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| The voting results were a NO vote!! My hat goes off to the employees for sticking together during this. If merc wants to go then let them!! I was there for the vote and i was a no also!!! |
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| "If merc wants to go then let them!!"
Then with that attitude, I sure hope we don't here any whining from the union when Merc. leaves and you are out of a job. |
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Location: Coatesville, PA | I'm sure the union members realized they could be voting their job away. Maybe it was their way of saying screw you, before the company tells them in 6 months their job is gone anyway. I wouldn't bet a dime on Mercury giving a rats butt about their employees, they are looking at the bottom line. They were probably trying to get the consessions from the union to bide them over till they could make a move. I'm not a union member, but my neighbor is in management and deals with his companies union. Believe me, they could care less about the workers, the harder they screw the worker, the more money in managements pocket! |
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| A business exists to provide a return on investment to their stockholders, not provide charity to a union.
I feel sorry for the non-union employees who did not choose to send away their jobs. |
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| ShellbackCVA59 - 8/23/2009 2:27 PM
I'm sure the union members realized they could be voting their job away. Maybe it was their way of saying screw you, before the company tells them in 6 months their job is gone anyway. I wouldn't bet a dime on Mercury giving a rats butt about their employees, they are looking at the bottom line. They were probably trying to get the consessions from the union to bide them over till they could make a move. I'm not a union member, but my neighbor is in management and deals with his companies union. Believe me, they could care less about the workers, the harder they screw the worker, the more money in managements pocket!
Come on..."screw you, before the company tells them in 6 months their job is gone anyway" if that was the case they would not have even cared to bring a negotiation up and would have just moved anyhow. Merc. could have easily just have keep production going, letting the union think everything was fine for their 4 year contract, and just start moving the jobs down south and eliminating them up here. They chose, instead, to allow the union a voice and gave them an option here. Management has cuts just as much as the mill work does, and when they get cut it is more abrupt than if working in the mill. The stockholders are the ones supplying the jobs with their investment and they have lost a ton of money, but it is always management screwing the worker never the worker pricing themselves out of what the market will bare.
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| In the almost 30 years I worked as a packaging rep, I have seen the change in how business is done. In the past are loyalty, trust and a willingness to base your brand on your people who make it. Yes there are a few exceptions, but they are not the norm. It's about profits, not people. To me, you need both. A few weeks ago around 30 people with 35 years or more at Harnischfeger were greeted at a meeting and walked out the door. No notice, no chance to vote. Just here's the door, a little something to get you by and thanks for the 35 years. Large manufacturers that my fathers packaging company built his business on are all but gone. Purchasing agents buy direct and will cut you for a nickel. It used to be based on trust and relationships between manufacturing, purchasing and their vendors. I believe most of that is history. Employees are pushed to the limit and often there is a general tension between those responsible for making the product and those responsible for managing the company.
I am unaware of the "package" offered or it's sincerity, as suggested by some. I have friends on both sides of the fence and some who I'm sure are stuck in the middle. I feel so sorry for the families of all who are affected, it's why I posted. I can't imagine the lacuna in the landscape between Hickory Street and Military Road as I pass by in the future. Seeing the plant and fountains have been a part of every drive between Milwaukee and up north for as long as I can remember. |
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| I hope those folks have information that has not been made public that gives them hope that their jobs will somehow survive this life changing game of chicken.
Best of luck to all concerned going forward.
Jim O |
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Location: Coatesville, PA | another guest - 8/23/2009 3:39 PM
A business exists to provide a return on investment to their stockholders, not provide charity to a union.
I feel sorry for the non-union employees who did not choose to send away their jobs.
Very true. But what about those super packages CEO's get even when the company is failing. Stockholders get beaten there too. The working man is constantly getting squeezed and his work moved off shore. I'm not looking at this as a Union Shop against an employer, I'm looking at this like an American Worker, against an employer who has already sent work overseas. This is just another step towards sending manufacturing overseas. At most they would probably just be postponing their eventual termination. |
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Location: Fond du Lac | are these the stockholders you are implying to, http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ir?s=BC click on some of the names and if you can figure it out you are smarter than alot of people.Yes we did know more than all the people who want to cut us down did,and when we feel you need to know we might share it.
Edited by flipper 8/23/2009 4:39 PM
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| "Yes we did know more than all the people who want to cut us down did,and when we feel you need to know we might share it."
Give me a break. Your union would be the first people to the microphone if the details that have been on the news were incorrect or if there was some really low-down dealings that Merc. was doing. If you want people to understand your point you better make it, your loosing support. |
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| the union built mercury. my hat goes off to all union members! mercury builds enough motors in china. the best motors are build in fondulac,not stillwater ok.,and not china. thank god for unions or everybody would be making 10 bucks a hour. |
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Location: Berlin | So sorry to hear you could not work this out. I am terrified of what the outcome will be of this as I am sure all Merc employyes are. I don't have enough facts to judge anyone. Wow, scary times are ahead. Good luck to all involved  |
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Location: Fond du Lac | I can't give you a break that has to be a management decision and they will let you know 20 minutes prior to that break if you have to work thru your break and if you should take your break before or after the scheduled break.By the way after you worked 12 hours straight pay for 3 days we don't need anymore production this week you can come back on Monday,don't think about collecting unemployment for the other 4 hours of a 40 hour week either,is that a candy wrapper on the floor,your fired.Wasn't looking for support,I just feel like arguing for awhile
Edited by flipper 8/23/2009 6:19 PM
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| Rich S is correct as is flipper. We the public do not know all the facts, and one thing learned long ago is that you don't negotiate contracts in the media.
If they close the place down, the first article in the papers will be how the demise of all those jobs can be attributed to the 'NO' vote by the union members. I guarrantee there is something in the new contract we don't have any knowledge of.
Someone earlier alluded to the possibility that the concessions might just be a way for Merc to pay for shipping those jobs out and shutting down the factory. I've seen this happen way too many times.
I have one question for Merc, why freeze wages for 7 years? Why not just for the term of the current contract?
Something's amiss here I think. |
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| herb you hit it right on the head. They will keep us around until Merc is fully ready to go to China and then to bad to sad for the employees!!! We as employees were at a no win situation. Like others said, the company has already made up their minds no matter what the out come of the vote was. |
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| So....let me get this straight. When a union forces the upper hand with a company they threaten to strike (and often do) thus making the company loose earnings and this is good...not for the company. But when the tables are turned and the company forces the upper hand to the union and threatens to leave (and often do) thus making the workers loose earnings this is bad? |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | flipper -
We routinely change our employee's work schedules on a lot less notice than 20 minutes. We routinely work 12+ hour days early in the week, then send employee's home for the week without 40 hours. Do they like that? NO. Do I like doing it? NO. HOWEVER, in the tough business environment we are in, we all do what we need to to survive. BTW, even with stellar performance evaluations, I haven't gotten a raise in 2 years and average a 2% annual raise for the 2 years previous to that.
I'm not bitter. I'm happy to have my job for a company that wants to have me. |
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Location: Fond du Lac | how far can a dog run into the woods? |
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| I've never been a Merc guy but I might have to consider one now. I like the fact that they finally stood up to the union and told them where to go. Of course I won't be buying any Merc until all production is out of FDL as I would not trust any of these union hacks to do anything but sabotage whatever they make now.
I do feel sorry though for all the non-union employees who got screwed by the union by not having a say in whether they had a job or not. |
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| "the best motors are build in fondulac,not stillwater ok."
There's a comment you would not hear if the workers in Stillwater were unionized. What a bias bunch of BS. And I suppose you have access to the service records of the motors that needed warranty work and it shows which plants they came from.
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| we know both governors fought for this business AND both were probably offering a competitive package, and the union may have been the deciding factor but what erks me is the 2000 people in the fondulac plant and the additional 2000 that support it will be competing for no jobs in the area...Never before could I stand by my mail box and look left and see 3 for sale signs and know 5 neighbors out of a job and turn my head and look to the right and see 2 for sale signs and know 6 more out of a job..... by the way I can see 12 houses, and thats my little subdivision in the fox valley area. This is gonna hurt and hurt bad. How many of those with all those years of service are sitting with pensions and nearing retirement...I once heard 50% were near retirement within 5 years. I don't feel one bit sorry for those that voted NO.......I only worry that my kids will be able to survive this open pocetbook Washington has!
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| Seriously, who votes themselves out of a job? Especially in today's economy. A collective group of morons I guess. One of the dumbest things I've seen in a long time. |
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| I too feel for the non union workers there. My wife is a salary worker and just got a 10% salary cut because they can't do anything with the union for another year. Some may call it an odd mentatlity, but she's still happy to have a job. Why can't union people have the same mentality? It honestly baffles me.
John |
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| Whem merc is gone out of fondulac all you ignorant union will wish you had a job! Again all the old timers used the untrue scare tactics to get the no vote. Its a bullish atttitde the union chief and his cronies use. Dont feel sorry for any of you . Bye Bye merc |
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| Someone just give me a believable answer to this one simple question, and I will be done:
How did this "NO" vote help any Merc employees or the FDL community?
