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Location: Rhinelander | The face of professional walleye angling has changed dramatically over the years, and lately the 'buzz' has focused on perhaps one of the most controversial developments in the Sport.
The concept of forming 'teams' to fish a competitive event is hardly new, it's the base upon which the MWC was built. Teams of two anglers were the very idea, and the format has worked very well; yet even on the Team Circuits, larger 'teams' are forming and pooling knowledge and resources.
Some feel the formation of the organized prefish and tournament time groups has damaged the sport, usually offering ethereal ideals in arguing against the practice. Those who support the practice offer more functional and reality based arguments, but either side can offer a good argument based upon perceived effects on the business.
During the final day live webcast from AIM, the winner talks about prefishing the area in which he won at the advice of his team partners. At the Red Wing FLW, the Top 3 were 'working together'.
I'm curious what both the Anglers think of the practice, and perhaps as importantly, what the fans think.
If one doesn't like info and resource pooling, and would prefer the practice to be prohibited, how would enforcement be achieved?
What are the advantages/disadvantages, to the 'teams' AND to their competitors? To the fans of the sport?
Without singling any one 'team' out or naming names, let's hear your thoughts.
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Location: Darboy USA | Great topic Steve, and I do agree that the "team" concept is really gaining momentum in the last few years. I guess my own personal opinion is that the "team" concept is a good idea due to the costs associated with fishing premier walleye events. On top of entry fees, an angler has motel, food, gas (huge bill lately), bait, etc. Add to that the lack of vacation time some have, or needing to work as many hours as possible to earn a living since fishing doesn't pay as much anymore, and all are very good reasons to pool resources, fishing time, etc.
While I see the reason why it makes sense and is a good idea, I do also feel in some cases it promotes illegal practices and shortcuts by competitors. Maybe not at the top levels, but some smaller local events could be compromised because of it. Hard to argue against the use of cellphones and even hand signals between "teammates". I saw it in a PWT event on Bago a few years ago while fishing for fun.
While I've been part of a team in the past, I think the only way it really works is if there is a financial stake in it from everyone. Example would be if team is comprised of 3 anglers, then 1/3 of any winnings from each goes into a pot that is divided at the end of the year 3 ways. If there is no money at stake for everyone, what is there to say I'm really going to tell my partners EVERYTHING that I've found and know? I don't think that happens unless all have equal shot to gain.
I don't think there is any way to regulate or outlaw teaming up with others, but will be interesting to see where it goes for future events. I'm really curious to hear from some of the bigger names in the industry to see how they make teams work for them. Like I said, the only way I think it makes sense is to share money.
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Teams are here to stay... The degree of cooperation is over a broad spectrum. Some "teams" share all info and do assigned prefishing, even assigned fishing during the event. As far as signals... it is gonna happen. Look at the idea that is not part of any prohibited conduct. Each team member is to fish an assigned area/pattern from start to 9:00am. They are not to leave if they have success. At 11:00 they are to fish another assigned area, unless they have success. The other team members need only be able to identify their teammates boat to know who is doing well and where.. they can then follow that pattern. Three or four teammmates can cover a lot of maybes and be "helpful" to each other without any on the water communication. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | My only problem with teams is that they discourage new anglers from getting into the game. I think that's the case in smaller circuits which we don't really have any of any more (at least on the pro-am level). For example, it was frustrating for me to go fish a league event on water as big as Green Bay by myself (4 hours from home) knowing that there were 4-5 teams with 3-5 boats each.
I can't cover the thousands of acres of water like they can, I'm not from there and don't know it as well. Knowing that you're fishing against 95% of the people that have a lot more experience than you on that water and that half of them are working in teams make it hard to justify spending the money.
I understand why they do it, it gives them an advantage. I just think that unless you're in a team to start with you're going to have an even bigger hill to climb. | |
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Location: Omro,Wi. | There is no way to stop it, so it is a mute question. With the money for entrance fees, gas,time off work,and bait prices, you may as well join a reliable team if you can. Rookie said it best "I can't cover the thousands of acres of water like they can, I'm not from there and don't know it as well." or have the time to learn it for that fact. Besides all of us who have been in a tournament and either had the bite dye or not found a good bite have wished for some helping hands at one time or another. It's fine with me as long as my team is better than the other guys...LOL | |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | I agree, it's here to stay and impossible control, even if it were banned. I think it does inhibit the growth of tournament fishing though by discouraging possible newcomers from competing, unless they're part of an established "team". If walleye fishing and the team concept grow to the right level, I think it could open the door for an "Elite" series, where there is no prefishing, and working as a team is not permitted in any manner. Greg's example is almost impossible to control under any circumstance though. | |
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| Just look at the number of entries in the latest aim and flw tourneys. The same group of pros are going to fish every event with their "teams" and a few locals or newcomers will try and fish them. But, once they realize you can't compete with the "teams" they won't continue to fish. If the aim circuit is supposed to determine the best fisherman who can catch the most and biggest fish, why don't they do it on their own? If you are the best fisherman shouldn't you be able to figure the bite out on your own? | |
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Location: Berlin | Scott, the answer is no unless it is an even playing field. Take Green Bay for instance, can one person compete against a team of 4 boats? Only if they are extremely lucky or know the body of water like the back of their hand. There is just too much water for one boat to cover. I don't have a problem with it but I will tell you from personal experience it is hard to find the right guys to team up with. Money makes some people do strange things. If I were to fish at the "pro" level I would have to fish on a team that shares money. That is the best way to keep everyone honest and upfront with information.
Like them or not the teams that can make it work have the best odds of winning. Finding that many guys that get along and can work together well is harder then winning tournaments  | |
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| i fish tournaments and rich you nailed it on the head | |
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| Most of the guys that fish tournaments around here, me included, 'buddies up' with other boats and shares pre-fishing info. One of our buddies won a decent sized tourney last year, and thanked his 'team mates' at the presentation. The tourney director approached him afterwards, and asked him to refrain from doing so in the future.
I watched the coverage of last years MWC Championship, and the winners thanked their 'team mates' while up on stage.
I seriously don't see how you could stop people from doing it. | |
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| One step at a time....CRR still needs to be carried through the entire tournament world....then you will realize what is REALLY important. Fishing IS an individual sport and you will never grow it until everyone plays that way. Enforcement becomes a moral thing just like culling and slot limits in the current team (2man) format.
I honestly don't believe you will grow until you develop a model where a person is paid to fish and wins other peoples, money here you will find a professional sport that will grow.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| one more thing. the "elite" tourney should be for all no need for one group to be any different that the other. Also no prefishing, no talking with others including locals or guides, no sharing of infromation etc etc... I believe that is something being done in the Bass world already! | |
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| Fishing with a team of boats does take the luster away from the sport. Part of the prerequisite in being called a pro is to find the fish yourself, not be given hints or suggestions or outright told where to fish. Severe monetary retribution would be a suitable deterrent to enforce compliance. | |
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| I fished a tournament last year as a co-angler where one of the Pro's had a guide come in from out of state to do his prefishing before he showed up and his partners download waypoints for him each morning.
I am not sure how you will ever police what is going on.
I know the PWT had a rule where a Pro could not hire a guide before a tournament and that never stopped anybody. | |
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| If your worried you can't compete against teams think again. Do your homework put plenty of time in on the water and you will do just fine. I personally find it helpful to work with another boat but would never get involved with a big groups. Big groups are not always the best either because if your not familiar with the people someone will withhold valuable information and then from there it gets ugly. Find some friends to fish with have fun and all will be fine. Competing against the big teams could be intimidating if you let it be!!! One more comment Politics even finds its way into fishing!!! | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | If NASCAR can do it and thrive, competitive fishing can and should do it. Major league teams exchange video of each other before each game.
Create a better team than the rest and quit whining--or don't play the game. "those damn Yankees!" | |
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| Teams are here, have been here, and will be here in the future. I don't see any way they could be banned. You're on the road, sharing expenses, so even if it was banned, you're going to share info, with someone. Heck, I've even seen it where a member of one team blabbed to members of another team 2 nights before the tourney began!
I don't see anything wrong with it. I've heard people in teams complain about it. Good teams will rise to the top, just like good anglers will. The excuse of being a newbie, and not having the opportunity to be on a team is hooey. If you are good enough to fish a "Pro" level tourney, you'll have information and insight to share. Somebody will find you valuable. Find them, and form a team. Hard work, honesty, and trust are the key ingredients. Pull your weight, don't hold back, and you'll be a good teammate. Once the trust is questioned, it's over for that team. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Teams are the way to go for competitive walleye tournament fishing. There is, as I see it, no way to get around them. It's been said multiple times in this forum that given the expense of travel and tournemant fishing anglers must share expense in order to make it work. I cannot see how I could sit in a room with some of my best friends and not share the info.
The relationships I forged with my tournament partners are, to me, worth more than anything I could have ever earned on the tournament circuit. Dan Plautz, Pat Schuette, Danny Plautz, and Jeff Taege....those guys are both my family and friends. If it were not for Team Walleye fishing I would not have these relationships.
I feel for the new guy coming up, trying to make it work, on his/her own. That is why I would suggest a newbie to the sport to spend a year or two traveling as an amateur, take in as much as you can, forge some relationships, and try to become part of one of these teams. That is how I got started. | |
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| Bass Classic rules: A good model for all tournaments! Not really "team" related but addresses the sharring of information issue well!
3. PRACTICE AND COMPETITION:
(i) The tournament waters shall be off-limits to all Pro contestants 30 days prior to the first practice day in all Elite Series, Bassmaster Majors, and Bassmaster Classic events unless otherwise notified by BASS. During the 30 day off limits periods, other than using publicly-available information (e.g. newspaper and Internet reports) Pro competitors cannot solicit, receive, or gather any information via phone, electronic devices, or any other means about locating or catching fish on tournament waters. THERE SHALL BE NO EXCEPTIONS. For a first offense, the competitor will be disqualified from the tournament. For a second offense, the competitor will lose his eligibility for the following year's Elite Series events. During practice and competition Pro anglers cannot solicit, receive, or gather any information from co-angler contestants in the tournament. NO EXCEPTIONS. There will be no off-limits for co-anglers.
(ii) There will be an official practice period immediately preceding the first competition day of the tournament. Bassmaster ELITE SERIES Official practice will be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday prior to the first competition day. Bassmaster Major Official Practice will be Monday and Tuesday prior to the first competition day. No competitors will be allowed on Tournament waters after registration until the first day of competition, except under rule 3(iii). Unless otherwise specified, all official times are specific to local host community. The competitor must know and observe these dates. During both the official practice and the tournament, a competitor may not have the assistance or advice of anyone for the purposes of locating or catching bass, nor enter the tournament waters with anyone who has been on the tournament waters during the off-limits period including, but not limited to, a professional guide, state or federal wildlife agency employee, or any other person deemed an "expert" on these tournament waters by the Tournament Director, unless they are a competitor in the tournament. Co-anglers are not allowed to share information with Pro contestants. NO EXCEPTIONS. Flying over tournament waters during official competition is not allowed.
(iii) Anglers renting boat slips may launch boats and proceed immediately to slip location. Testing of engines during off-limits period is not permitted on tournament waters. Testing of engines after the weigh-in is only allowed with permission from the Tournament Director. No Exceptions. During the official practice and during the tournament, a competitor may not "SKIN DIVE" OR "SCUBA DIVE" in the tournament waters.
(iv) No competitor may buy or barter a fishing location from any other competitor for use during any competition day.
(v) During the official competition days of the tournament, a competitor may not use a CB radio, a VHF marine-band radio, a cellular phone, or any other type of communication device for the purpose of locating or catching fish. Competitors are permitted to transmit by radio or telephone only in the event of an emergency. If so equipped, competitors may listen to the marine-band weather information.
(vi) A designated tournament official must be granted access to the competitor's boat at any time during the official practice or competition days. Failure to grant such access may result in immediate disqualification.
(vii) Each competitor agrees to report to the Tournament Director any violation or infraction of any Tournament Rules. Failure to report violations, or suggestions to another competitor that they violate these Rules, or false verification of weigh-in forms will be cause for disqualification.
By signature on the Elite Series participation agreement or the official entry form, each competitor agrees to submit to a polygraph examination and abide by its conclusion should he/she be accused of any rule violation. The BASS Tournament Director or rules committee or such person designated by the Tournament Director shall have the discretion to determine the need for a polygraph examination. The BASS Tournament Director or his/her designee shall be responsible for selecting an independent expert to administer and interpret the results and establishing, in consultation with the expert administrator, the scope of the questions which may be asked during the polygraph examination. The BASS Tournament Director or his/her designee shall attempt to have the location of such polygraph examination as close in proximity to the angler's permanent address or such other mutually convenient location as possible. The competitor shall make himself/herself available at the location selected by the Tournament Director and shall cooperate in all respects with such examination. Anglers taking a polygraph examination may be responsible for any and all cost incurred.
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| Wouldn't (iv) above pertain to a violation for a team that shared costs and winnings? If Bass can enforce it why can't the Walleye world?
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| I'll agree that teams are hear to stay but I'd like to make a few comments (for what it's worth.... afterall everyone has an opinion right or wrong)
1 - Sharing of expenses? Really? What other then the hotel and that's the lowest cost factor of the entire tournament. Unless you stay in a 5 start swanky place. Be real, that is a poor excuse.
2 - I keep hearing that in the old days "pro's" did not team up, yet they got along when they hit shore. Now that sounds appealing and FUN. Is FUN allowed in tournament fishing? From my 5 year experience I'd have to say not so much.... Lot's of jealousy and strange behavior... within teams and across teams....
3 - A much more disasterous problem with walleye tournaments is all the "friends" pro's make at common bodies of water. Some of these "friends" are top notch anglers that have no interest in tournament angling due to many legitimate reasons. These "friends" basically put their buddies on fish so the "pro" only has to figure out the presentation. Not so easy for the newbie and makes the playing field more then tilted.
4 - Integrity - not sure I dare touch this one but many of the things said above boil down to integrity. Seems to be a rather gaping hole when it comes to chasing the elusive tournament walleye. Rules are made to play by. Follow them or don't play.
There - got that off my back.....
Kurt | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Like I've said, I don't dislike teams as a whole, but it makes it hard to compete on big water. There's a big difference between fishing against teams on water you know well versus going to hundreds of thousands of acres and trying to pre-fish.
I always find it funny that so many of the tournament guys only consider home water when talking tourneys. We're talking two different levels here. I feel the way I do because I traveled all the way across WI to fish against you guys on your home waters all the time.
Explain to me how 4-5 boats fishing Green Bay (which they know very well) is not an advantage over me in my one boat trying to figure out the hundreds of thousands of acres that I fish once every year or two recreationally. My problem isn't with the teams, it's the fact that I have to spend more money to fish there than 95% of the other entrants and still I have 3-4 less boats worth of info.
That being said, the checks I've cashed on bodies of water farther away from home have been worth more to me than local checks. But at the end of the day, those checks don't pay the bills or even cover expenses. If it comes down to dollars and cents for me to decide if I'm going to fish a tourney 3-4 hours away, the team thing will be a factor in my decision.
It's also funny how many guys want to "Team Up" with you when a big event is going to be on water you know well. I get more phone calls and emails on years when a big event is going to be held on the Mississippi than any other time. Would those guys have called me if a championship was going to be held on Erie? I have a few boats I share some info with, but those are personal friends that are not based on personal gain.
Those folks are people I speak with because they treat me well and expect the same in return. We don't ask anything of each other, but instead BS and share some info when we can (even when it's not tourney time). Teams are here to stay, but like it or not they're not helping draw new anglers in. | |
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| Rich S. knows how I feel about the "Team" thing. I think we spent most of the ride back from a Saginaw Bay MWC tournament arguing and discussing it. I don't like the idea one bit. You will never convince me otherwise. I have a group of good friends that I BS with and may share how the day went, but we are not really working together. We mainly talk to make sure we aren't in each others way during the tournament. How can you have a true Pro rating system with the "Team" thing going on. I've fished with some good guys on the pro tours. They all are great fisherman with no one person seeming that much more talented than the other. Yet none of them are anywhere close to each other on the rating system. Lets face it, most of us are good enough to catch fish when we are on fish. That's the easy part. Very few guys are really good at finding fish though. You get a group with one or two of those guys in there, and they can make everyone in the group look good. My old partner Rich S, is great at both finding and catching fish. I am very good at catching fish, but do lack in the department of finding fish. Because of him, we have cashed some nice checks together. Yes, we both worked great as a team to catch those fish, but he was always the first to come up with the idea on how to find the fish. Without him, I would maybe have half the good finishes i have.
Like I said, I hate the whole "Team" idea, but I realize it will never go away. I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what you do. Luck will always play a huge role in every tournament. All you can do is just try to increase the odds of getting lucky, just like we use to do in High School.
Just my 2 cents... | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even. "Quoting Mark O"
Mark, you may have just hit something right on the head. Practice periods. 2 weeks and teams.
Lets start with, if you have 3 days to pre-fish, what are the odds that everyone in the field will find the same fish as you? not as good as 7 days? Would there be a reason to need a team if you went out and found fish and there was limited time for everyone else to find the same? How about actually wanting to tell others of your fish at that point? I hate tellin'. I like bragging, LOL, but hate tellin'.
I think It would also put new blood in contention. It would also protect the old guard. The new guys would have the ability to find spots that the old guard did not. They would be able possibly hide the bite with the shorten period. The old guard has many irons in the fire on there side and that would help for the return to familiar waters.
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 5/27/2010 4:34 PM
I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even. "Quoting Mark O"
Mark, you may have just hit something right on the head. Practice periods. 2 weeks and teams.
Lets start with, if you have 3 days to pre-fish, what are the odds that everyone in the field will find the same fish as you? not as good as 7 days? Would there be a reason to need a team if you went out and found fish and there was limited time for everyone else to find the same? How about actually wanting to tell others of your fish at that point? I hate tellin'. I like bragging, LOL, but hate tellin'.
I think It would also put new blood in contention. It would also protect the old guard. The new guys would have the ability to find spots that the old guard did not. They would be able possibly hide the bite with the shorten period. The old guard has many irons in the fire on there side and that would help for the return to familiar waters.
Closed practice was in place for at least a couple whole seasons on the PWT. Various lengths of 4 days or 5 days of practice was used. All it did was increase the use of local info and made for more crowding of tourney anglers on community spots.
The anglers decided, by majority vote, to end closed practice periods. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Steve Fellegy - 5/27/2010 4:49 PM
Closed practice was in place for at least a couple whole seasons on the PWT. Various lengths of 4 days or 5 days of practice was used. All it did was increase the use of local info and made for more crowding of tourney anglers on community spots.
The anglers decided, by majority vote, to end closed practice periods.
I think that was about 12-14 years ago. Times have changed and the teams have become more agressive than they were back then. They have morphed into bad animal. | |
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| This is a subject that has been painted with a broad brush. First of all, this is absolutely not a reason to sit on the sidelines of tournament fishing. I started competitive angling because I loved fishing and I loved competition. That is still one of the main reasons I am in the sport today. Besides my family and God it is one of the most important things in my life.
