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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | ..... is no more. Did you watch the Gary Parsons pre take off video. For the first time in public, he openly admitted that he knows what keith and chase have been doing and how they been doing and "The 3 of them that ride together and room together"....
Like it or not, at least the hiding the fact has stopped. Now maybe we can get the low down on the teams that have formed and know who is fishing with who, and how they work, and how they have been doing and all that.... | |
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Location: Berlin | I was SHOCKED! You mean there are "teams" that work together to find fish during the prefish period? That is crazy stuff right there.  | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Perry Good summed it up pretty well as he talked about teams with Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen in their last radio piece. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I'm not believing a word of this team stuff........they do not exist!! | |
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Location: Berlin | I suppose next he is going to tell us these guys get paid to brag about the products they use...sheesh | |
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| stacker arnt you the guy who braggs about knowing who the teams are but you never wanna tell anyone? | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | wildflower - 8/12/2010 4:40 PM
stacker arnt you the guy who braggs about knowing who the teams are but you never wanna tell anyone?
exactly why would that matter wildflower? even though you do have me confused with someone else thats knows more, why exactly would that matter? come out of your closet wildflower, its ok, and tell us all why you think it matters?
The worm has turned and jerry and rich know this. for new guys who dont know, these public admittances will change the game for ever, just watch.
When 2 of the founding fathers admitt it publicly, thats power. | |
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| This post has to be an attempt at sarcasim at the very least. Everyone in the planet knows those three guys have always worked together and that many others do as well. IF I am wrong here then I guess we could beat this thing to death in the good old groundhound day fashion.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Berlin | Seriously, I agree Denny. Not sure why it took so long hence my sarcasm. Being open and public about these teams is a step in the right direction imo. Keeping it quiet might confuse newbies into thinking it needs to be kept quiet for the wrong reasons. They are not doing anything wrong so why keep it quiet. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Jim Ordway - 8/16/2010 6:10 PM
This post has to be an attempt at sarcasim at the very least. Everyone in the planet knows those three guys have always worked together and that many others do as well. IF I am wrong here then I guess we could beat this thing to death in the good old groundhound day fashion.
Take care,
Jim O
The one thing many of us take for granted, and the majority knows nothing about, TEAMS.
"the worm has turned and the game can move forward at a incredible pace"
Edited by stacker 8/17/2010 9:15 AM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Since some here find this information to be of major importance and feel it will create some sort of "change", could you please tell me how many people who follow fishing and, walleye tournament fishing in particular, didn't know that teams existed before the past weekend? To add, please explain what this "change" will be? Sorry folks, but I just don't see this to be a relevation of any sort. I think anyone who followed walleye tournament fishing knew that teams existed for many years before I started......just my opinion. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | jerry - 8/17/2010 11:18 AM
Since some here find this information to be of major importance and feel it will create some sort of "change", could you please tell me how many people who follow fishing and, walleye tournament fishing in particular, didn't know that teams existed before the past weekend? To add, please explain what this "change" will be? Sorry folks, but I just don't see this to be a relevation of any sort. I think anyone who followed walleye tournament fishing knew that teams existed for many years before I started......just my opinion.
Good call Jerry, and after being a FAN of the sport for over 20 years here is my humble opinion, which you know is always right.
Most guys, when starting out in the tourney world, have no idea how things work. Even today, there are guys who have no idea how AIM works for sure. I have 3 guys who have been fishing events for over 5 years that tell me that AIM will not survive because when they fished with pros from other states, the pro would not listen to them on there own body of water and did not catch many fish. Honestly, doing what I do for a living I talk to tons of guys. Miss information and twisted info has most not even wanting to be a fan of the sport. From the FLW guys twisting things against AIM, from one guy saying there are teams, one guys says there are partners, ones guy says they share rooms but no info, and so on and so on. It has been happening since the start, BUT, unless you are very close to it all, you will never hear it all. It was the brothers handshake. THIS IS THE TRUTH.
Enter the knew era where a sponsor can form a team that actually works together in public. Maybe actually have the investment to pay there way in the sport. More addvertisements to cover more fractions of the public that fish, and maybe spark the thrill of the sport to others. A guy can cheer for his favorite group knowing that so and so did not win on the hump by himself, it was a team effort and more info gets out to the public. Jerry, you know I know, and we both know lots of people that know as well, but I bet we can go through the various walleye clubs, the guys who are members because they are addicted, and most will not know what we are talking about or they think they know and we will find out they really dont.
"Without followers, there is no leader."
"Keep doing what you are doing and expect it to change".
"Attitude reflects leadership"
To make the sport more mainstream, more have to follow the pied pipers. The whole idea of 2 founding fathers of the sport, Perry Good and Gary Parsons, that are willing to now divulge the fact there are teams is a movement in the right directions. And not a bowel either. The marketing minds can start working.
Edited by stacker 8/17/2010 1:13 PM
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| Stacker, flip your switch back to normal talk, you must have bumped it to "politic speak"...
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| Stacjer, you obviously have not fished In an AIM event. You as a co angler are not to give out advise to the pros, they should have a program buy then figured iut, and if not so be it. Your three buddies should have known that and kept thier mouths shut | |
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Location: Rhinelander | I actually agree with Stacker in principle. The 'average' walleye tournament fan/observer saw only the articles and releases saying who won, and had no idea that win may have been the result, in part, of a team of Pros working together.
Now the Pros are actually talking about their teams and partners on stage, and it's obvious the practice is not anywhere near as much a negative to the competition and the sport as one might assume. Is it 'fair'? Sure, as long as it isn't against the rules. And Stacker might have something with his idea of sponsored teams marketed by companies that want thier products out in front of the public. In fact, that's already goi9ng on, to a degree. | |
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| You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best.
As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc.
As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule.
"After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS"
Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Shep - 8/18/2010 11:06 AM
You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best.
As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc.
As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule.
"After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS"
Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too.
Prime example of:
"Keep doing what you are doing and expect it to change". | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sworrall - 8/18/2010 11:00 AM
I actually agree with Stacker in principle. The 'average' walleye tournament fan/observer saw only the articles and releases saying who won, and had no idea that win may have been the result, in part, of a team of Pros working together.
Now the Pros are actually talking about their teams and partners on stage, and it's obvious the practice is not anywhere near as much a negative to the competition and the sport as one might assume. Is it 'fair'? Sure, as long as it isn't against the rules. And Stacker might have something with his idea of sponsored teams marketed by companies that want thier products out in front of the public. In fact, that's already goi9ng on, to a degree.
This will fit in here, I think Sworrall agrees:
"Without followers, there is no leader."
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| Do you read only what you want to read? Please read the whole post, and pay attention to what I, and others have been saying for years. I'll pick the important part out for you.
"Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc."
How do you read that as doing the same thing?
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Location: Rhinelander | Shep, I don't think we're talking about 'first mention', we are talking about public perception. The AVERAGE fan didn't know about the teams, and it wasn't discussed much. It appears now it will be, onstage, in articles and interviews, regularly and often.
I think Stacker was talking about the fact the locals he spoke to SAID what they did..even a few of the participants in the events, knowing the rules or not, don't yet understand the landscape. if they don't, and talk openly about it, how is the 'average' fan supposed to ferret it all out? | |
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| OK, given I accept that premise, who is considered the "Average" fan?
I don't think that list would include 95% of the people who attend weigh ins, and those fish tourneys such as FLW, AIM, MWS, IAT, IWS, Merc, Otter Street, MWC, SWC, and many others. Perhaps a portion of the entrants in some local bar tourneys don't have any idea, but are they really considered fans of Professional Walleye Tournaments?
You want to build the fan base, you got to promote the individual anglers. Sure, the fact they are members of a certain team may help their following, but until Walleye angling has some charactors, and promotes them, like Bass fishing does, well, I don't see mentioning teams making that big of a difference. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The 'average fan' is the person checking in here and elsewhere on the web looking for news and info of the day. They won't post here, for any one of a number of reasons. They will be influenced by what they read; count on it. The front page with Jesse's image on it means he will acquire new 'fans', but what is he REALLY known for? Riding the Bull....and now he won that event in that town. That's what it's all about. he stepped out and did something different, and the media picked up on it.
Teams are not a bad thing, nor are they a good thing, but the concept can and should be marketed/publicized IF many of the top pros are associated with teams anyhow.
We just had this conversation with Ron Lindner Monday. We spoke about why BASS has Icons in the sport, and even though FLW pays out WAY more, the 'average' fan sometimes has trouble remembering who won the last big event. Why did some of the higher profile Pros leave BASS for FLW? Is it the payouts....or the perception that the top guys 'get all the press'? We talked about how despite all of this, the entire industry is in a state of flux not seen since the early days.
I believe building fans and a fan base is about the methodology used in creating household names, and marketing the very sport they live in by using that household name. It's the creation of nicknames, of image, of stature or lack thereof, it's...the sport. it's ESPN.
So NOW what? | |
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| Shep - 8/18/2010 11:29 AM
You want to build the fan base, you got to promote the individual anglers. Sure, the fact they are members of a certain team may help their following, but until Walleye angling has some charactors, and promotes them, like Bass fishing does, well, I don't see mentioning teams making that big of a difference.
Just said pretty much the exact same thing.
Yep, Jesse is a character, allright. So, too is Keith, and Gary, for sure Tommy Skarlis, Tom Keenan, and so goes the list. But until AIM formed, who was promoting the ANGLERS? FLW promoted FLW, Ranger Boats and the big payout. PWT promoted In-Fisherman Magazine. But they weren't promoting the anglers. At all.
Now you have AIM. For the Anglers, By the Anglers. They have a lot to learn, but I believe their pointed in the right direction. They could learn alot by going to the local stock car track, and see what promoting the DRIVERS does. Fans wear T-Shirts, have RaceCards, and seek out their favorite driver after the races in the pits for an autogragh, or just to get a close look at the car and driver. There, driver gives out cards, signs autograghs, gives out candy, or gum, and is there for everyone who wants to get up close and personal. Kids get to sit in the driver seat of the race car they just watched a while ago on the track. It's exciting for them. Not so at the Pro Tourneys.
Kids were pretty much ignored and bored, if you even saw them at a weigh in. This has changed with AIM, and now I see FLW has started the similar thing this year. That's great. But there can be a lot more. Name one Pro Waleye angler, that has a profile card. Like the RaceCards I posted years ago, and more recently, with a picture of the boat and angler on it, and stats, records, bio info, and list of sponsors, and maybe even teammates on the back. Name one. I can't.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for growing Pro Walleye Tourneys. But for Stacker to say I agree and suggest we keep doing the same thing? Hardly.
Edited by Shep 8/18/2010 4:25 PM
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| MWC has teams. So do several other tourneys.
Larry | |
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| Not sure what the big deal is?
While fishing as a co-angler in the AIM events, teams of pros sharing info and payouts is openly discussed. | |
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| Shep is starting to talk like RNT, Stacker understands the game will change now and Steve is finally thinkiing about how a "Team" Can be marketed........Yes I too believe that Teams openly discussed... WILL change peoples perception and frankly it might impact the amount of NEW participants coming to the show but will probably strengthen existing players if they can afford to keep playing the game!
I wonder if there might be a need for "team rules" finally... ? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Team rules already exist....but not in a framework that the general public would see.
For instance, for the team I fished with we took 20% of each individuals winnings and split them evenly among the four of us. This way it benefits each teammate to share the info, as one teammate might really be sticking them one day and the other cannot buy a bite.....and believe me, it happens!!
Also, I can recall spending a portion of my day defending an area where my partners were in the hunt for a win, warding off other competitors and not letting them get close to the bite.....a.k.a. beating off the tailpipers. I made a bunch of friends that day!!! My partners ended up second and fourth so for my day of, for the most part, giving up my tourney I received a little over $3,000.
Other rules are a product of a circuit's rules, such as allowed information sharing on the water between competitors. The FLW Tour allowed on wtaer communication for a year or two and we used this liberally. I recall driving right up to one of my partners boat and telling him "purple #5 blade, gold and purple beads with a one ounce inline weight back 40 behind the board" for one event. Hey, if the circuit allows it then go with it.
Edited by jerry 8/19/2010 9:09 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Team rules already exist....but not in a framework that the general public would see.
For instance, for the team I fished with we took 20% of each individuals winnings and split them evenly among the four of us. This way it benefits each teammate to share the info, as one teammate might really be sticking them one day and the other cannot buy a bite.....and believe me, it happens!!
These are not teams rules as set forth by the governing body of the event, but personal handshakes from friends on how it all works.
Shep, when you stated that the players need to go out and promote the sport more, you were correct, but you been saying that for 10 years. The same ol same ol, keep doing what you been doing and expect something to change mentality. This is not about 1 person now, its about a accepted way of playing the game. | |
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| "Hey, if the circuit allows it then go with it"
Interesting to say the least and perhaps part of the answer to the recent decline in participation as it relates to Walleye Tournaments. | |
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| Jasper,
The FLW did away with on the water communication for the 2007 season and beyond.
Robert Blosser | |
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| Jasper, I think a lot of people knew "teams" existed but not in the fashion openly being discussed now here.
To me and many I know, fishing is an individual sport. The "team" has always ment (at least to me) pro/co at the upper professional levels in one boat. And in other events it meant the team was your buddy in the same boat with you competing against other boats.
I quit fishing tournaments because of what we are talking about today. And the fact that I had to learn this along the way years ago. We are talking about the team of anglers banding together in multiple boats, sharing winnings and even writing contracts amoungst each other. Sharing information with their "local" buddies and guides to get the best advantage they can. EVEN GOING AS FAR AS PROTECTING SPOTS. This happened to me one time when what Jerry did, someone did to me in a 2 day event. A major disapointment for me, I don't remember who it was but it changed my perception of the game and was one of the reasons I no longer play. New TEAM rules need to be established so everyone knows this stuff happens, and they can make the decission to donate or participate! Major sponsors will not endorse a team if there is a chance the playing fiels isn't equal for all.......So for example, how many members can be on a team?
Good Luck
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | jerry - 8/19/2010 2:00 PM
Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question.
This would be why teams had to be acknowledged publicly. If you get in with a group you have body guards? wow. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I've seen this done on many different levels, and I can't say I agree with it, but I do understand why folks do it. I can't even tell you how many times I've prefished a Mississippi River event only to find one of the "Local Legends" best friends parked on a certain wing dam waiting for his buddy to show up. These are the same guys that send their wives/kids/parents/uncles neighbors etc... to buy every Willow Cat in town.
I had one of these guys stop and watch me fishing a dam a few years ago and proceed to mark waypoints on his GPS and call his buddy over. Wouldn't you guess it, his buddy who wasn't in the tournament was sitting there the next morning and didn't move until Mr. Big Shot showed up about 5 minutes later. They waved to their buddy said thank you and finished second off that very wing dam.
I dislike tailpipers too, but in multi day events your boat order is part of the game. The longer the whole team debate goes on, the less interested I am in high level tournaments. I have no problem with sharing a little info amongst friends but policing the rest of the field for your buddies takes it too far in my opinion.
I don't knock Jerry for what he did, he even admitted it helped him make money. But what if one of those guys that you blocked, prefished that spot but your buddies had a better number draw earlier in the event so they beat them there. You could be doing to them, the exact thing you're afraid they're doing to your team.
I think we're seeing a transition from testing yourself against the best, to testing the quality of your team. Also I think we're seeing instead of wanting to find new ways to beat the other guys, we see more people trying to figure out how to take something away from them.
Call it whatever you like, but it's changing. At least folks are admitting it now. I just don't like the thought of a young 22 year old mortgaging their future on tournaments without knowing what they're getting into. You can tell me they should do their own research, blah blah blah..... The fact of the matter is, if they at least know what they're up against they'll be able to make a better decision. All in all, I do agree that acknowledging it is a step in the right direction. | |
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| Whether it is right or wrong I will certainly leave that up to you folks. Mr. Blosser indicated that post 2007, FLW went away with sharing information. Again, whether that is wright or wrong I will defer that to everyone else. Personally, I just don't see how it would be rewarding. I sincerely plead this is taken as only a personal observation and nothing else. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | GNWC,
The first two days of this event there were three boats there: mine and my two partners boats. NOBODY else was near us. On day three at least 5 boats tried to get in there, as they were following my partner's boats. I was the first boat there that day and watched it all happen.
The examples you give are NOTHING SIMILAR to what I am speaking of. There wasn't anyone there for two days except us. We did not ask someone who was not in the tourney to go hold the spot for us......WE TOOK CARE OF IT OURSELVES!! I had two of these guys come up to me afterward and they weren't happy. Neither of them indicated that they were ever in this spot. I made it clear to both of them that I was pleased with what I did and that I would do it again if necessary. That was the end of discussion. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong, I'm just saying, I've seen the other side of it as well. It happens, there's no denying that. My whole point is, people take it too far and are willing to intentionally screw somebody else over to get ahead. The team aspect just makes it look worse. It may not be a result of teams, but when two or more boats are working together it looks bad.
As for tailpipers, we all know who they are and we all know they suck. Most of them are tailpipers because they can't do it on their own. That's a whole other issue.
I do appreciate folks stepping forward and bringing it to light. Like I said in my last post, as long as we know what really goes on, it helps in the decision making process. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | No problem GNWC.....we're on the same page. | |
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Location: Badgerland | jerry - 8/19/2010 5:36 PM
No problem GNWC.....we're on the same page.
"LIKE" | |
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| Does KVD belong to a team? | |
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| Jerry I'm not saying you did anything wrong either. Only that I didn't know of these things when I started and it turned me off. GNWC mentions many things about "possible team" members and that behavior is atrocious but happens in many lower level events and is nearly impossible to stop. All I am saying now is that I don't think the founding farthers/tournament directors ever considered drafting rules for this type of team before and that if it is to continue it needs to be addresed possibly with rules that level the playing field for everyone, including the 20 year old that mortgages his house to live his dream.