Please keep your answer short...if it makes sense, it shouldn't have to be very long.
Edited by thumper 8/24/2009 7:57 AM
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Location: Coatesville, PA | I didn't read anywhere that Merc was giving these union workers a guarantee on how long their job would last? What's to stop Merc from getting union concessions, then moving south or to China next year? Merc is trying to renege on a contract they signed last year. Their word doesn't seem like it's worth much. Merc has been building their small motors in China, and has Tohatsu building some. Anybody seen the price of these units go down with the cheap labor? Where's the savings going? Wouldn't be to management would it? |
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| "I didn't read anywhere that Merc was giving these union workers a guarantee on how long their job would last? "
Not sure how many of you have guarantee's? I don't. There are only 2 guarantee's I know of, death and taxes. I am guessing with Merc gone from WI our taxes will now go up to support those who declined a job. |
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| The union must have felt that with the current administration in the White House they could vote away their jobs and rely on the taxpayer to take care of them when there are no manufacturing jobs left in Fond du Lac. If I were in that position, I wouldn't be able to walk down the street and look other people in my community in the eye knowing I directly contributed to loss of thousands of jobs and millions of dollars for the local economy. I guess others don't feel the same... |
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| I think we all need to accept that manufacturing in the
U.S. is history. Educate your kids to avoid manufacturing
related fields like the plague. |
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| thumper - 8/24/2009 7:54 AM
Someone just give me a believable answer to this one simple question, and I will be done:
How did this "NO" vote help any Merc employees or the FDL community?
Please keep your answer short...if it makes sense, it shouldn't have to be very long.
Anyone? Anyone at all? |
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| First, I have been a Mercury man for nearly 20 years, I have been a pro staffer for 17 years. I will also be directly affected by the move, my family and me.
There are no union employees left on the floor that have small children. Lowest seniority I know is 33 years. Every union employee is within 0-8 years of retirement.
If you were laid off I don't think you had a vote. I maybe wrong, but I don't think so. So they had no opportunity to save their jobs. It was decided for them.
The union decided the fate of so many that didn't have the opportunity to vote.
The union voted whether those jobs are staying or going. And not just the jobs at Mercury, but all their suppliers, vendors and outside suppliers. This was not about a few union jobs, but about a few deciding the fate of many. Just plain selfishness. There is no guarantees, but probably Mercury and the familiar plant that I have seen since I was a kid on Highway 41 will be gone.
I will never buy a Toyota, Honda, Yamaha as long as there is a Dodge, Ford, Polaris and Mercury. We have never built better products than we are building now.
Good Luck to everybody, we will need it.
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Guest,
My question may give us more understanding. If you are correct and the lowest seniority is 33 years, do these people get any kind of retirement package once the move is made? Any guaranteed retirement after 30 years? |
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| i own a business in FDL and mercury definitely helps put food in my kids mouths. sounds like a "MURDER - SUICIDE" to me...I hope i'm here in 2 years..great area to raise my little ones. |
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| Lowest seniority is 33 years???????HOLY CRAP BATMAN....No wonder it was a no vote. These guys are so close to living off government healthcare, Social Security and other public funds that they really didn't have anything to lose.....They sure as heck didn't take in to account the thousands of their relatives that this is going to affect!
Heck after the FLW/Evinrude fallout maybe they will have money to open the plant up!!!! Can you say run it or sell it...........
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| Published: August 23, 2009 02:36 pm print this story comment on this story
NEW: Mercury will expand Stillwater MerCruiser Stillwater NewsPress
Now that union workers have rejected a contract with concessions for Mercury Marine labors in Wisconsin, the company will move forward to expand its MerCruiser plant in Stillwater, the company announced today.
Union workers at Mercury Marine voted this morning to reject a contract proposal that company officials said was necessary to keep Mercury in Fond du Lac.
Members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers – the union that represents production workers at Mercury Marine in Fond du Lac – met at Fond du Lac High School at 9 a.m. today to cast ballots that were later tallied at the headquarters of the IAMAW Local chapter 1947.
The proposal, which was presented to the union Aug. 19, is valid until Aug. 29 at midnight. The union leadership chose to accelerate the vote to Aug. 23.
Mercury said it will continue to operate the Fond du Lac facility under the terms and conditions of the existing contract, which expires in 2012.
In light of economic conditions the company says will lead to a smaller market, Mercury had submitted a contract proposal to the union in an effort to reduce costs, improve operation efficiencies and ensure the company's competitiveness, company officials said.
Following the union’s vote, the company will consolidate much of its Fond du Lac manufacturing operations with its existing operations in an expanded Stillwater facility, Mercury Marine said Sunday.
Mercury said it expects to finalize details of state and local support programs over the next few days. Detailed plans and programs will be announced as they become available, and the company said it expects the full consolidation to take between 24 and 36 months.
"We appreciate the patient support of our employees and communities as we’ve gone through this process,” said Mark Schwabero, president of Mercury Marine, in a statement posted on the corporate Web site. www.mercurymarine.com “This has been a very difficult and stressful process for all involved. We will work closely with our team in Fond du Lac to develop and communicate a transition plan for this 24-36
month process.”
"Local Lodge 1947 of The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers has overwhelmingly voted to reject the "final contract modification proposal" of Mercury Marine," the IAM Local posted on its Web site www.iam1947.org after Sunday's vote.
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| " ballots that were later tallied at the headquarters of the IAMAW Local chapter 1947."
Interesting. Wide margin? OK. That explains that.
With that, I am done with this topic. Nothing more, really, needs to be said. They voted, the votes were counted, and now the next move is .......to Stillwater, OK.
Edited by Shep 8/24/2009 11:39 AM
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| No personal attacks are allowed on this site. Personal attacks, untrue and unsubstatiated comments are not tolerated and will be swiftly deleted. Everyone here has friends on both sides of the fence; remember that first and foremost.
Thanks,
Zach |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | ok so 800 or so vote to suck unemployment for 3 years or as long as they can milk it before taking there retirement and SS. fondy and the aria have up to 5000 jubs or housholds affected that are either employed directly or indirectly by Merc . Another solid U.S company developes a bad name in a location that once was full of pride of ownership and quality. 800 or so union employee's (though getting the shaft on the offer laid out) Vote to take care of themselves and or become marters for the cause. fondys home values just dropped about 20% im guessing over night. This is a sad day and once again like everthing else in this country the minority chose the path for all. Wouldnt want to be put in the position of the Union brothers but the majority around my aria Union or not Past employee's of Tecumseh engins , and other shops all say live to fight another day and take the offer to take care of the other familys affected. Hey fondy! wile your all out looking for jobs remember... the folks voting will be out fishing on lake winnibago everyday and ice fishing all winter and drawing unemployment until there retirement kicks in. The rest of you will be on you own. As for Merc the company. Well No more product loyalty for me! Once a loyal merc supporter now my motor choices when made will be done stricly on Re-sale, dependabuility, cost of ownership. I DO HAVE ONE INTERESTING EXAMPLE. of what i feal is going on here. I have a buddy... his shop was shut down. Union for many many many years (entire life) He has been on unemployment for going on 3 years now and qualifies for more than the average 3 hundread and something a week because his job was eliminated and the plant closed. Part of what was once a 3000 count workforce in just this one location. Guess what.. been fishing almost everyday and enjoying life. 40 acre ranch is paid for and wife still works , big 20 ft deep v top of the line with a big black 250 in the shed.. 20 acres of prime white tail land to the north. Before you get the wrong idia , This guy busted his hump for 40 years and earned his keep. he saved his pennies and after going threw some health issues said no big deal im done working. he draws some of the well deserved unemployment that he paid into all is life 50 times what he will ever draw out and has little stress over it at all! IM FINE WITH IT TOO! Though a Union Man and seeing a battle over the years with jobs moving south and all the contracts to the point of the plant closeing he thinks without knowing all the details that for the good of the comunity and younger generation the Merc union should have taken the deal and the Union members at the tail end should do there best to hold it togather until they can retire. Yet voting the way they did is understandable for a true union member at hear and there is plenty of justification to vote down the offer.. STill we both figured the majority of those remaining union shop members can afford to draw benifits from the state (have earned them) and enjoy the next few years until retirement kicks in. Anyone selfish would be dumb to take the offer yet anyone with the best interest of the comunity and who does have any pride in the work they have done and the Mercury engine brand knows if Fondy is left behind it will be devistating to the comunity and also to the brand. These kinds of fights can drag down a company and cost them more in lost sales and revinue product quality issues and so fourth. either way its not good for anyone other than if a guy is counting his days till retirement and cant get out of going to work and still qualify for all the unemployment and gravy long term unless the company shuts down or eliminats his or her job. sad sad monday morning and if your looking to cash out of your home in the next few years id put it on the market now. |
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| Sorry, Zach. But the guy was on TV martyring himself. I figured if he could be on TV with his name, he can darn well be pointed out for who and what he is.