I worked my way up through team circuits, exchanging a piece of knowledge here and there. When I thought I was ready to fish with the big dogs, I through my hat in the ring. I fished my 2002 year as a PWT rookie and solo angler. Fishing alone, eating alone, rooming alone. I was fortunate enough to make the Championship that year. Let me tell it was a pretty lonely season. That being said it was the greatest year of tournament fishing I have had.
YOU HAVE TO PLAY TO WIN!
This is a, "if you cannot beat them join them", deal.
There is no way to stop it, so it is kind of silly to even talk about it. What am I doing I should be packing for Brimley!
Tommy Kemos | |
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| While I will never agree with the team thing, I understand why guys do it. When my Dad fished tournaments, very, very few people worked in teams. Thats what I grew up knowing and learning. Times changed and people had to adjust to stay competitive. I just wish it could be different. I don't make a living fishing, so I can approach a tournament any way I like. For those that do it for a living, it's different. Like Tommy said, its definitely a "if you can't beat them, join them" deal. | |
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| You all seem to be saying the same thing.....you will never grow because of teams, and teams are here to stay, Well I don't think we can have it both ways....and as a FAN I think this remains a rich mans sport only to be comapred to Golf as an individual sport, not Nascar where Teams with lots of money win every time. There are many teams that share expenses and winnings, been that way a long time. Is that really right? I and many that I know will NEVER jump in that game.
Give me 5 or 10 boats one night a week and 10 or 20 guys that love to fish, the biggest fish takes home the gas money. Your not allowed to prefish and your not allowed to share information and you don't know your partner till you get to the launch, thats my kind of tournament! Bass has it right and everyone needs to look closer at that model, we have enough tourney directors trying to make the big bucks, we need the clubs first. Denny can you imagine only 1 200 or 300 boat tourney on the wolf in the spring with no prefishing for 7 days before? and 20 or 30 club events before that trying to qualify for the big one?.......your "team" is your club, thats it.....share what you want while "learning/teaching the sport but when you make it to the big show it's all up to you and you alone.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| It is here to stay and there is no way to stop it…this is the only sport I know of where that could take place. The players dictate to the sport instead of the sport dictating to the players on this subject. If “teams” are going to be tolerated then at least develop the sport into a true “team” activity. Personally the sport would be more interesting to watch if it were a true “team” concept. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | It is what it is………
It may not be the same game it was years ago but that may not be bad either. It is just different and anglers need different skills now. Technology has had a big impact. Computers have changed all walks of life including tournament fishing.
When I originally entered events with the PWT and FLW Tour, I had the same feelings as most of you. I felt that the team concept discouraged new anglers from getting into the game. I could not compete alone on huge bodies of water knowing that teams could cover more area and options. I did not like that they had a competitive edge over me because of friendships and/or alliances.
Now, I realize that the tournament game is different than what my original expectations were. To be a good tournament fisherman you must be good at computer skills and have good communication skills. You need to develop trusting relationships and be able to decipher good info from bad. It is just as important to decipher what you see and hear from people as what you see and hear on the water from Mother Nature’s clues.
You must be good at surfing the ‘net to find information.
You must be good at surfing the ‘net to find people willing to help.
You must be good at surfing the ‘net to find fisheries data.
You must be good at surfing the ‘net to find hotels, bait shops, weather forecasts, water temps, lake history etc.
You need to be trusted and trust a select group.
You need to know how to hide fish from spying boats when you are prefishing.
You need to know how to keep your mouth shut and not beat up “your fish”
Two closing thoughts…………
I believe that banning the team concept would produce fewer fish at weigh-ins and less excitement for the spectators/viewers of the sport.
I believe that the rules of BASS makes cheats out of most. It is not as rampant or apparent but you are fooling yourself if you think it does not happen.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Well, It kind of shows its face. When it all started the guys who were fishing were mostly guides and resort owners. They had good reasons to win a major new event. Since then they have morphed into tournament anglers getting in the game. You knew it was going to be thet way, thats what was built. That is when I believe the game changed. Wickedly large payouts started and everything was blowen out of proportion. What is funny is I play a game with some other avid walleye fans at every flw and aim event. When picking players, you better know what team they are on and what kind of fisherman they prefer to be I.E. Trolling, jigging, rigging....etc...
Its here to stay? Hmmmm..... I would believe that SOME who are not playing the GAME any longer are making that choice based on how the game is being played.
Edited by stacker 5/28/2010 11:39 AM
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| Team or no team, you still have to find fish and figure out what thier liking for the hour. I personally don't by the whole people are locals at the lake so they have an advantage. Seems quite the opposite if you look at the history, as the pros put it, "I fished memories and it killed me". Look at Brett King at Green Bay last year, certainly not a local boy, but he and a couple of others figured out the bite, none of them were locals. I did fish with a well know local angler at Green Bay last year, we went in the first day with 5 fish instead of 7 at the AIM event. He has a pretty good size "team" too. Weather switched and it hurt hiim.
Don't compare walleye fishing and bass fishing. They are two very different fish. Bass are not exactly known to be finicky.
You have to remember, some of these guys do this for a living, they fish. Anyone that knows anything about walleye fishing knows, you can prefish for 14 days straight if you want, bottom line, water drops 10-15 degrees, or a wind switch the night before a tournament, you are starting over anyway.
Team or no team, these guys know where the fish should be at most times of the year. Hey, I know maybe we should make sure they all have an HDS 10 too , only fair, not really fair to the guy who can only afford a 522. | |
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| I think a good idea would be to put the anglers on a body of water without know wich lake it is and without being able to pre fish. The night before they all get the same packet of info to review which includes lake maps, past fishing reports, etc. | |
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| I do agree that those of us who fish might be at a disadvantage in tourneys but in the same vien, many of us do work information from other friendly sources and sometimes competitors that might throw us a bone when things are desperate during our prefishing trials and disasters.
Those who have a lifetime of fishing a body of water with dads, uncles and freinds have a huge advantage over all of us in the game. Those who have fishing tourneys in given waters for years and years also have a jump on the game.
Thats life. Through our lives we rely on relationships for jobs, love and survival.
If the field is level with honorable competitors, may the best (and somewhat luckiest) team win.
Take care,
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| Well after following this thread, I was little apprehensive about stepping into AIM due to competing against the "Teams". I asked a couple of guys that I know, but they where already in established groups not looking at taking anyone on. But what the heck I will just have to work a little harder dig a little deeper to be competive, my work background is similar to this.
So I could see how having to compete against Teams with the Big Guns could keep folks away. | |
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| KHedquist - 6/3/2010 6:49 AM
Well after following this thread, I was little apprehensive about stepping into AIM due to competing against the "Teams". I asked a couple of guys that I know, but they where already in established groups not looking at taking anyone on. But what the heck I will just have to work a little harder dig a little deeper to be competive, my work background is similar to this.
Do your homework, study your maps, look for past tourney winning information(some people give up the spot, some give up the presentation, some don't say anything, some just flat out lie, hehehe), get some prefishing help from your local contacts, visit bait shops, ask questions at the ramps, and then do your best using that info in the tourney. Be quick to adapt, keep your ears and eyes open, and analyze it all. Also, remember to thank those who gave you help and information.
When you start placing, and finishing higher without the advantage of the team, other anglers will take notice, and pretty soon, you'll start getting feelers. Teams will start to investigate you, and interview you for a position. You gotta be good, and you gotta be confident, and show you will work just as hard as they do. Do all that, and you will be invited in eventually.
But again, TRUST is an absolute. If you don't trust them, or they don't trust you, then you will not make a good team. You must tell all, and work just as hard as the hardest working member of the team. Take your asignments, and work hard to validate, or eliminate water. Anything less, and you'll be on the outside again.
Good teams stay together for a year or two, and then turn over. Great teams have a core that has been together for years, and have little turnover. They trust each other explicitly, and they all share equally in the work and expenses, and ultimately, in the rewards.
If you are not sharing in all aspects, you are not part of a team. There are informal teams out there, that kind of share info. And they kind of trust each other. And they kind of keep some info to themselves. And that's as far as the sharing goes. Not the ideal team situation. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Shep - 6/3/2010 10:15 AM
KHedquist - 6/3/2010 6:49 AM
Well after following this thread, I was little apprehensive about stepping into AIM due to competing against the "Teams". I asked a couple of guys that I know, but they where already in established groups not looking at taking anyone on. But what the heck I will just have to work a little harder dig a little deeper to be competive, my work background is similar to this.
Do your homework, study your maps, look for past tourney winning information (some people give up the spot, some give up the presentation, some don't say anything, some just flat out lie, hehehe ), get some prefishing help from your local contacts, visit bait shops, ask questions at the ramps, and then do your best using that info in the tourney. Be quick to adapt, keep your ears and eyes open, and analyze it all. Also, remember to thank those who gave you help and information.
When you start placing, and finishing higher without the advantage of the team, other anglers will take notice, and pretty soon, you'll start getting feelers. Teams will start to investigate you, and interview you for a position. You gotta be good, and you gotta be confident, and show you will work just as hard as they do. Do all that, and you will be invited in eventually.
But again, TRUST is an absolute. If you don't trust them, or they don't trust you, then you will not make a good team. You must tell all, and work just as hard as the hardest working member of the team. Take your asignments, and work hard to validate, or eliminate water. Anything less, and you'll be on the outside again.
Good teams stay together for a year or two, and then turn over. Great teams have a core that has been together for years, and have little turnover. They trust each other explicitly, and they all share equally in the work and expenses, and ultimately, in the rewards.
If you are not sharing in all aspects, you are not part of a team. There are informal teams out there, that kind of share info. And they kind of trust each other. And they kind of keep some info to themselves. And that's as far as the sharing goes. Not the ideal team situation.
Hehehehehe Shep.... I sit and wonder...."SElf, I am doing this on my own and placing and doing well, and the teams "Probe" me.....hmmmm......why the hell would I want to join them?" | |
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| and I say "self" if I have to share all my information with other team members...it sounds too much like "work" and fishing is not supposed to be like work! OR IS IT? | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Saying things like just do your homework, or get in and prove yourself are fine on a smaller level. Most of us don't have $3000 to $4000 per event to test ourselves in this economy. If things were better maybe.
Like I said in an earlier post, competing against teams is just one more thing to factor when thinking about making a jump to the big leagues. If you're talking a $100 local tourney then by all means jump in and fish. My fear is that there are 3 kinds of top level tourney guys left today.
Here's the breakdown I have in my head.
1. The team members (elite teams and not so elite teams) 50-60%
2. The rogue old pros/new guys who want to make it on their own 10-20%
3. Dead money who can afford to pay their way to pro status. 10-25%
There will always be that 10-25% of the field that never or rarely ever cash a check in any event. The rogues and new guys are becoming more and more scarce, which leaves us with a high percentage of the anglers being team members.
I didn't mind competing against some of these teams on the FLW League level because I felt fairly comfortable with the waters they fished. I would not however feel as comfortable traveling somewhere that I've never been, especially big water. While I feel that I could go someplace like Devils Lake and catch fish, I don't honestly feel that I could be competitive on year one.
The teams are here to stay, I see no way around it, and I can deal with it. The biggest issue is that there's no mid level circuits out there any more that let you build up to the top level. That's where a lot of those connections are made. Now if you want to fish any pro-am event, you're pretty much limited to the big leagues. Anybody else remember how fun the FLW League events were for the $150 as a boater or even the $300 as a boater? | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | GNWC Rookie - 6/3/2010 2:22 PM
I didn't mind competing against some of these teams on the FLW League level because I felt fairly comfortable with the waters they fished. I would not however feel as comfortable traveling somewhere that I've never been, especially big water. While I feel that I could go someplace like Devils Lake and catch fish, I don't honestly feel that I could be competitive on year one.
The teams are here to stay, I see no way around it, and I can deal with it. The biggest issue is that there's no mid level circuits out there any more that let you build up to the top level. That's where a lot of those connections are made. Now if you want to fish any pro-am event, you're pretty much limited to the big leagues. Anybody else remember how fun the FLW League events were for the $150 as a boater or even the $300 as a boater?
marshall, you were not competitive the first years you started tourney fishing either. with anything there is a learning curve. If you honestly think that you cannot compete with them, then you cannot. If you think you can....welllllll..... you can. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | JohnnyV - 5/28/2010 12:54 PM
Team or no team, you still have to find fish and figure out what thier liking for the hour. I personally don't by the whole people are locals at the lake so they have an advantage. Seems quite the opposite if you look at the history, as the pros put it, "I fished memories and it killed me". Look at Brett King at Green Bay last year, certainly not a local boy, but he and a couple of others figured out the bite, none of them were locals. I did fish with a well know local angler at Green Bay last year, we went in the first day with 5 fish instead of 7 at the AIM event. He has a pretty good size "team" too. Weather switched and it hurt hiim.
I hafta say that the win by Brett at green bay was a good win and I will tell you why. He made the right decisions. No competitor in the event missed the fish that he used to win, Brett just made the right decision to fish them due to the conditions that were present at game time. That, there, is a decision made that would and did not have anything to do with a team. The guys who win have the 6th sense. The good sized team you speak of knew they were there, they just rolled the dice hoping on the better fish to pop somewhere else and they did not.
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Denny,
I never said I was awesome. My point is that I was willing to take the risk because the risk/reward was more balanced for me for $150 than it would be for $1500.
I think I have as much say about this because I have traveled all over the country for almost every event I've fished. It's pretty easy for all the homewater heroes to sit back and talk about how you should just go out and do it.
Funny that most of the same people that won't fish tourneys on the Mississippi because it's too tough (not an open water trolling bite) are the same ones that want to say how you can compete on new water elsewhere by just believing in yourself. Yes you can, but do not expect great results for a few years.
Fact is, I won't spend the money top circuits want unless I either have the same support network or am comfortable where the event is being held. You'd be hard pressed to convince me to travel 600 miles to fish somewhere new for $1500 entry plus another $1500 expenses with never seeing the lake before.
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| Stacker, I know you're not saying it is just as easy to place well in a tournament solo as it is with a team, are you?
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| stacker - 6/3/2010 10:19 AM
Shep - 6/3/2010 10:15 AM
KHedquist - 6/3/2010 6:49 AM
Well after following this thread, I was little apprehensive about stepping into AIM due to competing against the "Teams". I asked a couple of guys that I know, but they where already in established groups not looking at taking anyone on. But what the heck I will just have to work a little harder dig a little deeper to be competive, my work background is similar to this.
Do your homework, study your maps, look for past tourney winning information (some people give up the spot, some give up the presentation, some don't say anything, some just flat out lie, hehehe ), get some prefishing help from your local contacts, visit bait shops, ask questions at the ramps, and then do your best using that info in the tourney. Be quick to adapt, keep your ears and eyes open, and analyze it all. Also, remember to thank those who gave you help and information.
When you start placing, and finishing higher without the advantage of the team, other anglers will take notice, and pretty soon, you'll start getting feelers. Teams will start to investigate you, and interview you for a position. You gotta be good, and you gotta be confident, and show you will work just as hard as they do. Do all that, and you will be invited in eventually.
But again, TRUST is an absolute. If you don't trust them, or they don't trust you, then you will not make a good team. You must tell all, and work just as hard as the hardest working member of the team. Take your asignments, and work hard to validate, or eliminate water. Anything less, and you'll be on the outside again.
Good teams stay together for a year or two, and then turn over. Great teams have a core that has been together for years, and have little turnover. They trust each other explicitly, and they all share equally in the work and expenses, and ultimately, in the rewards.
If you are not sharing in all aspects, you are not part of a team. There are informal teams out there, that kind of share info. And they kind of trust each other. And they kind of keep some info to themselves. And that's as far as the sharing goes. Not the ideal team situation.
Hehehehehe Shep.... I sit and wonder...."SElf, I am doing this on my own and placing and doing well, and the teams "Probe" me.....hmmmm......why the hell would I want to join them?"
Denny, I'm pretty sure I didn't say a word about actually making money. Sure, you might cash a check here or there, but unless you're the winner in the FLW, or in the top 10 in AIM, you're not close to paying your expenses. And I surely didn't imply the teams were going to come running to you for information, although some might. So..... Yep, dong well enough to get someone's attention is exactly what I meant.
Marshall, you are over simplifying the point I am trying to get across. You won't fish Bago, or Green Bay, because you don't know the water. Yet, did you ever consider asking Stacker, or me, or any number of others you know for information and help? Kirt had exactly zero days on Wissota last year. He called me and asked for some help. I gave him what I knew, and I'm sure he talked and maybe prefished with others. I'm sure he "did his homework", studied maps, prefished many days and patterns, etc, and ended up winning the stupid thing! He has maybe 4 days on Green Bay, and yet he has entered the AIM tourney here. I know he's asked at least one person for some info and prefish help. My guess is he has asked others, too.
The point is, IF you truly want to big in the big show, you going to have to "WORK" hard, place high enough to get noticed, and ultimately become part of a team.
As for the Mississippi? The largest check ever won there was won trolling. I think the field was 225+, and I know not all were in teams, and probably half the field had relatively little time on that body of water.
Edited by Shep 6/3/2010 4:39 PM
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| That should read, IF you truly want to be in the big show. | |
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| Stacker,
Yes Brett did make the right decision, but if you do not think there was someone else involved you are dead wrong. I was in a boat with someone on day two that gave Brett key information and yes they are teammates | |
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| For all the bragging that has gone on in the past where tournament fishermen are better at fishing than the average joe, if teams are here to stay then they obviously are not better than anyone else since help is needed from others to find and catch the fish. | |
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| Ok, I'm starting to understand some different points of view on the "team". If they are truely here to stay what can be done to encourage new people to join and be attracted to a team? Some of the points others have made about team members requirements such as loyalty honesty, integrity and down right nice guy but more importantly you need to be qualified to join a team! How many guys like this do you really know? How long would it take to earn those stripes?
How many people are really going to be fishing similar waters to Jim Carrol today or how many are going to head his direction swinging for the fence because of the 2 fish he caught? All that information prefishing the thousands of dollars spent looking for and sharing information with your team only to be thrown out the window after day 1. Is that really the best method to compete in this sport, did any "TEAM" have an advantage on those waters yesterday or did the "TEAM" change the game plan?
If we expect new commers to earn their way and climb the ladder wont we need to have a method that encourages and rewards these people and truely educates them on creating their team, they may have to be drafted and paid appropriately because although he may be the better fisherman he may not be the best person for the sport.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 6/4/2010 1:38 PM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Are you talking a nascar system type thing? Lets say we have the abc team and they have two levels they play in, busch and nascar. and we draft guys on there ability to produce, support and or win. we get the main sponsors and these guys get the chance to run free boats that are returned at the end of the year?
