsatwork.org/publications/general/why-are-wo... )
___________________________
Suit Says 18 Companies Conspired to Violate Sweatshop Workers' Civil Rights
Apparel workers and human rights groups yesterday filed the biggest legal challenge ever against sweatshops on American soil, accusing Tommy Hilfiger, Sears, Roebuck & Company, Wal-Mart and other prominent companies of conspiring to place thousands of workers in involuntary servitude and otherwise mistreat them to hold down production costs.
The class-action litigation asserts that 18 American retailers and apparel companies engaged in a racketeering conspiracy with factory owners in the Northern Marianas Islands, an American commonwealth near the Philippines, to deprive the 15,000 apparel workers there of basic rights.
(source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9502E5DD1331F937A257...)
_______________________
Workers' Rights 'Under Fire' Worldwide
December 2, 2008
OneWorld US, OneWorld UK, AFL-CIO, International Trade Union Confederation, Online NewsHour, AFP
WASHINGTON, Dec 2 (OneWorld.net) - Workers organizing for their rights in all parts of the world continue to face government repression and, in some countries, violent persecution and murder, states an annual report by an international alliance of trade unions. Colombia, Guinea, and the United States were among the countries singled out by the report.
(source: http://us.oneworld.net/article/358850-workers-rights-repressed-colo... )
_______________
I think workers rights abuses here in the U.S. are more serious and more widespread than a lot of us realize. And, I would like this opportunity to express the idea that an injustice on one worker, whether in the U.S. or anywhere else, whether documented or un-documented, is an injustice on *all* workers. There is no good reason to tolerate any injustices against any of our fellow working-class members. When one suffers we all suffer.........
Sincerely,
EF Swagee
| |
| | |
| This could go on for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 744
| All this over one single letter....change the U to an O and we're all friends again. No one hates onions or thinks they are destroying the American workplace. .....Or are they? hmmmm.... | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | thumper - 12/3/2008 12:53 PM All this over one single letter....change the U to an O and we're all friends again. No one hates onions or thinks they are destroying the American workplace. .....Or are they? hmmmm.... I have to ask.... Do onions make Chuck Norris cry? | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | Chuck Norris makes onions cry
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 625
Location: LaCrosse, WI | Chinas decelerating economy can be blamed on many factors. I work with people in China on a daily basis, and I can tell you this, they are 100% dependant on the US. This effect is much more than just the Chinese items we purchase, it’s all about what the rest of the world sees Americans purchasing. Love it or hate it, the US is the golden standard to most countries in the world. The clothes we wear sell worldwide, the hot new items we purchase this Christmas will be the hot items in most countries this summer.
Chinas economy is also largely based on the extra few billion people in the country. There is no greater employment competition in the world than in modern day China. Why would companies pay higher wages when they can post an ad and have hundreds of educated well qualified candidates apply for every position? Chinas economy is in rough shape, there’s no doubt about it.
On that note, I will admit that some outsourcing is due to lower wages, but not the majority that most think. A lot of the lines I’ve seen moved in the last few years for logistical reasons tend to be large items like air conditioners, tractors etc… These items are very big and bulky and can cost a fortune to ship overseas. For a few hundred US dollars, you can truck an item almost anywhere in Asia, as compared to a few thousand to send a flat rack with the same air conditioner in an ocean container. You also cut out customs fees and duties.
As I said in my previous post, if a company is mainly exporting large items, it makes sense for them to manufacture those items closer to their customers. I don’t like it any more than any of you do, but we can’t continue to think that our wages drive every business decision ever made. The one positive that tends to come out of this, is the import business that the logistics industry gains back from the moves and the parts exports that usually come with it.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 63
| that might be the best chuck norris joke ive ever seen | |
| | |
| I know I am "hiding" behind my computer and all, but I think the horse is dead! | |
| | |
| Just FYI RNT. You might want to reread my post. You keep refering to me calling you a scab. If you read it again, you'll see that I was refering to work I, ME, MYSELF used to do. Not you. Apology accepted. 
Beyond that, I'm done arguing. It's pointless. You have your false information and steroetypes and it looks like you only get worse with debate. First you say $28/fr, now you're claiming workers make $40?? Ha Ha Ha. , where did you get that one? I've yet to meet an hourly worker making $40/hr. It might be different if you debated with facts, but you chose to keep believing false rumors, decades old issues, and misinformation. Hard to debate that. Good luck. Just remember we told you so when you see the effects after they fail.