There's no other way to describe what these people are. |
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| Sunshine - 8/24/2009 10:44 AM
Guest,
My question may give us more understanding. If you are correct and the lowest seniority is 33 years, do these people get any kind of retirement package once the move is made? Any guaranteed retirement after 30 years?
Can someone answer this question. Sounds like many know these types of answers, why is no one talking who voted no? |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | oh boy ..... What is Walleye Weekend gonna be like? Merc National... Tradition? Bad Blood ? Boat burnings? no event at all? oh never mind i even braught this up......... its kinda like talking about where we are going to go for thanksgiving a day after a family lost a grandmother... kinda feals like a death in a way... Still cant get over the bad fealing in my Guts. Im in Denial! i must be! but this kinda hurts ya know? |
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Location: Coatesville, PA | I realize this is going to hurt alot of people and it seems the union members vote casts them as the villian. But think about 3 things.
1. Will Mercury lower the price of their products when they move production south to the cheaper labor?
2. When Mercury moved production of their smaller motors to China, did they lower the price?
3. I think it was stated that the corp headquarters employ's 1000 people. So the 800 people on the shop floor are responsible for Mercury being unprofitable?
I'm a worker, but not union. I'd bet you could go thru Merc's corp offices and find the same kind of shameful spending and perks that were revealed in the financial world after the meltdown. |
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Location: Menasha, WI | Developing.... http://www.jsonline.com/business/54558552.html
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| This isn't about lowring the price of motors. This is about trying to keep the sell price competitive and still make a profit.
What is so hard to understand about that?
And this is not all about the union, either. This State bears a great share of the blame, for this, other lost companies, and those who will not consider building here. Harley, for example. A WI based company, that won't even consider building a new plant here. And the cost of labor is not the reason! It's the bad business environment and policy's of this State.
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| Viking - 8/24/2009 3:47 PM
<p>Developing....</p><p> </p><p>http://www.jsonline.com/business/54558552.html <br /></p>
Good read Viking, seems Mercury is still trying to work this out. I hope both Merc and the voting union members keep what is best for the community in mind during these very important times.
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| "thumper - 8/24/2009 7:54 AM
Someone just give me a believable answer to this one simple question, and I will be done:
How did this "NO" vote help any Merc employees or the FDL community?
Please keep your answer short...if it makes sense, it shouldn't have to be very long.
Anyone? Anyone at all?"
It didn't. It just accelerated the inevitable by 12 months or so. Those jobs were gone no matter what. Foregone conclusion with the Amercan comsumers choice to support Japan for a few saved dollars(so they think). It was just a matter of when. It's illegal to make Americans work for the wages they need those motors to be manufactured at to truly compete. Plain and simple. |
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| Typical union rhetoric. The Japenese don't work for peanuts and there motors aren't any chaeper, just better. They take pride in there work not like many union employees that only worry about what the company can do for them. |
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| guest - 8/24/2009 10:41 PM
Typical union rhetoric. The Japenese don't work for peanuts and there motors aren't any chaeper, just better. They take pride in there work not like many union employees that only worry about what the company can do for them.
Really? The average wage for a worker in Japan is $1.20 pr hour. Sounds like peanuts to me! |
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| "It's illegal to make Americans work for the wages they need those motors to be manufactured at to truly compete. Plain and simple"
So then it is illegal what Mercury is doing for wages in Oklahoma? Give me a break. I don't hear them complaining about there job, in fact they are begging for more jobs. I guarantee if Mercury would post the 800 jobs with the proposed plan there would be a waiting list for people to get in.
This is the same problem the auto manufactures faced, only big government is there to bail out Mercury's union workers. |
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| Get your facts straight. Japanese workers are well paid. If you don't know what you are talking about don't post. |
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| "Really? The average wage for a worker in Japan is $1.20 pr hour. Sounds like peanuts to me!"
Where did you get those "facts"? Japenese workers are paid very well. |
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Location: Berlin | Why can't people keep the Japanese apart from the Chinese??? HUGE difference, CHINA AND JAPAN ARE NOT THE SAME PLACE.
Edited by Rich S 8/25/2009 8:04 AM
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | thumper - 8/24/2009 9:44 AM thumper - 8/24/2009 7:54 AM Someone just give me a believable answer to this one simple question, and I will be done: How did this "NO" vote help any Merc employees or the FDL community? Please keep your answer short...if it makes sense, it shouldn't have to be very long. Anyone? Anyone at all? |
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| Not average of 33 years, minimum of 33 years, most have 35+ years. They have very little to risk if not nothing to loss. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Guest - 8/25/2009 9:51 AM Not average of 33 years, minimum of 33 years, most have 35+ years. They have very little to risk if not nothing to loss. so there is your answer... Nothing to lose and the abuility to spend the next few years fishing and hunting drawing better than average unemployment sounds good. taking care of themselves and screw the neighbor. so i dont wanna hear anymore of the Union crying in this case. though union employees are getting bent over around the country this is a case where the Union guys are getting what they want. a way out of there own contract early with the state and feds picking up the difference. time to fire up the grill and crack some cold ones these guys are giggling all the way to retirement and Fondy and merc can pound sand as far as they are conserned. Nothing to do with the offer Merc put togather at all. work is slow and will be for years. guys pay checks are small and the gap after taxes to unemployment may amount to nothing... they all just wanna stay home and relax! so clear now! |
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| In this economy, Merc could clean house and have a waiting line in the parking lot of qualified people who would love to have the job at the rates they are offering. I wonder if the city will kick the union right out of town for their actions? |
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| guest - 8/25/2009 10:36 AM
In this economy, Merc could clean house and have a waiting line in the parking lot of qualified people who would love to have the job at the rates they are offering. I wonder if the city will kick the union right out of town for their actions?
Just the opposite. Excerpts from the FDL Reporter article regarding the county's offering to Merc:
"The package ... was the biggest offer any county has made to a Wisconsin business."
"The package included assistance for new engine development; the relocation of the Stillwater, Okla., manufacturing positions to Fond du Lac; and an incentive payment to International Association of Machinists (IAM) workers.
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| Japan is a LOT different than China but still a lot farther behind than the average American. And way behind the average manufacturing job in the US
In 2005 The average hourly wage was 4.24/hr. While every market is different in 2005 the average disposable income was $25,184.00 or 12.59/hr (based on a 2000 hour work week) although the average work day is 8.4hrs.
Doctors make $28/hr average. Professor $22/hr, Teachers $15/hr, Engineer $13/hr, Manufacturing $14/hr, all average reporting is $13.00/hr. They pay 5-10% national tax, 8% local tax, and another 10% to cover unemployment and health care.
In China the average it/financial job is 3.50/hr, 1.60/hr for manufacturing, $1.00/hr construction again based on a 40/hr work week. It's important to note that this is double that of 5 years ago and 4 times that of 10 years ago.
Good Luck
Tyee
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| you don't have a clue! ya there would be alot of un-skilled people waiting in line for a job,but that's all we need is inskilled workers building our motors. wake-up! |
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| steve b - 8/25/2009 11:15 AM
you don't have a clue! ya there would be alot of un-skilled people waiting in line for a job,but that's all we need is inskilled workers building our motors. wake-up!
Gosh, I am truely amazed that the union worker believes he actually has something to do with the design, and quality of design, of a product. When parts are made from a machine, the assembly is all that can go wrong. This is not rocket science. The guys in stillwater will not have assembled outboards before, but they will learn very quickly.
I say close her down for 90 days and boot them out. |
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| steve b, Ya it takes a lot of skill to screw in a spark plug or put a skicker on a motor cover!
Isn't it funny how union people always think that they can make things better than anybody else just because they belong to a union? |
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| Would you rather have a 19 year old kid who's never used a screw driver install the electric in your house or a 22 year old who went through 5-6 years of schooling and on-the-job training to be a Journyman do the installation? |
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| I'm Not Union But - 8/25/2009 2:42 PM
Would you rather have a 19 year old kid who's never used a screw driver install the electric in your house or a 22 year old who went through 5-6 years of schooling and on-the-job training to be a Journyman do the installation?
This is what you have wrong caller. There are many many many workers in our area who have plugged that lamp in many more times than that 22 year old did. the union guys that are there did not go to school, they sparked the house a few times to learn, like everyone else. I have seen the cross threaded spark plugs on brand neww enegines, pretty sure the 19 year old could have done that as well as the schooled 22 year old. dont make these guys out to be gods. they are nothing but dream killers. how many of them have there relation working there that have been laid off and they could have retired and made way for them to work instead, they are gready and keep there jobs for 35 years. dont even start, thats what is wrong there as well as many other places, GREED! |
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| steve b - 8/25/2009 11:15 AM
you don't have a clue! ya there would be alot of un-skilled people waiting in line for a job,but that's all we need is inskilled workers building our motors. wake-up!
Un-skilled? Inskilled workers? whisch is it? Would they be inedumacated, also? Yep, that pretty much solidifies your arguement!
You seem to know all that is so wonderful abouyt the union. Tell us, please. Why wouldn't the union let those who are laid off vote?
And do you actually believe that union talking head gives two shats about what a new hire would make?