Hmmmmm...... | |
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| oxy-moron - 6/4/2010 1:20 PM For all the bragging that has gone on in the past where tournament fishermen are better at fishing than the average joe, if teams are here to stay then they obviously are not better than anyone else since help is needed from others to find and catch the fish. A good team can make anyone better. Decisions are based on information. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. A team gives you more information than you can gather by yourself. That's all there is too it. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Well said thumper!! | |
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| Denny.......Ahhhhhhh.....Yup. Probably the best "Team" model to follow for marketing product!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Tyee hits on my point. There are no mid level pro/am circuits left. If you want to work your way up to fishing MWC events, then team tourneys are great. While you certainly can create contacts in team events, the truth of the matter is that there is no longer a place for aspiring pros to start fishing pro type format.
The FLW Walleye League was far from perfect, but it did give folks who wanted to move up an opportunity to test themselves on a smaller scale while providing the pro/am feel. Expecting new anglers to jump in head first, even for the FLW $750 is unrealistic. The $1500 for an AIM event is an even harder pill to swallow. How many people do you know that fish their first major event as a pro on the FLW Tour or AIM?
Nascar has jr. levels and has a cult following all the way down to the local dirt tracks. I do not expect the same thing for competitive Walleye fishing, but we need more options. I think the FLW missed the boat when they cut the league in this economy. I feel there are a lot of us that would’ve loved to fish events for $200-$250 per event even though the payouts wouldn’t be huge. The risk wouldn’t have been that huge either.
To me the teams are just another part of the equation. I understand why people do it, and I’m not against it. I am however against the negative impact it’s having. Look at the comments on this thread. Some people feel that it puts them at enough of a disadvantage that they won’t get into events. Some feel that they have to give too much to get in them. Some feel that they discredit the individual anglers talent.
I don’t think they discredit talent or dedication, but can see how an outsider may think that. I’m looking at this from a growth perspective (or currently just to sustain). We need to find ways to keep new blood coming in and keep the current players. Unfortunately those two types usually want different things. A lot of seasoned pros want higher entries for higher payouts (and I don’t blame them), while inexperienced new anglers want to experience tournaments without a second mortgage (also a valid point). Times are tough and pricing new blood out of the scene isn’t going to help.
I like the current tours, but we need something one step down and it’s not out there. Until that happens again, I don’t see the numbers getting any better. Somebody who does well at that level will build the confidence/contacts etc… to move up. | |
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| "A good team can make anyone better. Decisions are based on information. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. A team gives you more information than you can gather by yourself. That's all there is too it."
How much information does one fisherman need? With all the advancements in the industry and new gadgets coming out every year the pro boat is looking more like Darth Vader’s bathroom (Knight Rider Quote) Next will be satellite reconnaissance on fish locations during the event.
Taking an individual’s sport and turning it into a faux team sport may be the direction things are going but it necessarily is not a good thing.
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | "Next will be satellite reconnaissance on fish locations during the event. "
We have that to an extent with radar. "I know where you are" | |
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| "Tyee hits on my point. There are no mid level pro/am circuits left."....GNWC, There never were any! at least in the format that we are discussing here, the teams everyone is used to is more of a buddy buddy system and a don't ask don't tell program, Just to clarify! the "team" I think we are discussing here is the model being adapted within AIM where an angler still fishes with a co-angler and not a "teammate". Or have I missed something?
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I also think That anyone who is even thinking of fishing a flw or aim event probably has fished 100 or more events allready. This is not a starting point, this is the finishing point. Anyone who is going to play at that level is VERY confident in there skills. If they are WORRYing about teams then they are not ready to play at that level. Not everyone will be ready to play at that level. I have said it for a long time, it goes like this...."Nope, not going to slow down so you can run with me, why dont you try to keep up to my pace." | |
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| The concept of "teams" where multiple boats are sharing information before and during the event does not kick the skill level up a notch for the individual and the event, it brings it down. Forming true sanctioned teams is one thing, having individual boats forming their own non-sanctioned "teams" and sharing verbal, electronic or written information during an event, is another and a practice like that is banned in every sport professional and amateur. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The teams I'm talking about work together through the season. They travel, obtain lodging, prefish, and otherwise work together sharing expenses and income. | |
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| sworrall - 6/5/2010 1:10 PM
The teams I'm talking about work together through the season. They travel, obtain lodging, prefish, and otherwise work together sharing expenses and income.
For the most part those mentioned are fine but the original post mentioned knowledge and tournament time help...those are not ethical. If you can travel, lodge and prefish together without it interfering in any way with the tournament results including blunt advise and direct information on fish locations, presentation and other factors then by all means go for it to save expense money. But if that information is being exchanged between the "team" for the purpose of the participation in the tournament then no. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'But if that information is being exchanged between the "team" for the purpose of the participation in the tournament then no.'
It is, and it has been. Why the 'no' answer? Please expand on your opinion. | |
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| That was me.
The no answer is for several reasons. First it is not ethical and that is why it is forbidden in other sports. If it were actual sanctioned team mates and the sport was formed and played around an actual team setting that involved multiple boats that is one thing, but what is going on is more like an alliance between friends and no matter how you manipulate the view it does affect the tournament and outcome.
You cannot have a sport that is presented to be played and won on an individual-Pro/Am one boat basis and turn around and allow a shadow team effort going on in the background...not if you want any credibility. If these "teams" are the wave of the future then adjust the entire sport and form it around a true team model, not a faux one. It is either a team sport or an individual-Pro/Am one boat one...you can't have a mix and just because it has been going on for a while only means the people who should have stopped it dropped the ball.
The entire sport is presented to the public as an individual-Pro/Am one boat sport. If the way the "teams" are allowed to form is tolerated by the industry then present it to the public that way...the support from them may not be what one thinks.
When the winner steps on stage have them say "Thank you Bob for telling me where the fish were, and thank you Tom for telling me the correct presentation I should use, and thanks to Jim for informing me what color lure they are biting on, and thank you Scott..."
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| As for a sponsor stand point why would businesses want to continue to sponsor when the person receiving their money is supposed to promote the company, and the dollars the pro receives is to also help with the move up in the rankings thus creating more exposure for the sponsor...but that same pro is giving tips and information to a competitor that may help the other pro win the tournament and giving a competing sponsor more exposure? | |
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| id like it to be a mono e mono world myself but its NOT! human nature dictates that teams will form. Wallyefishing tournament anglers do not make a living fishing tournaments and im sure if you take a 5 year buisness plan and open the books on even the greatest fisherman out there you will find over the 5 years you coulnt count on one hand the noumber of anglers that made there living fishing strictly tournaments or as a result of the tournament game. the success storys are of successful guids or fishing industry products that spin off from there love of the sport and take off with hard work and good marketing. the truth is that guys will form freindships and groups to share and plan for the tournament game they love. thy will lick each others wounds after a tuff day, they will feed off of each other and dream togather. Its a get away for 75% a dream for 20%( who havent figured it out yet) and for the remaining 10% it supports there fishing related industry source of income.
i know of many teams over the years. teams formed year after year for major tournaments , teams that fished the big cercuits and some fishing the small cercuits.
i think if you ran the noumbers on boats teaming up you will find that over time they do not offer any advantages other than social. cashing the big check is harder as a team. maybe a few more small checks (maybe) and maybe a small edge in a points race situation to qualify for a championship. a good topic to disguss but not a big deal. teams may discurrage some like GNrookie from fealing he can compete or participating. thats a shame. but it over all creates participation as those teams keep its members exited to fish the next event and often talk others into participating and joining them for the fun. call it a team to gain a competive advantage if you want but then explain why a 4 boat team after 3 to 5 days of pre fishing cant post one boat over 5 lbs on baggo. today in the mwc? All locals? advantage.. ya ok... oh and in this little batch of boats before you say ya ,,, whatever..... these boats consist of individual winners of the merc national , otter steet the fleet farm and mwc.... these few boats are solid on baggo all individualy and now when the work togather to figure out a system they all know so well they fall on there faces! i see no advantag. another solid 4 boat team on the bay for the last mws i think had one boat in it that cashed A SMALL CHECK! pre fished for days and if i listed the names you would say WA? just as a late entry of ten boats on friday night doesnt statisticlaly show any advantage come weigh in time. and results. all over rated arguments , just fish, adapt , fish , adapt , and wish for a little luck! you will be fine and have fun spending your money any way you want. as a team. with an hds10 or as a last min. entry,, doesnt mater to me ... just injoy yourself... your paying for it. | |
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| again i go on a ramble above... translation, qualify for the cabella's championship, $$$$$?????? ?... spend 200 a day pre-fishing for a week
1000 $ pay entry to MWC event... why woulnt ya? 700$ bait expenses for a week 100.00 a week off of work ... 600$ wear and tear on boat and truck?
estimated total? 2500.00$ to chase the dream. getting a goose egg on the first day of the tournament? PRICELESS! hmmm? go out with your team and drown your sorrow? or spend hours on the phone with your wife and kids who you havent seen for a week? tuff choice... make the call and take your medicin then go out with your freinds for a sandwich and a beer and make a plan for the morning to catch the big fish of the tournment. teams are fine, you paid for what ever you want. | |
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| If everyone wants teams then make it a team sport with rules governing the activity. You can't have unregulated activities within a sport such as teams and still consider calling it a sport. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Unregulated? The rules of each event are followed to a T. There are no rules against sharing expenses, income, information, as long as it's done within the existing framework. For the most part, it is. | |
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| Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not. I do not agree with the concept of the shadow team for information gathering and pre-fishing, never said anything about expense sharing and the issue others have is not with that part of it either. The rules are too lax in the entire pro fishing world with this.
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| all this talk of teams, ( it's funny) first of all! you don't pay for my entries or my expenses, ( by the way my expenes for bay mills was $3900.) until you pay my expenses shut up (if i use a team or not, it's not your concern) if you want to fish 100 dollar or 750 dollar tourneys that you choice, but you sure in the hell not telling me what im' doing or how i'm going to fish. i'm out there to win.. there only one place and thats first .... you problay want money down to 50 th place to, if you say yes you can't afford to fish, fishing tournaments major tourney is a rich mans sport, plain and simple, and i'm glad because it keeps the ripp rats from fishing, Butt i will still do what i'm doing, and if you come to tourny and talk to me , i will still sit down with you and a with cold beer , and talk to you about world issues. Life is great, JIM Pyle (tournament fishing since 1979 ) | |
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| "until you pay my expenses shut up (if i use a team or not, it's not your concern)"
So asking fan, fishermen, sponsor opinions really means only fishermen | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not.'
That's an obvious difference, as the Co usually fishes with three different Pros during each event.
If Pros choose to tell each other what's happening out there and work together finding fish and establishing working patterns and techniques, I fail to see how that's a 'regulations' issue. There are no 'shadow teams' that I know of, only Pros working together openly, and all want to win or cash a check. How would you suggest regulating the situation, and how would you enforce those regulations on the water and off? | |
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| thats right, why don't you ask me what kind of rules i can make for you?  | |
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| sworrall - 6/6/2010 4:45 PM
'Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not.'
That's an obvious difference, as the Co usually fishes with three different Pros during each event.
If Pros choose to tell each other what's happening out there and work together finding fish and establishing working patterns and techniques, I fail to see how that's a 'regulations' issue. There are no 'shadow teams' that I know of, only Pros working together openly, and all want to win or cash a check. How would you suggest regulating the situation, and how would you enforce those regulations on the water and off?
How would I suggest regulating the situation and enforce the regulations on the water and off...the same way the Co-anglers are regulated and enforced.
Shadow team is referring to the unsanctioned team effort that is going on. You don't have a three boat "Team Lund" all working together for the "Lund Team" to rise to the top in a multi boat team event...you have pro1, pro13 and pro22 scratching each others back in a sport that is supposed to be about individual skill and knowledge to win top prize.
Have all the talk you want about the lake, where the likely spots are that would be hot and anything else you want to a week before the event...but when you arrive in the area and you are fishing the up-coming event all information flow between Pros stops. Getting more information for your benefit is what pre-fishing is for. I don’t think the team effort is ethical in an individual sport.
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| lol: you got to be kidding me.. you can talk to every joe blow until your face is blue. you still have go and catch the fish simple as that. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Explain how/why working as teams is unethical. Each angler still has to put it all together on game day and put the fish in the net. SO... | |
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| First...putting it all together on game day...is that meaning that on a multiple day tournament that all "team" information sharing ends for the entire event at the start of the gun on the first day? | |
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| RNT do you fish any large tournaments? | |
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| proeye - 6/6/2010 9:11 PM
RNT do you fish any large tournaments?
Does that matter? This thread was asking what both the Anglers think of the practice, and perhaps as importantly, what the fans think. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Please don't answer a valid question with a nonsense question, RNT. Answer the question, please, or bow out. | |
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| RNT if your a fan? please enter one of aim tournaments fish as a non boater and prefish wtih us during the week before, after doing this i think you have a better understanding of what were talking about, i'm always looking for good fans thanks JIM PYLE NPPA 811  | |
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| I’m supposed to explain ethics to a practice that doesn’t have a solid meaning….alright…
Ethics are not just for the members in the sport, but they are also for the public and it lends credibility to the sport in the public eye. The sport constantly attempts to remind the public that the Pro-fisherman is not only the cream of the crop of the fishing world but they are also held to higher standards.
The sport is based on individuals competing against individuals, not a group of individuals ganging up on single individuals. You want to be called a pro in an individual’s sport but yet rely on groups of others in the hopes you win…that is ethical? It gives a plain disadvantage to fishermen that don’t have teams in a sport that is not meant to, set-up for or required to have teams. The game is rigged. These team members are not registered, sanctioned or accountable to the sport as a team, and on stage no one knows if the win is due to team information. There is no accountability as to why the information was given to a particular player or if it gave an unfair advantage over the other fishermen. The teams are not regulated and have no guidelines they have to follow…where are the ethics in this?
Fisherman22 pays $1,500 to fish a tournament but fishermen 2, 4 and 7 decided they want to team up. 2, 4 and 7 have come to an agreement that they will pool their knowledge and take turns using the information at different tournaments allowing each to have a greater chance at winning a tournament. #2 gets all the information at Red Wing, #4 gets all the information on Bago and #7 gets all the information for Saginaw. Meanwhile #22 is solo at every event and just because he does not have the top secret groupie decoder ring and hand shake he is put at a severe disadvantage. Meanwhile the directors sit by and say “so what?”
#2, 4 and 7 are allowed to cover 3 times the ground for the gain of one player while others can’t…and it’s allowed. No ethic problems there? You have no idea that is not going on because you refuse to reign in the activity and regulate it.
Pro2 gets a cash sponsorship from Billy’s Big Old Boats for $5,000 and Billy expects his paid pro to do well and bring his boat company into the lime light but pro2 is in a “team” and he gives information to Pro5 resulting in Pro5 catching a walleye giving Pro5 a first place win…Mr. Billy is supposed to be happy with that?
Where does it end? Yes, I believe the practice is unethical unless you change the name of the game to teams.
Proeye, would love to meet you sometime.
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Location: Rhinelander | OK, Pros, explain to RNT how some Pros work together, please.
Then let's hear from those who don't like the idea of Pros working together how they would regulate the practice.
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| The moment tournaments went from a friendly competition between buddies to a sport that engages and asks for support from the public, it lost its sole authority to navigate in the direction that just the players wanted. The sport is no longer a bunch of friends getting together and playing a little game of wager for fun but rather a merchandise driven industry has arose with the top public figures being the Pro-fishermen. Along with the tournament directors, the pros engage the public for financial support of the sport along with aspiring to grow fan bases. The public includes me…and many, many others that are fans of the sport but do not agree with all the decisions or directions the industry decides it wants to embark on.
The main (and pretty much only) ways that are allowed by the industry for the general public to give input about what is going on is either through the pocket book or a few websites. The public can choose not to espouse the sport monetarily or it can venture to a website and vent frustration there…the first is the safer route. Why? Because it becomes dreadfully apparent the lion's share of the industry does not want to hear the negative…just the positive pat on the back.
Teams…like them? Don’t like them? Respond in the negative and something happens that other sport would cringe at…the person gets attacked. Many times it is not on the merit of the response but rather the writing style the individual uses. When anyone in the industry asks for honest opinions the reaction from the response should not be visceral.
I gave my answer to the question and chose to put it in the form of a hypothetical scenario with no intention of malice. I shortly found out that my answer was taken that way. I can only assume it was the wording “You want to be called a pro in an individual’s sport but yet rely on groups of others in the hopes you win…that is ethical?” The response was not aimed at anyone but rather give the overall view of a large portion of fishermen who do not like the practice along with the nagging fact that a much larger portion of the public has a unenthusiastic view of the sport…something the industry has a hard time comprehending. Would I re-word it if I could…no. It was never meant to be taken personal by anyone (along with the entire post) but for some insane reason this whole industry takes all criticism as if they are getting slapped in the face personally.
It gets old when an industry or individual cannot take constructive criticism without trying to paint the person with an anti-pro fisherman, anti tournament brush. Any one who knows me, actually talked to me or has been involved with what I do knows that I am concerned with the industry and want to see it on a firm footing again. My question is when someone becomes a pro fisherman or a leader in the industry what gives them immunity from being told to straighten up…the sport was not meant to be this way. Teams have ambiguity surrounding them and it is very apparent not only in fishermen who do not want to fish with them involved, but also the public…whom the industry engages for support. I have now heard three different reasons on why teams are formed along with how and when they team up. Is it just to share expenses? Is it to share information during pre-fishing? Is it to share information during the duration of the event? What is it…what is the definition of a “team” and under what parameters do they function under? There is an image problem with “teams” and no one, and I mean no one has any right to complain about that image when the industry created it by not clearly defining it for the fishermen, and more importantly the public.
If the overall stance in the sport is “I pay so I will play how I want, it is none of your business because you don’t tournament fish”… then stop approaching the public for support and bring the sport back to its roots as a friendly competition among buddies. If the industry keeps courting the public…then handle it. The criticism is not coming from PETA trying to shut the sport down for crying out loud, it’s coming from people who, believe it or not, are just as concerned as you but happens to see thing at different angles. Why post this on two sights? It has a 50% chance of being deleted.
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| I would argue that working with teams makes you a better angler and broadens your exposure with new ideas and approaches. I would also argue that idividuals are at a distinct disadvantage becasue of shear logistics. Solution, develop networks of fishing freinds as you do in your normal social networking. In all forms of life, this is a normal cycle of relationships. It just happens to be fishing. People find jobs via relationships, join various sporting teams through relationships, join churches groups, social groups......
Man has learned long ago that he can not survive alone. Join the crowd.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'The response was not aimed at anyone but rather give the overall view of a large portion of fishermen who do not like the practice along with the nagging fact that a much larger portion of the public has a unenthusiastic view of the sport…something the industry has a hard time comprehending. '
'The main (and pretty much only) ways that are allowed by the industry for the general public to give input about what is going on is either through the pocket book or a few websites.'
I am absolutely certain that isn't true.