Good Luck
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Location: Manitowoc WI | yikes this topic has been beat over and over!
Edited by budsbud66 8/19/2010 9:40 PM
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| stacker - 8/19/2010 10:10 AM
Team rules already exist....but not in a framework that the general public would see.
For instance, for the team I fished with we took 20% of each individuals winnings and split them evenly among the four of us. This way it benefits each teammate to share the info, as one teammate might really be sticking them one day and the other cannot buy a bite.....and believe me, it happens!!
These are not teams rules as set forth by the governing body of the event, but personal handshakes from friends on how it all works.
Shep, when you stated that the players need to go out and promote the sport more, you were correct, but you been saying that for 10 years. The same ol same ol, keep doing what you been doing and expect something to change mentality. This is not about 1 person now, its about a accepted way of playing the game.
Not 10 years, but maybe 5. And I never, ever said just the anglers need to promote just themselves. Yep, same ol Stacker, interpretting something incorrectly to suit what he's saying. It's never been about one person, and I never, ever said it was.
Tyee comparing me to RNT. Now THAT is funny.
So Stacker, you are saying that a governing body, AIM for instance, should determine how teams operate? AIM is going tell jerry, his team can share only X% of their winnings. And how many members can make up a team? And what kind of boats they must all have, and motors, electronics, etc? How about who prefishes when and where?
Teams are not going to go away. And OK, maybe now that they are "officially"outed, maybe things will change. but I've said it before. The changes that are going to happen in pro walleye tourneys were going to happen, irregardless that Gary Parson, and Perry Good came out and mentioned the T word.
And one other thing. Anyone who thinks these guys are in it soley to satisfy their own competetive juices? Um, no. It's about the money. Always has been, always will be. To think otherwise is naive. The 20 yr old that mortgages his house to live that dream? He's a fool, and deserves what he gets.
As for the sharing of information? The FLW didn't regulate against sharing information overall. Just added the face to face "on the water verbal communication", in addition to the no cell phones, and radio communication. But that doesn't stop the teams from communicationg in other ways. Hand signals, body language, pulling a bait from the water, not showing up at pre-arranged times and places, drive bye's, etc.
I hope you are all correwct in believing that formally sanctioned teams are around the corner, and that is the key to growing the sport. But it isn't going to happen with out non-endemic sponsorship money, and lot's of promotion....by the tournament organizations, the individual anglers, and the sponsors to be. It will need massive traditional media coverage, not just that provided by an internet site or two.
Edited by Shep 8/20/2010 9:09 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK I am tired.
Jerry is out ther playing offensive tackle for his team, to make 3k in something that cost him close to that to play. Shep wants everything he has always wanted and thats for everyone to promote the sport and get the "Non-Endemics" involved. Of course as you all know I still need to take classes at night to know what I am reading. I have heard it so many times I know what it is going to say before I do
Shep say its all about the money. He is right but he does not know why he is right. Here is why, When lindners started this pro-am world it was to promote there in fisherman magazine and way of life and to make MONEY. The fisherman were mainly guides who would use a win to promote there business and make MONEY. The resat of the fisherman also used the wins to promote products and make MONEY.
Fellegy will tell ya teams been around from the start as I am sure he is right and he will also say the fisherman got screwed because the promoters never delivered to them on the promises made. Thats another fight you wont hear about till someone is on there death bed.
ENTER: FLW and astronomical pay days. Walleye guys are hicks, many never seen college, but they fish well. They know one thing, 300k 400k 100k is one hell of alot of money.
FLW Was the start of the organized crime. The posse lead the way. They did it well and took lots of cash that was on the table. Nothing against that crew, you played by the rules.
Sponsors, hmmmmm...... who won that event, shoot, I dont know, he is part of the posse, do we want to be a part of that, hmmm.... lets sit back and watch...... oh what did I see? There main sponsors are also the main sponsors of the FLW. Where would I fit in if I do not want to play with Walmart? also, Theres Jerry blocking guys so him and his get a piece of the kingdom, now it just gets greedier.
Like it or not, that is a very quick run down of the last 20 years, the next 20 can change. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | ........As for tailpipers, we all know who they are and we all know they suck. Most of them are tailpipers because they can't do it on their own. That's a whole other issue. I totally agree, that these are 2 separate issues. I hope we keep them separate. I will repeat what I have suggested years ago. Submit gps waypoints prior to take off. If you ‘happen to find” others number 1 spot during tournament hours too bad and too sad. ......“I don't think the founding farthers/tournament directors ever considered drafting rules for this type of team before and that if it is to continue it needs to be addressed possibly with rules that level the playing field for everyone, including the 20 year old that mortgages his house to live his dream.” LOL, many of the “founding fathers were on the same team. ..........And one other thing. Anyone who thinks these guys are in it soley to satisfy their own competitive juices? Um, no. It's about the money. Always has been, always will be. To think otherwise is naive. The 20 yr old that mortgages his house to live that dream? He's a fool, and deserves what he gets. Yes, it is about the money. Always has been however it is done to stimulate those competitive juices too. As far as the 20 year old comment, The NPAA and the tournaments themselves need to do a better job of educating the young od the sport. If they die financially the sport suffers too. ........FLW was the start of the organized crime. The posse lead the way. They did it well and took lots of cash that was on the table. Nothing against that crew, you played by the rules. That is a very negative statement followed by a disclaimer that you have nothing against them and they played by the rules. I for one do not believe that the FLW was the start of the organized crime. What happened was people took it very serious and read the rules as all “pro’s” should do. They asked questions and did things that the rules allowed that others did not think of. They have actually done more for the sport than most because of their “lawyering” of the rules. Many positive changes have occurred because of their questions, interpretations, and delivery. We do morph as a sport and they were a part of many rule interpretations that have been changed, questioned or qualified.
.............Sponsors, hmmmmm...... who won that event, shoot, I dont know, he is part of the posse, do we want to be a part of that, hmmm.... lets sit back and watch...... oh what did I see? There main sponsors are also the main sponsors of the FLW. Where would I fit in if I do not want to play with Walmart?
We all make decisions in business. Play by their rules or look elsewhere. Thankfully AIM allows you to make choices. ........also, There’s Jerry blocking guys so him and his get a piece of the kingdom, now it just gets greedier. Jerry did nothing wrong and I am glad that the tailpipers of the world had someone stand up to them. Many of us could tell horrendous stories of tailpiping especially when 300k to 400k are on the line. I have seen the posse be negatively impacted by the hounds that followed them to the Promised Land. And unfortunately, we are not just talking about a few. The only thing Jerry did wrong was include this antidote into the conversation. IMHO, it should be separated from the original conversation. .........So Stacker, you are saying that a governing body, AIM for instance, should determine how teams operate? AIM is going tell jerry, his team can share only X% of their winnings. And how many members can make up a team? And what kind of boats they must all have, and motors, electronics, etc? How about who prefishes when and where? Yes Shep, the organization can make rules on team participation if they choose. They can make more decisions than you aor I may want, need or desire. No, they can’t tell how to run/do some specific things behind closed doors. But they certainly cam change a the major make-up of team organization if they choose. I for one would be delighted to be a part of the organized Posse Team or the KP Team. The future will be interesting. If you respond (we always know Stacker does lol), I’m off for 5 days of fishing, Not ignoring you if you call me out.
Edited by Sunshine 8/20/2010 11:10 AM
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| Just curious..... Prior to 2007, in the FLW, was language written into the rules stating that you could not follow a competitor.... A.K.A. Tailpiping? | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Well ........................ Jerry shared a story so i will too. The short answer is that I know there was no rule in 2001. And as a "boater" in 2006 through 2008, I do not recall any specific language to tailpiping. Unfortunately i did not keep the rules from back then.
I can tell you a quick story from a situation that would be an hour conversation. It was 2001 on Green bay for the RCL (prior to FLW name change) Championship. $400,00 was at stake. The posse was on very big fish at the Green Island area. The team brought in 26 to 32 pounds of fish to the scales. There were no more than 7-8 boats in this area on day 1 (4 of the boats being from 1 team). I was a co-angler for this event and was doing cartwheels because I drew Tom Keenan for day 2. (I believe the day 1 leader). Tommy had left and I stuck around the weigh-in area. Much to my surprise, many (and I mean many) of the "Pro's were talking that they were heading out the promised land of Green Island to follow the leaders. I don't know how (but I speculate a co-angler spilled his guts) but they all knew the program and location. I called Tommy on the phone to report what i was hearing about the "tailpipers". His first reaction was NO WAY. I then preceded to tell him his whole program. I knew specific location, depth, lures and colors. Just by listening to the crowd. I prefer not to go into any great detail on the conversation(s) we had and with his team. I was with Tommy when he talked to Sonny Renolds the next morning. Tommy explained the situation. Sonny's only suggestion was to throw out a buoy. Rules stated that contestants had to stay a certain distance away from a competitor's buoy. Tommy explained that this would not work because he was trolling an area. Sonny's reply was to throw out 2 buoys. What I witnessed this day upset my stomach and mental health. I counted 40 boats on the spot. please believe me, I personally counted 40 boats. It was joke! I witnessed people cutting other people off (not a Jerry tactic but through stupidity). I witnessed boat so close together that they were getting their lines tangled together. At one point we watched to "Pro's" fighting what they thought was a big fish until they realized they were tangles with each other going in opposite directions. What should have been a great day with a great Pro and friend turned into a nightmare. We caught one fish before we gave up and went to the river to try and salvage the day. Not the fondness of memories about Tournament fishing.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Here you go sunshine.
Anyone who has fished a 2 day tourney can attest to this happening. It is not to say that its right or wrong. cabelas on green bay had this exact same thing go from 6 to 25 boats the second day and many of the NEW boats were people you know very well.
But that was not the question was it.
No, tailpiping has never been a rule. | |
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| You can't throw all anglers into a pile and say, thay all act this way. Jerry, I totally agree with what you did. There is a huge differnce between someone that has prefished the spot, and showing up on the second or third day of the tournament, and I will guarantee you the people fishing there will have known if they prefished that spot or not, compared to some joker that can't find fish on his own and is just moving in, knowing that the people fishing there are doing well. Enough on that. A perfect example is last year at AIM's championship at Winnie, everyone knew where Todd Rielly was fishing and they respected him enough to give him and a few others the sopt. I was lucky enough to fish with someone from that group of anglers, and on the way out he told me flat out, there are three other boats on the same area that have been fishing there, sure enough, there were three other boats there, (this was on the last day) soon a couple of other boats tried to sneek in there, havn't been there all week, but came flying right up to the spot, and it didn't take long for that boat to move off, because they soon realized he was not making any friends.
I am assuming that everyone on the site has met and talked to Gary Parsons, because his name seems to always come up. I have had the priviledge to meet Gary and have talked to him a couple of times, and in my opinion, he tells it like it is and most of you don't like it. He called you whiners out in Green Bay, if you think you are all good fisherman - "put your money up and give it a go". If you talk with Gary or Keith or most of the other pros, team or not, I don't believe it is entirely about the money (you have to already have money to play at this level) - yes for some it is - but these guys have a passion for the sport of walleye fishing - coming up with new inovations for each of us to use. And there is nothing wrong with a little compitition and bragging rights. Lets face it, how many of you have went out and bought some slow death hooks, or the many other products that have evolved from tournament fishing.
On the last day of the AIM tournaments, the pros tell there secrets to the audience so everyone listening can go out and tell you what they were catching thier fish on and even where they were. So are the 50+ fisherman all on the same team for sharing? Who cares if you are on a 2 person team or a 10 person team, you still need to make decisions on the water. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Johnny V - 8/20/2010 1:07 PM You can't throw all anglers into a pile and say, thay all act this way. I am assuming that everyone on the site has met and talked to Gary Parsons, because his name seems to always come up. I have had the priviledge to meet Gary and have talked to him a couple of times, and in my opinion, he tells it like it is and most of you don't like it. He called you whiners out in Green Bay, if you think you are all good fisherman - "put your money up and give it a go". hmmmmmmm............... Johnny V, I'm not sure who you are directing these statements to but I don't believe anyone is lumping all anglers together. We all know there are bad apples and more than we would hope for. I think you are the one lumping people together (the Gary quote). I'm not sure how well you know most of the people responding to this thread? I know many of them personally for quite a few years now. I assure you that they are NOT whiners AND they HAVE put their money where their mouth is. And they (we) have been doing it for a very long time. Not all at the highest level, but many of us. I think many responding have paid our dues long enough to be entitled to an opinion on the subject.
Yes, I know Gary and I believe i will ask him if he thinks I am a whiner the next time we meet. ROTFLMAO After being a part of and listening to several conversations (and email) about tournament fishing with Gary and Kieth I believe we agree about most of this content.
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| "A perfect example is last year at AIM's championship at Winnie, everyone knew where Todd Rielly was fishing and they respected him enough to give him and a few others the sopt. I was lucky enough to fish with someone from that group of anglers, and on the way out he told me flat out, there are three other boats on the same area that have been fishing there, sure enough, there were three other boats there, (this was on the last day) soon a couple of other boats tried to sneek in there, havn't been there all week, but came flying right up to the spot, and it didn't take long for that boat to move off, because they soon realized he was not making any friends.
Hummmm. So your third day experience gave you a perception based on the little bit you saw and what someone told you. Was your pro on Todds team? Do you know or did you see who was orig. fishing that location,7,6,5,4,3,2 days before the tournamnet started? did you see who the one and only boat was that was on that spot on day one, his catch on day 2 when the "other" boat showed up? When everyone else drove right past him to fish greener pasturers. You only saw what happened on day three as he was forced to stay away from the others that came in and took HIS spot!.......your perception may be true to a point but you do not have the WHOLE story..I wasn't there like you were JonnyV but know a version too. The only difference is in who you claim is the joker!
a whole set of team rules could be drafted to address Tailpiping, and I'll stand by my earlier statement that you won't get endemnic sponsors until you address all this with tighter stricter rules....all major sports grow because they adopt new rules EVERY year to squash unwanted behavior or safety concerns.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/20/2010 2:54 PM
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| It would appear most of the individuals posting on this thread believe that "Tailpiping" is poor etiquette and a behavior that is frowned upon. On the other hand, fishing a tournament under the "Team Concept" is deemed as an acceptable practice. It would seem to me that the "Hey, if the circuit allows it then go for it" mentality is awfully flexible and convenient. Bottom line, a lot of ambiguity to those that are entertaining the notion of jumping into competitive fishing.
This is not directed towards anyone whatsoever, rather an observation of how tournaments are perceived. There are a lot of good people out there and anglers that are masterful at their craft. It is refreshing to witness so many people that have such a deep passion for a sport and truly desire the arena of tournament fishing to flourish. I as one concur that the more information put out there, the better chance this sport will have in gaining momentum. I applaud all of you for your insight and conviction. If my comments seem mordacious or off topic, it is simply a slip of the tongue and not of the heart. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Jasper - 8/20/2010 3:01 PM It would appear most of the individuals posting on this thread believe that "Tailpiping" is poor etiquette and a behavior that is frowned upon. On the other hand, fishing a tournament under the "Team Concept" is deemed as an acceptable practice. It would seem to me that the "Hey, if the circuit allows it then go for it" mentality is awfully flexible and convenient. Bottom line, a lot of ambiguity to those that are entertaining the notion of jumping into competitive fishing. Jasper: I will not speak for the others but YES, I believe that the team concept is acceptable and that tailpipers in all forms are the scum of the earth lol The team concept was born out of necessity and survival. Let's face it, it is an expensive sport right now to play in. Sharing expenses and cash rewards came out of trying to stay in the game long enough to be rewarded later w/ sponsorship and acknowledgment. It is also near impossible to dissect a body of water like Green Bay without help from others. The idea of sharing the purse came from the notion that if you had more to gain with the success of everyone you would work harder for everyone's interest and keep nothing to yourself. I have experienced tailpipers while fun fishing, guiding and during tournaments. My personal opinion is that it is unethical. I can not imagine how anyone gets real satisfaction cashing a check by following another boat to a spot and seeing what they are doing. I as an individual would have a hard time looking in the mirror. But that is just me and one man's opinion. I believe that tailpiping is not addressed in rules because it is impossible to prove. One man's word against another. That is why I suggest the recording of waypoints prior to a competition. Is it a perfect answer, no. But it is the best I can come up with. Others will say that it will prevent them from scouting for fish during a tournament. again i say, everyone has the same opportunity to find fish prior to a tournament. And you can still search and find fish as long as there is not another tournament boat sitting on top of an area you would like to try.
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| Sunshine - 8/20/2010 3:29 PM
<The team concept was born out of necessity and survival. Let's face it, it is an expensive sport right now to play in. Sharing expenses and cash rewards came out of trying to stay in the game long enough to be rewarded later w/ sponsorship and acknowledgment. It is also near impossible to dissect a body of water like Green Bay without help from others. The idea of sharing the purse came from the notion that if you had more to gain with the success of everyone you would work harder for everyone's interest and keep nothing to yourself.</p><p>
This is where I disagree with you. I do not feel that the teams of today morphed into what they are because of necessity and survival. I feel greed has a huge part. I also think that there are some pro's that have quit the game totally because of the teams. In the past they talked but they hardly if ever worked with money and such. I know a group that started but it was fisty cuffs.
Tailpipers? I pre-fished 1/2 hour where you have been at for 2 days. I knew they were there but did not catch the size. Now I know they are there in size me and my "Mates" are coming. thats all 8 of us, STOP ME!! | |
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Location: Badgerland | I know your all waiting to see where I come down on all this, but we "me , myself, and I" cant agree to conclude a formal posistion at this time. pleez stand by...  | |
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| "Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question."