And to those that keep saying the U.S. auto industry is outdated. You couldn't be more detached and uninformed. Just look at the statistics. Ford is head to head with the Japanese in quality. GM and Ford are as good or better on fuel economy with comparable Japanese models, and whips all the other imports. Who going to be first to the market with an all electric car? GM, with Ford and Chrysler right behind. Toyota and Honda are in a distant 4th and 5th. Chrysler is equal to Honda and Toyota in labor costs, even with a union and legacy costs. So, effectively, they're more cost efficient than both of them. GM and Ford will also be more cost efficient than the Japanese in 2010. Very close right now! And who's the worlds #1 producer? GM. Sure sounds far from outdated to me! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| You're right Big 3, I miss read what you wrote. Besides that you are far from being accurate on isues yourself. The average wage reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Do your research. You look at it one way, I another. Time to close.
Edited by RedNeckTech 12/3/2008 6:37 PM
| |
| | |
| The Rise and Fall of The Roman Empire, Read it and ask yourself who or what does
it remind you of. Last year 4% of elite families made as much half the country. On to "fairtrade". In 1988 while station in korea in order 4 a korean 2 buy a american made automobile they had 2 buy a 10,000 dollar korean saving bond.
MAKE IT IN AMERICA OR AMERICA WONT MAKE IT | |
| | |
| junk in your trunk american made | |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | ? | |
| | |
| I guess the patriotic thing for all of us to do is sell our Yamahas and buy Mercs... | |
| | |
| Ross Perot was right! That sucking sound we are hearing is the jobs leaving the US. | |
| | |
| Well, we got the word today that on Dec 9 our dept is essentially shut down. Out of a job.  No money even for r&d. Looks like the BRIDGE LOANS are not going to happen or fall short. Sad ending to the USA as we know it. From the greatest manufacturing country, to essentially a service and banking industry. I hope the constituents and congress are really happy and I hate to be spiteful, but I guess it is warranted since there's alot coming this way. All I know is that the next time the coasts get hit by a hurricane, the Mississippi or Illinois floods, or whatever disaster happens, I'm going to spend countless hours lobbying against any of my tax dollars going to help out people "who should have seen it coming", just like those people say about the auto industry. Ahhhhhhhh, the Divided States of America. What a sad ending.
Luckily, I saw it coming and took my little nest egg to grab a depressed property in northern Michigan from someone who lost their job before me. If I don't come across another job in 2 months, I'm walking away from my current house, tossing the mortgagel over to RNT's taxes, and going to live up there on unemployment until something breaks. Thanks again RNT. Enjoy the bill!!! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Boy Big 3, for someone who ended a debate you sure like poking a bear. If you need a job that bad come over here and I will get you one, just stop whining. Just pack up and leave your responsibilities and messes to others. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2445
Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | careful redneck, there will soon be 100,000 people knocking on yor door looking for a job. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| I'm actually being sincere. There will be job openings to be filled in early spring, I'm not sure what pay rate he would be looking for but I'll do my part to try to help. | |
| | |
| A confession.
I need financial help bad. I was a journeyman tinsmith at DELPHI where I spent 6 years in the UAW Jobs Bank making a 1360.00 check every week for doing NOTHING. I hunted and fished and built my son's house and my lakeside vacation retreat and all sorts of neat stuff and I didn't have to work one minute for 6 years. With 30 years of highly questionable service and including 3 plus years on sick leave, they offered to give me a 47,000 check and and 3000.00 dollar per month pension with 100% paid health care until I reach the age of 62 when my GM pension drops by the amount when My Sociial Security starts.
I am 54 year old and I have many payments and bills to pay plus I have 2 kids going to IVY League schools learning to be BIG TIME corporate attorneys.
I JUST CAN"T MAKE ON 3000.00 dollars per month or a pukey 750.00 per week and try to support myself and my wife, who is a school district honcho making another 112,00 per year.
My 2 year old new Ranger boat with a sweet 250 Yamaha, I can't sell nor can I get rid of my 2002 Class A motor home.
Would some of you guys like to send me some money to help a good guy get through these really rough times.
I sure hope the goverment auto bailout money comes through because I have a condo rented in Jamaica for the month of April. The wife and I really need a break since it has 6 months since we got back from Hawaii. Those 14 days on Maui was great and I did some really neat deep sea fishing. Gawd is that kind of fishing fun but it is too expensive for me. LOL.
Please help me out financially. I would do the same for you if you were in my terrible position.
Those naughty people who bash the UAW should just be ashamed of themselves, I deserve what I got from GM and everbody else is just jealous because I walked a picket line once for 4 hours until my back started hurting. When the strike was settled my back hurt so bad I went on sick leave so I could go mule deer hunting in Colorado. Those rich GM excutives can't screw me out of my dream hunting trip!