'My question is when someone becomes a pro fisherman or a leader in the industry what gives them immunity from being told to straighten up'
My answer is simple as well, you do not have any base or grounds personally to tell anyone in any industry to 'straighten up'. You may make reasonable suggestions, sure. Offer your opinion reasonably, sure. Do so with due respect, and there's no issue. Forget that due respect, and there IS an issue.
Please explain WHO has an unenthusiastic view of the sport, WHO the 'large portion of fishermen' are and maybe take a look at what you said and how you said it. Blanket statements like that one don't sit well because they are totally unsubstantiated and intended to add strength to personal opinion; back your comments up. You have a tendency to state 'facts' that aren't.
'If the overall stance in the sport is “I pay so I will play how I want, it is none of your business because you don’t tournament fish”… then stop approaching the public for support and bring the sport back to its roots as a friendly competition among buddies.'
That is not and never has been the 'overall stance' of walleye tournament fishing. It is another statement that is intended by the author to be presented as fact, and it isn't. Stop approaching the public for support? What does that mean?
'What is it…what is the definition of a “team” and under what parameters do they function under? There is an image problem with “teams” and no one, and I mean no one has any right to complain about that image when the industry created it by not clearly defining it for the fishermen, and more importantly the public. '
Look, please, at who is complaining...and who isn't.
Again, without all the falderal, please explain how the Pros should be 'regulated' by the Circuits, what benefit those regulations will offer, and why.
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| Bingo. But it happens when i own 2 large companies and maybe its funded through my companies, are you still going to tell me what i can do or what i can't do. i don't think so!!! alot of use touring pros own large companies and are self funded; did you know that? and alot of us give back to fishing industries you don't hear about that! and believe or not, team fishing started on the very first tournament that started in 1979; the Manion walleye series. and it was started by our sponsors, they pick out guys to be on their teams, through out the years teams got larger, fishing sponsors want to see there company up front, their names heard and seen at every tourney just like nascar , golf, etc...that's the nice thing about being American. you might see me as a stuck up pro, but you really don't any thing about me, and people should do a little research about things before commenting, i do ,, so if you think teams are unethical tell or sponsors... they invented it, | |
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| RNT - 6/5/2010 11:09 PM
Yes unregulated. The Co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing immediately after the rules meeting but the Pro is not.
RNT, it's quite obvious you have never fished a Pro/AM event. To say the co-angler is forbidden on any information sharing after the rules meeting is simply not true. The co-angler is forbidden from sharing information learned from his day one and day two pro, with his day two and day three pros. I can share any information I want with any of the 3 pro's, as long as it is not information during the previous day's compertition.
It used to be, until a couple years ago, that Pro's could share information on the water, during tournay hours. Directly. That practice, in the FLW, ended about 3 years ago. Because I haven't fished an AIM event, yet, I don't know all the rules there, but I suspect they are the same. Does that stop the teams from communicating on the water? Hardly. There's all sorts of non-verbal communication that goes on.
And you must always remember to put the qaulifier, IMO, when you make statements that are in fact, just your opinion. And the term "shadow team" makes it sound sinister, and implies less than honorable. Far from the truth.
You have organized how many Pro tournamments? How many have you fished in? How many as a Pro? How many as a co/Amateur? Your answer to these questions will give a bit of insight to your statements above.
Where things are lax is in the enforcement, and consequences of some rules, for some anglers. Why don't you ask Mike Gofron or Mark Martin and a couple others, why they quit fishing FLW events? Their loss in that Tour was a pretty big one, IMO.
I like what Thumper said. Teams make individuals better. That is all there is to it. | |
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| the only way for you to know what we are talkig about is to experience it fish as a non boater in aim. i say non boater instead of pro, that is there are alot of good fisher people out there, but it comes down to money, they could be as good as any top pro on the circuit now if they had a chance, do you know that i sponsor people fishing , probaly not but i you want to see what were talking about? i will pay your way so you can experice it, or come and hang with me in green bay, i think it will open your eyes, thanks jim | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | RNT: I always enjoy reading your insights. You usually give a perspective that is always unique and often entertaining. However, I must admit that I am offended with your continual use of the term unethical. The term “unethical” means that you are not conforming to agreed upon standards of moral conduct, especially within a particular profession. Ethics are the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group or culture. Ethics deal with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions. You are painting an extremely broad brush here and it sounds like you are declaring most of us involved in tournament fishing as unethical. This is unnecessary and tragic. As a result your message is going unheard and ridiculed. That’s sad. You may have ideas that warrant discussion but your delivery is causing most to ignore or disregard the message. To call those who “team up” as unethical, you will need to share your facts on what standards they are breaking. What rules of conduct are they not adhering to? Tell us the rules they are violating. By your own admission, you say that the tournament directors know that “teaming up” is occurring yet they do nothing. How can this be unethical if it is a common practice that is accepted by the very people who run the tournament circuits? I write this with no intention of malice. I and many others have no problem with constructive criticism. But change does not happen with name calling. | |
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| RNT - 6/6/2010 10:13 PM
The sport is based on individuals competing against individuals, not a group of individuals ganging up on single individuals.
Ganging up? Please.
and on stage no one knows if the win is due to team information.
Again, not only haven't you fished in one of these tourneys, it appears you've never been to a final day weigh in. Winners, and high placers regularly thank their teammates.
The teams are not regulated and have no guidelines they have to follow…where are the ethics in this?
You use the term ethical too loosely. If somebody is breaking establishedrules or standards, they are acting unethically. If somebody does something you don't agree with, that's your opinion, and not unethical.
Dennis is right on, here. Said it better than I did.
take turns using the information at different tournaments allowing each to have a greater chance at winning a tournament. #2 gets all the information at Red Wing, #4 gets all the information on Bago and #7 gets all the information for Saginaw.
Sorry, you have no clue what you are talking about. Jerry, have you ever taken a dive so Dan could finish higher than you?
Meanwhile #22 is solo at every event and just because he does not have the top secret groupie decoder ring and hand shake he is put at a severe disadvantage. Meanwhile the directors sit by and say “so what?”
And I say so what? #22 is solo for several reasons. He may choose it. He may not be a nice guy, and can't get along with anybody, and isn't accepted into a team. He may be a rotten angler, and can't work his way into a team. He may not be trustworthy, and cannot get into a team. At a disadvantage? Possily, but mostly of his own doing.
#2, 4 and 7 are allowed to cover 3 times the ground for the gain of one player while others can’t…and it’s allowed. No ethic problems there? You have no idea that is not going on because you refuse to reign in the activity and regulate it.
It's for gain of all the anglers in the team. Not just one member. Remember the old adage. There is no "I" in team.
Pro2 gets a cash sponsorship from Billy’s Big Old Boats for $5,000 and Billy expects his paid pro to do well and bring his boat company into the lime light but pro2 is in a “team” and he gives information to Pro5 resulting in Pro5 catching a walleye giving Pro5 a first place win…Mr. Billy is supposed to be happy with that?
I suspect that Mr. Billy is well aware that Pro2 is on a team, and that team is successful, and that is what got Pro#2 noticed, and his Big Old Boat sponsorship, in the first place.
Edited by Shep 6/7/2010 9:04 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I can see there are 2 very opposite sides to this debate. Both feel that they are right as well. I think they are both right.
As a fan, I will side with the "rather not see teaming up." The whole pro-am format is comprimised by the teaming up. I also do not believe some have the ethics to know when and where you share information. There will always be someone who wants to "Push" The envelope.
I do however feel that there could be a series that would not only allow it, but encourage team formation. A whole new twist. I think we could see some very large sponsors if done correctly. Anyone ever watch peddle bike racing? The 6 hour long distance stuff?
On the other hand, I would like to see a series that strictly forbids it. Its all on ones integrity as to whether he talked or not, but.... For the purist, I cetainly think it could be done.
Hey pro-eye, take it easy man, with out fans the sport dies. answers like you gave will help nothing.
Shep, you have had the privilige to know some good teams. Most do not work like theres.
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| There goes half an hour i won't get back. | |
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| I think Hell just froze over because I agree with Stacker for a change. Nice post Denny!
Circuits need to police themselves much better to not only improve their own image but also positively reflect their sponsors. You have Pro's now who hardly even pre-fish and let their staff and team fish for them or they spend a few days with local guides which is in violation of all major circuits that I am aware of. Heck even guys in the MWS are hiring guides for multiple days.
Has anyone seen team meetings before your flight where waypoints are exchanged and baits are given to each other, I have!
How about the boaters who complained to the MWC official yesterday about boaters who were giving information over the radio and the official just gave them a blank stare.
Let's declare openly who is on what team so the sponsors and crowd knows. You would not have any confusion about who was working with whom. We as fisherman need to have a higher level of integrity not only as stewards of a resource but as professionals as well. The end justifies the means does not cut it.
People following this thread closely expect much more of us and we should not try to belittle them.
Just another lowly guest
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| Point conceded on using the term ethical too loosely. But most are looking at the practice through the eyes of a tournament fisherman and not through an uninformed public. You want the public to support a sport but just go back and read the comments and show where anyone clearly explained team functions before my last comment. The explanation was very broad and the timeframes when they cooperate are to, people form broad opinions from a broad definitions. Is it the public's responsibility to educate themselves or the industry's responsibility to educate the public? The opinions are going to form no matter what and I would think it would be more desirable to cut wrong opinions off at the pass than let them fester and grow which is what is happening with teams.
I have been to many events, I used to work for a lure manufacture. I threw out a view point that, like it or not, is out there and the main explanation on teams seems to be go to an event and find out. No matter how the opposing view point would have been written the reaction would be the same. Instead of being ahead of the curve it is behind as far as information. The fan base and public is not as well informed as the ones playing the game and they probably will never be.
Much of what I write is to shed light on opposing views because the industry does not want to confront it or acknowledge it half the time and they have to be brought out. I do it because whatever damage gets thrown back does not affect me, others it would harm. Think what you will about my technique but it gets the viewpoint out there and by no means is that perception limited to just the walleye world. Yes I know many here fish many events and the knowledge and viewpoint are pretty solid on how things work within the tournament world...on the same note I work with 42 publication editors and am quite aware of the public perception and mood.
The concept of teams in the sport as it is set up does not seem right. If teams are what people want, there are better ways to go about it...make it a team sport all the way around...that was the main point Be offended if you must but it was not directed or written for that purpose. With some of the things that have been written here in the past there are many that needed to have thick skins. The concern on that needs to go both ways.
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I don't care what tyou guys say, I'm teaming up with my boys. They know how to catch fish. Just thought I'd enlighten this post a little with something that really matters. Our future!
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| Thx Bob for the breath of fresh air, and thank Mother Nature for the boys getting thier looks from thier moms genes. J/K Also LMAO @ proeye calling out RNT in the same breath as calling himself a Touring Pro, fishing 1 event outside of the 50 mile radius of the house a year must be the only qualification for the title. | |
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Location: Badgerland | AMEN STACKER... every word... | |
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| We don't give a rat's rear end if you are on a team or not. We came to see how our brother/dad/cousin/uncle/friend did in the tournament and to see the big fish.
Sincerely-
Every person who has ever attended a walleye tournament weigh-in.
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| stacker - 6/7/2010 12:01 PM
Shep, you have had the privilige to know some good teams. Most do not work like theres.
OK, then how do most teams work? All for one, and take turns being that was, as RNT described all teams?
Yes, I know some good teams. In fact, I know probably the best team out there. They don't work anything like RNT describes. In any way. These guys are the smartest, and the hardest working guys out there. The individuals make the team better as a whole.They get along, they trust each other implicitly, they have fun. But most of all, they are all talented anglers, they work eaqually hard, and they don't hold anything back....on information, or on tournament day. They all go for the win. That's why you'll see one of them win one tourney, another or two make the cut.
And I'm not so sure the "public" or the "fans" actually know that teams exist, or even care for that matter.
As for complaing this weekend about some locations given out over the radio? if you are a competitor, there is a vehicle in place for protesting this. Poney up the fee, and file the protest. You might get more than a blank stare. You might get an investigation, and justice.
Horshak. Nice eye's. Who took them out? hehehe
Edited by Shep 6/7/2010 3:23 PM
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| Stacker, you an I have seen this comming a long ways off. The fact that "teams" should be formed is only one method to this madness. (teammates expect compensation, just saying you helped put the winner on the spot doesn't stroke the ego enough any more) AIM has the format down very well and it IS working. Making it formally a team event with Team rules as RNT wants is not necessary at that level but may be as they grow. Although, if that concept were adopted at a lower level I too believe it would need guidelines and regulation. Proeye has the funds to play his RIch Mans sport so why doesn't he and others like him build the model for the less fortunate. If Teams are here to stay you need a ladder to climb that follows that model! IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. What say you Denny......should we do it?
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| "Much of what I write is to shed light on opposing views because the industry does not want to confront it or acknowledge it half the time and they have to be brought out. I do it because whatever damage gets thrown back does not affect me, others it would harm. Think what you will about my technique but it gets the viewpoint out there and by no means is that perception limited to just the walleye world. Yes I know many here fish many events and the knowledge and viewpoint are pretty solid on how things work within the tournament world...on the same note I work with 42 publication editors and am quite aware of the public perception and mood. " -RNT
I disagree, where are your facts to back up this statement?
From what I can gather there is a large part of the fishing industry that is in business to do one thing and that is to sell merchandise. In fact your 42 publications probably wouldn't be in business if it weren't for the AD space they are selling. Who's ads? The same ones trying to sell merchandise. If the team model is so incorrect by industry standards, then why is Gary Parson's and Keith Kavajecz's name all over so much merchandise for sale at Bass Pro Shops? Who are perhaps two of the best known fishermen in the walleye world.
Sorry, RNT, but your argument is beginning to sound like the Teacher in the Charlie Brown episodes.
Getting back to the topic at hand Teams in walleye fishing good? bad? I don't know, it's been a part of the game for so long does it matter? Some like to go alone, others like to work together. There is always a trust factor when you team up with others, the more mouths the more chance for info to be spilled. I've fished lone wolf and I've fished with teams in the past. The only regrets as a fisherman, is as a team it will keep people distancing themselves away from each other when really they could be fishing buddies. I've made some great friends fishing over the years, but I honestly think I could of made a few more if there weren't teams. | |
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| the ladder was there but nobdy wanted to use it! the flw leauge , nawa , there was a couple other tournament out their, people did'nt support them, now you cry about it, goe fish the mws circuit , it's cheap, good payout, many god sticks ouy there, that series should have minium of 100 in every tourney but it don't, why don't you support it i do. | |
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| Dear mr Eye IN for your information i fished every curcuit since 1979 last year i fished 15 teen different tournaments the manion mwc mws pwt flw aim nawa, research you data.Teams are here and they won't go away, and how do you now guys were talking on the radio on winnabago? if you are postive and you now for sure turn them in, other wise stop spreading gosip? ( i mean isn't that part of ethic's?) ALL HEAR SAY | |
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| AGAIN EVRYONE MISSED WHAT I SAID EAEILIER, when tounament first started the manufactures pick out how there teams were, through out the years some split different ways, other teams or ect. even with all the information you get you still have catch the fish. | |
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| this what i mean, you know what circuits there have been, Maion was first mwc was second pwt was 3 flw was 4 these have all touneys since 1979 mariner championship eect etc.. your funny i think these forums should your name only | |
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| Jayman - 6/7/2010 3:14 PM
I disagree, where are your facts to back up this statement?
From what I can gather there is a large part of the fishing industry that is in business to do one thing and that is to sell merchandise. In fact your 42 publications probably wouldn't be in business if it weren't for the AD space they are selling. Who's ads? The same ones trying to sell merchandise. If the team model is so incorrect by industry standards, then why is Gary Parson's and Keith Kavajecz's name all over so much merchandise for sale at Bass Pro Shops? Who are perhaps two of the best known fishermen in the walleye world.
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If you don't want to look at a tiny fan base and factor that into any equation , and include the magical shrinking fishing magazines then fine, sit back and enjoy what you have. Discount the weekly interactions I have with the publications, that's fine too because my product keeps growing.
You are only concerned about the present base or what you choose to be the fan base not the pool of people that could be a fan base.
How is it fine to have a team effort in a sport built around individualism when every individual does not have a team? It is not that all others chose to fish alone because there are plenty that can't find a team that allows another in.
Explain that coherently and there will at least be a solid footing to base it on.
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| ummm how many tournament have you fished 1979? and how many freinds have you worked with before a tournament? | |
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| "Mr. Parsons and Mr. Kavajecz" that would be two people in and individual sport. Is that coherent enough?
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| remember were talking about teams should there be or not? should all team members have the same boat or little flags on so everyone knows how they are what,, and as far as gary and keith the are great people they put alot work in the fishing industire, thier in the hall of fame ,,exactly what the sport needs, | |
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| prefishing nowdays, consisit of looking at our great electronic maps we have, google earth, local fishing sites, talking to locals, sportsshop, their alot of local' s that love to go and prefish with you, cyperfishing things have changed since 1979, thats when you had cover all the water to find fish. | |
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| i don't rember them in tuffys but i do rember the skeeters with 135 on them they were fast,, only gear is foward, and i have alot of stock in coke LOL | |
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| Jig-A-Whopper, Gary Snyder....oh the stories.
Wish everyone luck. | |
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| My Pyle:
Your bio says that you have been a fishing pro since 1979, a tournament director for 6 years, and you love to teach people to fish,
31 years is a very long time in this industry. You must do a great deal more for your sponsors than just fish to survive that long. Do you write articles too?
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| hey gomer.. yes i do articles, alot of seminars, work with kids, permote fishing, tournaments are fun , ive been doing it to long, i don't care about stats, you d get to meet alot of nice people. alot of my sponsors i have been with for years, im very loyal to them, but most of my sponsor would rather me fish alot of local tournaments talk to people show them the products, they really don't care if i fish the others, it doesn't help them. these forum are all fun and games, entertanment if you know what i mean. | |
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| what ever happen to kaz is he still alive? great tounament director great guy i still can't picture him as state trooper,,hey those tuffy boats look the same as back then but only with bigger gunales lol just smile steve | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Kaz is retired and living in Georgia, I believe. He was a Franklin, WI police officer, if I remember correctly, before taking on the MWC job and retiring from the force.
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| wasn't jig a whooper the hot lure then i still have a bunch, my wife cut the hook of and used them for ear rings, so what about teams? | |
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| hey rnt i was just talking to a fisher person on a different chat, then i remebered somthing? i have to be carfull what i say because i might be starting a team? now what, i will put on flag on my boat if i have a team so everyone knows | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | RNT - 6/7/2010 6:40 PM
What is ironic is I was talking about funny stories and again it gets taken the wrong way...LOL got to love it.
It's amazing that the likes of RNT is so frowned on here , when in fact, ALL successful major league sports marketing depts. thrive on the type of fan RNT is. If only we had several 100K of the same passionate type fan he is. Wake up and invite more of the RNT's of the world! Your ad rates/revenue might just go up......