If I roll up on a spot innocently and find you doing that, well, someone is going home with a dented or sunken boat. And it won't be me! | |
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| Theres a cool special on cable called whale wars right now........lets just say boat dents sinereo is nothing compared to the bob barker trying to prevent the japanese mother ship. If a team mate is being payed to protect his spot you can bet he is going to do so "within the law" and more than likely you will wind up getting the fine before him!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| That's exactly what I think Jerry's behavior could degrade tourneys to....... Walleye Wars. LOL
Plenty of ways to ward off Jerrys without doing anything "illegal". Accidents do happen. Sometimes props sometimes get wrapped in a few hundred feet of line also. Ask the clowns who do what he does in the fall around here. LOL | |
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Location: Rhinelander | You obviously haven't fished many Pro/Am events. 'Protecting' a spot is VERY common. Doesn't happen much with the AIM Anglers, though.
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| Question though. Isn't interfering with or harassing an angler against the law in almost any state? It is here. And isn't it a DQ if you break the law during tourney hours? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Blah Blah Blah Blah.....sign your name here brave man, like others do, instead of talking tough with nothing to back it up with!!! LOL.......... | |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I've fished walleye tournaments from Montana to the Great Lakes and lots of places in between, including too many to count on Lake Winnebago, my "home lake". I'm a member of a team here at home, it's the only way to keep up with the Jones's. They'll never be able to stop people from working together.
As for tailpipers, excuse me while I throw up. I've had people crowd me, follow me and even watch me through binoculars. Some I've had serious words with, on and off the water. After a while you get to know who the serious tailpipers are and the word spreads pretty fast, jackasses.
I've fished Pro/Am tourneys on both sides and couldn't believe some of the unethical things I saw that were done by maybe 2% of the pros. I've also had amateurs in my boat who were willing to share what they did the day before. I turned one of them in at an In-Fisherman tourney because he didn't shut up.
I'm really surprised that people didn't know about teams in tourneys. It's been going on since the 80's and it won't stop. It's just another facet of tournament strategy. The sharing of prize money insures against liars and withholding info. Let the best angler win (the luckiest too).
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Location: Berlin | Well, this is getting fun!
Tailpipers...Jerry, you da man. We could put up literally hundreds of stories here about tailpipers.
I watched a good friend on day one fish an area all to himself, not another boat around. He was leading the event after that day. I took a video camera out the second day and taped over 50 boats in his spot (still have the footage). If I could have done something about it to help I would have, team or no team because nobody deserves that.
Spring Valley is the tailpiping capital of the world. I see it every year down there. Day two is pack day. Personally I think it is one of the biggest turn-offs for new guys getting in to the sport. Eliminate tailpiping and the sprow will grow. Much easier said then done. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 10:22 AM
Well, this is getting fun!
Tailpipers...Jerry, you da man. We could put up literally hundreds of stories here about tailpipers.
I watched a good friend on day one fish an area all to himself, not another boat around. He was leading the event after that day. I took a video camera out the second day and taped over 50 boats in his spot (still have the footage). If I could have done something about it to help I would have, team or no team because nobody deserves that.
Spring Valley is the tailpiping capital of the world. I see it every year down there. Day two is pack day. Personally I think it is one of the biggest turn-offs for new guys getting in to the sport. Eliminate tailpiping and the sprow will grow. Much easier said then done.
I dont think a new guy even knows what a tailpiper is. There is no school to attend. This is the first time many aspects of this game have been publicly revealed.
Shoot, before the internet the only way to learn was to go. Now, well they all enjoy tellin' everything.
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| Dale and others, In all your adventurers did you ever think your team had an advantage or disadvantage over another, because someone else had more man hours on the water, more members on a team, including friends or guides, bigger boats, or an unlimited budget to travel farther and find fish? Did your team constantly change members because of their ability to participate, share and/or profit for their participation? Did your "team" become close friends and teammates contributing for a cause? Did you have a good quarterback, offense and defense? Or was it just a driver and a $8/hour pit crew willing to work for bragging rights in their circle of friends.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Berlin | I new about them going into my first event (Spring Valley) but I was still floored when I saw it live in person. Nothing shocks me anymore but I do still get surprised now and then. | |
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Location: Berlin | tyee - 8/23/2010 10:33 AM
Dale and others, In all your adventurers did you ever think your team had an advantage or disadvantage over another, because someone else had more man hours on the water, more members on a team, including friends or guides, bigger boats, or an unlimited budget to travel farther and find fish? Did your team constantly change members because of their ability to participate, share and/or profit for their participation? Did your "team" become close friends and teammates contributing for a cause? Did you have a good quarterback, offense and defense? Or was it just a driver and a $8/hour pit crew willing to work for bragging rights in their circle of friends.
Good Luck
Tyee
My opinion is a "good" team has a definite advantage but those are few and far between.
"Bad" teams have almost no advantage and mayeb even a slight disadvantage. Fishing is so mental and when a guy gets screwed by a member of his "team" he is pretty much mentally done.
My partner and I got shafted real bad one time by members of our "team". I still have not let it go and have a hard time fishing by them in a tournament. Most of the time I just pick up and move to the next spot. Some guys take it even harder and quit the entire sport all together. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 10:41 AM
Some guys take it even harder and quit the entire sport all together.
Honestly, I think that is exactly what is happening. The stand up guys are quiting and the new guys are reading and the sponsors feel it and no one wants to play that game. | |
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Location: Berlin | I can tell you this, I will NEVER fish on a team again. Now add in my opinion on "good" teams and you can see where the problem for me lies. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich S - 8/23/2010 12:21 PM
I can tell you this, I will NEVER fish on a team again. Now add in my opinion on "good" teams and you can see where the problem for me lies.
Wow Rich, through the 3 pages you finally said it. Musta' stunned the crap out of them as well. It got quiiiieeettttt in here. | |
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Location: Berlin | The mistake I (we) made is that money was never shared. I don't care how close of a friend you are money can do strange things. Unless you are splitting the money you will never be sure you are getting all or accurate information.
SO now you decide to form a team and share money. How many guys/gals do you have complete confidence in the fishing abilities? Keep in mind you are splitting up to cover water so if they check a spot you better be confident in THEIR results. Now picture the tournament was won in an area they said was not going (and truly believed it). Will there be any hard feelings? How about one member can't get enough time off from work and miss a couple days of prefishing. Do they still get an equal cut?? The scenarios are endless that can and do destroy teams.
It is not easy and that is why I always give a lot of credit to the teams that can make it work. I for one started doing a lot better when I got confidence in myself and stopped relying on other people. My bad experience with teams has had a lot of benefits as well.
Edited by Rich S 8/23/2010 3:29 PM
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| Hence a great argument for a formal sponsored team to be created with formal team rules. Otherwise the team format needs to be squashed completely and get back to fishing as an individual sport. It's too bad walleys travel in schools, and schools of people to fish together to catch them.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| It's no wonder I don't get in more tournaments. I fish them to have fun,learn some things, and see how good I really am compared to everyone else. I do talk to friends and gather info before the tournament but not during. I don't think teams are a bad thing until it turns people into this Jerry guy. | |
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Location: Berlin | trim-it-up - 8/23/2010 4:30 PM
It's no wonder I don't get in more tournaments. I fish them to have fun,learn some things, and see how good I really am compared to everyone else. I do talk to friends and gather info before the tournament but not during. I don't think teams are a bad thing until it turns people into this Jerry guy.
Would you let friend get screwed by tailpipers? Keep in mind you watched this friend bust his hump for years to get into this position and now it is finally here and the tailpipers are taking over his spot. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Thanks Rich, Sunshine, and others who defended me.
I have a question: do those who oppose what I did think I acted on my own? Do you think I created this idea of defending my partners from tailpipers? I assure you this was not the first time a teammate fended off tailpipers from another teammate. Read some of the old In-fisherman accounts of the early MWC days involving McClelland and Roach...it's there for all to see if you find it.
I really do not think most of the people on this board have a clue of what I speak of. I do not understand why people would have a problem with what I did and what I would do again. I realize others are welcome to voice their opinion, but given the circumstances, if I am your team member, if we share money, and their is a threat to someone coming in and screwing up your chance to win $100,000 such as the case in my situation, I cannot see how they wouldn't react as I did, especially since my teammates were 100% behind me. I would think that, as your teammate, you would be happy to have someone on your side to do whatever it takes to help you win the tournament, as long as it's within the rules. Think about it!!!
Edited by jerry 8/23/2010 5:11 PM
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Location: Neenah, WI | I'm on your side Jerry. You did what you had to do, I would do the same or expect my team to do it for me.
Rich cited Spring Valley. WOW. Now that's where the old MWC thing came from: Most Will Crowd. Been there and fought them off. Especially that sand spit under the Lincoln Bridge. I lost my voice there one day a few years ago. I thunk the crowders got my point. | |
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| It doesn't matter how long ago tailpiping and holding locations for other anglers have occured, both angler types are a load of crap! It takes away from the authenticity of how great these guilty anglers really are. Anglers who don't tailpipe and hold locations for others, rock in the public's eye!
Larry | |
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| I'm not saying its wrong to defend or help your partners,I'm just saying if it leads to fighting or damaging someones boat I would have to ask myself if its worth the stress. Dale and I had a bet over a beer for Otter street and I won. The fun thing was he bought me the beer when it was free beer anyway. I don't think he would chase me off his spot just to win a beer bet. You throw $100,000 in that bet and and people act a little crazy if you ask me. Just for the record I have allot of respect for Dale and would not move in on him in the first place. | |
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| Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney. | |
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Location: Berlin | Holding a spot for somebody and fending off tailpipers are two totally different situations.
P.S. I have a lot of respect for Dale also. I did not know anyone (not one) person in the tournament world when I started. Dale and Ginny were some of the first friends I made. | |
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Location: Berlin | Boat Dents - 8/23/2010 6:15 PM
Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney.
In your example you are totally correct, the spot is fair game. How would you like to have been the first boat out on day one, caught all your fish from one spot that you shared with two other boats and ended up leading the tournament after day 1. Now you are the last boat out on day 2 and when you get to the spot there are 100 boats on it.
In over half of the team tournaments I have fished the leaders after day 1 usually are by themselves or in a small pack of boats (10 or less). It never fails that the second day half the field or more start out magically on that spot. Some of it is innocent but most are not.
My buddy literally had his spot to himself on day one but it was a high traffic spot so many people saw him there. Day two you could walk across all the boats there were so many. THOSE are tailpipers.
Don't even get me started on net droppers.
I am not implying that I am perfect and I have made my share of mistakes. I made one this year during the Merc that I feel horrible about and did everything I could to make it right. It is really hard sometimes to not get caught up in the moment.
Edited by Rich S 8/23/2010 6:41 PM
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| Rich S - 8/23/2010 6:27 PM
Boat Dents - 8/23/2010 6:15 PM
Someone please define a tail piper to me. How can someone be tail piping if you're off fishing your other two or three spots first and not even there? If you're not there or leave, tooooooo bad! The spot is open game. You can't claim 5 or 6 spots as "yours". If that spot was so damn good, why aren't they fishing it? I can see a team mate occupying a spot and FISHING it in a rotation, but to just sit there as a nothing but a guard and cut people off, etc takes it a bit too far and should be a DQ for violating state laws during the tourney.
In your example you are totally correct, the spot is fair game. How would you like to have been the first boat out on day one, caught all your fish from one spot that you shared with two other boats and ended up leading the tournament after day 1. Now you are the last boat out on day 2 and when you get to the spot there are 100 boats on it.
In over half of the team tournaments I have fished the leaders after day 1 usually are by themselves or in a small pack of boats (10 or less ). It never fails that the second day half the field or more start out magically on that spot. Some of it is innocent but most are not.
My buddy literally had his spot to himself on day one but it was a high traffic spot so many people saw him there. Day two you could walk across all the boats there were so many. THOSE are tailpipers.
Don't even get me started on net droppers.
I am not implying that I am perfect and I have made my share of mistakes. I made one this year during the Merc that I feel horrible about and did everything I could to make it right. It is really hard sometimes to not get caught up in the moment.
In Jerry's situation, I think it's still wrong to be so agressive to the point of cutting people off and such. Your only role out there, being an enforcer, not even fishing. THAT takes teams in individual tournament WAY too far. Tailpiping in the sense you mentioned is part of the game. Always has been, and always will be. All you can legally do is bitch. Trust me, I'd LOVE to see a reality TV show of Walleye Wars, where people pull the stuff Jerry did, and take it even to another level, but I don't want to see team/gang warware on the water on the current circuits.
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Location: Manitowoc, WI |
In Jerry's situation, I think it's still wrong to be so agressive to the point of cutting people off and such. Your only role out there, being an enforcer, not even fishing. THAT takes teams in individual tournament WAY too far. Tailpiping in the sense you mentioned is part of the game. Always has been, and always will be. All you can legally do is bitch. Trust me, I'd LOVE to see a reality TV show of Walleye Wars, where people pull the stuff Jerry did, and take it even to another level, but I don't want to see team/gang warware on the water on the current circuits.
ROFLMAO!!!!! | |
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| To much time battling warriors while on the water, then this new fishing magazine is for you. Walleye Wars!!! Features anglers against anglers for anglers and how they cope with stress while fighting for key positions while on the water. The uprising magazine will have such articles as "How to hold a team members spot while under duress", "What to do if a net actually chases after your boat", and "Keeping those pesky pipers off of your tail". So send your subscription fee of your top 10 favorite crankbaits to the Lurepresentation Foundation. Trust me, I will put those baits to good use.
Larry
CEO and Chairman of the Lurepresentation Foundation
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| Laugh. You've obviously only run up against wussys in that situation. I'm no seasoned tourney vet, but have been in that situation against a "Jerry" quite a few times in tourneys and in hot recreational spots. Especially if I have the legal right of way, I just turn my back and keep on a movin'. "Jerry" has moved EVERY single time.  Been a few close ones though.
Question for Jerry. What do you do if you're playing "defense" and an innocent recreational angler rolls into the area? Is it still game on and screw everyone for the $$$? | |
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| Still to much time battling warriors while on the water, then this new advanced fishing magazine is for you. Walleye Wars II!!! Features anglers against anglers for anglers and how they cope with stress while fighting for key positions while on the water. The uprising advanced magazine will have many articles such as "How to keep a Jerry off your covert spot", "What to do if problem tailpiper finds you", and "Waypoint secrets". So send your subscription fee of your other top 10 favorite crankbaits to the Lurepresentation Foundation. Trust me, I will put those baits to good use, even in your waters!
Larry
CEO and Chairman of the Lurepresentation Foundation
Edited by LurePresentation 8/23/2010 10:20 PM
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| Think we're on to something. All these newly discovered teams can pool some money together and buy entry spots for a couple of their own "Jerry's" to have on the team. Spots will be guarded, entries and payouts will go up, and there will be the same number of competitors actually competing | |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I do not and never will advocate the idea of someone "holding" a spot for a tournament angler. The spot under the Lincoln Bridge on the Illinois River at Spring Valley is a spit of sand that comes out from shore. We were fishing there in a MWC event several years ago in pretty stiff current. I couldn't focus on anything but running the bow mount and only fished with 1 rod while my wife was doing most of the catching from the back of the boat. People kept trying to crowd me off the spot and I started chewing some butt. Ginny would catch a few small fish and then a decent one. It really was a 1 boat spot. When it was time for us to leave and I let the boat slip off of there, you should have seen the chinese fire drill with 10 or so boats trying to get on there.
What gets my goat is like Rich said, if I was doing well on Sat. with only a few boats around and on Sun. I'm surrounded by 50 boats and can't fish effectively, I've been tailpiped and I'll darn sure let you know about it. Three years ago one boat from my team won Otter St. We intentionaly stayed about a mile away from him on Sun. I didn't want to pull a 25 incher in front of him and ruin his chances. They won and we drank their beer. Win win all around.
Edited by Dale 8/24/2010 5:45 AM
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| Shep - 8/18/2010 11:06 AM
You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best.
As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc.
As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule.
"After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS"
Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too.
Just for the records, the first formal, public "thank you" to team members that exposed the team concept, was at the PWT champioinship awards banquet in 1993. (per my weather-beaten memory) | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Guest - 8/24/2010 7:30 AM
Shep - 8/18/2010 11:06 AM
You think this is the first public mention that teams exist? Evidently, you haven't paid any attention to the comments made by the 2 leading money winners in Walleye tournament fishing. Comments about and thanking teammates were made, publically, made as far back as 2001 that I know of, and more than likely, even before that. To suggest that Gary Parsons and Perry Good were the first to openly mention they are members of teams is inaccurate at best.
As for any changes that will now be a result of these two mentioning teams? Uhm, no. This "revelation" will have absolutely no effect on the future success or failure of Pro Walleye Tourneys. Any changes on the horizon will happen regardless of teams, and are going to happen because of new marketing strategies, new exciting tourney venues, non-endemic sponsorship, a better economy(most important), new tourney formats and promotion, individual angler promotion, etc.
As to the co-anglers complaining their info was not used? Unlike FLW, AIM has the following rule.
"After the start of the pre-tournament Rules Meeting, AIM Co-Anglers are prohibited from sharing fishing information, including fishing spots, methods, or fishing tackle, with AIM Pro Anglers until the completion of the tournament. Violations will result in the disqualification of the Co-Angler and the Pro Angler who uses this information. NO EXCEPTIONS"
Prpbably lucky for them, the Pros didn't turn them in, eh? Besides, as a co, who cares if the pro does great or not? Except for having fun catching a lot of fish, and maybe learning a new presentation, or location, if the Pro isn't catching many fish, it's not like the Co's are competing against each other. And one can also learn from unsuccessful presentaion and locations, too.