Edited by Shep 8/26/2009 8:02 AM
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| It appears as though things are at a standstill. The union will not vote again on an identical contract, and Mercury will not change anything in their offer. State and local governments have or will make last-ditch offers to at least keep the corporate headquarters in FDL.
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| Did anyone else hear the "We can swim to shore from here" statement by the guy I can't name on here? That pretty much shows that those that voted to reject this don't give a hoot about the laid off union brethern, or the new hires. |
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| i worked for a union papermill in green bay for years,was a union rep also,and guess what i retired at 50 yrs old. i have no more comment! |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Local radio station (WTMJ 6200) reports that the union is looking into possibly having another vote after some members question whether they made the right decision. At this point the union doesn't know if they can.
hey I just report this stuff |
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Location: Berlin | steve b - 8/26/2009 3:26 PM
i worked for a union papermill in green bay for years,was a union rep also,and guess what i retired at 50 yrs old. i have no more comment!
That is GREAT but my dad can beat up your dad. |
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| steve b - 8/26/2009 3:26 PM
i worked for a union papermill in green bay for years,was a union rep also,and guess what i retired at 50 yrs old. i have no more comment!
That is really awesome, good for you.
Sincerely,
Out of work NewPage union workers |
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Location: Badgerland | steve b - 8/26/2009 3:26 PM
i worked for a union papermill in green bay for years,was a union rep also,and guess what i retired at 50 yrs old. i have no more comment!
Don't forget you may have left out you were offered early retirement in lew of layoffs, like at GP in Green Bay. |
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| Well, now. It seems as though a couple things have come into play.
http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090827/FON0...
Perhaps the biggest issue is one of trust, here. Looks like the rank and file is looking as though they might have been mislead just a teeny bit.
Mercury is looking like they really don't want to move to OK, and I hope a new vote is coming. Might be too short of notice, though, so I hope Merc gives them more time to organize another vote. I also hope those laid off get to be heard, too.
Edited by Shep 8/27/2009 9:32 AM
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | We are all in denial, This thing is OVER! The deal has been struck with Ok. the machine shop is as good as gone! the union can vote again all they want the move has been anounced at 24-36 months and the deal with the state of Ok is being locked in as we speak... now all that is left to save is the corperate office folks and with the Tax climate in the state of wisoconsin i have no clue why any company would keep there corperate office around. the city state and county just lost a pile of there tax base. Utilities and other taxable items like registration and renual on vehicals , property taxes ,payroll and the 1.00 per phone line tax in the last budget. oh well... smokes are going up 75 cents a pack next week so no stress! oh woo hooo 49 cent cones at mickyD's Merc Union employee's get out there and get us some fishing reports so we can go out on our day off work and not burn up so much gas looking for fish! |
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| thumper - 8/24/2009 7:54 AM
How did this "NO" vote help any Merc employees or the FDL community?
It's easy to see when I consider ALL of us in the *working class* here who, in order to survive, are forced to trade our physical or intellectual work for money, have experienced real loss of wages over the past 40 years or so, while a relatively tiny percentage of the population, the ruling elite, has enjoyed a massive and disproportionate increase in its wealth. (there is very much credible and supporting evidence for this assertion.)
When we recognize ALL of us workers share that in common, then it becomes apparent how the Merc employees' "NO" vote helped ALL workers resist the ruling class' assault on our right to a *fair* wage.
It's hard, I know, to look at this from outside our own reference point. I think it's necessary to see where the real problem lies.
Instead of fighting each other here, I suggest we start examining the reasons why Mercury engines (insert any number of products here: cars, houses, nutritious food, advanced education, healthcare, etc) have become un-affordable to so many of us over the past few decades.
-EF Swagee
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| Here is a link to a report that provides evidence to support opinions expressed in my last post: http://www.workingpoorfamilies.org/pdfs/NatReport08.pdf
quoting the report:
""The Working Poor Keep Getting Poorer"
"The Working Poor Families Project October 2008 study highlighted similar problems from 2002 through 2006. Titled “Still Working Hard, Still Falling Short: New Findings on the Challenges Confronting America’s Working Families,” it reported:
– jobs paying poverty-level wages rose by 4.7 million;
– low-income working families (earning less than double the Census definition of poverty) increased by 350,000;
– below poverty-level jobs rose to 29.4 million and comprise 22% of all jobs compared to 19% in 2002;
– most disturbing is that this happened during a period of economic growth, but at the same time wages haven’t kept pace with the cost of living;
– low income family numbers rose to nearly 9.6 million or 28% of the population;
– children in them number 21 million;
– 72% of low-income families with working adults in them performed the equivalent of one and one-quarter jobs – a far greater burden than in other OECD countries; and
– income inequality is highest in New York; California is fourth, but all states are in a race to the bottom as conditions deteriorate everywhere, so all rankings are disturbing compared to the late 1990s.""
The report should help us to get "on the same page" regarding downward pressure on wages in America and the consequences, which include increasing poverty, homelessness, hunger, etc. and help direct us to the real causes of present and past economic crises.
It is my hope to shine a bright light on the importance of unity among all of us in the global working class.
When any group in the global working class, whether Merc Union employees, Chinese assembly line workers, un-documented farm workers, etc, is subjected to wage cuts, loss of benefits, layoffs, forced early retirements, ALL of us suffer.
-EF Swagee |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Examin? We should look into why? Its called SOCIALISM! its called the courts and the elected officials selling out to Trial law ! Its called bill after bill after bill of failed waistfull spending and backscratching. Its called an attack on anything productive in this country and making it possible to make a living or get by without doing anything productive at all. All i see is a Nation becomming dependant on the political power in office for there future and the producers and hard workers in this country paying the bill! I see major companies or the few that have money to invest in productive idias better off getting a family member elected for the senate to protect there interests and get a foothold on the next gravy train or face being assulted like the rest of the producers and taxed out of buisness or any profitabuility. I see other countrys taking over the world market. I see a massive migration moving to this country and stresses put on our country to absorb and pay there way. I see the family's shrinking because of affordabuility issues and no productive population to support all of the new idias and spending approved. I see a rediculus energy pollicy using climate change to force a new direction. I see energy costs to do buisness or just go threw everyday life exploding and taking away available spending income from the average house hold.. I see a Mortgage industry that backed by government protection and insider dealings got ahold of the 401 k money that the average worker in the contry saved over the years and used it to fund a fals housing market and the little guy took the fall! i see a cover up and a bail out to again not help the little guy but the insider players. DO YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 15-20 YEARS? Its called taxation without representation and the distruction of our Constitution. An entire industry made of law suits against doctors, employers, and the people, by the too many law majors and law lobbie. I see a failed 50 year old public education system, a failed medicare systerm a failed postal system, a failed any system created by our goverment for the greator good. NOT one thing created by our government has turned out to be a competitive viable program that can even come close to anything other than a major parosite on our nation. in a few years Gas will be 5 bucks a gallon and your electric bill will tripple. inflation will have gone up 15% based on the spending of the last 10 years. 90% of our political representitives do not care and our country is distracted with who has MY back and what Micheal Jackson eat for luch the day he passed on.... the sell off of our country's land , ports and coastline to investors abroad. the assault on our healthcare system to destroy it so the country has no choice but to let the government get controle of another 10% of our econamy and another 7% of our voting public dependant on there jobs. WE HAVE BECOME WEAK SOFT people and our great grandfathers and grandfathers who faught for this country did it for nothing it seems ... Nothing but a good 40 year run! hey we had a good run right? but its over! To turn this ship around will take more than i think the people of this country have in them... Pray for our children and grandchildren. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | my respons above was to the queston why is this happening. why the Flw and the boat makers the tournament world slow down. Responce to a post on the prev page. In the 60's on your block one household had a toy in the driveway. in the 70 half the driveways had a toy parked on it.. in the 80's everyone it seemd had a toy or hobbie and a a shed built on the side to park the stuff in it ! in the 90's we played and worked and took it all for granted. now in the 2000's we go the other direction folks dont even have a driveway anymore and in the next ten years it will be back to working only for a roof over your head and to buy food. the 2% of the country will still have all the toys and live on the lakes and golf courses, the 25% of the country now working for the government in some way or making there living on nice contracts will still have there free time and toys for a wile until further fat will need to be trimmed by the screaming public.. Walleye tournaments? ohhhhh Flw? ya i spose it will fly for a wile yet as long as there is enough folks with a checkbook to compete. |
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| EF, you have yet to show the good that came from this "no" vote. The jobs will be moved, and will be done elsewhere for less money at a devastating cost to the FDL community.
Show us the good in that so we can understand and be done with this nonsense.
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| Another "Spokesman" from the union just said there will be no do-over vote.
I think this is going to get intense in the next day or two. |
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| Brad,
I agree with every word you typed. I thought I was the only one that was losing my mind. I hope you are wrong, are only hope is that the true Americans will not let the country break. |
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| no i wasn't offered early retirement!and i did not work for GP.i worked for procter&Gamble!!!! Good luck to all union workers at mercury! Hopefully the company will relize there mistake before it's to late. |
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| thumper - 8/27/2009 1:36 PM
EF, you have yet to show the good that came from this "no" vote. The jobs will be moved, and will be done elsewhere for less money at a devastating cost to the FDL community.