For the record....didn't the Manion Series start in '84, not '79? Was the first one in early June of '84 on Lake Mille Lacs, out of Terry's Boat Harbor on the west side?
Edited by Steve Fellegy 6/7/2010 7:46 PM
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| yes your right,, it,s been a long time ago but they were fun times the years might be a little , but is was before planner boards were invented rnt is great i want him as my fan | |
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Location: Rhinelander | I was hoping to draw out ideas and opinions by posing the question, and several folks have offered thoughtful and insightful comments, a few were RNT's. Stacker, interesting...I heard similar thoughts from an industry leader recently.
By the way, I don't have an personal preference one way or the other. Teams or no teams, I'll point a camera and get the story if I can.
Back to the original question now, I hope. | |
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| PROEYE. there never was a ladder to what Stacker and I have been talking about. the ladder you are refering to had the first three steps broken and no one liked where it went as RNT has eluded to and everyone has plugged their ears to over the years, we aren't cryin about it only saying that the current "team" format is broke and needs fixing!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| Some of you are confusing me. Are you suggesting that Parsons and Kavajecz work as individuals during a tournament? Nothing could be further from the truth. They have one of the best teams out there.
Tyee,
You say that AIM gets it and has the right model. Again, are you suggesting that teams do not exist in AIM tournaments. This is not true. | |
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| Congratulations on the 2954 hits Walleyefirst! | |
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| Team wanna be - 6/8/2010 8:22 AM
Some of you are confusing me. Are you suggesting that Parsons and Kavajecz work as individuals during a tournament? Nothing could be further from the truth. They have one of the best teams out there.
Tyee,
You say that AIM gets it and has the right model. Again, are you suggesting that teams do not exist in AIM tournaments. This is not true.
Teams don't even have a chance if if the sport doesn't survive. Worry about keeping the ship afloat before paying attention to the cargo. | |
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| tyee i know what you mean. when i direceted the fox river classic my goal was to keep the entries low and get maxium payout, with out taking more money out of the fisherman pocket, we would have a average of 100 to 200 boats, payout was good entries were $100 it was afforadble now since randy and karl took over many years ago 100 teams it fills up in 3 days, there is still alot of intrest in lower priced tournaments, a lot of good sticks fish it, and back then guys fished as teams during prefishing, they still do it. | |
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| Since I'm a team player, we always try to take away the "non-team angler's" thunder everytime on the water and at the weigh scale! The non-team angler's don't even have a chance. | |
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| Aim has the model correct in only that there is a co angler that is not on the team and is there to keep the boater honest. All team members are competing together like in nascar where everyon e tests tracks and equipment for the rest of the team. The coangler teammate events have evolved in to a sport where everyone questions the real capabilities of an individual fisherman being able to win on his own merrit. Broken......... | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | tyee - 6/8/2010 11:04 AM Aim has the model correct in only that there is a co angler that is not on the team and is there to keep the boater honest. All team members are competing together like in nascar where everyon e tests tracks and equipment for the rest of the team. The coangler teammate events have evolved in to a sport where everyone questions the real capabilities of an individual fisherman being able to win on his own merrit. Broken......... Tyee, How is this any different than FLW events? Now I am confused too.
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| Dennis, FLW has "other" issues not related to "team". I don't think they are failing because of that and I'm sure we all have our own opinions on that one.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| I would like to add something after reading all of these great posts. stopping for a min and thinking. DO YOU GUYS REALIZE what a great bunch of minds and perspectives have been offered on this thread? What a great question to post. I think RNT's Ethics argument makes a great point! yet again human nature and the game will not permit it to be done any other way. you CANT FIX IT!. i know of teams who are out of the running to win a tournament yet in position to cash a nice check who are willing to give up there noumber 1 spot to a team member in the top ten who has a chance to win. this kind of thing is what hacks folks off. yet the guy most hacked off is a local pro that gets all bent out of shap yet he also has no problem with getting info from 3 guys at work, his buddy who runs the bait shop, 2 brothers that fished the day before and his pal who won the bar turnament the saturday before. everyone wants it to be a fair fight... unfortunatly like a real fight the guys who waits to get hit first in most cases gets his azz kicked. Not fair! No.. one thing to keep in your mind is this.. even though and ill bring up Gary and Kieth , and probst , and the second generation or who ever they work with now is this... We only tend to remember the wins. Even though these teams are are strong its not as if they cash big in all the events.. they take a beating just as often. the biggest names take plenty of beatings. a little loner in my opinion has a better chance to win. too much information is as bad as not enough. the anglers i see at the top seem to be doing what they do best( trolling ) rigging, jiggin or whatever on a day when the walleyes aare in the mood for there speacialty. how many times (and any angler can relate) have you and another boat working the same water seemingly doing the same thing have two completely diferent outcomes? one boat smokes the other 10 to 1. team or not! then the next day same two teams and same programs completly opposite results. the frustraition is folks lay out a bunch of cash and when things dont turn out there way the cry!!!!!!! teamed up pro's say its an us agains the locals game. guys on a hot bite call in the team and there goes the neiighborhood... if its not the team its the Tail Pipers... Ban Willow cats its not fair.... I dont have a big enough boat or an HD10! i only got to pre fish for 2 days! Not 5! CRY Cry CRy! a bunch of brilliant minds on here for real! yet the only problem with teams is they naturaly form. no way around it. folks want to be social. They are not on jury duty locked in there hotel and will end up teamed anyway . the thaught of a perfect walleye world with no teams sounds like heaven! but here on earth its not possible. Sharing info durring tournaments with signals or cell phones is illegal!!!!!! if you see it its time to let the directors know. time to turn them in and get these guys off the water or to change there ways. great toppic but it cant be fixed. for the guys who think they cant compete because of it. Your wrong! most of the nice checks i ever cashed we were on our own. weird how that works. But with me anyway thats how it seems to be. just not good at catching other folks fish. | |
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| This is reminding me of the baiting non baiting issue. You will never please everyone. I think most people are looking at this issue two ways, RNT for example as the fan, Proeye as an example as the fisherman. I do not think teams have an advantage, yes they can cover more water then an individual, but you still need to make adjustments possibly every hour on the water to get the bites. The pros are in the boats with thier co-angler then, bite goes sour, they better figure something out, and I have fished a couple of AIM events and there is no sharing during the tournament, at night maybe, but that doesn't help you during the day.
From a spectator standpoint, I watch these tournaments and participate in them to learn new techniques to become a better fisherman. I personnally don't care if it comes from Team Tracker or Joe Blow. These guys are great fisherman, give them a Navionics map and they have a general idea of where they want to go before they even leave home. The guys in AIM and maybe others (I haven't fished in any other events besides AIM) are very ethical, alot more the your average Joe. It has been said time and time again from these guys, someone is on a spot first, it is thier spot, they do not stop and crowd each other. How many people have been fishing whether in a tournament or not, start catching fish and the boats seem to get closer.
Maybe I am off base here but no matter what you will never in any sport have an even playing field. Next we could argue that so and so has a better locator than I do. Where does it end. | |
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| Johny v is right! and if you enter a walleye tournament the entire day is going to be decisions. if you hold tight it may or may not turn out. if you zig when you should have sagged ? well you better have braught the vassoline. everyone also is looking for a little luck along with useing there experiance on the water with what they do best to adapt in the limmited amount of time available. some will hold up the plywood and others will smile and bend over. others cant smile and wont and will look for reasons to blamb others! these folks will not last long fishing tournaments or have a misserable time in the long run. remember 10-20% of the field get to cash a check but only THE TOP 5 % will come home ahead for there experiance. so make sure you get something out of the experiance as odds are that there wont be much more taken home. oh and some good stories and frienships is priceless. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Why is NASCAR not questioned on the "ethics" level? Many of you are fans of that sport, right?
Are the drivers not alone in the car? Like a Pro Angler in the boat? So it's okay for the driver to get live info/advice from the sidelines and even new gear etc. during the race but not right for anglers to work together before the event? Tell me I'm wrong.....please.
If it's okay with the fastest growing fan base in any sport, to have the sport work as teams and NOT have the driver on his or her own before or during the race, than being against the pro angling teams is plain foolish-to say the least. I'd rather mirror NASCAR! Fights and all!! | |
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| In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | RNT - 6/8/2010 2:43 PM
In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
Sounds like a plan to me! lol Let's mirror NASCAR. A salary? I could live with that! Someone else do the pre-fishing? Sweet! But of course, no one in their right mind, that I know of, would ever suggest we model competitive fishing around the likes of NASCAR's business model. (or is that the reason I've been told I'm nuts for the past 26 years?--one of the reasons I should add lol)
Edited by Steve Fellegy 6/8/2010 2:57 PM
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| johnny v and rnt you guys are great | |
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| RNT - 6/8/2010 2:43 PM
In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
RNT, I'm gonna stop after this one. First, your statements prove you know nothing about walleye tournaments. Your statement above proves you know nothing about NASCAR, too. Your analogy is way off base.
A team owner, Hendrick has 4 teams. Gordon, Johnson, Jr. and Martin. Gordon, Johnson, Jr., and Martin are teammates. These 4 teammates also have employees working for them, individually, and as a whole. These teams all work together, and share information. One team will test at one track, another at a different track. Sometimes they all test at the same track. Whatever, they all share whatever information they have. Pre-race testing? Information gets shared between all teams. Race practice? All information gets shared. During the race? Information gets shared. And you can bet that after the race, information gets shared.
The only difference between NASCAR and the walleye tourney world, is no one person owns a team, and the team is usually only made up of actual competitors. Some teams have "members" that will help prefish and share info. They are usually not part of the prize money sharing, however. They may help share traveling expenses.
I'm not sure what Tyee means about a AIM co-angler not being part of the team keeps the pro's honest? And that is different from the PWT and the FLW how? Just an FYI, a co-angler could be a "member" of a team.
All this talk about all these individual non-affiliated anglers leaves me with one comment. Get together and form a team. There seems to be plenty of you out there to form several teams. | |
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| hey shep you just stuck your foot in your mouth,, rnt does know about tournament, if you new who he is i do he was their from the beginning he knows excactly whats going as you guys would say he one of the walleye inventors lol hey rnt | |
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| Do I know...yes. Have I cared enough over the last 8 years to keep up on everything with tournaments...no. Unless you are a current everyday presence within whatever tiny portion of the industry they are in, they do not care. | |
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| You seem to claim you know marketing, RNT. I'm still waiting to hear your viable solution to the "broken" model. All I've heard is it's broke and it's not your way, but I haven't heard "your way".
Greed and a poor economy is what's hurting the sport currently. | |
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| RNT - 6/8/2010 3:50 PM
My point was the teams are owned. Hendrick owns all four teams and funds all four teams. The goal is to win for Hendrick...that is what they get paid for. Your statements prove you know nothing about marketing a product to the public. Have you looked at the condition your sport is in lately?
I never claimed to be a marketing type. Unlike you, I don't make unsubstantiated claims, and spew them as fact.
And so what if the teams are owned by one guy, or if a couple of individuals get together to share info, expenses, winnings, etc. Oh, wait, the do that in nascar, too! Look at RPM and Rousch.
My point is you don't have a clue when it comes to the Pro Walleye tours, and the why's and how's of teams.
And I agree with Jayman. Or as your fav Slick Willy would say. "It's the economy, stupid!" Teams, sanctioned or not, have nothing to do with the state of Walleye tournaments as they exist today.
I've said for years, that sponsorship from non-endemic sources are the key to growing this sport. The angling industry just doesn't have the money to throw the big dollars to a hundred or more top level pros. We need money from outside the industry, and teams are not what's holding that back. Until AIM, the tours were there to promote the tour, and not the anglers. AIM is by the Anglers, for the Anglers. They get it, but it's going to take a few years, and a better economy, to get really rolling.
OK, now I'm done.
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| there is know way to fix it, listen to the people on this form(oh by the the way i think we broke a record on this thread) walleye fishermen and people have big ego's, im' not a walleye fishing inventor, im, not the top fisherman, im not syco therapist, (BUT I DID STAY AT A HOLIDAY IN ONCE) it's all about ego and thats that!!! | |
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| shep check your pm and call now i'm still in the office
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| Jayman…Why on earth would I sit down and waste my time to pencil out a viable solution for a part of the industry I am no longer financially vested in? I have pointed out the areas where activity is hurting the sport through the years but your ears are rusted. The economy is only part of the problem and if you are banking on the turning of the financial markets to boost the sport back to the glory years you’re in for a shock. The sport is stuck in reverse and I don’t have the energy to help push it into neutral to only have it put back into reverse. I have and will continue to help individuals and recreational fishing but you will have to show me where the incentive is to help the sport of tournament fishing.
Shep…I know the why's and how's of teams but I never have agreed with them, my opinion and many disagree. Fishing is not a sport that needs teams, especially the way they have been formed. NASCAR also has fans…many, many, many, many fans…something walleye fishing does not have. Their fans can also voice their disgust with drivers and the sport without the driver attempting to discredit the fans.
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| Pretty silly everyone! This sounds like one of our favorite Television commercials from the past. Less filling!, taste great!, less filling!, taste great! Then Bob Uecker crashes the scene towards the end and chimes in!
Larry | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Wow, you leave for a few days and the playground gets pooped in...hahahahahaha.
Here is one I would like to present to all who have fished with me, against me, beat me, and those that want to beat me....
So far every person has been a independant business within a business. How do you think, what Tyee and I were speaking of, would change the face of the walleye world. It goes like this.
way long ago, companies put together teams for there product but that had little to do with actuall team work on the water.. Then came along the spider, flw, who took the industry in a direction. where you say? they came up with incentives, very large incentives for people running certain boats and motors. Then the independant businessmen decided to corralll there efforts in the events. there were large sums of cash at stake for not only wins but for placing. I am sure they were sharing money, one for all, all for one. making money. Great marketing, perhaps the best marketing idea in boating history.
flash forward today. You want more endemics, start a circuit that hired there players. They will no longer be independant, but can be fired just the same. A circuit that pays for winners and such, but also has the teams playing for a cup. a bonus from sponsors. a way to get the faces associated with names on who is pitching playing tackle or who is goalie on team plavadore. they are starting to associate team national guard players with each other over in bass fishing.
3 man teams. they are on the salary of said sponsor, say 50k a year. they work shows and promote the circuit and the product. the players are also the buyer of there boats and motors and may cut any deal they can on both, but the chest plate on the shirt is there main sponsor. the 50 k guy. They may also do "side work" at any other circuits they wish, but the side work means they are promoting the 50K guy all the time. They cannot do side work unless they can promote him. They share everything on the bite and they get fired if they talk to others.
This takes the work factor and the vacation factor out of it. the health insurance is covered or offered by the 50K guy. all boats fully wrapped. starting conttracts at 3 years so you get a shot at the deal and not quitting a job for a 6 month job then fired.
hmmmmm........
Edited by stacker 6/9/2010 10:25 AM
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| RNT, Why on earth would you sit on the internet and waste your time telling everyone they are wrong and the current model is broke?
I hear plenty of negativity, but I'm still waiting to hear your viable answer.
I'll agree things can be improved in the walleye world, but I don't believe teams are the reason why walleye fishing as a sport is "hurting". | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 10:21 AM
Wow, you leave for a few days and the playground gets pooped in...hahahahahaha.
Here is one I would like to present to all who have fished with me, against me, beat me, and those that want to beat me....
So far every person has been a independant business within a business. How do you think, what Tyee and I were speaking of, would change the face of the walleye world. It goes like this.
way long ago, companies put together teams for there product but that had little to do with actuall team work on the water.. Then came along the spider, flw, who took the industry in a direction. where you say? they came up with incentives, very large incentives for people running certain boats and motors. Then the independant businessmen decided to corralll there efforts in the events. there were large sums of cash at stake for not only wins but for placing. I am sure they were sharing money, one for all, all for one. making money. Great marketing, perhaps the best marketing idea in boating history.
flash forward today. You want more endemics, start a circuit that hired there players. They will no longer be independant, but can be fired just the same. A circuit that pays for winners and such, but also has the teams playing for a cup. a bonus from sponsors. a way to get the faces associated with names on who is pitching playing tackle or who is goalie on team plavadore. they are starting to associate team national guard players with each other over in bass fishing.
3 man teams. they are on the salary of said sponsor, say 50k a year. they work shows and promote the circuit and the product. the players are also the buyer of there boats and motors and may cut any deal they can on both, but the chest plate on the shirt is there main sponsor. the 50 k guy. They may also do "side work" at any other circuits they wish, but the side work means they are promoting the 50K guy all the time. They cannot do side work unless they can promote him. They share everything on the bite and they get fired if they talk to others.
This takes the work factor and the vacation factor out of it. the health insurance is covered or offered by the 50K guy. all boats fully wrapped. starting conttracts at 3 years so you get a shot at the deal and not quitting a job for a 6 month job then fired.
hmmmmm........
We put that plan out there to the industry years ago......and got laughed at. Non-endemic teams might work but the endemics will not pay anyone--because they don't have to. Everyone does this for nothing already!
Jayman....why would you expect the likes of RNT to lay a plan out there, without compensation for the plan, in place upfront? | |
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| It is not a simple little "fix" where you can blurb something on line and "TAH DAH!" everything is okay. It takes a complete business plan to restructure the sport to reach viability and framing one takes time...lots of time and no one will ever do it without compensation, including me. If you want the benefit from it then come up with one yourself and present it to the people with the funds to get it done.
Stacker has the right idea on how it should be done and Fellegy has proposed the same in the past. No one grabs onto it and having a third person present a different version of the same concept will not push this pig out of the mud.
The sport is in a very unique situation...everyone wants things to change without changing anything. The whole current model has to be scrapped and start back at square one, but this time frame it around a fan base. I think the area to concentrate now is on the individual pro-fishermen, helping them to gain exposure so whatever system rises out of this mess they can be right there to bring the sport back to a level of sanity and influence.
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| Stacker, not sure you are on the right track. Here is my opinion, you start giving pro fisherman salaries to be on a team, the compitition becomes less important, they are still getting paid whether they cash a check in a tournament or not. Wether you play in the big leagues or fish a few $100 tournaments, people help each other out, I've even heard it at small tournaments, "I would rather have my buddy joe blow win then some out of towner" so they talk. As I have said before, you can prefish all you want as a team, It is only you making the decisions come tournament day.
Wrestling is an individual sport, it is only you and your opponent out there, but I will tell you, if it weren't for my teamates i wouldn't be worth a lick.
To me, that is the same principle. | |
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| Johny V
If that would be the outcome then it would mean that the fishermen of today are only in it for the money and there is no passion for the sport...something that is not the case. These fishermen love the sport and the effort put in if they were salaried would be just as intense at today. | |
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| Well now that the idea is out there.......It really is the only way to build a sport if there are going to be teams. JonnyV, It isn't a matter of if I'm getting paid to cash a check or not, Its a profession/industry/career path I choose to be a part of. If I chose this as a career path I need to be the kind of person that can market my companies products for them...I need to be the face of said company, I need to be valuable enough to do more than just win a tourney. And said company doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with fishing. Just because I have deep pockets doesn't mean I am the best person to represent a company either (unless of course it's my own). The cream of the crop will rise to the top fast and the rest will fade away.