Just for the records, the first formal, public "thank you" to team members that exposed the team concept, was at the PWT champioinship awards banquet in 1993. (per my weather-beaten memory )
I didn't see I wasn't logged in. I posted the previous "just for the records" info. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Boat dents - 8/21/2010 2:26 PM
"Allow me to explain the protecting of spots: in my example, the two guys I was protecting the spot for were in 2nd and 4th place of a 4 day event. This happened on DAY 3. Other guys on the circuit followed them to their small isolated spot, trying to move in on their bite. I ran them off and cut them off. It was not a case of guys headed to a spot and someone saving the spot for them. There is a big difference between the two. I was proud of what I did for my partners and if I was fishing a tournament and had little going for me while my partners were doing very well I'd do it again......no question."
If I roll up on a spot innocently and find you doing that, well, someone is going home with a dented or sunken boat. And it won't be me! :)
In a PWT event in the late 90's at Dubuque, I defended a small hump for my team mate on the final day. To a point where two big name anglers did bump into (one of them did several times before giving up) my boat broadside while I kicked the bowmount ahead to block them. The chatter that was included would have been a great show! The PWT regime got big complaints from those guys. BUT! In the end, I was found to be fine and just played the game tough. (I had an attorney in the boat at the time as a co-angler and he attended the meetings with PWT and said "Steve did nothing more than I would do every day in a court room"--end of discussion!.) | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Boat Dents,
Dude......you are out of your league when you speak. I am not doing any of this with a chip on my shoulder. You act as though this were the Wild West and the fastest gun was going to win a showdown. It's nothing like that. BTW.....the guys I stopped from moving in on my partners were definitely not wussies. In fact, one was considerably bigger than me. That didn't change a thing.
Steve Fellegy.....well done!!! I've read many of the things you've written over the years and enjoyed all of it.
Last part: if recreational boaters moved in I would wave to them and tell them to have a nice day. I do not think it's right to tell someone who is not in a tourney that they cannot fish a spot. Have you ever fished the Detroit River during a tourney and a good bite? Trenton Channel is a place where numerous tourneys have been won. It's a community hole and it's open to anyone. A spinner/crawler trolling bite is different, especially in a small spot like in my example, and where NOBODY ELSE WAS FOR PREFISH AND THE TOURNAMENT!!! The bite was focussed in 3-6 FOW in a 100-300 yard stretch.
BTW.....if you think I am alone in this, ask Tom Keenan or Dean Arnoldussen if they've ever been apart of something like this. I guarantee they have, because I've discussed it with them, and they agreed completely with my actions.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Jerry,
2 questions.
1- If I were fishing a rock and there were 2 boats on it on the first day and we finished the day in 8-10th place. Further away from the launch was the leaders rock they were fishing. After 4 hours they did not have a fish so it was time for them to start searching. Low and behold they stumble on Denny on this small small rock that fish will spoke easily off if there is to much pressure and low and behold, they see him net a hogger'. What do you think should be the protocol for this?
2- Why didn't you protect your team mates on the last day of that event? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | 1 - If Denny is smart he will put out a marker so the other guys cannot fish, per FLW rules.
2 - I was there on day 4 also. Other than a few MWS guys prefishing nearby there were no issues.
Edited by jerry 8/24/2010 9:34 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sorry, did not see you there, seen everyone else.
why should I have to put a marker bouy out on a trolling pass? It is the same length as the one you were protecting? I guess if your buddies were smart they could just put a marker bouy out as well, then you would not have to protect them. Is that right? You see where this is going.
I call foul. As long as its good for you its ok? If a bouy protects you then no one should ever have to whine about it.
Back to the question, why should they be able to stop ANYWHERE THERE IS ANOTHER BOAT? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Denny,
As I read your example I assumed you were anchored, parked in a spot, slip bobbering a rock. That is why I answered it the way I did.
I'll give you a case in point:
2004 PWT at Bay de Noc. Danny P., Big Dan, Schuette and I are all in the top 10 after the first day. Most everyone knew where we were fishing. A lot is at stake: trip to the Championship, Angler of the Year, etc. Mike Gofron comes to me before the second day and shows me on his GPS where he's thinking about trying. He asks if this is where we are fishing. I tell him yes, because it was the exact spot. He thanks me for being honest with him and lets me know he will not move in on us. I tell him it is a large, long pass and he's welcome to try it if he wants. Not 10 minutes later the late great Gary Gray and I have the same conversation with the same results. That is how it's supposed to work: honor another tournament pros spot. Now, think to what happened to the Posse in 2001 on the Bay.......6 boats on a spot on day one and 50 or more on day two. Is it right?
Now.....back to your question. If you have no problem with other guys fishing your spot then it is fine. I think they guys who watched you catch a hog should at least ask you if you mind them pulling a pass or two in this area......just my opinion. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK So, since we have many eyes reading this and protocol could be established right now, what is the answer to this....
....you come up on me during a trolling pass and holler out to me as you are driving over fish I have yet to get my boards and baits to, to see if you can fish there. NOTE: That move right there would be ballsey enough in its self, BUT>>>>I state no, i do not want you here, and you say....what? YOU then think to yourself, SELF, I was here in practice? I am the leader and the fish these guys are catching are the right ones to win. I am entitled to this spot as much as anyone.
As for the green island event, when you offer a totally horrifying amount of cash to guys who did not have to QUALIFY for a championship for 1500 buck entry fee, its a gloves off anything goes event and you know that very well. That is where the change of the face of tourney fishing happened.
OH By the way, the guys who watched me pull a hog should not even ask and should not fish. If they are all about not tailpiping then that ends it. Otherwise its tailpiping. many variations to that word.
Edited by stacker 8/24/2010 11:28 AM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Denny,
Since you are answering for me and not allowing me a response in the first situation I guess I am out of this.
I agree that the guys who happened upon you should not fish. I only offered my answer as a possible solution. Either way works for me.
I think I've given enough to this thread.
Jerry.....OUT! | |
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| Tyee, as a matter of fact I was fishing out on Winnie all week, and was even able to prefish with a pro for four days, we went by Riley and a couple other boats (same ones as in the tournament) prefishing and the pro I was fishing with said, what would they be fishing there? He never once mentioned moving over there to check it out. back at the Resort, he had mentioned what we saw, a few other pros said, Riley must be on to something, and left it at that. Its called ethics.
Jerry, I do not know you, but I am in total agreement with what you are saying. It comes down to using good judgement on the water.
Stacker (I don't know you either) on the other hand, anyone can throw out a bunch of senerios and say "what would you do"? Bottom line is if you think to yourself, I shouldn't be doing this or this could tick the other guy off, you shouldn't be doing it.
Maybe I am wrong to think the satisfaction of walleye fishing is to find them and to find out what they are biting on for the day. I love tournament fishing as all you do, and sure it would be nice to cash a few mor checks, but not at the expense of my reputaion as an angler. Not having a clue and moving in on someone elses "spot" just because they are doing well or you witness them catching fish is wrong in anybodies book, and if you do not agree with that, you too are unethical. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Just jogging my weather-beaten memory....
In the '94 PWT finals , 2 of us were fishing a rock hump and in the top 3 after the first day. Day 2 brought several attempts to fish the spot by others. The 2 of us there were NOT formal team mates but knew each had pre-fished the spot and knew it well. Neither was following each other and we agreed we both had a right to be there on day one. So--all went fine the first day as we rigged within ten yards of each other all day. As a boat would make attempts to move in on us the 2nd day...we backed up our boats (both big tillers were hovering as we rigged) wide open right at the intruders--chasing them off and sending the clear message!
Here's the deal. Be it NASCAR, the NFL or a major league pitcher throwing high and inside.....if it's within the rules...you play as tough and as hard as you can to win. Mean,not so nice or whatever...means nothing. It's ALL about winning. If you can handle that or think it should be anything but that...don't play with the big boys. If you knew what goes on in and around the race tracks or on and off the fields---you would agree. It ain't a nice world sometimes. It's business as usual in the real world. Fishing or not!!
Look for sympathy in the dictionary, as it's the only place you'll find it from me, if I am competing against you, right between the words sh*t and syphilis.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/24/2010 1:40 PM
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Location: Berlin | My reputation means a whole lot more to me then winning. If I have to push the ethical envelope in order to win I won't play. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Rich S - 8/24/2010 2:11 PM
My reputation means a whole lot more to me then winning. If I have to push the ethical envelope in order to win I won't play.
And I surely respect that! I was just pointing out how the so called nice guys usually think in the process of winning. In the real world.....at the highest levels of any competition. That said...one can play tough and mean and still have a good reputation. I can name many that do. In ALL sports. That's how winners win consistently. Like it or not!
And by the way--an edit from my previous posting--I meant to use the word "can't", NOT "can" in this sentence....."If you can handle that or think it should be anything but that...don't play with the big boys".
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/24/2010 2:38 PM
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Location: Berlin | "if it's within the rules...you play as tough and as hard as you can to win. Mean,not so nice or whatever...means nothing. It's ALL about winning."-Steve F
I am sure you did not mean it this way but this could be taken as you condone tailpiping, net dropping etc.
Trust me, I am no pushover. You try to move in on me in my spot and crowd me you will find out that it is not going to happen but I sure in the heck will NOT do "anything it takes" to win. Even if it is within the rules.
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| Okay Tuff Guys, what is net dropping? Sounds like cheating. | |
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Location: Berlin | Tuff guys huh, I will give you Tuff guys...
Net dropping is when you are driving to your next spot when on the way you see a net and suddenly say to yourself "This might be a good spot to try".
I put it right up there with guys looking in you boat right after the tournament to see what color jigs you were using...
Edited by Rich S 8/24/2010 3:09 PM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Rich S - 8/24/2010 2:47 PM
"if it's within the rules...you play as tough and as hard as you can to win. Mean,not so nice or whatever...means nothing. It's ALL about winning."-Steve F
quote: I am sure you did not mean it this way but this could be taken as you condone tailpiping, net dropping etc.
Trust me, I am no pushover. You try to move in on me in my spot and crowd me you will find out that it is not going to happen but I sure in the heck will NOT do "anything it takes" to win. Even if it is within the rules. end quote
Believe me, I am old school and don't like any of it. BUT!! I also realize, to be a winner, sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do--IF you want to get to the top.
Just like I hate what it takes to market major league sports. But if we don't market the good, the bad and the ugly parts of Pro fishing, it will never grow. In fact, a good battle on the water and then after the event, on camera would serve our sport well! I don't have to like it ....but I have to accept it or not play the game.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/24/2010 3:42 PM
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Location: Lincolnshire, IL | Rich S - 8/24/2010 4:08 PM
I put it right up there with guys looking in you boat right after the tournament to see what color jigs you were using... ;)
OK, what is a jig? | |
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Location: Berlin | A jig is a worthless bait that pipe dreamers believe you can win tournaments with. That rumor has been busted and we know now you must use a crankbait if you plan on making any money. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Rich S - 8/24/2010 4:57 PM
A jig is a worthless bait that pipe dreamers believe you can win tournaments with. That rumor has been busted and we know now you must use a crankbait if you plan on making any money.
I roomed with Seelhoff for 10 PWT seasons. He tried to drill that into my head. Being hard-headed, I finally agreed with him in the 12th year. Now I'm too lazy to use livebait.
Now, am I a form of tail-piper you'aaallll talk about, if I copied his techniques? LOL
If so, every dang one of you that use long leaders with various forms of livebait rigs, are too!! You'aaalll tail-piped me!! So there....now I'm outta here on this thread--unless you force me to bite my lip too hard with future comments on this.LOL | |
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| It was a beautiful first day of the Wild Wild Walleye Tournament. The way-point Jerry just entered was with great joy, for a large basket of fish were currently swimming within the livewell. The ultimate spot proved itself once again, for many limits have been taken from beneath its warm stained waters. Unfortunately, this limit of fish came with a dark side; for danger was lurking! Near the shadowy shoreline, was Stacker, ever inching his way towards the waypoint where no Drop-n-Stay has gone before. Luckily for Jerry he noticed the undercover walleye boat, with all its new applied skull and crossbones wrap and immediately started reading all articles in the latest Walleye Wars fishing magazine, for his wondrous way-point must be protected. Collision was certainly to occur; until an angler on the northwest side, spied the freshly wrapped boat and immediately deployed his boat too. This Viking was currently hunting Dented Boat, but getting between Stacker and Jerry must be dealt with first. As the three captains closed, the game was on! One zigged and the other zagged as all three nearly collided with each other. The spot was almost lost to the intruder but Walleye Wars saved the day. Remember, the next time your spot is in jeopardy, as you send your 10 very best crankbaits to the Lurepresentation Foundation.
Larry
CEO of the Lurepresentation Foundation
Edited by LurePresentation 8/24/2010 6:58 PM
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Location: Berlin | lol, bored? | |
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| The names in this highly classified tail were changed to protect the innocent. Enjoy! | |
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Location: Neenah, WI | Steve, a long leader with some sort of live bait? What an interesting concept. I'll just bet that'll work in certain places. I'll have to give it a try sometime. | |
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| ya but....dale woyms don't wok well unwes u bend da hook a bit and make em spin | |
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| Rich S - 8/24/2010 3:08 PM I put it right up there with guys looking in you boat right after the tournament to see what color jigs you were using... ;) That is why I always throw all my gear overboard before heading to the weigh in. (It's OK, because I fish on a team, so we make lots of money.) | |
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| Gotcha, 'nother form of tailpiping.
Reminds me of a WWA back in da day. Chad Carroll and I got plenty of bites on our net fakes. hahaha | |
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Location: Orland Park, IL | No tailpipers here. MWC at the dam spring valley
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The old saying whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Make this rule and see who takes advantage of it.
If the leaders want a spot to themselfs on the last day of competition only, then they can have the right to the spot. If anyone else has GPS tracks that prove they were there as well, they may play there again as well. BUT, if any of them leave that spot they may not fish anywhere else. If they think the winning fish are there, they can win. | |
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| Come on Stacker...you can do better than that..........these are schooling fish.
Seems this has turned into a different thread....tailpiping or teams? Or just another way to get around a bouy rule? I guess if there are teams it's easier to justify your tailpiping. Your team is so LARGE someone on it MUST have prefished it for you before huh! Therefore you have every right to crowd in on someone,,,,now I get it.
Hummmmmmmmmm...
I can see a new show already...who wants to watch a classic when they can watch Walleye Warriors.
Good Luck
Tyee
Jayman.... net raising.....lol.... Part of the game plan or were you just trying to make new friends? jk | |
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| Rich...gotta love the jig chasers, whats even better are the out of towners that wait down the road from the baitshop. They wait for the guides to pick up their clients and follow them to the hot lake!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| We netted a perch did high fives and got some company, we later netted a big ball of weeds did high fives and got more company.
The bite sucked, if memory serves me correctly there were 6 fish caught out of 36 boats. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | My favorite net chasing incident:
A well known pro from the Saginaw Bay area had many issues in a 2-3 year period with net chasers and tailpipers. After the first day of a local tourney he was in first place. On day two, he devised a plan to get the chasers and followers off his bite. He went to a spot that he knew was full of northern pike. On this first pass through the area he put a 6-8 lb pike in the boat, with many boats in his wake and other arriving on the spot. He and his partner whooped it up and exchanged high five and back slaps, celebrating the first "hog" of the day while holding the net high enough for everyone to see. They continued to troll in a direction away from the crowd and, while staying low, they reeled in all their lines. Once they were 300-400 yards from the followers they fired up the big motor, put it on plane, and left the area. Nobody got their equipment in fast enough to follow them. They doubled the weight of their nearest competitor on their way to the win.
Fast forward to an RCL qualifier in 2002 on Saginaw Bay. I draw this particular guy as my partner on Day 1. We proceeded to pound the big eyes, with around 30 lbs for 5 fish by 9 am. We caught them all on Tots. Since this was a qualifier and the weights went to zero after Day 2 we knew we had plenty to qualify. He made sure he made the rounds to EVERY community hole on the Bay, as we put an easy 125 miles on the boat that day, making sure to talk with at least 1-2 competitors in each spot so it was possible we got this big limit there. The last thing he did was genius: since our bite was all on cranks he made sure to put Pa's spinners on every line. We barely wet a line after the first spot. He also had a bag of crawler dirt in the boat and we made sure to rub some on our shirts, hats, legs, and grind it into our hands!!! When we got up on the stage he made sure to talk about how Jerry did a great job baiting each spinner with crawlers and how it would take an hour or two to clean the boat up from all the craler dirt in it!!! I will never forget that one!!
Edited by jerry 8/25/2010 12:02 PM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "As a boat would make attempts to move in on us the 2nd day...we backed up our boats (both big tillers were hovering as we rigged) wide open right at the intruders--chasing them off and sending the clear message! "
I know I am going to regret this, but.... what you did there was wrong. Period. IMHO, you be DQ'ed from a tournament for behaving like that. Behave like that around me, and I will call the authorites and attempt to get you arrested.
I don't like it either, but there is NOTHING in the tournament rules that makes tail-piping illegal. HOWEVER, operating your boat in a manner that is unsafe clearly is against state law and as such, should get you booted from the tournament for behaving so.
I would NEVER intentionally crowd someone in an area that I did not pre-fish and I would NEVER follow an event leader to a spot if I had pre-fished it or not. That said, if I'm in the middle of the pack and the spot I choose to fish on day two happens to be the same one as the leaders, TOO BAD, I'm fishing there. I typically don't pay a lot of attention to other boats, so the likelyhood that I would even be able to recognize a boat in contention is pretty small.