Show us the good in that so we can understand and be done with this nonsense.
EF Swagee says--------> The 'good' may not be immediately visible to most of us. In my view, the Merc Union members are courageously standing up for the employment rights of every worker everywhere.
Their actions will inspire other workers of the world to fight for a more equitable share of the fruits of their labor.
They have my full support.
I am always astonished when I witness fellow working class members vigorously defend a corporation's right to maximize profit and damn workers who collectively assert their right to maximize wages.
It's critical, for this discussion, to add to the equation the reasons why Mercury is selling so many less motors, rather, the reasons why fewer and fewer working class members cannot afford to buy Mercury motors.
In solidarity forever,
EF Swagee |
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| Guest - 8/27/2009 7:28 PM
thumper - 8/27/2009 1:36 PM
EF, you have yet to show the good that came from this "no" vote. The jobs will be moved, and will be done elsewhere for less money at a devastating cost to the FDL community.
Show us the good in that so we can understand and be done with this nonsense.
EF Swagee says--------> The 'good' may not be immediately visible to most of us. In my view, the Merc Union members are courageously standing up for the employment rights of every worker everywhere.
Their actions will inspire other workers of the world to fight for a more equitable share of the fruits of their labor.
They have my full support.
I am always astonished when I witness fellow working class members vigorously defend a corporation's right to maximize profit and damn workers who collectively assert their right to maximize wages.
It's critical, for this discussion, to add to the equation the reasons why Mercury is selling so many less motors, rather, the reasons why fewer and fewer working class members cannot afford to buy Mercury motors.
CORRECTION - I meant to write 'why fewer and fewer working class members *can* afford to buy Mercury motors. "
In solidarity forever,
EF Swagee |
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| EF- Your argument has so many flaws, I do not know where to begin...and frankly, I'm too tired to start.
I wish the best of luck to all that are affected. |
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| Thumper its a conspiracy according to EF. why cant you see it like he does!LMAO |
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| EF provides the clasic example of why the unions are going the way of the dinosaur, they have failed to evolve from the 60's mentality. They pound their chests, threaten to strike, carry funny signs with cute slogans as they protest, intimidate, call people scabs and all the while the members blindly send in the dues and are told who to support. Then above all they send in floor workers to bargain against high paid labor lawyers. By the way those dues you pay every month, well 75% end up going to the national level union hierarchy who do nothing but party with and lobby politicians. Unions need to evolve, your day of big gains is over and you did many great things but you are still trying to use old methods in a much more evolved business world!!!! Solidarity is great but man people think for yourselves once and awhile, put your dues into retaining a high priced labor lawyer/firm instead of some outdated rank and file union system. Can you imagine the type of lawyers you could have to utilize with all your dues money if you kept it locally?
Anyway, I'm with Shep and Sunshine on this one! |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | i agree, bringing a club to a gun fight is not going to work anymore. agian as long as there are folks in our own country willing to do the work for less and the Southern states are headhunting and have formed commisions to go out and find companies to agressivly target as a potential investment with taxpayer dollars there is no fighting chance for the union members. so many dont even realize this is going on! the corperations are owned by stockholders from other states and all over the country. though the stockholders may care about production in the united states if you think a stockholder from florida sitting on the board of directors gives a rats a$$ weather Merc is in wisconsin or Oklahoma or where ever your smoken something. When another states representitives show up at the doorstep of your machine shop and pitch the fact that there are thousands of people who will work for half the money and you can take your pick of the 800 job openings from thousands and then add to the fact that the Move will be paid for and the plant will be built and the corperate office will be built at no expence to the manufacturer along with the fact that taxes are lower ,cost of utilitys is lower and there are less restrictions on companies in there state for years to come all taxes and utilities will be waved anyway . IM Sory YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO COMPETE . The fact that Merc even tried to stay here still boggles my mind. like i said its a sad day, and its all over , they say the move will take 24 to 36 months , based on history im guessing your machine shop will be moved in 3 to four months and 6 months tops. the corperate office will be next. YES if you follow the money! YOUR OWN TAX dollars are going to needy states! In return those states are taking money out of there budgets to form headhunter commisions to target attractive companys and offer packages to re-locate. Your UNION dues and tax dollars are funding the folks in washington who can bring home the money and dole it out to states in need. Your paying for Mercs move and so am I! and thousands of other companies too!
Edited by bradley894 8/28/2009 11:54 AM
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| Okay. I'll try again. Please go back and read the report to which I linked in a previous post. And, please take an objective look at wealth distribution statistics included in this scholarly report: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
If we're gonna have a reasonable debate here, we need to establish some key facts about the increasingly inequitable distribution of wealth in the US.
(If there's no desire to have a reasonable debate, no problemo. I be gone.)
Here are two key points:
1) "The Wealth Distribution"
"In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2004, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.3% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.3%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.2%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2007)."
2)"Historical context"
"Numerous studies show that the wealth distribution has been extremely concentrated throughout American history, with the top 1% already owning 40-50% in large port cities like Boston, New York, and Charleston in the 19th century (Keister, 2005). It was very stable over the course of the 20th century, although there were small declines in the aftermath of the New Deal and World II, when most people were working and could save a little money. There were progressive income tax rates, too, which took some money from the rich to help with government services. Then there was a further decline, or flattening, in the 1970s, but this time in good part due to a fall in stock prices, meaning that the rich lost some of the value in their stocks. By the late 1980s, however, the wealth distribution was almost as concentrated as it had been in 1929, when the top 1% had 44.2% of all wealth. It has continued to edge up since that time, with a slight decline from 1998 to 2004, before the economy crashed in the late 2000s and little people got pushed down again. Table 3 and Figure 4 present the details from 1922 through 2004. Here are some dramatic facts that sum up how the wealth distribution became even more concentrated between 1983 and 2004, in good part due to the tax cuts for the wealthy and the defeat of labor unions: Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy in that 21-year-period, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007)."
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| bradley894 - 8/28/2009 11:45 AM
<p>i agree, bringing a club to a gun fight is not going to work anymore. agian as long as there are folks in our own country willing to do the work for less and the Southern states are headhunting and have formed commisions to go out and find companies to agressivly target as a potential investment with taxpayer dollars there is no fighting chance for the union members. so many dont even realize this is going on! the corperations are owned by stockholders from other states and all over the country. though the stockholders may care about production in the united states if you think a stockholder from florida sitting on the board of directors gives a rats a$$ weather Merc is in wisconsin or Oklahoma or where ever your smoken something. When another states representitives show up at the doorstep of your machine shop and pitch the fact that there are thousands of people who will work for half the money and you can take your pick of the 800 job openings from thousands and then add to the fact that the Move will be paid for and the plant will be built and the corperate office will be built at no expence to the manufacturer along with the fact that taxes are lower ,cost of utilitys is lower and there are less restrictions on companies in there state for years to come all taxes and utilities will be waved anyway . IM Sory YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO COMPETE . The fact that Merc even tried to stay here still boggles my mind. like i said its a sad day, and its all over , they say the move will take 24 to 36 months , based on history im guessing your machine shop will be moved in 3 to four months and 6 months tops. the corperate office will be next. </p><p>YES if you follow the money! YOUR OWN TAX dollars are going to needy states! In return those states are taking money out of there budgets to form headhunter commisions to target attractive companys and offer packages to re-locate. Your UNION dues and tax dollars are funding the folks in washington who can bring home the money and dole it out to states in need. Your paying for Mercs move and so am I! and thousands of other companies too! </p>
You've made a great case for unions. I mean, imagine if there was unity among *all* of us who have to actually work and trade our intellectual and/or physical labor for money so we can survive in this world. What if Merc knew that wherever it chose to set up shop, whether in FDL, Mexico, Canada, China, labor costs would be the same?
We've got very serious problems when a greatly increasing number of workers can no longer afford to buy the stuff they're producing.