This would be considered an owners circuit and the investment in the team belongs to the team, they are their own company they have all the necessary employes required. A president, marketing, accountant, board of directors and so on. This team of 3, as Stacker put it competes against each other and shares with each other throughout the circut, rules are designed to prevent any cheating which would be very easy to do. The hard part is finding those 50 companies that will buy into the business plan. But I'll tell you what...... Marketing budgets are exploding right now and Billions are being spent on silly campaigns! With the right promotion/media company this plan should be able to be sold very easily
Good Luck
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| I do not agree with this at all. If I want to put my money up to compete at a pro level, I will, you do this and most folks do not have a chance to compete at this level because it is already staged. I don't care how you look at it, fishing is still an individual sport during tournament day. What you guys are asking in my opinion is rediculous. You don't think Berkley, Ranger, Lund, Rapala, etc don't already spend a lot of money for promotions and help sponsor events, and then ask them to fork over another $150,000 for three guys to promote their products on top of that, and who is going to pay for the rest of the employees you are proposing? I do not have all the answers, but I think we are missing the question that was asked in the first place, do you agree with teams or not in pro fishing, first you say no, now you are coming up with ways to have teams.
I love fishing walleyes and walleye tournaments, you turn this into a big corporate thing and I think you will lose interest in a hurry. I for one would not follow this type of format. | |
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| A franchised sport where the sport itself is out of the hands of the industry. This model also provides the best chance at the growth of the sport, team ownership is the correct way to move in the right direction here. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Fellegy, I am sure many ideas over time have been brought up, but the fork did not stick because it was not time. The flw helped create these teams of today. Nothing against them, but thats what has happened. would it be accepted today? well, who knows. Also, this is a discussion board. I get confused on why you back RNT's idea's, or lack there of. he only looks for compensation every step of the way so I for one wish he would just quit posting. WHY you ask? because he just tells us its broke and that the ideas coming up will not work, and refuses to share is vast amount of knowledge and his close influence of major friends that know so much about todays game. RNT Thats the truth, I dont think there is 1 person out there that care to read your thoughts and watch you kick this industry anylonger with out at least discussing possible avenues.
Johnnyv, everyone will have a opnion how things will work. Think about this......Do you think that the junior circuits would simply FLY OFF THE HANDLE with players spending lots of cash to GET THE JOB OF A LIFE TIME? I think so. I think a 20 group could hash out such a workable plan in a week. This would not be the fisherman doing it, it would be a serious business model that would work. The greed factor would have to be removed and accounted for at every step. Greed helped crush this. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION.
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| your so right denny and the business model could be carried right down to the weekend warrior with less payouts. the thought that berkley lund ranger etc. would be forking out tons of cash to support this is silly! They aren't rich enough.....think bigger JonnyV....Pepsi Coke Microsoft....Heck if Irwin can sell it to ONE company (Walmart) why can't we sell it to the world on his example that just needs refining! He too was out to line (HIS) pockets why can't we line multiple pockets instead. Again Jonny you said fishing is an individual sport come tourney day? Well it is or it isn't you can't have it both ways and expect it to grow OR CAN YOU?
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 6/9/2010 4:19 PM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 3:36 PM
Fellegy, I am sure many ideas over time have been brought up, but the fork did not stick because it was not time. The flw helped create these teams of today. Nothing against them, but thats what has happened. would it be accepted today? well, who knows. Also, this is a discussion board. I get confused on why you back RNT's idea's, or lack there of. he only looks for compensation every step of the way so I for one wish he would just quit posting. WHY you ask? because he just tells us its broke and that the ideas coming up will not work, and refuses to share is vast amount of knowledge and his close influence of major friends that know so much about todays game. RNT Thats the truth, I dont think there is 1 person out there that care to read your thoughts and watch you kick this industry anylonger with out at least discussing possible avenues.
Johnnyv, everyone will have a opnion how things will work. Think about this......Do you think that the junior circuits would simply FLY OFF THE HANDLE with players spending lots of cash to GET THE JOB OF A LIFE TIME? I think so. I think a 20 group could hash out such a workable plan in a week. This would not be the fisherman doing it, it would be a serious business model that would work. The greed factor would have to be removed and accounted for at every step. Greed helped crush this. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION.
1. where have I backed RNT's "ideas"? I like the tema concept--he doesn't, right? I do back his passion as a fan and his passion to help the growth of the sport. In the real world, all the RNT's major league sports can get, they take and value them as they create numbers that create ad $$.
2. FLW didn't create anything. Especially "team fishing". That's almost funny. Team fishing started to flourish in the '94 PWT season. I have the factual details as to why it started in a big way that year. It was being done at much smaller scale but out there, long before that--even back in the early MWC days. All FLW did was break a lot anglers pocket books. Just as the PWT did.
Don't start talking history of anything in this regard or other stuff without the real, whole story.
The bottom line is, if and when fishing related marketing departments get out of marketing professional fishing, at the bass level or walleye or whatever, only then will everyone involved make money at this game. | |
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Location: Berlin | Steve, I thought all the PWT and FLW did was create a venue for us fishermen to participate in. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | history steve is a funny thing, it is remembered differently by different people.
if you believe that teams started in 94 then it is so. However, maybe you should check in to just how the big teams are working these days.
Edited by stacker 6/9/2010 6:23 PM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Rich S - 6/9/2010 5:36 PM
Steve, I thought all the PWT and FLW did was create a venue for us fishermen to participate in.
Or did we, the anglers, create a venue for In-Fishermen to grow to a value of 55 million $$? And MWC /PWT/FLW sponsors to create an industry? That was their plan...and it worked. BUT! Unlike any other game, the owners of the game didn't pay the players. Just themselves. And I blame, myself and countless other anglers for getting sucked into it, based on their original promises. Remember now... I was there, in most cases, behind the scenes. Every step of the way. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 6:16 PM
history steve is a funny thing, it is remembered differently by different people.
if you believe that teams started in 94 then it is so. However, maybe you should check in to just how the big teams are working these days.
I won't debate this. lol I am very well aware of how the team concept works now. I also have a letter from JK in my files that show who started the first major team in walleye fishing at the highest level. The team concept took off in '94 because the first major team(5 guys) in '93 won 75% of the PWT events the year before--and was made public among the anglers at the awards banquet in the fall of '93. Remember, I was there...and still am in many ways behind the scenes, as I type. My last post on this thread now......nothing to debate here. Facts are what they are.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 6/9/2010 6:35 PM
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Location: Berlin | I was not there so my opinion means nothing and I have a lot of respect for you but:
I have heard this many times before and it always bothered me. All I can say is that if I go to Vegas and lose all my money that is my own fault. I like the thought of personal accountability and take responsibility for my own actions. I guess there is a reason infomercials exist... | |
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| What is the big deal? Teams exist and have so for a long time. What are you all afraid of and why won't anyone openly explain how these teams work? I have followed this thread from the being and you talk about the fact you know so much about teams but why won't you openly say what you know. I for one would like to know how teams work. Besides the simple fact they share information. I have no problem with that as a fan, but it seems like there is more to it the makes it so confrontational.
Disclaimer:When I use the word "you" I am not refering to any one single poster and I am not singling out any specific response.
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| Rich, aren't you and Steve saying the same thing just from differnet sides of the crap table! (no pun intended). Steve I beg to differ in only that the FLW DID create the team concept, one big one at that and their competition was the PWT. Irwin lined his pockets with Walmart and got a bunch of his buddies to buy his boats and motors. So you see he created the ultimate "team". Now lets follow his example and build 50 more like them!
Just a fan,....there are many things wrong with Teams that prevent others from joining in the sport. Just talk to people fishing tourneys that end up in the bottom half. They will give you an earfull. Jealousy is evident as is ego but more shocking will be some of the things you hear! many of these things have been posted on message boards in the past and passed off as "hearsay" so we don't need to discuss, some here are being critisized for such comments but there is a big difference in what you will hear from those entered in a $30, $50, $300 team bar tourney than those in the FLW/AIM pro/am events, these pro/am teams are starting to function in a much different way today than they did in 1994.
Good Luck
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| Tyee, it seems to me that you are contradicting your self. Now you are saying that teams make it hard to allow for anyone to join the sport. But lets make corporate teams and you think it will be easy for anyone to get in the sport once the teams are "picked".
I am only basing my opinion on the AIM circuit, because that is all I has been a part of as a co-angler, but I have never heard anyone complain the way prefishing is done or tournaments are run. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way a team has "some" advantage is they can break down a bigger body on water then can a solo fisherman. My feeling is the people who do not like teams, can't get on one, so it is easier to complain then to work harder to compete. If you were all on a team and having some success, you would be "oh teams are great" Maybe I am not thinking big enough, but I feel you put fishing into the corporate hands, that can't be good. Are there anymore pro fisherman who can add to this, thier thought on a corporate run circuit. matbe I just need to understand the concept more, because right now what I see doesn't make sence. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Just a fan - 6/10/2010 8:39 AM What is the big deal? Teams exist and have so for a long time. What are you all afraid of and why won't anyone openly explain how these teams work? I have followed this thread from the being and you talk about the fact you know so much about teams but why won't you openly say what you know. I for one would like to know how teams work. Besides the simple fact they share information. I have no problem with that as a fan, but it seems like there is more to it the makes it so confrontational. Disclaimer:When I use the word "you" I am not refering to any one single poster and I am not singling out any specific response. Just a fan: The problem with trying to explain how teams work is that every team is different. Expectations and outcomes vary from team to team. Some may just share generalities and there is no monetary stakes. Others may have members with assigned tasks for each prefish day; have phone conversations throughout the day; compare notes, gps coordinates and results; and share any winnings equally. Other teams may fall somewhere in between. Another problem is that successful teams will not share what they do. Why should they? If they are successful, they do not want to show others how they are successful. This is a partnership between members. Many will feel that it is none of your business how they operate. | |
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| Sunshine - 6/10/2010 11:27 AM
This is a problem? Why?
I'm sure Rick Hendrick is not sharing his engine building secrets with Earnhardt/Ganassi, or Rousch, or Gibbs. They rent motors out to other teams, but these motors are sealed, and those teams never, ever, get to peek inside. Secrets eventually get out, but it's not openly sharing.
Pretty sure 90-99.999% of the anglers on the stage are exactly forthcoming when asked where and how.
While the way teams have formed and operate has evolved over the years, (What hasn't?), teams certainly existed before the RCL/FLW. | |
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| JonnyV, I'm not trying to sound contradicting, and often express my opinion like I know more than I do which is often percieved wrong. I can tell you this, I have fished tourneys and maybe will again sometime but right now the ones I can afford are full of suspicious activity that I don't care to waste my money on. If I could afford to play in this rich mans sport (AIM) model which IMO is the only game worth playing.....I would. Quite frankly IMHO all the other $30, $50, $300 entry events need to adopt their rules and get on board. Co anglers are not "team" members and quite frankly if they continue to evolve their team concept as it grows they have a winning business model. While I still feel fishing is an individual sport which I would like to play in, I do believe as RNT said you need to have rules for teams.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| I like teams for the money tastes great. I like non-teams for the money is less filling. Taste great!, less filling!, taste great!, less filling!
Larry | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Shep - 6/10/2010 4:27 PM Sunshine - 6/10/2010 11:27 AM This is a problem? The original poster asked why it was such a problem with explaining how teams work. I explained why. I did not say that teams were a problem. I did not say that the way they operate is a problem. Nor did I insinuate that the secrecy of how they operate is problematic. I stand on what I wrote earlier. If it is not against the rules (and it is not) then it acceptable. I totally disagree with the perception of some that "teams" are a part of a perceived problem with tournament fishing. I had a different mindset than other rookies when I did my first FLW Tour and PWT. I put my dues in and accepted my fate along with the knowledge that there were teams. I befriended existing Pro's prior to entering my first events and was accepted into teams. I had my eyes wide open entering into these top end tournaments. I have no sympathy for those who do not do their homework. If you do not know what you are getting into it is your own fault. Unlike the perception painted here by some, the existing Pro's are not like sharks circling the life raft. Most are good people with great intentions trying to live the dream. If their business plan upsets some, I do not believe it is a curse or their problem. The day will come when there will be two very distinct levels of play. Level one will be for those willing to throw their own money into the pot. No different than our local tournaments. TFM is a great example of a great model. The second level for walleye fishing will be like the BASS Elite. You must qualify and you do not have to pay your way. But to stay there you must continue to prove yourself. The PWT tried a ranking system that would have worked (IMHO) for this type of series. You guys keep looking for answers to a percieved problem (Sorry, Steve I'm getting off track). My personal opinion is that walleye tournaments are boring now with they way they are covered. Only die-hards (most who are reading this thread) like watching them. But we are watching them for an exposed secret; cheering on a buddy; trying to learn about a new body of water; or just because there is nothing better to do. The average person can care less. Face it, watching planer boards for a show is boring.
I said it before and was beat up pretty good on this site. Get rid of live bait. Making it artificials only is a start. Do human interest stories. I believe that AIM has a lot of little pieces starting to work for them. I also believe that coverage on the internet is the future but they need to store and reshow the story later for free. And oh yea. let anglers be sponsored by alcohol, cigarettes, casino's ect. tTying to keep that wholesome image is not working. Amen
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | tyee - I can tell you this, I have fished tourneys and maybe will again sometime but right now the ones I can afford are full of suspicious activity that I don't care to waste my money on. Oh Boy, I can't wait to here what this means. Still got that nervous twitch Tyee :-) UFO's stealing the fish? All top teams must be hiding their fish on stringers in the lake and collect them when no one is looking? Inquisitive minds gotta know! But please remember, unsubstantiated i innuendo does more harm than good if you are really trying to improve the sport. I'll go get the popcorn buddy. Spill your guts.
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| Like I said before ask the bottom half of the pool of anglers over the next 2 weeks and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Visit some of the other discussion boards about this past weekends event of 350+ boats and you'll get a feel for what the "FAN" has to say! if your media or a touring pro you'll get an entirely different story than if your buying a stranger a beer and listening to him spill his guts!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Guest - 6/10/2010 7:25 PM Like I said before ask the bottom half of the pool of anglers over the next 2 weeks and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Visit some of the other discussion boards about this past weekends event of 350+ boats and you'll get a feel for what the "FAN" has to say! if your media or a touring pro you'll get an entirely different story than if your buying a stranger a beer and listening to him spill his guts! Good Luck Tyee Give web sites that you are referring to. Enlighten us, This is WF, they will not mind. Asking the bottom half sounds more like listen to sour grapes. The bottom in that national tournament always complain. As far as buying a beer. No one is stranger than you. I'll buy you that beer or two.
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| you know exactly what I'm talking about, all the other posters here do as well, just afraid to say it anymore. We've all been called to the carpet here before and I don't know how to substantiate something I personaly hear or say, While my presentation has been questioned before my honesty or intregrity has not, thats all I got and frankly thats not worth jepordizing on a message board. I'd be happy to drink your beer and by the way anyone here is more than welcome to stop by here Saturday and help me drink all these bottles and this barrel, we be celebrating the last child out of School. How's that popcorn so far?
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Berlin | Another get together at the TK Dennis? | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | You got it Rich! Anytime !! | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | I would still like to see the argument made that a team has an advantage! A better chance to win. or even a better chance to come out ahead in cash over a single pro going it alone. We are trying to make an argument to ban teams but after looking threw results and thinking about cercuits and seasons past i cant for the life of me find evidence of consistant check cashing results. maybe for 1 event, maybe for 3out of five for a season, but then the following year its a new story. No checks cashed or few and small. maybe some teams are stronger than others but maybe they are better fisherman on that team. or more experianced on the bodies of water fished that year. if someone could show consistan proof of team effort dominating i would like to see it. Remember that a non team angler winning an event cashes a bigger check for the season than 5 boats that finnish between 25th and 10th all season. sharing info is advantages if used with a grain of salt. share your fish and it most likely costs you your chance at a win! | |
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| Sunshine, In my last post I meant to ask why the teams not sharing their secrets is a problem, but couldn't go back and edit it. Thought you were saying that teams not sharing how they won was a problem. Now, I agree with your assesment on teams and their place in tourneys, and your approach to competing, which is remarkably similar to what I had said way back on page 1. You think I used you as my model for those statements? You bet I did!
As for Tyee. You said there are posts on other boards that describe what goes on in the large tourneys that we are/have taken place these several weeks. Fan sites, at that? You were asked to provide the links or names of these sites. I'm not letting you off easy here. Name them, or stop tossing out this stuff that only "you" and a few other anti tourney types seem to hear. | |
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| Shep, As someone put it after my post...it's most likely sour grapes, but it's comming from the "FAN BASE" or a disgruntled jealous, ego maniac......but they do exist, you too know they do! Are they worth listening too? DEFINATELY but First you have to understand why they are saying what they are saying. Only then can you determine the reason and the way to stop it! So if there is anti tournament sentiment in my tone and others like me....FIX IT!
Good Luck
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Hey Tyee:
I typed in "FAN BASE" into my search engine and all I got was links to ceiling fans. I'm obviously doing something wrong. Can you help? is that www.fanbase.com? Please enlighten :-) | |
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| Hmmm...can't find a single website anywhere that a fanbase of tournament fishing goes to discuss, support or talk about tournament fishing. No talk on stats, players or the game in general...why is that? The only people who seem to talk about it are the people involved in the sport or closely work with it. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | What do you think the user base of this website is comprised of, RNT? What are you talking about and discussing with others...right now? | |
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| Come on, you know what I am talking about. For the most part people here either fish tournaments or are closely connected to them. The discussions are about the tournaments, cost, prize structure, meetings...pretty much things to do with the players in the tournaments. This is not a tournament fan base forum in the sense that things are discussed among the plain observant fan. Walleye fishing fans...yes but not a spectator sport fan. Nothing bad about it but it is not really present. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | You believe Walleye Fishing fans are not spectators of the sport? Seriously? That's interesting.