Likewise, if I got released late on Day 1 of an event and wanted to fish a small one or two boat spot but couldn't because someone beat me there I have EVERY right to try to beat them there on day two. Boat number doesn't provide sqatters rights to spots we both pre-fished.
Brad Bahls, Internet Tuff-guy
Team "Not a Team Player"
Team "Jello Pudding"
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Location: Orland Park, IL | What an entertaining thread. I love it.
Team Gree-zee chicke | |
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| I agree with a lot of what Brad said. I would also submit the following:
- Just because YOU didn't see me prefish the spot doesn't mean I didn't.
- We all have spots we don't NEED to prefish. In some conditions, we know the fish will be there. So I may not have GPS tracks on a spot, but I may have fished it enough in the past to know it will produce. If I happen to be boat #1 and get to it first, I don't care if you sat on it 24-7 the three days before the tournament. | |
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| Probably sacrilegious on this site but Gary Gray and his Oshkosh posse were responsible for my much of my loss of interest in tournament fishing in the late 90's/early 00's. He would have a group of boats circling a spot like a war party of Indians circling a group of prairie schooners in the old western movies..... You couldn't get within 200 yards without one of his henchmen fending you off.... | |
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| Fishing "Memories" should be illegal in a multi-day tourney! | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | You CANNOT WIN by fishing memories anyhow, can you? | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Mark Komo - 8/26/2010 6:59 AM
What an entertaining thread. I love it.
Team Gree-zee chicke
Mr. Komo is RIGHT ON!!
Most popular threads on the site (all sites) are ALWAYS about anything but the actual fishing and who won the tourney, how he did win and where he won. What kind of boat? What kind of motor and graph? WHO CARES!!!!!! Can you imagine what would happen if the event/sport marketing depts. focused on the human interest element of the event and the sport(like some of this thread did)? How fun could it be, to be fan , to know ALL the good, the bad and the ugly related to the anglers, the event and circuit itself? Just like all other major league sports are covered on Sports Center? LOL
Anybody listening......to the likes of Mark Komo and potential fans that really don't care about the actual game itself, but instead the REAL elements fans interests are at?.
I think competitive fishing should TAIL PIPE major league sports marketing!!!!!!! In other words...which angler has gone through a hellish divorce lately? The stories never end......unless they're boring like "what lb. test was used". "color of spinner blade to win"? "GPS tracking"? WHO CARES!!! Not many compared to the potential fans that want to hear about how Riley's promise to get married last fall (if he ever won the championship) turned out. But then...as in the past 25 years of marketing failure....THAT story was brushed aside.
Mr. Komo got me off topic...or did he? LOL
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Location: Orland Park, IL | Sorry about that. Its Team Gree-zee Chicken. I left off the N.
Its like dock chatter more than anything. See thats what makes it interesting, we did play the game (at least a little bit), so really not new at all. I can't say I have heard one thing that surprises me. Its still fun!
Nobody fishes memories, especially on the illinois river! | |
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| Since most everyone seems to keep playing a broken record on the tailpiping/net chasing stuff; that also includes my warped fishing magazine crap, lets name all the best stuff in tournament fishing. My best stuff would be the adrenaline rush!!!
Larry
Edited by LurePresentation 8/26/2010 10:52 PM
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Location: Neenah, WI | The best stuff? Getting together with old friends after a long winter. Going to new venues and trying to figure them out. I still remember St. Mary's River and breaking down those huge navigational charts into something more managable (thanks to Rick Grable). Sometimes the journey is fun, one year for Saginaw Bay a bunch of us took the ferry across Lake Michigan to Ludington and drove from there. Making some new friends, trying new presentations that we dreamed up during the winter. Every once in a while one of them worked. Don't forget the anticipation building before leaving home, checking and re-checking everything, then telling yourself to just take a deep breath and relax. There's two sides of the coin. Fishing the Pro side of these events can put an enormous amount of pressure on you. There is one well known Pro who used to throw up every morning.
Tailpiping,crowding, etc. are part of it all. If you don't stand up for yourself nobody else will.
Edited by Dale 8/27/2010 7:13 AM
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| "You CANNOT WIN by fishing memories anyhow, can you?"
What are you talking about? All my favorite spots start out with "this one time..." hahaha
I agree, Dale, you gotta stand up for yourself!
This one time I was fishing a hammer handle pike tourney. I had ran out of gas and I saw the tournament director who was also a competitor hoarding in on my spot, so I dug out my flare gun and fired a round at him.....warning shot across the bow, you know, so I go that going for me, which is nice. | |
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| HEY FELLOWS I POSTED A VERY INTRESTING AND AMUSING POST YESTERDAY. BUT NOBODYS FREIND MR WOR-HOLE , IS PLAYING GOD AND TOOK IT OF, THERE WAS NOTHING OFFENSIVE TO ANYONE IT WAS JUST PLAN FUNNY, YOU KNOW REALLY , THESE WEB SITES REALLY DON,T HELP THE FISHING INDUSTRIE,OR THE FISHERMAN, ALMOST ALL THE COMPANYS AVOID THIS LIKE A LEAD BALOON, THEY WANT NO PART OF THIS OR THESE CONVERSATIONS, THERE SMART. WELL I BET YOU HE WILL TAKE THIS OFF TO. ONE OF YOUR FOUNDING FATHERS OH BY THE WAY WHEN I SAY FOUNDING FATHERS I DONT MEAN ONLY 4 PEOPLE , THERE ARE ALOT MORE PEOPLE OUT HERE THAT STARTED THE FISHING TOURNEYS AND CRAZE, BUT DON'T GET THE CREDIT, | |
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Location: Rhinelander | OK, Jim, that is just rude. You took a couple shots in your post yesterday that were beyond our permissions, and as a result, your post was dusted; nothing personal. Just about everyone on this thread has suffered a deletion or two (ha! Some, may be more than two..), including me. Calling me names won't help your cause much. The 'industry' watches these posts with interest, by the way, so you are also incorrect there. I'm not sure what we did to you to garner all this hostility, but the obvious solution is for you to find somewhere else to be angry for awhile.
As far as the history of the sport, that's a subject JK, Thomas Allen (Thomas will interview the Lindners and JK), Ron Lindner and I will be covering this winter. All the way from Manion to present, with no revisionist history leaking into the mix. Interviews with the pioneers and innovators, Team and Pro/AM Anglers of note, tournament organizations, sponsors, promoters, and directors past and present. In fact, the pulse of the sport is being taken by WalleyeFIRST radio's series with Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen regularly, openly discussing topics you may see started right here. A new show featuring a young gun on the FLW Tour will be published when I get back from 'vacation' this week.
Can we get this one back on track a bit, gents? | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | sworrall - 8/27/2010 9:10 AM
OK, Jim, that is just rude. You took a couple shots in your post yesterday that were beyond our permissions, and as a result, your post was dusted; nothing personal. Just about everyone on this thread has suffered a deletion or two (ha! Some, may be more than two..), including me. Calling me names won't help your cause much. The 'industry' watches these posts with interest, by the way, so you are also incorrect there. I'm not sure what we did to you to garner all this hostility, but the obvious solution is for you to find somewhere else to be angry for awhile.
As far as the history of the sport, that's a subject JK, Thomas Allen (Thomas will interview the Lindners and JK), Ron Lindner and I will be covering this winter. All the way from Manion to present, with no revisionist history leaking into the mix. Interviews with the pioneers and innovators, Team and Pro/AM Anglers of note, tournament organizations, sponsors, promoters, and directors past and present. In fact, the pulse of the sport is being taken by WalleyeFIRST radio's series with Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen regularly, openly discussing topics you may see started right here. A new show featuring a young gun on the FLW Tour will be published when I get back from 'vacation' this week.
Can we get this one back on track a bit, gents?
The harsh reality, (nothing personal to any of them), but the names mentioned above, in the history of the game are out of touch with what it takes to market a major league sport--or create a major league sports fan. Proof is in the pudding! And so far, this year, as has been the case for the past 27 years, nothing has changed. Coverage has broadened in some cases but content of coverage is all of the same focus from the unsuccessful past. A new breed of marketing needs to be put in place or slight growth at best will happen down the road.
How competitive fishing operates now and in the past is laughable when scrutinized by major league sports marketing depts. and the writers/producers that cover it.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 12:10 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Steve,
How about you step up, grab a camera, and make it so. All you need to do is invest in a High tech website capable of doing what this one does, acquire the bandwidth and find a way to get a couple hundred thousand anglers to look in on it for news and information, grab about $12,000 worth of gear, learn how to use it, and hit the road to cover all the Pro events. Get other networks to carry your stuff. Find a way to pin down the Pros and ask them family, personal, or other questions ( and get an answer) and make that content relevant to the actual tournament coverage, which whether you like it or not, is core to covering an event; people still want to know the who, what, where, when, why, and how of the success of the top anglers in each event. Spend the extra 3 to 5 days extra during the prefish to get the 'color' and 'up close and personal' items you think will get the job done, end edit and produce those pieces so they don't come off as either 'cheaply' done, or worse...corny. Oh, another thing...get promotional partners and sponsors to step up and pay for it all and make a enough of a profit so you can continue this into the future.
It's Major League budgets that allow the huge productions that your examples of 'major league sports' coverage to be produced. Not one single tournament circuit out there has the budget for their entire existence Major League ball of any type has for one World Series game or one Super Bowl. Those examples have developed and evolved WITH radio and TV, over decades of existence, and are of interest to a much wider cross section of the world's average Joes and Josephines.
You obviously have not been listening to the WalleyeFIRST radio programs Ron and JK have been doing, they are talking about subjects that haven't been discussed and getting way more 'personal' with some of the top new anglers out there, and some of the salty old Pros. And you are, of course, perfectly within your element to be critical, but are off the edge saying the Lindners 'don't get it' without actually having that discussion as to what they would like to do...believe me, they do get it, and we've had that conversation recently. So do the AIM folks; what you see with the GPS trackers, live video from the water, 4 camera wirecast of the virtual weigh in, and more have never been done before, but this ain't network television or a cable reality show...the money just plain isn't there to DO what you suggest; in fact, the money wasn't there to do TV at ALL this year, for either circuit. In order for your 'out of the box' stuff to apply, there has to be a venue, budget to pay for it, and crew that matches the workload.
So reality is the sport has to grow within the boundaries the economy and budgets allow for. Sure, tie 'em in with festivals and the like and create interests off the water within the event...how about a rodeo and a Bull Riding Walleye Champ?
Repeatedly pointing fingers that no one else gets it won't make it so. No matter how great your ideas, they have to be within practical application. One more thing, network coverage of a sports hero's up close and personal stuff, the paparazzi and the independent reporters, it isn't done by the NFL or major league Baseball, it's done by the press and the networks. Those shows, interviews, and the like are offered as 'color pieces' before, if relevant...during, and after the game BY THE NETWORK who paid the NFL to carry that game and grab the huge advertising contracts that are the result or networks looking to get some eyeballs on thier content despite the fact they didn't carry the game.
But..... the fans are there....to watch the game. If what you are suggesting is going to be applied, we need to find a way to bring that game..on the water as it happens..into your home and the majority of all others across the world. Seems to me AIM is doing exactly that, constrained ONLY by the harsh reality of budgets.
So from one who's been on the other side of this coin since Manion, all it takes is huge money and ways to apply that money to acquiring a fan base... and huge money ain't there. So it will take the slow and painful growth and fallbacks due to the economy the sport has endured since the 70's, unless someone has a new mousetrap. Mr. Jacobs seemed to have one for awhile, but it was, after all the Pomp and Circumstance, another wood slab with a spring and some wire...just a better paying one...for awhile. We'll have to wait and see what the all new FLW offers next year, that guy never quits.
That said, BASS creates personalities, and plays on them (yet ESPN is selling BASS, not enough of a a money maker, I'd bet). Were trying at WalleyeFIRST, we really are, but it's not easy to get the Walleye guys to step up. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sooooo.... after days of deliberation and insight from a few old salts, whats the verdict? Can we use "Once was hidden is now publically exposed" with in the parameters to change the face of the game and draw in new fans? Can we use it to our advantage or will it be the stake in the heart of the beast? Can the promoters make a game of the teams? Or maybe they don't want to.
Edited by stacker 8/27/2010 3:29 PM
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| Stacker, You might be able to have a professional event like AIM with teams but I'll maintain that it should be an individual sport. If they establish "team rules" they might get more/new attention and have a better chance at large sponsor and marketing dollars. billions will be spent again next year.
The real problem doesn't lie at this professional level with Aim and Irwin (FLW) though (and now that its out there it will probably open some eyes)......There still needs to be a viable ladder like Bass has for those of us born without that silver spoon. There are a lot of great sticks that had 2 learn some of this the hard way (very evident in this thread alone) and if they had known of these ways around a rule when they started it probably wouldn't have left that bad taste in their mouth and either they would have found something else to complain about or they would still be playing!
Steve, I like your reply about the media, but Fellegy has a very valid point. How many of your "news stories" have individual IP Hits, your photos, Live coverage, what was once considered news worthy is now yesterdays news. etc. etc. Point being that bringing it into the home is nice but so outdated already. In this day and age that still isn't enough you need to make it live streaming real time. and offer more than just a camera shot of a guy on stage. It needs to be exciting, off the wall something EVERYONE will be talking about. talk to anyone and most (all teenagers today) get their news and current events from a social networking site......Go spend a day in a college commons area and you'll understand what I mean.
Good Luck
Tyee
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | LOL Same old answers and excuses.
The money is their IF the plan is created and the right people make the pitch. I, for one, am not in a position to make that pitch for various reasons. Nor am I or for that matter, anyone I know within the industry, presently, is the right pitchman.
Remember when I brought the stuff I speak of now, back in 1988, to the MWC, at a meeting/presentation I called at O'Hare? 10 NFL players had formed an LLC to build the new mouse trap you speak of. Way back then....and what happened? The MWC and the industry laughed and walked away. The production people, lawyers and the players rep were shocked at the blinders everyone had on then. And they were insulted, to say the least.
So--I won't debate with you here. But your excuse about lack of funding is the least of the issue. Getting all the key aspects of the sport to support, 100 percent, a new marketing culture, run by non-endemic people, is the problem that holds up the growth.
If you doubt me, sit down with a fortune 500 company rep that funds NASCAR or any of the major league sports. Sit down with the Sports Center people and ask what really is the issue with the lack of success in the BASS coverage! They will tell you, flat out, the fishing industry leaders do NOT want what it takes (the good the bad and the ugly) to be part of it. The amount of money you speak of needing, is nothing.......
22 years later, when the industry turned away from opportunity, nothing has changed. (I can't recall if you were at that meeting/presentation or not--I doubt it though) The attitudes are the same within the sport.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 4:26 PM
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| "But your excuse about lack of funding is the least of the issue. Getting all the key aspects of the sport to support, 100 percent, a new marketing culture, run by non-endemic people, is the problem that holds up the growth."
VERY VERY well said Steve and I couldn't agree more..
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Fellegy, TYee, sworrall
I want to hear your answer to this question only.
We need to grow competitive walleye fishing so it will benefit......... | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Wow. The difference between fishing as an angler/Pro and actually operating a circuit. Yes, I remember the NFL deal, but the reaction is not clear in the old memory at this point. The MWC was a different animal back then, not even in the same ball park as it is now from every perspective.
Both you and Tyee missed the fact the 'press' isn't a 'circuit'. There's your most important issue for what you seem to want.
Excuses? How about realities? Easy to sit on the sideline and criticize, harder to address the reality of the business and actually make it so.
What the heck are you talking about....immediate and live is not 'old news'. You are ON a social media site. We post everything of substance to Facebook by the way, and tweet it too. Look it up.
SF:
That is interesting; please offer what AIM and FLW should do that can be funded and how those funds wold be accessed. And PLEASE show us all how to get the money in the door to do what you suggest, if it's so simple to do. The amount of money is 'nothing'? That's interesting, how much would it cost to air a 1/2 hour AIM TV show on the Outdoor Channel? How much to shoot it and produce it? I already know the numbers and it isn't within reach and wouldn't be supported with today's budgets for the endemics and non endemics. Who IS that pitch man, and what IS the marketing plan that will bring millions into the sport? What would be the interest of the industry in the plan, if any? Believe me, I'm more than interested, and not a bit willing to let this go until we've done some back and forth...why not, a couple of old warriors discussing the ails of the sport?
I have a function to attend, more later.
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| I said my best stuff would be the adrenaline rush in tournament fishing. This comes from the rewards, compliments, and the personal satisfaction after dissecting a body of water, then bringing in a winning basket of fish to the scale.
Larry | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | quote:Both you and Tyee missed the fact the 'press' isn't a 'circuit'. There's your most important issue for what you seem to want. "
If the "circuits" would have been and are smart enough today...they'd make sure the press MAKES the circuit.
Fact is, that if press releases/writers covered, on a daily or weekly basis, YEAR'ROUND, the likes of the various debates within this thread, and were sent out since the Manion Outdoors circuit days, you'd have fans more than you ever could imagine. But instead...as the tilte to the thread says "once hidden" is STILL hidden for the most part.