It sure feels nice to be retired but this money situation is really stressing me out.
Did I tell about the good deal I got on my 2007 Duramax diesel truck? Now the wife wants a new Hummer H2 because the YUKON Denali was wrecked when we hit a deer last month hunting in the Michigan's U.P. where our second home is located.
HEY Red NECK TECH.....can you spare a 100.00 a month till I get back on my feet?
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| My offer to someone on another forum was not a joke | |
| | |
| Red Neck Tech says:
My offer to someone on another forum was not a joke
To Red Neck Tech:
Nor was my plea for financial help from the fine folks here. ajoke! What part of my story do you think was a joke?
Ok I fibbed about my boat. I really have a 3 year old Skeeter with a 150 hp Yamaha and my My Duramax is a 2005.
BUT ALL THE OTHER THINGS I SAID WERE 100% TRUE.
The UAW made a lazy person out of me but what do I care? Everybody else at GM was milking the system so I just decided to "get my share".
Go ask any UAW member working at a GM plant or DELPHI?
I make more retired that 90% of you guys make working and I apologize to nobody. Because I have what you guys want does that make me a bad person? I never broke any laws did I?
| |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | Hoo Boy. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Hoo boy is right. | |
| | |
| Sounds like your proud of the fact that you made 1360.00 a week inflating the cost of the automobile by doing NOTHING. Its a no wonder guys like RNT feel the way they do! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 319
| Congrats Croton, you are a proud welfare recipient. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | maybe this is why the auto industry is hurting: http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html?taf=det | |
| | |
| Croton, you put your time in and deserve what you get! Obviously some people want more and don't have more and bash those that do. Free World Man! PS Certain people with union ties themselves should quit bashing them they have done alot for you! You know who you are....SS And yes I am still hiding behind my computer eye lunker! | |
| | |
| LOL...put his time in. Yup! Was not productive and did not contribute to the over all production but hot damn he surely put his time in! | |
| | |
| Like I said if you don't believe me ask Walleye Express about the GM/UAW pension amounts and buyout offers.
We are rich and the rest of America has to work.
Why do people hate me and Walleye Express so much? We are "gettin our share" legally, but now we just need more people to buy GM cars and trucks so they can afford to pay retired guys like us!
I have been told to start some fun business so I can write off all my toys as a business expense. LEt' see, I could fish pro walleye tournaments until the IRS caught me and said it was just a hobby OR I could farm and bale some hay and sell it for 7.00 dollars a bale. | |
| | |
| Thank you Red NEck Tech. I love being a UAW welfare person. It is just as Walter Reuther said it was, "The UAW members will have heaven on earth and no company paid benefit will be too big for our proud UAW membership"
...but can you spare that 100.00 per month. That 100.00 will fill my truck with diesel fuel so I can go back and forth from my place up on Lake Gogebic. I need to know as soon as possible becuase we are having a big party up there on New Years' Eve and I need gas money to go up there and tell the hot tub guy where to install my new 8 person hot tub.
| |
| | |
| AWWW come on ....those are faithful UAW members just making a living.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/10235271/index.html?taf=det
Since I was skilled trades at Delphi and management never cared what I was doing or where I was, I had a bartender job partime across the street from the plant I used to do for about 3 years while I was on the clock at DELPHI. I worked 2 jobs at the same time. THe owner of the bar paid me cash under the table. A nice little cash nest egg I used to buy a Kawasaki Mule for the place up north when I deer hunt.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 744
| The prosecution rests it's case, your honor. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 859
Location: Appleton wi | Ha Ha too funny and sad. Maybe some ones should send it to the senators and play it for the CEO's of ford and gm | |
| | |
| And send Mr CROTON in front of the committee to testify and repeat what he has stated on this forum. Someone does have access to the IP address right?
And what the heck, the government can easedrop at will...
| |
| | |
| If the story Croton spins is true, the total silence of most the union members on this site about the abuse is sickening. No wonder unions are a dieing breed. | |
| | |
Location: Rhinelander | And now the Senate is asking for a socialist leaning agenda to be accepted for our own collective good, and if not, then to hell with us all and let the cards fall where they may, so our lame duck Republican President might be the one to put it all on a strange financial level using bank bailout money (wait, is that crisis over?) until our new president inherits this mess, what a gift to Mr Obama. The odd thing is it's the Republicans in the Senate who made this move on the auto bailout deal.
To top it off, the Bears and Vikings are fighting for the division lead. The NFL announced layoffs..huh? This is getting to the point of being surreal.
| |
| |
|
When the chips are down, who's all USA???