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| No site for walleye fans? 2 there are 2 very qualified sites that the fans are on. Just because they fish events doesn't make them fans? I am lost now. | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | there were years when i fished as many as 13 or 14 events as a competitor. this year i have not fished one! I am a Fan and a spectator i guess. got out fishing today.... caught a handfull of walleyes but it was a tricky day. told and heard a few storys. lost a pile of respect for a great angler today as he had a first hand experiance with the legend. This makes the 3rd legend this year that i have found not to be the man i hoped or expected him to be all these years. also found out yesterday the the MWC Cabela's championship had found a dead 4 lb walleye that was without question white and dead well beond tournament hours. also that many saugeers slipped threw the cracks and got to the release boat. maybe a rumor but the source was as credible as one could be in my eyes... either way im still a fanand will look forward to this weekends otter street event to see how the faithfull walleye fisherman do battle. even with the garbage that goes on . Tyee has a point that faith in the system has abandoned him at times but ill be a fan! ill watch and root for freinds and guys i know are some of the best anglers on the system , ill watch them go head to head and i look forward to the coverage found here! | |
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| Being avid about fishing for walleye does not equate to being a fan of walleye tournament fishing. The fan base I am referring to would be the people who have never fished in a tournament for inspired monetary compensation and are not related to the participants or good friends with, or work somewhere within the food chain of the tournaments…fans who just like following the sport for the sport aspect of it. Like my son who is attached to a pro and wants to go see him fish, he doesn’t know him but only from one meeting but that pro left a big enough impression where my little boy wants to follow him. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | And that's a description of many who visit here.
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| On the site as a whole yes. But apply the above demographics to involvement with threads that deal with tournaments and it leans towards no. | |
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Location: Berlin | RNT, you can't imagine how many people are behind the scenes looking at these threads that fit your description. I meet them at sport shows all the time. Just because they don't post does not mean they don't care or are not interested. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Guest - 6/16/2010 11:01 PM Being avid about fishing for walleye does not equate to being a fan of walleye tournament fishing. The fan base I am referring to would be the people who have never fished in a tournament for inspired monetary compensation and are not related to the participants or good friends with, or work somewhere within the food chain of the tournaments…fans who just like following the sport for the sport aspect of it. Like my son who is attached to a pro and wants to go see him fish, he doesn’t know him but only from one meeting but that pro left a big enough impression where my little boy wants to follow him. I think that many of you are missing the boat. There is nothing wrong with a fan base that is comprised of a lot people who have tried tournaments or are thinking about doing tournaments. How many people will be watching golf this weekend who do NOT golf? We may be a bit unique as a sport. That is, spectators have the ability to jump in and try it. Very similar to Poker. Nothing wrong with this. In fact we should be capitalizing more on people who have the interest. The co-angler participation is a good start but we need to pick it up. The FLW fantasy whatever was also a good idea. Heck, there are people here who try guessing the weight and team number of the winner of upcoming events. Doesn't that show interest? Get more sponsors to pony up on something like this and you'll see more involvement. Back to Poker. Maybe our answer involves the big interest in Poker the last few years. If we can see why Poker has gained interest we may see another answer. After all, fishing and poker has a lot in common. People sit around watching overweight middle aged men lose money. :-)
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| We all have our great opinions and are all passionate about the sport but guest has my interpretation of "fan base" understood. Mom, Dad who never fished, kids and grand kids that think the shinny boat is cool. The person without a boat, and on and on. This "Fan Base" is your future and you need to attract them. Dennis...as to watching Golf this weekend as a "Fan"? There's only one in the house here who Golf's but we all know who Tiger is (even before the bad press) and we will follow him to see how he does. None of us Race but we watch the Indy 500 and Daytona every year the wife knows Mark Martin (for some unknown reason to me). You see, the fan IS the sport they spend the money to keep you playing (in most sports anyway) and Guest is on the right track. If you need teams to do it well then this anti-sentiment guy is all for building that game. Personally to me fishing is an individual sport if a solid "team" model is built that levels the playing field for ALL competitors, I'll support it, might even join in the fun, but I will not throw money away needlessly. If someone has a vested interest in me or I have a vested interest in promoting something I think Tourney fishing could be a very viable way to promote it and while some are on the right track....others have a long way to go!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | The fan base works and is needed in most other sports because the fan produces revenue.
Revenue in the stands.
Revenue by watching the sport on TV. (commercials)
Revenue by buying the jerseys, hats, etc.
How does our fan base produce revenue?
And please do not say that they buy fishing equipment. That'll get old real fast.
And by the way, your wife knows THE NAME Dennis (aka sunshine) Skurulsky too !!
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | " People sit around watching overweight middle aged men lose money. "
Dennis, I have to disagree... I am no longer "middl;e aged"... I get the discount at restaurants...LOL
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | LOL ..... miss you and your humor. | |
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| I know there is some type of interest out there but a fan is someone who interacts with the sport itself and to be honest I run into very few everyday fishermen who pay attention or even care about tournaments. TV poker does well because not only of the game but the player build personalities that the viewers follow….same with any reality TV but it is not sold as a sport either.
The point is there’s not a fan demographic of the likes above engaged in the discussions of tournaments in any type of mass like the fans of other sports. People do not sit around their homes and cottages discussing the latest outcome of a tournament and who is on top for the year. There are only three reasons I can think why. Either they are not there, or they are there but the sport does not give them much to talk about or engage in…meaning the sport is dull.
Tell me, besides the profound personality of the pro my son is attached to, what does the sport of tournament fishing directly offer for my son on a spectator sport basis other than a statistic on total fish weight? There is only so much a great personality and seeing a fish can do. The sport does not offer a wealth of various statistics for him to mull over and memorize like baseball, there is no sports memorabilia for him to collect, no chance of catching a fly ball or puck, and no jersey he can have signed. There are no tour boats to load up on and follow the pros on the water to see them in action up close and get excited as he would see a pro hook a fish. If he didn’t have a personal experience with that pro there really wouldn’t even be a personality for him to relate to.
Start keeping multiple statistics like how many strikes compared to how many actually hooked compared to how many made it in the boat.
Invest the money to start producing memorabilia for people to collect. Apparel, bobble heads, trading cards, posters.
Hire tour boats like the Spirit of the Fox to charge and bring spectators out on the water to bring them up close to the action.
Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it… Don’t just rely on a kid’s clinic after the tournament is done…give something tangible from the sport itself instead of letting them leave with just a memory, it would mean the same as a signed baseball.
Run it like a sport…where the rules of engagement are the same across the board at every game and applies to everyone. Right now there are competing factions and they are not uniform.
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I equate the tournament fishing fan base to that of the soccer fan base in the US. It’s only interesting if it’s something you’re involved in or have done. I am not a fan of soccer in any way shape or form, but I get sick of ESPN trying to ram soccer down my throat.
I think the average angler feels the same way about tournaments. Unfortunately fishing, especially competitive fishing brings out a lot of envy, hatred and jealousy. This isn’t true for the majority, but those bad apples constantly ruin it for all of us. A lot of the potential fans refuse to follow our events because of the perception caused by those bad apples. If we want this to grow, I think we need to police ourselves better.
We need to get rid of bad apples. I still say we can’t do this until there’s new blood to take the place of some of the yahoos who are only fishing because they can afford it (even if they’re not good people). Without a stepping stone, I don’t see how that new blood will get started. I agree with a previous poster that it is every one of our responsibilities to make this more exciting and memorable for new anglers and kids.
We started a Walleye club in La Crosse this January and are up to about 30 members. We hold small club tournaments the 1st and 3rd Thursday of every month. One thing we’re doing is having a simple kids fishing tournament (no entry, and any species count). We plan on doing as much as we can in the future. I really believe that the grass roots is what will save the game we love to play.
We want to improve the perception of Walleye fishing in our area. We want to build a release boat for local events that don’t use them. We want to offer free membership to kids, and maybe sponsor some of them to get into some smaller events. We use catch record release in our events. We want to be seen, and we want the parents of these kids to think “Hey, these are some pretty good folks. Let’s give this a try”.
We’re not pioneers, but we’re trying to do our part. We’d love to see clubs form all over the country, or have existing ones be more active. I know there are some good clubs in the Midwest and we thank them for the things they have done and the ideas they’ve helped us come up with. If you want to build a fan base, it has to be from the ground up. This will never be nascar, where almost every driver is a household name, but it certainly could be something better. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | RNT,
You have now reached the sublime in your first 5 paragraphs. Nothing more to say about that.
'Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it… Don’t just rely on a kid’s clinic after the tournament is done…give something tangible from the sport itself instead of letting them leave with just a memory, it would mean the same as a signed baseball. '
The NPAA Kids and Family fishing clinics are held before the last day weigh in at both Pro Circuits. AIM Bay Mills drew hundreds of kids. The NPAA Clinics offer every kid a T shirt the Pros all sign at the last weigh in, and a free rod/reel/tackle selection. I've seen plenty of pros hand everything from lures to rods to young folks.
Competing factions that are not uniform? What does that mean? Both Pro circuits are operated on the ground in a similar fashion, one just has alot more presence this year because FLW dropped TV and has after-the-fact web coverage. | |
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| How does everyone know who the guest is? Is RNT a special guest of our ours and that's why he gets to use the special guest handle? I'm just asking.
I think RNT needs to attend a few more pro level weigh ins and stop using his hypothetical situations as fact. Your assumptions of what kids expect is off based in my opinion. And why are kids the only fans? | |
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| It's me because of my IP address. I'm guest because I type nothing in guest name. Been to many tournaments but lost total interest many years ago...and key elements for a fan base in the sport is missing right now and that is the problem. Take it for what it is or dismiss it entirely. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | RNT: Your banter is getting real old. Many have tried to give you suggestions, out of the box ideas, and the benefit of doubt. It's getting to a point that if you have nothing nice to say ...... well you know the rest. I'm starting to back others that say shut up or put up. Instead of constantly saying it is broken; that won't work; "no, no, you miss my point; or Take it for what it is or dismiss it entirely.............. add value or be ignored. I run into very few everyday fishermen who pay attention or even care about tournaments. To add to the discussion, most people that I know who follow the upper echelon of tournaments do so to learn more techniques, spots, and the mindset of how to interpret or dissect. It was sad to see Walleye Insider go. Many bought it to read about the tournament results and techniques. Ever see the FLW mag? Great coverage that gets you excited. I disagree with you. Many watch tournaments to learn.
“There are no tour boats to load up on and follow the pros on the water to see them in action up close and get excited”. Guess you have never watched a BASS tournament where there a 50 boats out on the water watching the tournament fishermen. I have had some watch me and I have watched others as a observer. “…… there is no sports memorabilia for him to collect, no chance of catching a fly ball or puck, and no jersey he can have signed. Boy, sometimes you act like you have not been to a real tournament. I see many handing out baseball card like memorabilia; signing hats and jerseys; and dialoguing with the kids like your son. One of us is missing something. “Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it…” Seen this often, where have you been?Done it myself.
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| "The fan base works and is needed in most other sports because the fan produces revenue.
Revenue in the stands.
Revenue by watching the sport on TV. (commercials)
Revenue by buying the jerseys, hats, etc.
How does our fan base produce revenue?"
Was this not your words? Having people take their own boats out to watch and not have a way for the everyday person without a boat to do the same is not creating any revenue. Keep thinking of the fan base as only people who have boats.
What store can my son visit to buy a trading card for all the pro fishermen? What tournament can he attend that all the pros carry franchised trading cards? What store can he go to purchase a jersey that looks just like on of the pros?
Where are the cards located so he can collect one of a pro he doesn't get a chance to see at a tournament?
Banter is getting old but all I ever hear is the industry is doing everything brought up...so I must not be in reality. Since everything is being done and done correctly there obviously is no concern at all with the size of the fan base and everyone considers it satisfactory. Congratulations on the success.
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| "Start keeping multiple statistics like how many strikes compared to how many actually hooked compared to how many made it in the boat.
Invest the money to start producing memorabilia for people to collect. Apparel, bobble heads, trading cards, posters.
Hire tour boats like the Spirit of the Fox to charge and bring spectators out on the water to bring them up close to the action.
Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it… Don’t just rely on a kid’s clinic after the tournament is done…give something tangible from the sport itself instead of letting them leave with just a memory, it would mean the same as a signed baseball.
Run it like a sport…where the rules of engagement are the same across the board at every game and applies to everyone. Right now there are competing factions and they are not uniform."
If these are not considered ideas then you are right, I have nothing to offer. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The first paragraph is ridiculous on it's face value. Impossible, too.
The second has been and is being done, many of the pros have baseball style cards and hand them out freely
Where would the 'tour boat' go? Which pros would they follow? it's hard enough to find them with a camera boat. What if the bite's off...what do the tour boat folks 'watch'? And if they were close enough to actually see what's going on....they'd be too close.
Already answered the last one.
Sunshine nailed it. | |
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| Revenue isn't being generated but rather shared. I think what some, myself included, are saying is that we are going after the wrong sponsors and if new team concepts are being done these guys should think big and rewrite those business plans....
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| if new team concepts are being done these guys should think big and rewrite those business plans....
Elaborate, Tyee.
The players are dwindleing, the game needs more players. You can't write a bigger business plan for more fans and offer less.
Like wise, RNT, you can't offer bobble heads, gimics, and gizmos to attract a fan base. I mean, really? Who's buying cracker jacks for the prize in the box still?
The game needs a new generation of players. The price to play as marketed is rediculous. And not teams or any other gadget you want to come up with is going to bring more players or fans. Once the industry sits back and realizes that the new generation can't afford the top tier game as it is "sold" today. That is when the "game" will find new players. | |
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| I don't have the answers either Jayman. BUT. I think AIM has a good start at it. If they can get the concept perfected and come up with a model that works for them. It needs to be haded down to a group willing to organize something similar as a minor league it would be much more attractive to the new generation. In addition if there is ever a true multi player team that is funded through a large sponsor it doesn't necessarily have to WIN but needs to be marketable. How many times a year do you see a Nascar at an event with a "driver" promoting something, do you have any idea what kind of dollars a driver makes to fly in and sign autographs? (its HUGE) What it costs to have the semi bring the car in from Charlotte (ever see Dale Earnhardts look alike nascars up close?) He alone was estimated to have 5 million fans and he didn't get there playing for a discount on Goodwrench!
RNT has some good points although I don't think gimmics for the fans are going to do it, you need the investors and a level playing field first, if you build it right they will come.
A true team model would need to remove "advantages" for example: Nascar has a motor size restriction, restrictor plates, spoilers etc, etc. As another thread recently discussed the price of a fully rigged boat, team A in a 76k Ranger with a merc 300 may have an advantage over team B in a 30k TUffy with a 150, therefore it could be argued that he has an advantage, Irwin tried leveling the playing field once with identical boats on the last day, was it too expensive to continue?
There are all kinds of "ADVANTAGES" I'm sure collectively we could come up with a few pages of those advantages we'd like eliminated to level the playing field............but then again...................is a team really an advantage?
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Appleton wi | Hey tyee , Do you and RNT have the same mother? HaHaHa(kidding) Tyee how many l tourny's have you fished in your life?
Edited by eye Lunker 6/18/2010 7:52 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Tournament fishing can and will survive with very few attending weigh-ins. How many of you have sat and watched fish swim by an underwater camera on the Wolf? http://wolfrivercam.com/ How many have tuned into an AIM event to watch the GPS tracking and on the water interviews? (Steve and AIM, we need more of these) http://www.aimfishing.com/ How many of you have watched the brand new camera feeds from "On the Water Live" with Steil, Przekurat and Courts? http://www.onthewaterlive.com/index.cfm How many of you have logged on to a site to chat while watching the weigh-in?
How many of you have gone to the FLW web site to play Fantasy Fishing? http://www.fantasyfishing.com/ (side note: RNT, you can get some of your stats at this site also. It is interesting to look up people who visit the WF site and see how many FLW tournaments they have done and their results. Sometimes I use this info to distinguish between the players and the pretenders on this site.) How many of you used the walleye rankings here on WF? Watched the video from the event? Read the articles? My point is a simple one. Stop thinking about tournaments within the model used to cover them in the past. AIM is starting a great new trend for walleye fishing. They are using something called the internet. And I think that internet thing will catch on. Add new Apps for your Iphones and Blackberry's. Sell RNT's trinkets from the site. Have an artificial only tournament sponsored by 1-2 companies and then sell the lures on the same web site during the tournament (wouldn't this show companies that people are watching?) Web presence for tournaments as we know it today is in its infancy. Tie all of things above together onto one site. Keep it free. Make it fun. Offer give-aways. Offer other things for a fee that people may want to buy. Offer all of this and some sponsors will sponsor your site not the tournament.
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| I kind of get tired of the NASCAR comparison, but for those that belive that is the model. Fine.
Sure, Dale Jr has 5 milliion+ fans. etc etc etc.
Consider this, how many speedways do you know of in WI alone? Dirt track, paved, oval, road? I'm sure some text book brainiac can find those stats, after all statistics are important.
Now lets consider that the sport of NASCAR is deeply rooted in the south, where marquee named tracks are not that far apart. Some of those marquee tracks aren't extravagant, they have history. The stuff that legends are made of.
The equipment, the top end, best of the best, is what make up the raceing billboards you all speak of. The same is still true even at the small track local level. The difference, Average Joe buys a junker at the junk yard and dumps all of his money into tires and an engine in hopes of being the next Dale Jr. As he gets better and wins, he will look at the top end equipment. The competive edge that it takes to compete with the best of the best. It becomes an invesment in knowledge and equipment.
Everybody wants that top tier game, but you need to have new players you need to have a host of "courts" for people to sharpen their skills, establish the pecking order and allow the cream to rise to the top. Then you'll have a top tier game.
The industry continues to market and sell to the established players, but very few new players can afford to play.
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| Jayman - 6/17/2010 10:45 PM The game needs a new generation of players. The price to play as marketed is rediculous. And not teams or any other gadget you want to come up with is going to bring more players or fans. Once the industry sits back and realizes that the new generation can't afford the top tier game as it is "sold" today. That is when the "game" will find new players. Your internet words of truth makes me cry a little on the inside. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | My head is starting to hurt. I've agreed with Jayman and Stacker in the same month. This is a new thing for me. I've said it several times before and will this one last time. We need better stepping stones. The old time tourney guys just say “Jump in and prove you belong”.
That’s not how things work these days. Less and less people are willing to mortgage their future on a fishing tournament, especially since the payouts are so much lower than they were 5-10 years ago. Everybody wants to test the waters before taking a plunge. I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler.
You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. I still believe that today.
Look at all the sports we’ve compared tournament fishing too. They all have some sort of minor leagues. Don’t tell me the MWS or club tournaments are the minor leagues. They are great, and can build a lot of experience, but it’s not the same as fishing a pro/am. $1500 or even $750 is an awful high entry price for somebody just to gain experience. Fishing as the sole planner and decision maker (pre-tournament) of your boat is much different than working with a partner in a team event.
You may get a great co who can be a huge help. But in a pro/am format, you cannot count on that. Most are great, but you have to develop your own plan and anything you get from your co is a bonus. This is a whole new experience for a new tournament angler. Without spending time fishing these types of events they will not know how well their skill set stacks up.
Bass fishing has stepping stones, even though I don’t think their model fits us 100%. They have events like the BFL, where anglers can compete for a little more money but still not break the bank. These are what’s needed if we want new anglers. If we continue with the current team events and high end pro/am events only, the high end pro/am numbers will continue to diminish. | |
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| GNWC Rookie - 6/18/2010 10:00 AM I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler. You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. Dude, that was a one time thing, and I wish you'd stop bringing it up. Trolling is boring, and the mind wanders sometimes... | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | thumper - 6/18/2010 10:54 AM
GNWC Rookie - 6/18/2010 10:00 AM I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler. You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. Dude, that was a one time thing, and I wish you'd stop bringing it up. Trolling is boring, and the mind wanders sometimes...