I won't debate here anymore, because game changers are NOT on here to debate with me(they are too afraid and are "hidden"). That said, I have consistently, debated the same stuff with the game changers, every week, year 'round, including the past couple years, for 27 years. And will continue to do so until the modern day culture of competitive fishing marketing is created and becomes a way of life. What I've said here, the current and past game changers have already heard.....'nuff said by me....for now. More seeds have been sown. LOL
One more tidbit....you ask about money? If the current endemic sponsors of the two top circuits pooled $$ resources and hired a marketing company such as the likes that created WWA, they would NOT have to spend another dime down the road to advertise their products. Proof? When is the last time you saw Wilson, Rawlings and Spalding spending $$ on ads? Yet their sales flourish! Why? Because they allowed and still do, a marketing culture that creates NON-ATHLETIC FANS--that in the end, create enough consumers of grass roots levels, to support their companies.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 6:35 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | No way you make claims like that and get a free pass to walk off with nothing more than 'Because I said so' as an explanation. If you think Brunswick/Wal Mart don't invest in a PR/Ad agency firm and implement the marketing plan they design, you are mistaken. I doubt they'd pool money, and Brunswick is one company, so that's not a possibility either.
Bad example on the sporting goods, those particular brands rely on the Schools, little league, Babe Ruth, and High School ball, and the same goes for soccer and hockey; secondarily marketed to the young 'fans' of the sport which requires the equipment they sell. Last time I saw them advertise? This month. Look around, they are still advertising in circulars, buying space through price/advertising/merchandising agreements with the Wal Marts and K marts and Targets of the US, and they have TV ads as well. I get what you are saying, though.
Here's the bottom line. If you want change, the level you are at right here, right now is where it starts. Insulting us out of hand as a collective group, or seriously underestimating our numbers is a tactical error as bad or worse than any you claim the circuit leaders have made in the past. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Obviously they have the WRONG PR agency at FLW...so using that guidance is a mistake. Proof is in the pudding there.
You say--Bad example on the sporting goods, those particular brands rely on the Schools, little league, Babe Ruth, and High School ball, and the same goes for soccer and hockey; secondarily marketed to the young 'fans' of the sport which requires the equipment they sell.
I say those school kids and the like are first fans....then consumers! Why? Watch Sports Center.
"Insulting" you say? Recall I said "nothing personal" from the beginning.
Now it's bed time for me........with a parting thought.
"The way to become truly useful is to seek the best that other brains have
to offer. Use them to supplement your own, and be prepared to give credit to
them when they have helped." Harvey MacKay
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 7:48 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | All I know for sure is if your ideas actually have merit, we need to flesh them out here and now, and I'm challenging you to do so.
I mentioned Wal Mart and Brunswick as major sponsors answering your comment, not FLW.
'I won't debate here anymore, because game changers are NOT on here to debate with me(they are too afraid and are "hidden"). That said, I have consistently, debated the same stuff with the game changers, every week, year 'round, including the past couple years, for 27 years. And will continue to do so until the modern day culture of competitive fishing marketing is created and becomes a way of life. What I've said here, the current and past game changers have already heard.....'nuff said by me....for now. More seeds have been sown. LOL '
That's pretty condescending and actually rude to the 'game changers' out there, Steve. PLEASE drop the 'all you other idiots don't get it' stuff and teach us something; I get the frustration, but that don't make it so. I think you have some good, solid concepts to offer. If you have failed for 27 years to gain a proper audience or convince 'them' you are on to something, perhaps you need to look at your overall delivery methodology and style and use this network and others where debates like this are encouraged and kept civil to get your points aired carefully and fully and perhaps acquire a couple new influential folks as associates to your concepts. | |
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| FG, I didn't miss the point that "Press" is not a circuit. Actually I believe whole heartedy that the circuit will come and be developed by those large sponsors, the directors of past will be molded into what the sponors want to see to promote their product. AND the media/marketing will flourish when they realize the opportunitys these dollars present. BUT until the field is level you won't find a single sponsor willing to invest those marketing dollars needed to Grow.
Stacker, Rephrase your statement as a question...or did I just answer it?
those little league babe ruth and other groups you refer to are team sports , with very stringent team rules. Wilson, Rawlings, spalding? Are they spending large dollars on major pro sports figurers or investing heavily on marketing now? I haven't seen them? Which single sports figure do they invest heavily on? You see they don't and they don't for a reason. But they have much larger audience at a much younger age.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Essay question. No right or wrong answer, just see's where everyone is at with there agenda's. Why do you want to see it grow?
We need to grow competitive walleye fishing so it will benefit......... | |
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Location: Berlin | boat sales? :D | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Fishing in general. The sport has been losing participants steadily for years, and that is bad for this country. The out of doors are becoming a strange and dangerous appearing place for a large cross section of a couple generations, easy targets fr PETA and Finding Freaking Nemo.
In order to grow the sport and keep it viable and supported by our state and federal tax dollars, we need to bring more folks into fishing, and I've seen the connection work for 30 years.
Gotta comment:
'BUT until the field is level you won't find a single sponsor willing to invest those marketing dollars needed to Grow. '
What? There are multiple sponsors doing just that. Wal Mart re-upped with FLW...that's HUGE. Brunswick continues to support competitive angling, as does Ranger Boats, Evinrude, and many more companies. Toyota supports BASS and PAA big time. Maybe more potential promotional partners need to be properly introduced to the sport. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Hey Denny.
We've talked about this many times...the inside story that really isn't, the gossip that's really nothing more than anonymous crap slinging...OFM can do what we have discussed and do it right; is that what you think the fans really will want? Will taking that step without eliminating what we do now 'add' fans?
See the videos we shot at ICAST where some of the Final 12 talked about the hunt for the Angler of the Year and the chances of beating Skeet.
Stronger? More of same, but Walleye? | |
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| Steve I'm sorry but those sponsors are investing in the wrong people...there justmaking tourney directors more money and giving the players a avenjue to do what they love at their own cost. And. Fyi fishing is not shrinking as you say at least in wisconsin anyway. We went through this last year
Good luck tyee | |
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| Those videos are nice for existing fans that understood the hunt you speak of but did nothing to promote fishing and the joy of the sport much less be exciting or entertaining to those outside the sport. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Guest - 8/28/2010 11:53 PM
Those videos are nice for existing fans that understood the hunt you speak of but did nothing to promote fishing and the joy of the sport much less be exciting or entertaining to those outside the sport.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! | |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I've sat around the fireplace at Fellegy's house and dicussed fishing in general and promoting the sport in particular. There were many great ideas and therories brought up. I'll leave it up to him to bring that stuff up because they're his ideas.
I know that we not only need fishing industry sponsors to step up, but we need endemic sponsors to step up and join us that envision the possibilities that will sell their products. With more women fishing we also shoild look to products that appeal to them. I think the advertising dollars could be there if we could just get the message across that we have enough of a fan base who would buy and use their products. The more we market ourselves, the more the money gets spread around. If we keep fishing FOR OUR OWN MONEY the sport will never advance.
I'll be 63 next month and can't really see putting myself through the grind of all the travel, etc. to compete much anymore. The spirit is willing but the body isn't always up to par. Close tournaments or bodies of water I already know would be a consideration. You can promote national sponsors locally as well as the national level. We have young anglers who are up to their bicuspids in debt just trying to compete. (don't let the fancy boats, clothes and trucks fool ya) When I can no longer fish and have to watch from my recliner or at weigh-ins, I would at least like to think that I played some small part in making the sport succeed.
I'm out until tomorrow, going to the Brewers game. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Dale meant "I know that we not only need fishing industry sponsors to step up, but we need NON-endemic sponsors to step up and join us that envision the possibilities that will sell their products...not "endemic".
The likes of the two "Ginny's" (one being Dales wife) when they were a team in many tourneys, was a typical opportunity to grow the sport, missed by the old school marketing teams.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/29/2010 8:30 AM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Guest - 8/28/2010 11:53 PM
Those videos are nice for existing fans that understood the hunt you speak of but did nothing to promote fishing and the joy of the sport much less be exciting or entertaining to those outside the sport.
This quote above shows that marketing to PEOPLE, NOT fishermen, is the key to growing the audience. | |
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| Ya Steve that quote is from a 19 year old in his first year of Marketing. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | What would the tournament coverage video content be that would be exciting and entertaining to those outside the sport?
Notice the JK interview with Marianne Huskey. Read it. Then look at the interview with Joe Okada.
The sport of fishing IS and has been losing participants every year. That's why the 'Take Me Fishing' program was started.
License sales as a percentage of the overall population are very soft.
From this year's ICAST RBFF report:
“Although overall participation is down slightly from 2008, we’re delighted to see that freshwater fishing, which is by far the most popular type of fishing in the U.S., has been able to reverse a two-year downward trend into a one-year positive increase in participation,” said RBFF President and CEO Frank Peterson. “This Special Report is full of valuable information to help stakeholders shape their future marketing and education programs.”
2008 was down from 2006. I don't believe participation has attained 2006 levels yet this year, but sales ARE up over last year.
There is a slight increase in fresh water angling, but not as a percentage of the overall population. That's troublesome.
Wisconsin's license sales have 'held steady' since decreases between 2001 and 2006, and have not grown according to recent articles and press releases by the WIDNR. That means we are losing participants in the sport to attrition, and not gaining enough to grow the sport. Tyee, that's what 'holding steady' means. I don't think that's the goal.
Are you looking for 'dirt' to be published? Rumors and slash and bash articles about personal lives? reality TV arguments and fighting? What...exactly...should we be focusing on with the teams and anglers SF brings up?
Would not those interviews be pre-event and post-event, by a fairly wide timeframe?
Are you looking for 'up close and personal' stuff done at the subject's home and work, the backgound 'why I fish and who I am' story?
It's been donein the bass world where 1 of 4 anglers nationally participate. It's been done using ESPN's incredible reach and deep pockets. And yet, BASS is being sold because quite simply, it isn't making money.
FLW did the Fantasy Fishing deal...a great concept to draw the fans to the FLW website and to the sport; a cool million given away, yet they went near bust in this downturn, and are fighting their way back right now.
The walleye tournament circuits out there are not making big money, gents. They are not cash cows for the owners. Survival is the mode right now, and who...exactly...should the Sponsors invest in? If they do not invest in circuits, there will be no venue for them to get an ROI from their Pros who showcase the products they build, and if they do not invest in their promotional anglers, there will be too few Pros for a successful venue. If there's no venue, there is, by default, no fans because there is no competition. All this sounds really great until you try to apply it somewhere....I'd like to see change too, but if freaking ESPN can't grow the sport with the HUGE pageantry of the Classic, the drama of the final 12, the grass roots entries and weekly TV, how am I, as a Media guy, to help take the reigns and make it so? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Assertions elsewhere that the press should make a big deal out of the recent DQ'd fish at an AIM event. Make a story out of the 'disagreement' between the angler and officials at the time of the decision, hoping to sensationalize it from what it was; a clear rules infraction that wasn't any more intentional than not paying attention to one's speed on the freeway...but if you have someone checking your speed and are 15 over...even if you don't check your speedometer and didn't intend to speed, you are gonna get a ticket.
Other than sensationalistic 'reality TV' that isn't, please explain the 'story' there. That the rule is 'unfair'? Really? Then they all are, right? Are we to HOPE for a big blow up at a few events to grab the 'train wreck' fascination of those who otherwise would not be 'fans'? I think I'm seeing what the concept is at least in part and I'm not real comfortable with it I guess. Should I be?
The Circuits CERTAINLY won't sensationalize that sort of thing, so it'd be up to us ( the press), and it seems it has been to a degree. Open bashing and attacks are OK some places, not OK in others, and it's obvious that bashing and fighting draws an audience, but what about the 'quality' of those page views? Is that the audience we are going to try to recruit as 'fans', and are there enough of them available to our media to make any real difference? That is the type of story a huge non endemic sponsor wants to see?
Is it THAT big a deal that teams exist? If so, when JK and Ron Lindner ask Pros about their teams and get an answer, why doesn't anyone seem to give a hoot? Would a story on the practice make for more fans?
Well, thinking about it, 'Pro' Wrestling is big...even though I find it absurd LOTS of 'fans' like it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Cantor
New stage MC? | |
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| sworrall - 8/29/2010 8:42 PM
Assertions elsewhere that the press should make a big deal out of the recent DQ'd fish at an AIM event. Make a story out of the 'disagreement' between the angler and officials at the time of the decision, hoping to sensationalize it from what it was; a clear rules infraction that wasn't any more intentional than not paying attention to one's speed on the freeway...but if you have someone checking your speed and are 15 over...even if you don't check your speedometer and didn't intend to speed, you are gonna get a ticket.
Other than sensationalistic 'reality TV' that isn't, please explain the 'story' there. That the rule is 'unfair'? Really? Then they all are, right? Are we to HOPE for a big blow up at a few events to grab the 'train wreck' fascination of those who otherwise would not be 'fans'? I think I'm seeing what the concept is at least in part and I'm not real comfortable with it I guess. Should I be?
The Circuits CERTAINLY won't sensationalize that sort of thing, so it'd be up to us ( the press), and it seems it has been to a degree. Open bashing and attacks are OK some places, not OK in others, and it's obvious that bashing and fighting draws an audience, but what about the 'quality' of those page views? Is that the audience we are going to try to recruit as 'fans', and are there enough of them available to our media to make any real difference? That is the type of story a huge non endemic sponsor wants to see?
Is it THAT big a deal that teams exist? If so, when JK and Ron Lindner ask Pros about their teams and get an answer, why doesn't anyone seem to give a hoot? Would a story on the practice make for more fans?
Well, thinking about it, 'Pro' Wrestling is big...even though I find it absurd LOTS of 'fans' like it.
YES to all of your questions/thoughts. Old school is "not real comfortable with it." The new school sees the new school and runs with it.
Why do the news anchors lead with bad, ugly type stories? And in the process, do "sponsors" of those newscasts run away?
Done right, there will always be more good than bad stuff to cover. But just what leads most newscasts on sports and or general news channels? Are the bean counters just people that like to sensationalize the news? Or do they know something the marketing people in competitive fishing circles are not "comfortable" with?
What sells to the 15 to 35 year olds?
Now--is Riley married or not? Did he break his promise? Where's the year old headline? LOL Why did Seelhoff back out of the last AIM event at the last minute? Or did he......?
Bedtime now and a day on the water early tomorrow. | |
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Now--is Riley married or not? Did he break his promise?
She broke a promise. He is not married.
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Location: Rhinelander | That's what I thought.
What Steve wants is for us ( the 'press') to be paparazzi. He believes that will grow the sport.
We do some of that already, but as he said, it needs to be 'done right'.
Is the marriage deal with Todd that wasn't a big story for you?
What do you think? | |
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| Mr. Fellegy, last time I looked I haven't seen your name in a well known pro-am tournament in at least two years. Funny how you think you have all the solutions and think by digging up dirt is worthy content to help grow the sport.
As far as I know, BASS didn't get to the size they are by acting on rumors or digging dirt up for stories to draw in a crowd. Reporting dirt in a paparazzi fashion if you want to call it will only put tournament fishing in a bad light.
As Mr. Worrall said, look at the stories he mentioned, stories like the Joe Okada and Marianne Huskey pieces, those were interesting and compelling. Those stories keep me coming back for more and keep me interested as they do for others I think. AIM would benefit a lot with stories like those on weekly basis or input from industry icons like Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen.
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Quote:As far as I know, BASS didn't get to the size they are by acting on rumors or digging dirt up for stories to draw in a crowd. Reporting dirt in a paparazzi fashion if you want to call it will only put tournament fishing in a bad light."
BASS is not very big, relatively speaking, as MOST of the people attempting to compete in that venue are still going or have gone broke in the process. Hot dog eatings contests draw bigger numbers on ESPN than BASS.
Me being in a boat competing the past 2 years, after being in the game for most of the past 27 years, surely wouldn't give me more basis for trying to improve how the future of the game is shaped and grows. If it would? Somebody better start paying me again to do so, and I will be back with bells on! LOL | |
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| hey Steve W... just got back from a USO tourney this weekend. have a report on the weekend soon at the tuffy board... lot of writing here... head hurts. tough to compare Walleye and bass... tourney wise... Walleye is seasonal where in parts of the country bass is year round. I think a big factor in bass tourneys is the federations of bass clubs. hold things together for the weekend guys... I don't see the walleye world with anything like that...
I'm here in NY with some great walleye fishing. tourneys, next to none... might start a club for next year... | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Hot dog eatings contests draw bigger numbers on ESPN than BASS. '
That, of course, isn't necessarily true, but point taken.
No one answered the question yet as to exactly what some of the coverage video content might be to answer the objections posted above. | |
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| Ok Steve as you are looking for what a production/marketing company really does to get the ball rolling (Not something "WF Should necessarily do") as you are a news and information venue, take a look at some of the simple trailer clips that an old friend of mine does now in Hollywood, he has won 3 emmys. He did it better than I in school and has become very successful at it. You are right about one thing....It ain't cheap.
www.wunderfilm.com
I think your confusing what Steve F is saying with what you would like to do. Unfortunately you are a news and information company not a marketing/production company. and the new is looking for a show to bite their teeth into.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/30/2010 9:25 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sworrall - 8/28/2010 6:53 PM
Hey Denny.
We've talked about this many times...the inside story that really isn't, the gossip that's really nothing more than anonymous crap slinging...OFM can do what we have discussed and do it right; is that what you think the fans really will want? Will taking that step without eliminating what we do now 'add' fans?
See the videos we shot at ICAST where some of the Final 12 talked about the hunt for the Angler of the Year and the chances of beating Skeet.
Stronger? More of same, but Walleye?
Steve
I agree 110% with what you are saying regarding the media. If not for OFM the coverager of such events would be horrifying.
My question regarding the reason to grow the sport was well answered by you.
Tyee, fellegy, you guys need to explain to us how you will get it done. I have a wild imagination and it is clogged.
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| Younger age...Define how young? Then look at the economics of it.
Last time I check most young folks out of school can't afford $50K boats, $40K trucks, and thousands more in tackle. The model is broke....financially also. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Jayman - 8/30/2010 10:26 AM
Younger age...Define how young? Then look at the economics of it.