-EF Swagee |
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Location: Berlin | EF,
Just trying to understand your viewpoint. Lets say there is two companies making two completely different products. Both companies have assembly workers and identical skill levels are needed for both. One company is gouging the public and paying corporate billions in bonuses while the other company is making a small profit. Which one of these assembly workers should in your eyes get paid more? |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | EF we can sit here and dream if there was unity but there isnt any! there are forces at work who's main goal is to devide! forces at work in all forms including within ourselves. your historical stats tell a big story and i wish folks would take more time to look at history and what happend in the past to help with future decisions but even this is not the case and often avoided to push forward an adjenda of favor. In the past a few Machine shop workers in this situation would get togather and develope a plan to go out on there own and start producing there own line of competive outboards. you would have a few sharp marbles from the shop and the engeneering dept and grab somone from sales staff and a few money men and start up a new operation. Today with mandates on emisions and the competitive nature with cash flow issues and so fourth and the fact that the court system would be used and somone could not afford to fend off law suits and afford to fend off the massive assault that would be directed by the large outboard manufacurers and there connections. Starting a new shop in fondy would be suicide for anyone who would try. The massive amounts of cash needed to produce a product that would conform to this countrys emitions standards alone would be almost impossible for a limmited production operation. SAD BECAUSE if there were such a little shop formed putting out well built moters (hell even carberated 10-100 hp outboards on a starter scale people would buy them up like crazy. the problem is that to conform to new regulation your little outoard machine shop would have to have so much invested that they wouldnt be able to save the public any money.. the law will not permit the old simple outboard technology to be used today. EF, if you look at your figures threw the 1900's you will find that one thing isnt acounted for.... though the percentage of wealth hasnt shifted the amount of money taken from each houshold wealthy or otherwise has increased as of late at an astronomical rate. though the wealthy can adjust the everyday joe cant hide. forget direct payroll taxes if you want to ...Take a look at property , sales tax , taxes and fee's emposed on everything under the sun! fuel taxes and rising costs . the little guy has been assulted for the last 20 year like crazy! go back 20 years and look at what kind of drop the average houshold has taken in avaible spending or money able to be saved. there are few who have any savings at all and after the paycheck is cashed have nothing close to what they had left over 25 years ago.. my utility bill went up 15 dollars a month because they added another fee over and above usage! im one houshold and that 180 a year out of my spending or savable income in one little shot. gas tax goes up? 5 cents a gallon your household uses 100 gallons a week... guess what YOU JUST LOST 260.00 in available anual income. Remember thats an after tax hit so you in this day and age need to make 500.00 to cover the 5 cent gas tax increase for the year! Guess you just worked another week of the 52 in a year for NOTHING! Do people have any clue how much these increases are costing them? 1 dollar a month per phone line in wisconsin's last budget passed. (i think it was a buck) anyway home phone a buck and a family of 4 has 4 more lines so another 5 bucks a month and 60.00 a year. property tax increase? cable bill ads a federal or state fee?. city tax on another fee for garbage pickup. the city of milwaukee adds a wheel tax and your registration goes up by 20 dollars a vehical in your houshold per year! a pack of smokes goes up 75Cents? Smokers do you realize if you and your wife smoke a pack a day in wisconsin next week you will be spending another 547 a year than you were this week? Another week of work spent after taxes with that increase alone! let the government take another 20% of your check for national health care? this is out of controle and its much bigger than a union non union issue. AND YES YOUR POINT IS TAKEN! PEOPLE CANT afford the outboard anymore and with each little tax increase or fee emposed wont be able to affort to fix or put gas in the one they have Now! Forget wages going up! we cant keep up with cost of living. and we havent even felt the 10-15% inflation hit we are going to be looking at based on history when our federal spending goes up so quick... REMEMBER half your take home is already grabbed in taxes fees and the such.. so 10-15% inflation is doubled do to the fact that your availabe income is less than 50% of what you make!
Edited by bradley894 8/28/2009 2:14 PM
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Most anybody who knows me can tell you that I am not a union supporter. My reasons are the same as many opinions posted here. Unions nowadays are socialism pure and simple. If you want to live a life where you don’t have choices, and where you can not get ahead based on merit, but must instead wait for seniority then good for you, you’ve reached your goal.
Labor laws have changed, and I will admit largely due to the unions of the past. I do feel however, that their time has passed. Current labor laws protect the American workers so much more than in the past that the whole reason for unions is now nullified. The Mercury situation is a prime example of the outdated mentality of the current unions. This company gave the workers a chance to keep some of what they had instead of instantly dropping everything and leaving for greener pastures.
The union leaders decided it was not enough, so they convinced members to turn it down. Now everybody will be left with nothing. I’m sure there are plenty of families that were not willing to make this “moral stand” at the cost of feeding their children.
This may have worked in the pre-automation days when there were not thousands of computers that can more efficiently measure, cut, assemble and produce goods than humans ever could. There are of course exceptions to this, but the majority of the repetitive factory work can be replicated by computers and machines, and takes much less experience and skill to operate than in years past.
The groups that actually have some bargaining power today are the Engineers and scientists who actually develop new items and come up with ideas. Those are the people that are not as easily replaced. Strong arming a company for general labor flat out will not work in todays market. This applies for all forms of business, not just Merc.
One thing I will say for companies who no longer deal with Unions, is that they get to choose who is qualified for the work they need done. Seniority does not dictate that John Doe gets to have the top job because he’s been here for 40 years.
As a person who reviews resumes and hires business analysts, I can tell you how much of a nightmare it would be if I had to take a 60 year old person with no experience off a punch press and teach them 5 programming languages, business process management etc… They may be the brightest person in the world, but their qualifications simply do not match the job.
Enough of my rant, the union screwed up and hurt thousands of people in the Fox Valley. Sugar coat it all you want, nothing good will come from this. |
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Location: Berlin | On second thought, don't bother. I don't want to have a conversation with someone that uses that as their screen name. |
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| EF,
Wealth distribution? What on GODS grean earth does that have to do with Unions? Go to school get an education and earn your own wealth for goodness sakes. Just because the number of people with wealth changed over the time span of politicians and a reference can be made about unions survivability at certain times, I see no viability at all to who has all the money.........The man with the most toys WINS. Human beings are cometitive by nature, unfortunately so many people are being forced by our gov't these days to rely on Gov't telling them what they can and can't do! Capitalism not socialism!!!!!now if thats what you want to debate lets have at it!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | I was almost temted to join in the conversion, but I sat down for a minute, counted to ten, and the feeling went away... Whew!!! That was a close one.
Edited by Brad B 8/28/2009 2:55 PM
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | im just frustrated with all the fighting back and fourth when the real issue behind this is people cant afford to buy or used the products produced in this country because there available spending income had dropped. because of the drop this if followed by less demand for product and less hours being worked by those producing or as EF state the same folks who would buy the product cant afford them because of cutbacks. The manufactures being down 40% in sales the last couple of years reflects the same issue.. and if you look back the issue started with our energy policy and gas going up 3 years ago... remember the average houshold with two vehicals going to work daily and maybe a 3rd recreational or child driving can use 100 gallons a week. at even only 1.50 increas per gallon from 7 years ago your looking at a 600.00 increase out of a monthly houshold budget! or 7 grand a year!!!!!! or a house payment or two car payments or half there tax bill or whatever.. Ad to the fact that our nation runs on the stuff and all the shipping costs to do any kind of buisness or even feed the country must increase to absorb the fuel increase we saw massive reductions in available houshold spending income. This is not a short term problem and if anyone thinks wages and our economy will recover from this in a few years better come back to earth! because of less production , less spending and less hours and work being done in this slow time our federal and state and local budgets are in shambles do to lower tax revenue! so what do they do? add more taxes and fees ! taking away more spending income and less buying will be done and so on down the line. There is one thing that can stop this spiral! We need to build Oil refinaries , we need to drill a lot! we need to build about 20 nuke plants for electricity! WE NEED TO BRING DOWN The cost of living and the cost to do buisness in our country Fast or the trend will continue! I do not see any other way out! Remember for some in this country they will fight this to the end and some do not want to see this country thrive in that type of way! some feal there needs to be no production and there are already too many who have free time and boats and rv's and cars and freedom. there are those that do not want the general public at there resorts or able to access there lakes or wetlands. there are also those who prosper with political adjenda's hiding behind climate change to push there favord energy projects , public transportation expansion and massive emitions controle limmitations that slow down companies like Merc GM and the such! there are also those looking to take advantage of the heath care situation to gain controle of that part of our free market. Follow the money folks! thats all. union members and the others all being hit by this up hill battle! direct your attention to the cause and you will have a chance to change the result for companies in the futuere face with the same situation! |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Tyee, Brad B , Sunshine, RichS, GNWC, EF, Pro union Guest, Anti Union guest! all you guys who all love walleye fishing and love to bicker and take shots at each other and get threw the day checking in on here.... We are all in the same boat!
We all count on this country to thrive or we all feal the burn! We all need folks to spend money and pay taxes and buy toys , goods and services to keep us working and the heat bill paid at home. to all overpaid governement employees and underpaid ones too! (teachers lol) anyway there wouldnt be the bitterness with each other if things were going well! everyone is crying about each other and face it! you need to be crying to your local state and federal representitives! NOT FOR A FREAKIN HAND OUT EATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOR SOME ACTION THAT WILL PUT THIS COUNTRY BACK ON TRACK! NOT to extend cash for clunkers! not to demand health insurance for your life partner! not to demand that the union members get a bigger unemployment check or government contract ... We need to right this ship! wake up! |
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| From the FDL Reporter:
A rally planned for 5:30 p.m. Friday aims to draw supporters lobbying to keep Mercury Marine in Fond du Lac.
Three Mercury union employees, who have gathered signatures on a petition calling for a second contract vote, are asking for backers to gather at Oven Island at Lakeside Park.
“We are pushing for a peaceful rally to support the union and keep Mercury here,” said Fred Toth Jr., a Mercury union worker.