It wouldn't be etched into my brain if you wouldn't have kept telling me to check your rod for weeds. What the hell does that even mean? | |
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| tyee - 6/17/2010 11:34 PM
A true team model would need to remove "advantages" for example: Nascar has a motor size restriction, restrictor plates, spoilers etc, etc. As another thread recently discussed the price of a fully rigged boat, team A in a 76k Ranger with a merc 300 may have an advantage over team B in a 30k TUffy with a 150, therefore it could be argued that he has an advantage, Irwin tried leveling the playing field once with identical boats on the last day, was it too expensive to continue?
There are all kinds of "ADVANTAGES" I'm sure collectively we could come up with a few pages of those advantages we'd like eliminated to level the playing field............but then again...................is a team really an advantage?
Good Luck
Tyee
I wish you people who think you know all about tourney fishing, and NASCAR racing, would stop trying to state what you really don't know about either.
On one hand we're told that NASCAR has teammates that don't compete against each other, or share information. Hooey! Then we are told that NASCAR has rules, and tourney fishing doesn't. ie, engine size, restrixtor plates, etc. Pro tours also limit motor, and boat size, and also restrict many things. Nascar allows radio contact to discuss race set ups, strategy, etc. Banned in Pro Tourneys. Nascar has restrictor plates on some tracks. Pro tourneys restrict the number of lines, they type of baits, and the type of communication. Just a few examples, so please stop!!!
Also, as far as I know, you can't run that 300 HP Verado in the AIM or the FLW. Also, I seriously doubt that would give an advantage over the $40K team Tuffy with the 225 Opti's. Again, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Remove the advantages of the teams and level. But is a team reall an advantage? What??? The more you talk, the more you make my case.
Also, I don't have a clue what is going on between rookie, and thumper. Don't know what check the rods for weeds means? Trolling is boring anyway? If you are not willing to be a good co, how can you expect to be a good pro? | |
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Location: Berlin | Rumor has it you are the best Co out there Shep. Word has it you definitely did your part | |
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| Shep - 6/18/2010 1:57 PM tyee - 6/17/2010 11:34 PM I wish you people who think you know all about tourney fishing, and NASCAR racing, would stop trying to state what you really don't know about either. On one hand we're told that NASCAR has teammates that don't compete against each other, or share information. Hooey! Then we are told that NASCAR has rules, and tourney fishing doesn't. ie, engine size, restrixtor plates, etc. Pro tours also limit motor, and boat size, and also restrict many things. Nascar allows radio contact to discuss race set ups, strategy, etc. Banned in Pro Tourneys. Nascar has restrictor plates on some tracks. Pro tourneys restrict the number of lines, they type of baits, and the type of communication. Just a few examples, so please stop!!! Also, as far as I know, you can't run that 300 HP Verado in the AIM or the FLW. Also, I seriously doubt that would give an advantage over the $40K team Tuffy with the 225 Opti's. Again, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Remove the advantages of the teams and level. But is a team reall an advantage? What??? The more you talk, the more you make my case. Also, I don't have a clue what is going on between rookie, and thumper. Don't know what check the rods for weeds means? Trolling is boring anyway? If you are not willing to be a good co, how can you expect to be a good pro? I agree 100% | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | rookie, reality is there are stepping stones. smaller tournaments offer the same competion. if you want to test your metal against the big boys simply take a week off work and pre-fish then fish the two days of the tournament on the same water under the same time restrictions and rules. Fish hard and see how your day goes. check computer for where you would match up after day one and make your plans for day two.... No entrie required. unfortunatly there are no paid stepping stones to the top. and the top level current pro's are not sharp as a whip in marketing some fishing related product or service they will also be digging into there pockets to fish at the top level just as we dig in our pockets to fish a lower level.. some guys who love fishing have deep pockets from other buisness ventures or windfalls of some sort. they can play the game as long as they find it gets there blood pumping. if your like me ... one good power ball ticket away from the big show.... well i feal your frustration. Bass does have a ladder to the top. winning your smaller league event gets you an entry to the next level in most cases. yet bass fishing can be done on inland lakes in most cases much smaller locations. all you need is a 16 foot aluminum dolled up jon boat with a 50 on the back if that even. if you make it to the big dance there will be plenty of freinds made by then to help if you need a rig that will run 60 miles at 70mph.. walleye fishing on the upper level has become a big water game a guy can find a nice competitive boat for ten or fifteen grand if he wants . but i know of a few small bass clubs and these guys have no problem even running tournaments on lakes that have a no gas motor allowed on sunday rule and no wake.
i have been talking about a little tiller series for a year now and mulling this project over... but if you have a boat bigger than 17ft from tip to tail or over 60 hp.... guess what... YOUR OUT... or maybe ill create a rule you can only run on your kicker.... what do i hafta do make a call and go in front of the AIM board of directors and see if i can get a slot for our tour champion in one of next years events? maybe the little kicker tour can pay the champion boats way to the big time. oh wait that would be two entries woulnt it! now the lil tiller tour needs to rais entries by 100 bucks a tourny. the only thing stopping me from doing it is the permit process and i have seen what kind of headaches a director has to deal with at a walleye tournament.. my idia is to build something based of fun and freindships and honor... not sure i could do it with the kind of folks set on spoiling the fun. | |
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| Another thread of interest turning into a small battle of nothing...
RNT - I give you a lot of credit for pushing the envelope.
Obviously some people feel competitive walleye angling is suceeding when in fact it's about to or has hit the bottom. Until the sport (or whatever you'd like to refer to it as) figures out a way to put the focus on the angler, pro(fessional), pro(motional), boater or whatever in the heck you want to call it I feel it will go NO WHERE. Perhaps it'll recover but it won't be long until it's back on it's knees. Somehow (and I don't have the business knowledge and acumen) a group of people need to establish a business plan for competitive walleye angling and insure that both the participants and sponsors create synergy so both gain financially and from a promotional standpoint.
If the current designs were so great why would we be having these conversations?
Lastly - if you don't agree with someone is it truly professional to bash them (even subtly) or call them out? I truly challenge many of the posters on this thread to look in the mirror and ask themselves if their responses represent a "professional" in any walk of life (well anything but the NBA, NFL or MLB). From my experience working with medical professionals I think you'll be sadly awakened and disappointed.
Teams in competitive angling? Ridiculous and a complete contradiction to mano a mano (one on one) fishing. Level playing field? Yeah, get a clue and again look in the mirror.
Maybe AIM is on the right track and will be fun to watch. Hopefully things rebound and for me personally, I'd like to be back competing when time permits.
Kurt | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Obviously some people feel competitive walleye angling is suceeding when in fact it's about to or has hit the bottom. Until the sport (or whatever you'd like to refer to it as) figures out a way to put the focus on the angler, pro(fessional), pro(motional), boater or whatever in the heck you want to call it I feel it will go NO WHERE.'
'Maybe AIM is on the right track and will be fun to watch. Hopefully things rebound and for me personally, I'd like to be back competing when time permits. '
I believe AIM's entire goal has been to do exactly what you are suggesting. As far as RNT, he reaps what he sews in reaction by folks responding to him during the debate. Most of the responses are not from Pro anglers. 'Calling someone out' to ask them to either back up or offer facts behind an accusation, claim, or exclamation of 'fact' isn't unprofessional, it's part of any spirited debate. Lots of personalities in play here, so one expects varied responses and reactions to the questions and answers.
I'd ask you this:
Isn't it the economy that has driven the sport's successes and failures, for the most part? When Jacobs was flush and the money was coming in from sponsors, the Pros fished the events. When the money from sponsors was tough to come by, the Circuit shrank, the payouts shrank, and the Pros didn't show up; perhaps because they can't afford to fish...because of the economy. Isn't it all about the money, when the rest of this is fleshed out? When the money got tougher and tougher for the PWT to collect from endemic and non-endemic sponsors, wasn't that a contributing factor? As folks fell into the funk sure to be the reaction to the financial meltdown in the US, EVERYTHING was effected, and I personally feel the beginnings were in place to change how events were covered and focus more on the Pro; that's why AIM formed up, and that was in process before the demise of the PWT and the closing of Walleye Insider and Walleye Fan.
Teams in Pro Walleye Fishing. Opinions?
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | n/m
Edited by stacker 6/21/2010 12:19 PM
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| I am with Shep, quit comparing walleye fishing to Nascar. We need to level the playing field, I ask for who? The boat doesn't catch fish and the last time I looked I have never caught a fish with my motor. I will give you a perfect example of leveling the playing field is just plain silly. i just fished a tournament this past weekend in northcentral Wisconsin. There were Rangers, Tuffys, a Yar-Craft with a 275 hp Verado. I have an Alumacraft 165 with a 90hp fourstroke. Sure I felt intimidated, but I still fished because I love to walleye fish. Did they have an advantage - one would think so, no I did not win either, a father daugter team won fishing out a I'm guessing a 1970 fiberglass tri-hall painted baby blue with a 25 hp tiller. The yfigured out something we all didn't, that is fishing, and if you do not agree, maybe you should see your poles and watch Nascar | |
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| Hey, somebody agrees with me! I hear there's a few out there afraid to PM me themselves. S'ok. It's about par for the course.
Biggest difference between NASCAR and Pro fishing Tourneys? A majority of non-endemic sponsiorship. Most team's major sponsorship comes from outside the auto industry. Some minor auto related associate sponsorship is evident. None of the automotive brands are major sponsors anymore. Dodge was the last, with the Evernham teams. Name one automotive related company that is a MAJOR sponsor.
Pro Tourney fishing now? NO major non-endemic sponsors. A few associate sponsors. Not nearly enough.
AIM is for the angler, by the angler. FLW/PWT is/was all about the promoters, with little emphasis on promoting the angler. Jacobs got more press than Skarlis, KK, Parsons, and the rest. See what I'm saying? | |
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| Steve - I certainly agree with what you are saying.... It's just that sometimes people seem to forget that some of the banter that goes on in these threads is not good for the sport. You never know who is reading and watching. There is a way to disagree with someone and not beat them to the carpet. And you are right, we all have opinions about team pre-fishing and to each their own. Me personally - I just don't believe theirs an audience interested in following this sport until either they (fans. general public) are either made privvy to those team members or the entire format is revised to level the playing field. Trying to fish "old" bodies of water against them as a newbie is a rather steep hill to climb and does NOTHING to entice new blood into this rather spendy sport. Thanks for your reply and your website. Kurt | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | KTurner UL - 6/22/2010 7:34 AM
Me personally - I just don't believe theirs an audience interested in following this sport until either they (fans. general public) are either made privvy to those team members or the entire format is revised to level the playing field. Trying to fish "old" bodies of water against them as a newbie is a rather steep hill to climb and does NOTHING to entice new blood into this rather spendy sport. Thanks for your reply and your website. Kurt
Thank You Kurt. This is what I have been trying to say as well. I should have just said it that way right away. The days of guys being willing to travel all over the country to fish new water for events are over, which leaves us with waters that most of the veterans have fished many many times.
I would rather put my money up against that competition, teams or not to fish some body of water that I'm sure they've not spent a lot of time on either. That's how you can truly test yourself against them. Fishing against a team of anglers who've fished events on that water for 20 years is completely different. It's not impossible, but it's not the wisest move ever.
The attitude many have given about "Just man up and fish and prove yourself" only further alienates the potential new blood. That's another thing we as anglers need to improve on. We need to welcome new players into the game. We need to make sure they get treated well enough to come back again and again (no, I don't want you to give them your spots etc... just don't be a jerk to them). Every one person that gets treated poorly by a tournament angler or organization probably tells 100 people about their experience.
We get a bad enough rap the way it is. If people truly want things to get better, it has to come from each and every one of us. The FLW is not going to do it for you, AIM may try and may help the cause, but it's the anglers that can make the difference. | |
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| I see the south park episode is still going.
Larry | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | bottom line comes down to cash flow. the entire argument for teams, or stepping stones or a chance to compete in the big show on an even playing field still comes down to cash flow! follow the money. economy or whatever.. name the sport.. racing , golf , competitive fishing, poker, whatever. if you have the checkbook to handle the ups and downs for a long enough period of time ... you can become a winner. you need a bit of tallent but most comes down to money and time invested learning. in racing anything .... you need top notch engin builders and must be willing to pay the big bucks for an extra horsepower or two. there is always a car builder with an edge. golf... did you grow up with a membership and learn the game from experianced teachers? or put in your time yourself... you will still hafta starve on the mini tour till you qualify for the big shows... fishing? get out the checkbook! guys would run credit cards to 30 grand trying to live the walleye fishing dream! they would maybe have a 5 year plan and set asside 15 years of savings to give it a shot.. spend inheritance or whatever to chase the dream.... Poof Gone! last year i would say half the heavy hitters lost there boat deal! most sold a boat or two a year and after the deal they got on electronics bow mount boat trailer and motor they could sell there rigs for some extra cash... Not much but it paid next years tournament registration fee's with some modest sponsorship or in most cases (a real job on the side) they could afford to fish the pwt, Flw, AIM or whatever. things have changed and will get worse before they get better. there are those who have planned and made some good choices in life or helped there grandfathers and fathers build buisness that can servive in these hard times. i would say half the field is make up of tournament anglers with product marketed in the fishing industry and the other half are made up of folks with a checkbook. oh ya and you need time to play the game... weeks away from work. for the rest of the walleye fisherman who are out there who would love to play ball.... hey.. Face it... you may not have the checkbook.... you cant servive on tournament winnings! NO ANGLER EVER HAS THAT I KNOW OF!!!!!! EVER! find a way to make money in the industry or out of it to support your tournament dream thats the hard truth. companies lookin to sponsor something if they have money to write off! will support there grandchildrens or familys dreams before the offer it to you! ( UNLESS YOU CAN FIND A WAY TO MAKE THEM MONEY) as far as teams... these teams are made up of guys trying to servive another year, or guys who have created frendship and another family on the road. nothing more than that... oh and there were reports of possible cell phone abuse again in the last few weeks and if i ever see this going on in a tournament im turning the boys in!!!!!!!!!!!! i have had enough of the sh**! wondering when others will too! a pre-fishing team and sharing expenses is one thing... Breaking the rules on the water durrung a tournament is THEFT! and your stealing from your fellow anglers and people you call freinds! im getting pizzed! | |
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| Did anyone else catch Gary Parson's soap box speach during the final day of the AIM weigh in? I thought it was very well spoken and thought out. Yet I felt a little uneasy about it. He had a problem with complainers in regards to teams in walleye fishing. I think it was directed at this thread. Yes some complain and are against it. We are all entitled to an opinion. I don't have a problem with it, I just want to understand it better. I don't like the secrecy. I fished as a co angler and got some first hand knowledge of teams and how they operate. Most anglers are open about which was suprising. They didn't even think twice about on the water communications. It is also easy to see that teams have an advantage. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I caught it and thought it was interesting. Gary seemed pretty passionate about it, maybe even irritated. He did a pretty good job with it. Like you said, I don't know exactly what I thought of it, but I wasn't offended or more turned off by it. | |
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Location: Berlin | Summary??? I did not get to see it. Is it on video somewhere? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Gary has allot of passion for the sport, and is truly one of the pioneers. I think he was trying to impress upon folks the reality of competitive angling for walleyes, and IMO did a good job. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | He basically pointed out that he never saw Keith on the water during the tournament and that he only saw Chase once. He also pointed out how far apart they finished. He spoke about the fish he caught on the final day and how he was far away from the crowds and it's possible for one person to find their own fish. | |
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Location: Berlin | I wish I would have been there to hear it.
BTW, I loved Robert Blosser's response to his win. He was not shy about who he teamed up with and used the term "we". Shows a lot of character. | |
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| You can see Gary in the AIM rewind part 2
http://www.aimfishing.com/video.asp?id=2683
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| Parsons' talk about teams should be in here somewhere...
http://www.aimfishing.com/video.asp?id=2683
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Location: Berlin | Thanks! | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | ERGENT!!!!! IMIDIATE OPENINGS ON A MAJOR 17 BOAT TEAM! JOIN THE BIG NAMES ! JOIN OUR CLUB! LEARN THE SECRET HANDSHAKE! HEAR ALL THE GOOD WAR STORIES! FORM INSTANT FREINDSHIPS WITH OVERE 30 ANGLERS INSTANTLY! INTERVIEWS WILL BE HELD AFTER A SMALL TEST GIVEN TO INTERESTED POTENTIAL MEMBERS! WE ARE LOOKING FOR ANYONE WHO IS CATCHING WALLEYES CURRENTLY ON LAKE WINNIBAGGO! THE TEST WILL BE A 4 HOUR FISHING CONTEST ON SATURDAY MORNING AND MEMBERS WILL BE CHOSEN BASED ON RESULTS! WE ARE LOOKING TO ADD ONLY A FEW TEAMS TO THIS TOP NOTCH ELIET GROUP! ALL DESISIONS WILL BE MADE PRIOR TO THE MWS TOURNAMENT RULES MEATING AND WINNERS WILL BE GUEST SPEAKERS AT OUR TEAM DINNER ON SATURDAY NIGHT! THANK YOU AND CONTACT ME PERSONALY AT TAILPIPERS++++++ @ YAHOO.COM THANK YOU! | |
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Location: Omro,Wi. | bradley894 - 8/4/2010 11:54 AMERGENT!!!!! IMIDIATE OPENINGS ON A MAJOR 17 BOAT TEAM! JOIN THE BIG NAMES ! JOIN OUR CLUB! LEARN THE SECRET HANDSHAKE! HEAR ALL THE GOOD WAR STORIES! FORM INSTANT FREINDSHIPS WITH OVERE 30 ANGLERS INSTANTLY! INTERVIEWS WILL BE HELD AFTER A SMALL TEST GIVEN TO INTERESTED POTENTIAL MEMBERS! WE ARE LOOKING FOR ANYONE WHO IS CATCHING WALLEYES CURRENTLY ON LAKE WINNIBAGGO! THE TEST WILL BE A 4 HOUR FISHING CONTEST ON SATURDAY MORNING AND MEMBERS WILL BE CHOSEN BASED ON RESULTS! WE ARE LOOKING TO ADD ONLY A FEW TEAMS TO THIS TOP NOTCH ELIET GROUP! ALL DESISIONS WILL BE MADE PRIOR TO THE MWS TOURNAMENT RULES MEATING AND WINNERS WILL BE GUEST SPEAKERS AT OUR TEAM DINNER ON SATURDAY NIGHT! THANK YOU AND CONTACT ME PERSONALY AT TAILPIPERS++++++ @ YAHOO.COM THANK YOU! I don't care who you are THAT'S FUNNY! | |
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