Last time I check most young folks out of school can't afford $50K boats, $40K trucks, and thousands more in tackle. The model is broke....financially also.
Back from fishing this morning....
Jayman,
Fans don't need to buy boats and tackle. They don't need to fish!!! Do NFL fans play football? They know nothing about serious football!! NASCAR fans race? Buy race cars? None of them know about or care about what a restricted carb is. BUT!! They ALL add up to consumers in the real world. And THAT group is what we need to attract non-endemic sponsors. We already have the serious fishermen. Forget about fishermen! I want the gal that holds a Super Bowl party (every Sunday)and can't spell shoulder pads!
If you get enough FANS, enough of them will become endemic consumers. More of them then you have now!
Now--I am out of this thread.....over and out. If you can't understand what my weather-beaten mind is saying and envisioning....I can't help ya anymore here. LOL | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Steve,
Again, that's a cop out. Your thoughts on this are pretty out of the box, and it isn't surprising that folks have trouble 'getting' what you are trying to say. if you are truly interested in making a change, why would you bail out the minute someone challenges a concept? | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Steve Fellegy knows, and I agree with him, that I want that gal that cannot spell shoulder pads, yet has super bowl parties for sure, have you seen her? Them are the fan base you want to create. HOWEVER, I believe he bailed on this conversation because he doesn't know how to get them either. He wants more monies spent, he wants more people that don't fish to follow fishing and he wants serious kids programs, but if he knows how to get that, he aint tellin or he doesnot know. He also knows that what OFM is doing will not grow the sport, what he doesnot seem to understand is what OFM does is KEEP the existing customer base. What he knows is there are plenty of players in the game so there is no reason to attract new ones.
Steve F. If I am wrong then go ahead and tell me, but that is what I read.
Who will be the one who cracks this and makes the next million being the walleye promo king, the last was the lindners.
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Every sport or entertainment venue out there is driven by old dogs verses new blood. Unfortunately in the Walleye world, the new bloods are the people who have the hardest time breaking in. Unlike other sports/events we’re all playing with our own money. Heck, now about ½ or more of the entrants into the world series of poker are sponsored.
What’s the draw with poker? Anybody who can read/count can play it. People do not have that same perception with fishing tournaments. We’ve always tried to have tournaments on the waters with the best bites at the best time of year to show how big of fish we can catch. Could we build a new fan base by having events on other bodies of water besides the same ones we’ve always had them on?
Do the pro Walleye circuits have as big of a following in Wyoming and Nebraska as they do in Wisconsin and Minnesota? I understand that those states don’t have as many premier fisheries, but if they’re not given the chance to host these events and have a vested interest, why would they care if they watch another Winnebago or Oahe event?
Another aspect that bass fishing has over Walleye fishing, is that bass techniques are more universal. Throwing rubber worms is something everybody who’s bass fished has done, whereas trolling dipseys and spoons may be something somebody from Washington has never heard of with Walleyes before. This is also where I feel we have an advantage by spreading out, we can really help our sponsors out by introducing new techniques.
Unfortunately, the economics doesn’t work out. Traveling across the country is a huge investment. We’ve shot ourselves in the foot on this one. We didn’t spread east or west enough in the formative years, now we can’t get enough entrants in events in those places. Are there people who are nuts about Walleye fishing in those states? Absolutely. Are they accustomed to seeing high profile tournaments? No.
If we want this to grow, we have to quit thinking Wisconsin and Minnesota are the only states in the country that matter. Yes, I know those two make up a huge part of the fan base, but we’ve gotten a big chunk of those fans, now we have to expand. I think we need more tournament coverage on TV, but I think the best way to do it is to get existing shows with a fan base to have a 2 minute segment about a circuit.
While he was alive, Tony Deans show could’ve been a great venue to showcase tournaments in the South Dakota, North Dakota and Wyoming area. This could even be part of a sponsorship deal for the tv program/channel. If Joe Bucher had a 2 minute segment airing results and a personal interest story for some statewide circuit, the circuit and some of the anglers would gain exposure. The television channel could gain some viewers, but also free advertisers. If I won a tournament and knew it was going to be on that show, I’d tell everybody I knew to tune in. Maybe some of them would like the show and become regular watchers. It may not be perfect, but at least it’s an idea.
Here’s an example, the fire dept at Stoddard, WI has an annual big fish tournament that draws on average 400-500 anglers. I bet you $100 that not 30% of them know who Gary Parsons or Pete Harsh are. That’s within one or two of the target states. Many people locally have asked me if I know Jimmy Hughes though, because he won the FLW League championship here (Winona). A local presence makes a difference.
I don’t claim to have the answers, but I do know this. The young blood is disappearing and without it the whole thing will fail. BASS has grassroots organizations and the Walleye side needs to as well. Invites to events that cost $1500 for a local angler aren’t going to cut it. We need sanctioned series that allow us to work our way up so we can afford to play. Not just an invite. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | AIM is doing just that.
http://www.aimfishing.com/sanctionedseries.asp
I personally think the FLW league was a stronger concept for the purpose of growing the sport, it just was tough on their pocketbook lately. | |
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| Steve Fellegy - 8/30/2010 12:48 PM
Do MINESOTA NFL fans play football? ThMinnesota Fans nothing about serious football!!
I want the gal that holds a Super Bowl party (every Sunday)and can't spell shoulder pads!
I want that gal too. She's hot! I think she works at Tilted Kilt | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | This is what I'm talking about though. The invite is nice, and it's all I'd expect from AIM. However, how many of those spots were taken last year?
Most of us fishing smaller circuits can't justify spending that kind of money even though it's a premier event. Poker has satellite tournaments to get into bigger ones. The FLW League did this with state anglers of the year into the tour championship. That was something worth shooting for. A free entry to the big show got some people into that tournament that may not ever try to get there on their own.
I don’t expect AIM or FLW to offer 20 free spots, but it would help to get local anglers to support local circuits. This is where the future generations of tournament anglers come from. I’m in the business process field in my career, and each project we take requires us to look at the whole process. Here are my thoughts on it, and why I think we have to showcase events on other water and let anglers earn their way in.
The biggest issue we all face is the lack of fan base. Maybe there are people that don’t want to admit it because they’re so invested in it that they think everybody will love it. I don’t see it that way, I think we need to cater to casual anglers and their families first. Right now we only get anglers who are already involved with tournaments or have buddies who are, or anglers from a body of water being showcased (which is the same old same old water). Some of these are one time fans, that only care because it’s their home water or their buddy is fishing.
We need to find ways to capture more of that demographic. We need to let anglers who only watch because it’s their home waters know who’s using the techniques they want to learn. I know that pros talk about what they did on the mic, been there done that. The problem is, the ones who get the real mic time are the ones who did the best (deservedly so, but that doesn’t help the guy who wants to learn a technique that wasn’t in the top 3). Maybe the angler who got 5th was trolling leadcore, and that’s what Joe Blow wants to know. That angler needs to have an idea of who was doing it, what were their results, are there similar tournaments with those anglers so they can see how consistent it is etc…
This one time or casual fan can become hooked and be an integral part of the tournament scene if the information is out there. Not only does it have to be out there, it has to be marketed to them. They will not find it on their own. We have articles on Walleye sites, we have videos etc… They don’t know it’s there, or it doesn’t answer their questions. How we get this info to them and find out what they need, is something I’m not sure of.
Increasing the amount of info and the knowledge of how to get it sells products. This may not be our responsibility, maybe it’s the promotional anglers responsibility to write in to the local newspapers outdoors section with a one time blog after an event.
We’re not covering waters that a big chunk of the demographic fish. Yes, Winnebago and Green Bay are the biggest fisheries in Wisconsin, but what percentage of the anglers from this state fish there? Are there better options, I don’t know but we need to consider it.
As for earning your way into a championship, I see both sides of this. We used to hear it from the FLW Tour, those anglers that fished 4 events to qualify for a championship didn’t want some scrub who fished 3 league events to get a free ride against them. That’s understandable to a point, but without that the league and the tour lose credibility. What I feel is needed here is sponsorship for just this type of earned invite. So the entry is paid (the anglers who fished the whole tour should be happier because this adds to the pot), and the team who earned their way in from a smaller circuit got in on merit. Can we find 10-20 sponsors willing to do this? I bet if somebody earned their way in through a smaller circuit and competed well at the AIM championship the odds of them stepping up greatly increase.
I think before we worry about anything else, these are the things we need to address first. We can’t market to a fan base we don’t have. We have to build that first, and at the same time provide opportunity for up and comers. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'I know that pros talk about what they did on the mic, been there done that. The problem is, the ones who get the real mic time are the ones who did the best (deservedly so, but that doesn’t help the guy who wants to learn a technique that wasn’t in the top 3). Maybe the angler who got 5th was trolling leadcore, and that’s what Joe Blow wants to know. That angler needs to have an idea of who was doing it, what were their results, are there similar tournaments with those anglers so they can see how consistent it is etc… '
AIM Top Ten rewind. Watch 'em, they offer up what they were doing to catch fish, and the GPS tracker shows you where with as many as 5.
It's a heck of an equation we are trying to figure out. | |
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| one finger typing, how can we get fans when the wheel is square? | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Steve,
My point isn't that there isn't info. My point is that the info that's currently out there isn't mainstream. You and I may know where to find it, but that doesn't transcend to the average angler. That is who we are trying to market to, at least to start.
We need to get more mainstream media coverage. We keep saying that they won't cover it, but have we tried recently? Sometimes I think most of us think too big. We want every event to be the BassMaster Classic, and that's just not realistic.
Another thought on my sponsored championship entry idea is that it could lead to local stories. Tournament circuits and the sponsors could submit a story to the local papers, which builds PR for the circuit, the sponsor, and draws attention to that angler and the championship they're going to participate in. It reminds me of a time when I traveled 11 hours to fish a national championship.
I didn't expect any local coverage, but I bet my local newspaper would've ran a story because some local boys were going. They didn't know about it. This is free. It may not be the ultimate solution, but we have to start somewhere. | |
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| Kind of like when the RCL Championship was worth $400,000 and they drew over 200 plus Pro Entries. I thought someday a guy could make it big. Then it all went away. | |
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| sworral: Good point about a fisherman wanting to learn some technique which does not get discussed since it was not used by the top three who did tell what they did. I only learned about a technique used on Winnebago well after the fact. My tournament partner and I had received an invitation to the Cabela's NTC that first weekend of June. We came in 56th so missed cashing a check by six places. (no matter) I had a great time prefishing the week prior and the two tournament days. The technique I learned about after coming back home is the long rod, intermediate rod, and short rod used by a team of two to get a spread of six lines out without using planers and then trolling through shallow water. Funny too... not everyone spills the beans. The team which occupied first place after day one never said a word to anyone from their home club about what they were doing with considerable success. Their bite was in shallow water south of Oshkosh on the west side but it died on Sunday. We trolled north of Oshkosh over mud using planer boards with decent results on Saturday but on Sunday our bite died too.
If I ever fish Winnebago again, I will have a three rod set up for each side of the boat and will try fishing shallower water. | |
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| Steve F. said "Forget about fishermen! I want the girl that holds a Super Bowl party and can't spell shoulder pads". Let's think about what we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do here, which is become a fan of something she has no previous experience with.
My experiment: Take a second, and think about any type of non-mainstream sport/competition that you are a "fan" of. (exclude NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA and Nascar). You know, ESPN2 type stuff like drag racing, figure skating, rodeo, MMA, cycling, monster trucks, etc. A "sport" that you watch when it is on TV, and you know some of the names involved, but no one else in the office does. Got one or two picked out?
Now eliminate any on your list that you are already, or have been "involved" in. (So if you have horses, rodeo is out. If you swam in college, swimming is out.) We are looking for things that you "became" a fan of, just like we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do.
Now, tell us what it is, and why you like it. Maybe we can learn a little about what it takes to attract brand new fans.
Personally, I can't think of one. My whole point is that Ms. Shoulder Pads will never, ever be a fan of tournament walleye fishing unless she actually starts doing it. It needs to grow from the inside. Prove me wrong: list your sport from the above experiment and let's compare it to fishing. | |
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| Thumper, the only thing Ms. Shoulder Pads is into is the cute guy on TV. She'll probably never fish, much less tourney fish. But she'll spend money if she watches only a bit of it and sees a few impressions (ads) she likes.
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Berlin | I'd like to build the world a home
and furnish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves
I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company
I'd like to see the world for once
all standing hand in hand
and hear them echo through the hills
for peace throuout the land
thats the song I hear
Let the world sing today
a song of peace
that echoes on
and never goes away
I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I'd like to build the world a home
and funish it with love
grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow white turtle doves
I'd like to teach the world to sing
in perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
and keep it company
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | thumper - 9/1/2010 6:23 AM
Steve F. said "Forget about fishermen! I want the girl that holds a Super Bowl party and can't spell shoulder pads". Let's think about what we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do here, which is become a fan of something she has no previous experience with.
My experiment: Take a second, and think about any type of non-mainstream sport/competition that you are a "fan" of. (exclude NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA and Nascar). You know, ESPN2 type stuff like drag racing, figure skating, rodeo, MMA, cycling, monster trucks, etc. A "sport" that you watch when it is on TV, and you know some of the names involved, but no one else in the office does. Got one or two picked out?
Now eliminate any on your list that you are already, or have been "involved" in. (So if you have horses, rodeo is out. If you swam in college, swimming is out.) We are looking for things that you "became" a fan of, just like we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do.
Now, tell us what it is, and why you like it. Maybe we can learn a little about what it takes to attract brand new fans.
Personally, I can't think of one. My whole point is that Ms. Shoulder Pads will never, ever be a fan of tournament walleye fishing unless she actually starts doing it. It needs to grow from the inside. Prove me wrong: list your sport from the above experiment and let's compare it to fishing.
My answer to Thumper? In the form of a questions!
Was NASCAR a "mainstream" sport before your Ms. Shoulder Pads became a fan? Did she drive race cars before she became a fan? For that matter, were ANY of the "main stream" sports NOT new to today's fan at one point? Or were they born fans? Did they create Ms. Shoulder Pads into a fan by having her play in the minor leagues first? WHY in God's name wouldn't one go after Ms. Shoulder Pads just as your main stream sports did? Are all golfers, that are fans but don't play the game, out of bounds for competitive fishing? Do you know the ratings the Volley Ball drew at the Olympics last year? That isn't on your list of "main stream" and yet.....BIG! Or the ratings for Figure Skating? Not mainstream but numbers competitive fishing would kill for!!! ( we need a Tonya Harding story!) And did those fans ever do a double axle first, before being a fan? Ask your self.....
Just like ALL sports had to do, a "fan culture" has to be created.
With your goals and ideals....it will never grow past a few new anglers each year, just as the past and present. You need to AIM much higher!!!!! Why wouldn't you?
Now dang it--I am OFF this thread for good LOL!!
Edited by Steve Fellegy 9/1/2010 2:42 PM
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | It's kind of hard to compare Olympic sports to tournament fishing. With Olympic sports, you already have a giant event that brings viewers in regardless of the sport. How many of us are bobsled fans? Yet, I bet you probably stopped and watched a few minutes during the Olympics if you happened to see it on.
Think of other sports that have had a cult following but blown up over the last 5-10 years. Poker and MMA come to mind. Poker has always had a following, but never anything like it saw after a guy who had the right name and cool sunglasses won the biggest tournament of all (Chris Moneymaker). Or MMA, Liddel vs. Couture did more for that sport than anything else. They were marketable guys who the hardcore fans loved, but the non fans and casual watchers could really get into.
We have the personalities, but where we have failed is making them household names. We have the “Tiger Woods” of fishing. He even has a name that’s perfect for it. KVD should be a name people can remember, but how do we get him out there? We don’t have as clear of an all time best in the Walleye world, but we have some dang good ones. I think the biggest hurdle is perception. My best comparison for fishing tournaments is professional bowling. Most bowlers don’t even follow it.
Here are the similarities that I see, to a casual observer a pro bowler looks silly, I’m sure they think we do too with all of our bright shirts, loud stickers on our boats, and spiky haired fools break dancing in their boats. The casual observer also has a hard time putting a real value of how good a bowler or angler is. Anybody can bowl a good game once in a while, or catch a big fish once in a while.
About 10 people in the country can dunk from the free throw line, nobody can golf consistently as well as Tiger. These are things they understand. They don’t understand that KVD has been dominating way more often than not. They don’t realize that his competitors feel the same way about him as Tigers do.
Liddel and Couture were two top of the food chain guys when they met for those classic fights, and they were hyped as that. After a 6-8 month period MMA went through the roof. Golf went through the roof when Tiger came in. NBA always had stars, but Jordan brought many many more fans. How do we get our guys in that kind of light? That is the question. We can debate all we want, but we need fans plain and simple. | |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Answer: TV... Show some "producer" how to reap a financial reward broadcasting walleye weigh-ins and I will show you a repeat of the "Housewives of Orange County" | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | hgmeyer - 9/1/2010 4:09 PM
Answer: TV... Show some "producer" how to reap a financial reward broadcasting walleye weigh-ins and I will show you a repeat of the "Housewives of Orange County"
Now you're talkin'!! Take a look at the message boards that follow that show...6 figure replies to all postings. Same as most "serials".