Toth and fellow Mercury foundry workers Rick Schmidt and Phillip Rodriguez want to know who is saying a second vote cannot be held on the contract.
“We request that someone, somehow, show us why we cannot have a revote according to the bylaws,” Toth said.
Union officials with International Association at Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local 1947 have said, according to the union’s bylaws, a second vote cannot be held unless the company agrees to “significant” contract changes.
On Aug. 23, union members at Mercury Marine rejected contract changes company officials said were needed to keep Mercury in Fond du Lac.
Toth said he estimates that, since then, at least 40 percent of the workers have had a change of heart.
“They have had the time to actually understand and react to what their vote means,” Toth said.
Word of the rally is spreading through the town, Toth said. He spent the day contacting media statewide.
“People can carry signs and just bring a smile to support us,” he said.
Company officials were also contacting Toth to lend support to his cause, he said.
Rodriguez said both anger and fear drove him to action.
“Other people were deciding my future, and the future of everyone else in the community,” he said.
Those in opposition to the “no” vote needed a voice, he said.
“They needed someone to say, ‘We don’t feel the same,’” Rodriguez commented.
Toth said if a second vote is held and the majority of union workers still vote no, at least they were given a second chance.
“We’ve been called some pretty good names through this whole thing, but the union played on my emotions. It’s enough. Now, it’s time for me to let people know,” he said.
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | oh boy! |
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Location: Berlin | Brad B - 8/28/2009 2:52 PM
I was almost temted to join in the conversion, but I sat down for a minute, counted to ten, and the feeling went away... Whew!!! That was a close one.
I have had to do that a lot lately. I always end up asking myself "Self, when is the last time you saw someone change their way of thinking because of an internet discussion?" The answer is always -never- and I erase my message before I submit it.
Have a good weekend all! |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | bradley sitting here taking notes now.... he never learns anything wile he his talking.... but he is wishing everyone a great weekend also and good luck to the merc employes in fondy hope the best for all! |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Just how do we make that happen 894?
Pure capitalism is nothing but a pipe dream. Few places in the world ever practiced pure capitalism and we are certainly no exception.
Socialism is even a bigger pipe dream. There are entirely too many people willing to do just enough to get by instead of their fair share.
So what's left? Exactly what we have. A constantly evolving system of government that is supposed to do what's right for us all. That's a pretty tough target to hit. Cripes, it's hard enough for more than 3 people to agree on a relatively simple topic like the situation with Mercury, much less much more complicated issues like health care and the economy in general. After that, even if we could get most people to listen with an open mind to all sides of an issue, there are darn few of us that truly grasp the suddleties of these issues well enough to predict how they will respond to any action we might choose to make.
IMHO, all we can really hope for is that their are enough politicans out there that understand what makes our economy work and that they care enough to do the right thing even when it's not easy. How many politicians understand that it is not millionaire bankers, lawyers, and son's of senators that drive our economy? Consumers buy products - manufacturers make them. We need BOTH to understand that fact AND to act responsibly if things are going to get better.
With the attitude of the average joe today ("the man with the most toys wins"), I really don't see things getting better until a few more have hit rock bottom. I'm smart enough to survive (although the verdict is still out on my ability to operate a boiler...) and my kids will be prepared as well as I can prepare them. Beyond that, I really don't believe there is much anyone can do.
Times are tough. Expect them to get tougher. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | lol B.... Ah yes the great Walleyesfirst boiler debate! That was great! up until then all i knew about them was enough to stay the hell away because i watched the first Fredie kruger movie in the theator and have never been the same or watched onther since! lol Any way ya spose we cant solve the worlds proplems here. If you need me ill be upstairs in the basement with a needle and thread and some spandex i picked up at the goodwill... combined with my parachute pants from my freshman year. Now i just need to learn to fly and i can save the world... but we are going to have to hope that the people we send to office in the future and those there now wake up and do the hard thing to do and make the choices to put this country back on track so the people of this country can take advantage of there choices and build it back up. when choices dont leave the people of this country with the resources or incentive to prosper there will be little to build on. until then we will all have to streamline at home and i dont care if i havta run an old 16 ft with a 5hp tiller on the back i will get to my rock hump and i will catch my dinner! if i hafta pull the darn thing with a volkswagon rabbit i hafta fix up that i found in the junkyard.... |
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| Did someone say boiler? |
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| I find it funny that the union guy is now complaining that it's not fair for others to decide the fate of his job. Isn't that exactly what they did when they voted last week or for that matter isn't that what unions do everyday in this country? |
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| Rich hold on a minute...you have changed my mind a number of times, if only for a second on this board. At least until I saw the (naky) pictures!!!!!!!
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| Was at business meetings all week with the partners. The operation is almost ready to go, and after 2 years of innovation and a little over $342,000 of investment between the four of us, WE will decide what the correct price for the product will be and what the appropriate wage for the workers will be. The job is very simple and the workers will be compensated appropriately but I can tell you this, if for any reason the work force decides to unionize and demand outrageous compensation for the work that is performed we will have no reservations on moving the operation somewhere else. |
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| RedNeck, I can't believe that you would make those workers work for what you consider a fair wage and not let them unionize and tell you what they are worth. After all all you did was invest years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars into your business. The worker graduated from high school (maybe) and filled out a job application. Don't you think that they deserve to tell you what they should be making and what benefits you should pay for and how much vacation they should get?
I always thought you were a good old boiy, now I see that you are just another greedy corporate business owner who doesn't care for the emplyee at all.
Boy was that hard typing like I was a union hack / liberal sheep! |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | RNT: Congrats on moving forward. Please let us know when you go public. I am more than willing to invest large sums of money into stock for this company as long as you can guarantee at least 15% profit annually. The profit margin is non-negotiable and you must do everything in your power to make this happen regardless if it means relocating, freezing salaries or cutting benefits. remember that as a major stockholder, you may own the company but i am really your boss. Readers note: For those with no sense of humor, the above comments are satire and a parody of the conditions of our economy. Had this been a real and actual thread, I would have begged for a job and told him I would never forgotten that he gave me the opportunity. But of course eventually I would call him a tyrant and demand that I deserve more of his profits. |
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| Additional satire for your entertainment purposes ONLY
And now from the other side of the mouth!
Congrats on finding these 4 investors and pulling together the seed money, your intelectual ability to communicate and negotiate with others is great and you should be compensated for such hard work. What is your investment and what is a "fair" ROI for embarking on this new opportunity to creat profit, jobs and even debt.
Is your risk any greater now than in 2-3 or 10 years when your new sales manager finds a Multi-Million dollar opportunity and you need additional capital, your floor plan just became the property of whom?
As you hire more and more skill sets each and everyone brings greater opportunity and potential and hence should be compensated? Who determines that fairness?
If you continue to grow and stay with the company are you and your 4 buddies still the only ones deserving of making millions how did you get there?
Ten years later when your taking a million dollar bonus and spending your winters in Mexico are you taking this in "fairness" just for having the gonads to take a risk with your buddies?
I'll say it again "The one with the most toys wins" we are a society of "Wants" while our "Needs" have changed, we still "want" more and for less.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/29/2009 9:07 AM
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | oh yes and remember as the major share holder and founder of this future massive capitalistic company you have to understand that your children will see the hard work you put in and the sacrifice , they will continue to build your dream wile you retire and relax on the beach as you enjoy your remaining years and reflect on the massive empire you have built. Your children will also put there sweat and tears into the company and continue to maintain and build in your absence. Ah yes and eventualy the 3rd generation will come along , The spoiled Grandkids sent to collage and now protesting capitalism and corperate greed. With a healthy trust fund and the abuility to live large without wanting to put fourth the commitmemt to continue the family lagacy they will either drive the company into the ground or sell it off to a group of investors who may do with it what they want. The company will now be run on complet stockholder money and anything available that can be transformed into profit will be sold. oh well... another you will have a good run! RNT God Speed and Rember.... Phase one... collect underpants!..... phase 3 ..Profit! |
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| Actually our game plan is simple. Since we have put everything at risk (including homes for some) our only goal is to squeeze the life out of the disadvantaged. We will hire all non-English speaking people so they do not understand when we are laughing at them and planning their demise as an employee. Not only will we take our share to reward ourselves for the risk we took, but we will also reward ourselves by taking more than we should from our workers who will dedicate their lives the daunting skill of using a putty knife, saw and banding machine. In the end we will be looking down on our slave camp that was built at the bottom of the hill from our average 2,500 square foot homes with a beer in our hands and say “We got them good boys, they never seen it coming!” |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | <p>umm RNT... i see a flaw in your master plan... You better stay away from any non english speaking folks or females , or folks of any type of color or even native american background... These groups have powerfull representation and are politicaly connected... Best to stick to White males and shoot for guys in there 40's . You will avoid any future trouble. it would be advantagus if you can hire individuals strapped with child support and beaten down by there now ex wives for years. These (cougars) as we now call them have beaten down your potential employee base so much that they will think of you as a saint and not even flinch when call them names or tell them to skip there lunch break and get the order filled. THIS IS IMPORTAN RNT! you are talking about the future of your GRANDchildren and there abuility to have the chance to use your 250 foot yaght to ram a whaleing ship 40 years from now! your talking about there abuility to have life by the you know what and go threw life smoking weed and picking out hats to wear at the kentucky derby. I would go over your master plan closely and im sure if you share more of your idias your freinds here on walleyesfirst would go out of there way to find anything that could potentialy foil your plan.</p><p>After thinking for a min... RNT you have a great potential employee base right here at walleyes first. We are all folks who can contribute , folks with experianced sales and marketing backgrounds, education back grounds , Boilers! heck You name it! And i dont wanna make any demands but if you build your plant and your big homes on the hill allong side some good walleye water and provide a small fleet of aluminum boats with reliable tillers on them ,,, then roll a few beers down the hill once in a wile from your big shack ... Well um... Ill be the first to re-locate and go to work! just a thaught!</p><p> </p><p> </p>
Edited by bradley894 8/29/2009 10:21 AM
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| Just remember, in order to keep it a true employer/employee relationship the beer cans I roll down hill to you will be empty. |
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| Someone has way too much time on their hands, but nice! |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | maybe you would re-think that position partaining to empty beer cans when you see what we can do with a putty knife! were not talking about a top shelf brew here. Keep the spendy stuff for yourself and roll down some Shafers, Kingsburry, or Natural lite, maybe some of us potential job aplicants even have our own putty knives that we took home in our lunch boxes from our last employers and could save you the investment? im not mentioning any names but what if over the last year or two a lunch box could have privided a future employe of you with his own fork lift? i would keep an open mind RNT. |
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| A fork lift would ruin our ultimate plan to have the work force destroy their bodies from the heavy lifting, thus allowing management to deny better health care coverage with our ultimate goal of stomping on their dreams.
I will concede on your point, I will roll down cans that are full of beer to the workers, you have a good point. However the beer will be marked with expiration dates from 1982.
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | PRESS RELEASE Great News Negotiations With RNT inc and the future employees top secret union have anounce to all future employee's . Put the forklift back togather we wont need it ! WE GET OUR FREE BEER! Chalk one up for the little guy! woooooo hoooo! We have a deal Brothers! Sticken it to the man! thats what im talkin bout!
Edited by bradley894 8/29/2009 11:55 AM
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| You got the name wrong......it's called Fuggem Industries. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | RedNeckTech - 8/29/2009 11:56 AM You got the name wrong......it's called Fuggem Industries. ya what ever you wanna call it for now we Have FREE BEER! and We know who realy has who by the Nuts! RNT you better work on your negotiating because your future employee's will walk all over you! Hey RNT , I would like to introduce to you our new top secret Union boss. He is a bit of a hard nose. Your gonna wanna talk turkey but his name is Komo and i would recomend you Talk Chicken... preferably Brosted!
Edited by bradley894 8/29/2009 12:19 PM
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| After they work in the harsh conditions we are purposely going to put into place along with no fork lifts and keeping them inebriated on cheap, expired beer, they will be in no condition to walk much less walk all over me. |
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| ya and i heard he came from Kentucky....from some form of bottling plant..I THINK it started with a name......Jack something.............something to look forward tooooooooooo |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | RedNeckTech - 8/29/2009 12:29 PM After they work in the harsh conditions we are purposely going to put into place along with no fork lifts and keeping them inebriated on cheap, expired beer, they will be in no condition to walk much less walk all over me. Ya Ya RNT talk talky talk talk.... I say we fire up the Boiler and build some of these misterius widgets and make you rich so we can get back to the negotiating table and trade in those old aluminum tillers for some Rangers with some good old American Black beuties on the Back! |
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| Easy now, only the most qualified person may run the boiler, we don't need our fuel costs needlessly high. Here at Fuggem Industries we take pride in the fact we have the correct and best knowledge on how to keep our company competitive in this down economy. We will not tolerate the waste of excess fuel expenditure.
We also will not re-negotiate and this is out of compassion for the worker. We feel the average worker should be spared the embarrassment of negotiating themselves out of a job.
Edited by RedNeckTech 8/29/2009 1:37 PM
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Location: Appleton wi | Healthy debates and opinions are great and like this thread is one but its like republican/democrate political talk there's 2 sides to every story and legit opinions that no one will change either opinion on what side they are on. There's no question this thread is powered by E-Cell batteries cause like the battery it just keeps going and going. I hope as far as mercury some kind agreement can be made to keep them here, having them moving away will be damaging to this part of the state ! |
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| RNT, as a fellow graduate of Muckraker University, "GO MUCK DUCKS!, I'm sure you are confident due to the many skills and business practices you have learned. After all, you should be able to have it the way you want. You are the one taking the risk, came up with the idea and sold the product so as to create the jobs. All I can say is, when someone gives you a hard time you just look them square in the eye and tell them where you went to school.
Good luck in the future,
JK
MU Class of '78
Point here is, that even in hard times and vivid discussion, there is room for humor. The previous posts did well to lighten what is a very serious debate, thank you. Although there are drastic changes needed in many sectors of life here in the USA. I for one, feel fortunate that I am here. It's the land of the free right? Question is, are we indeed free or are we just allowed freedoms by those in control? And in return, do we as a people always do good and what's right. Or, are we just good at saying what, and exercising our rights. Still. much better here then SO many places on this planet.
As far as Merc and FDL, I hope that there is a resolution. Too much at stake. Too many families in the wake not to steady the ship. I also firmly feel that if they move, the negative feelings of many towards the brand would greatly change the landscape and "motor of choice" feeling here, and all over Walleye Country. Still, that may be just a minor consideration to a maker of outboard motors for a world wide market. After all, we are just a line, not the bottom one. |
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| That parody was fun to do, thank you Brad.
I do wish the Mercury employees well with what-ever they have to do to keep their families going. I find it very disturbing, though, that there are so many people out there that rely so much on others to provide them with a lifestyle. This is America and there is plenty of opportunity out there, one just has to get over the fear and get out there and pursue it. I put my money and time at risk with the hopes it does turn out, after all I want to get my family out of the 1,100 square foot home we live in now and back into a 3,200 square foot home like the one we had 10 years ago. The product we are going to produce will never be sent to China…it can’t, the raw material cannot be found over there in abundance and to ship it back and forth would be astronomical.
Everyone has the opportunity to pursue a dream in this country, cannot say that about anywhere else. It is a long and tough row to hoe and not everyone is cut out for it, but if everyone just sits around sitting on their hands this economy will never turn around.
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | yes risk and fear is what will hold many back and yet only a certain kind of individual is wiling to make the jump. Many are content to go to work and come home after punching the clock. many are darn good at these jobs too! We are all parts of the big machine so what ever path you chose comes with risk and reward. many who own there own buisness dont take time off for many many years wile others chose a path that will give them X amount of vacation , benifits and more consistant hours. There are advantages and disadvantages to both... For me im just trying to get my daughter threw her second year at UW Madison and i have a 16 year old son who still needs some backup. In time i may chose to make a move in my own direction but for a wile yet my priority's are what they are. lay low , get threw the next few years and go from there. I also wish those from merc both corperate (in this wicked Market) and those employed durring this time making the tuff decision. lets face it .. if the industry wasnt running on 40% production of what it was a couple years ago i would guess we would be looking at a different situation.. The Union members by the next contract would all but have retired and the changes would have been made to 401 k's and pay scales with the newer younger generation. ya maybe not like the good old days of a strong union and plenty of money to be made by all but still a profitable pridefull operation could maybe have servived. ONE THING IS FOR CERTAIN! We made our beds! the political candidates suported with union Dues and votes for years have supported an anti buisness climate in this state. On the other side of the fence the so called conservitive oposition has also turned out to be indivicuals who are not who they apear to be. carefull considieration must be made over the upcomming years to make sure the individuals who have the stones to represent the people the way they want to be represented can servive the nomination process so we the people reguardless of what side of the fence you stand on can chose from a qualified representive rather than settle for the less of two evils which has become the norm today. after re-reading all of the posts it is my conclusion that Merc was faced with little choice here and the emplyee's have little say either. Looks like something that needed to be done based on servival and the fact that a turnaround in the market in the neer future for the industry is highly unlikly. its just a darn shame and we are paying with with jobs and prosparity because if past decisions made by political opertunistic individuals thinking they can cut back on our fossil fuel production and force feed alternative methods of energy just a hair before its time. things need to progress naturaly and with natural demand or you have a generation of K cars produced or the econamy can take such a hit that future tax revinue and budget demands will also have to be cut because there is no money being made to tax... fine line we walk ah? I have 100 bucks that says the county will aprove the sales tax even though Merc will be moving there corperate office anyway! the offer from the State of ok is too good to pass up folks. get ready for a sales tax increase fon du lac county because the opertunistic individuals in office will no doubt try to take advantage of this situation to gain support for the vote. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | still, it does feal like someone close has passed on this morning. i dont like it AT ALL!
Edited by bradley894 8/31/2009 10:29 AM
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voting results for merc