ALL major league sports are actually ongoing "serials". No different then the likes of Dallas. Dynasty or One Life to Live or Big Brother reality shows. When tournament fishing at the top levels become a "serial", you will have fans. All you want. But there ain't an endemic marketing guru that will believe that or allow that..... | |
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| I agree but I think TV Comes second....TV will follow the money. You can buy and create a Michael Jordan, Jeff Gordon, Tiger Woods Moneymaker etc.....get the right marketing team, the right agent and the product can be sold. These huge sponsors will not invest in a fishing tournament but they will invest in a personality! Those kind of Marketing dollars will attract a TV Show.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 9/1/2010 10:44 PM
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| Thank,s Rich, I really could go for a Coke. | |
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Location: Berlin | :D | |
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| You can eliminate trying to duplicate the success of ANY sport that requires elite physical ability. (Volleyball, figure skating, MMA, horse racing, etc.). People are fans of those things BECAUSE of the physical ability required.
Fishing is like poker, no real physical ability required. So let's look at competitive poker, why is it big? Because thousands of people can enter on-line tournaments any hour of the day, play in tournaments at the local bar, etc. When did it start getting big? WHEN MORE PEOPLE STARTED PARTICIPATING IN IT.
Tournament fishing requires no great physical prowess, we don't have exciting crashes and people risking life and limb racing cars at 200 mph like Nascar. We are more comparable to your Tuesday night softball league. The people in the stands are other players, family and friends. That's it. You can promote your Tuesday night league all over town, guess what? No one's comin' to watch. You want more butts in the bleachers? Get more teams, more players, more family, more friends.
You get big (like poker did) by getting people to participate. You get people to participate by giving them reasonably affordable opportunities to enter into the sport. It's that simple.
BTW, I have great respect for Steve, and this is by no means personal. We both would love to see tournament fishing grow, we just have different views on how to do so. | |
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| Poker got big because of the lure of money! The thought of the average Joe winning Millions of dollars by playing poker is a huge draw. Just like they did with the RCL the thought of fishing for $400,000 lured over 200 plus boats to fish. Plus it sold alot of Lunds, Crestliners, and Rangers. Put out the money and they will come and so will TV coverage. | |
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| bbbbbb - 9/2/2010 9:54 AM Poker got big because of the lure of money! The thought of the average Joe winning Millions of dollars by playing poker is a huge draw. Just like they did with the RCL the thought of fishing for $400,000 lured over 200 plus boats to fish. Plus it sold alot of Lunds, Crestliners, and Rangers. Put out the money and they will come and so will TV coverage. Yes, that will work too. Don't hold your breath though. Poker's money came from online poker participation. The players came first, then the money, then more players, then more money. Do you see who is advertising during the WSOP? Online poker sites.
Edited by thumper 9/2/2010 10:14 AM
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Location: Berlin | Poker is big because you don't have the huge upfront investment like you do in fishing. There also is far less skill needed so literally anyone can win if they get the right cards. Any Joe can get into a $50 satelite and end up in with a huge payday but still only invested $50 or sometimes even less.
I think the best comparison to fishing would be boat racing, tractor pulls or drag racing because you need to spend a ton of money to play the sport. Those sports are suffering right now just like fishing. Most of the tier two sports are. You all have some great ideas but you need to stop comparing apples to watermelons. | |
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| NASCAR was a fad, Texas Hold'em Poker was a fad.
Right now there are more American's that participate in golf, bowling and fishing, all individual sports, than any other sports. There's plenty of people participateing already. How do you model tournament fishing to get the already active fisher people to become fans, to participate. To spend their money, which all of you seem to be focused on.
One suggestion, don't make the promotional portion an in your face infomercial....I like tournament fishing, I'm a fan, but I hate how I'm always being sold something no matter the venue. Make poeple curious, there interest alone will provoke them to buy. Shoving it down their throat, is a turn off.
Eliminate the greed....The game can grow.
Edited by Jayman 9/2/2010 10:48 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=13088012
Very quick read, please take the time. Maybe this is what should be reported more often about our sports competitors instead of hearing, "I was going to ram anyone who tried to get close."
Maybe the sponsors want the high road?
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Location: Badgerland | WOO HOO!!!! I HAVE 200TH POST !!!! WHAT DO I WIN ? DOCK N STAY ???? | |
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Location: Berlin | If you get the 500th you got it | |
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| Poker players only need shades, hats, good luck charms, poker faces, and entry fees! Very cheap by comparison.
Larry | |
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Location: Badgerland | Rich S - 9/2/2010 5:16 PM
If you get the 500th you got it :)
alright !! | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Troy, your user listing only shows 152 posts. Whereas I have 846. Hey Rich, where in the heck is my Duece? You said you would give me one for my birthday which was yesterday. | |
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Location: Badgerland | Horshak - 9/2/2010 7:16 PM
Troy, your user listing only shows 152 posts. Whereas I have 846. Hey Rich, where in the heck is my Duece? You said you would give me one for my birthday which was yesterday.
lmao... 200th on this thread !!! you better concintrate on making the NTC GO GETEM BUDDY !!! | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Horshak,
This is a very giving site, If you want someone to drop you a deuce I'm sure someone will volunteer!! | |
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| jerry - 9/2/2010 8:34 PM Horshak, This is a very giving site, If you want someone to drop you a deuce I'm sure someone will volunteer!! Eventually, every thread ends up here, doesn't it? That's why I love this place. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I think this is the first post in WF that took longer than 20 posts for the post to go that route. You guys are slipping. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | LurePresentation - 9/2/2010 5:18 PM
Poker players only need shades, hats, good luck charms, poker faces, and entry fees! Very cheap by comparison.
Larry
Amazingly...you guys keep talking about people becoming fishermen. Trying to create fishermen. Trying to get fishermen to become fans. Trying to make the sport affordable for more people. That's been the marketing game plan, to grow the $$ in competitive fishing, for 27 years of walleye and over 40 years of bass fishing. It DON"T work!! Forget about creating/marketing the "game" itself first and foremost. That ain't what poker did and or any other sports marketing companies did, to create fans enough to grow the VALUE of any successful sport. The VALUE is NOT in people playing the game directly. The VALUE is in the non-player element of the sport. Get enough fans and the endemic aspect will sell more product and not even have to be in the forefront of all the advertising.
Stand on the street corner and do surveys of any sports fan you want. It ALWAYS will show, most know nothing much about the game itself. Most will know all kinds of stuff about the real life stuff indirectly related to every aspect of the sport. (players, owners, agents, legal issues, negotiations, money issues--both good and sad, former players history and later in life stories, fund raising for community projects etc. etc.) Why? Because that's ALL they comprehend and care about that the media/marketing teams get out to them. The numbers are too small to create big value, of the fans that do know and care about the fundamental aspects of the sport.
Edited by Steve Fellegy 9/3/2010 7:21 AM
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| Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 7:20 AM The VALUE is NOT in people playing the game directly. The VALUE is in the non-player element of the sport. I don't know how you can say that. Just look at tournament bass fishing. It is way bigger than walleye. Why? Because more people friggin' participate in it! Not because they have some awesome marketing guy. I agree, it would be awesome to attract a huge fan base of people who don't fish or tournament fish. Good luck with that. No other non-physical, non-motorsport activity on the planet has been able to do it. Not one. | |
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| Thumper? Whos getting Rich in the Bass World, How many players have multi-Million dollar contracts?
(excluding Irwin)
Your going to tell me Thumper...that Fishing is not Physical? Now that IS funny,.....Tell that to any one of the guys in Winnebigosh today.....lol And why would fishing be a non-motorized sport? Why can't someone in the fishing sport get a contract like Michael Schumacher of 125 mil, or Fernando Alonso 160 mil.
Of course these are all "Athletes" Maybe instead of calling them professional fishermen we need to start calling them fishing athletes.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 9/3/2010 9:30 AM
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| tyee - 9/3/2010 9:16 AM Your going to tell me Thumper...that Fishing is not Physical? Now that IS funny,.....Tell that to any one of the guys in Winnebigosh today.....lol Good Luck Tyee I hope you are joking... | |
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Location: Berlin | Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 7:20 AM
LurePresentation - 9/2/2010 5:18 PM
Poker players only need shades, hats, good luck charms, poker faces, and entry fees! Very cheap by comparison.
Larry
Amazingly...you guys keep talking about people becoming fishermen. Trying to create fishermen. Trying to get fishermen to become fans. Trying to make the sport affordable for more people. That's been the marketing game plan, to grow the $$ in competitive fishing, for 27 years of walleye and over 40 years of bass fishing. It DON"T work!! Forget about creating/marketing the "game" itself first and foremost. That ain't what poker did and or any other sports marketing companies did, to create fans enough to grow the VALUE of any successful sport. The VALUE is NOT in people playing the game directly. The VALUE is in the non-player element of the sport. Get enough fans and the endemic aspect will sell more product and not even have to be in the forefront of all the advertising.
Stand on the street corner and do surveys of any sports fan you want. It ALWAYS will show, most know nothing much about the game itself. Most will know all kinds of stuff about the real life stuff indirectly related to every aspect of the sport. (players, owners, agents, legal issues, negotiations, money issues--both good and sad, former players history and later in life stories, fund raising for community projects etc. etc. ) Why? Because that's ALL they comprehend and care about that the media/marketing teams get out to them. The numbers are too small to create big value, of the fans that do know and care about the fundamental aspects of the sport.
Actually Steve, that is EXACTLY what poker did. Pokers money came from the inside by increasing the number of players. This happend for on big reason, the pocket cam. This turned out to be the greatest teaching tool ever and people caught on and said "hey, I can do that!".
Poker is a game that anyone can play with basically zero money up front. The world series of poker was in two buildings this year because they had so many participants. Do you think every one of them paid $10,000 to get in?? We have local tournament circuits that you can win a seat into the WSOP. It is a realistic goal for the average Joe to get into the WSOP. Can you say that about fishing??
Like I said earlier you need to stop with the unrealistic comparisons. The sooner we realize fishing will never be the NFL or PGA we can start pushing the sport to its full potential. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 7:20 AM
Amazingly...you guys keep talking about people becoming fishermen. Trying to create fishermen. Trying to get fishermen to become fans. Trying to make the sport affordable for more people. That's been the marketing game plan, to grow the $$ in competitive fishing, for 27 years of walleye and over 40 years of bass fishing. It DON"T work!! Forget about creating/marketing the "game" itself first and foremost. That ain't what poker did and or any other sports marketing companies did, to create fans enough to grow the VALUE of any successful sport. The VALUE is NOT in people playing the game directly. The VALUE is in the non-player element of the sport. Get enough fans and the endemic aspect will sell more product and not even have to be in the forefront of all the advertising.
Stand on the street corner and do surveys of any sports fan you want. It ALWAYS will show, most know nothing much about the game itself. Most will know all kinds of stuff about the real life stuff indirectly related to every aspect of the sport. (players, owners, agents, legal issues, negotiations, money issues--both good and sad, former players history and later in life stories, fund raising for community projects etc. etc.) Why? Because that's ALL they comprehend and care about that the media/marketing teams get out to them. The numbers are too small to create big value, of the fans that do know and care about the fundamental aspects of the sport.
STEVE 180 Degrees off. talk to sports fans and they know about the game before they care about the other stuff you speak of, but mind you, they do care about the other stuff. you put the cart before the horse. HOWEVER, ask any sports fan how the game is played and they will tell you and fanatic fans know all the other stuff you speak of.
As far as players not being a focus, I disagree. Lots of people who are fans of baseball football played the sport. They never made it to the pro's but always dreamed. THE FANS TODAY CAN STILL DREAM vicariously through there heros. Fishing needs to keep breeding that. I disagree that the field doesn't need more players, 50 is not enough. The junior circuits need to keep playing and the fan base will grow as the junior circuit guys associate there stories with one of the guys at the top stories. That is the key element that needs to be done. The stories of the top pros need to be published so fans can associate with them and see themselfs. | |
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| thumper no I am not joking, I know MANY guys who have had back surgery or some long term effects from this sport. Numerous co-anglers I have talked to that have said they couldn't ever fish like that on a regular basis. Why not compare it to Racing and the guys who sit in a car the entire time instead of 600hp we have boats with 300hp. Or I guess maybe thats why Golfers can't use a cart either? lol That must make them Athletes too.
Rich, I understand your take on Poker, but lets look at Formula One, numerous 100million dollar contracts for drivers... Nothing against the Europeans and driving on the wrong side of the road but did the autoban really create their drivers? Their fan base potential is a tenth of that in the US. Yet they are richer than Nascar? Why can't fishing do it?
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 9/3/2010 10:01 AM
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Location: Berlin | Simple, fishing is not racing, there are no crashes. The average person that DOES NOT FISH finds fishing to be boring. We all drive cars and we all think we could drive race cars. Why is that they have toy race cars outside of supermarkets?? Kids pay to dream they are driving a race car. Racing IS exciting to a lot more people then fishing is. That is the reason.
Edited by Rich S 9/3/2010 10:01 AM
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Location: Berlin | tyee - 9/3/2010 9:16 AM
Thumper? Whos getting Rich in the Bass World, How many players have multi-Million dollar contracts?
(excluding Irwin)
Your going to tell me Thumper...that Fishing is not Physical? Now that IS funny,.....Tell that to any one of the guys in Winnebigosh today.....lol And why would fishing be a non-motorized sport? Why can't someone in the fishing sport get a contract like Michael Schumacher of 125 mil, or Fernando Alonso 160 mil.
Of course these are all "Athletes" Maybe instead of calling them professional fishermen we need to start calling them fishing athletes.
Good Luck
Tyee
How many of the trollers out there could even run a 50yrd dash without having a heart attack? When you can eat 3 bags of potato chips during a tournament I would not call that a physical sport | |
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| Not Exciting?.....maybe thats the message huh...make it more exciting for those outside the sport? Like I said in the beginning, you need Beer, hot chicks and good looking athletes. Maybe someday there will be a trout pond in front of every walmart too! Is that why you gave up trolling, to get back in shape..........
Good luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 9/3/2010 10:10 AM
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| It doesn't take tremendous strength or physical skill to fish. People watch figure skating, MMA and even golf because they do.
Is it tough sometimes, can it wear on you, yes. But it is not an integral part of the sport. We have lots of fat, out of shape pros who fish well. | |
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Location: Berlin | You nailed it! Here is the problem, fishing is boring. Without compromising the integrity of the sport I am not sure there is a way to make it exciting. There have been some great ideas that have come and gone especially in the bass world. After seeing those innovations fail I am very skeptical that it can be done. AIM is on the right track and I am looking forward to where they take the sport.
Can we grow the sport...YES. Will it ever be NFL/PGA...NO CHANCE!
BTW, nice burn on me getting back in shape. Cudos
Edited by Rich S 9/3/2010 10:16 AM
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Stacker, Thumper and....
The day you sit down and meet with the biggest sports marketing gurus in the country, get back to me on how you view things. Until then....My heads hurts! | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Rich,
I'm a troller and I just competed in my first triathlon last weekend. Does that qualify me? | |
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Location: Berlin | See what happens when you take a break from trolling for a while! Congrats | |
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| Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 12:26 PM Stacker, Thumper and.... The day you sit down and meet with the biggest sports marketing gurus in the country, get back to me on how you view things. Until then....My heads hurts! I think you mean, the day they sit down with me. Then we might accomplish something.
Edited by thumper 9/3/2010 12:51 PM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | LOL....thanks Rich!! | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 12:26 PM
Stacker, Thumper and....
The day you sit down and meet with the biggest sports marketing gurus in the country, get back to me on how you view things. Until then....My heads hurts!
I can see they like the way you decided this sport should run, they are using it?
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Location: Berlin | Steve Fellegy - 9/3/2010 12:26 PM
Stacker, Thumper and....
The day you sit down and meet with the biggest sports marketing gurus in the country, get back to me on how you view things. Until then....My heads hurts!
I just got off the phone (conference call) with Brandon Steiner and Michael Neuman. I asked them how to make tortoise racing the biggest sport in the world and they said it is not possible and we hung up.
Now take your excedrine migraine medicine so we can get back to this discussion. | |
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| Hey guys Steve is right, and the FLW has a great marketing agent, Thats what aim is going to have or they won't make it, I don't think Aim has the resources to land a large sponsor such as Wal-Mart or any other large companey, nothing has happened in 2 years,, i don't see anthing happing for the 3rd year? | |
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| Proeye, what is the marketing agent for FLW? Irwin? a boat builder? If Aim follows in that footstep nothing will change!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| the flw has a excellent marking department..they due other events beside fishing, just like the mwc. | |
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| its all about marketing, no marketing, no people, no people no sponsors , no tournaments, a very simple concept, for example, if you go into a wal-mart in green bay go into the fishing department,, they have very little or none of the good fishing tackle, very poor for a fishing deparment,,so why is walmart investing all this money? they didn't improve there fishing department when they sponored before! and theres no improving there fishing departmnet now,its what called brand money, all large companeys have it, and in order to get it you better have some good marketing people, that knows how to get brand money,(it's alot harder than you think to get it.) Teams will be the why market the future, companeys will sponsoe a team of 3,4,5,maybe six or more , to place high, this will give them brand reconition they want, marketing one person in the fishing industrie won,t cut it any more. And in the fishing industrie why do they have to sponsor , your going to buy the product any way? You know we will increase the price product to sponsor you, which your paying already, the boat industrie is the same way, the cost of sponsoring is built into the price of the boat (contengcie money)( bad spelling sorry) IT'S ALL ABOUT MARKETING | |
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| TYEE I AGREE i love the aim format, i loved fishing it, but if they stay on this path they will not succed.. i would love to tackle this, give me 2 years and 3 good marketing people , it will be alot of hard work but it can be done, fishing is my life and i don't like to see whats happening to it | |
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Location: Rhinelander | What 'path' are you talking about?
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| proeye, I'm not sure I understand your position on this or why you think FLW is doing so good?, but I can see you have a passion for fishing. As Steve said please clarify the "path" you speak of as AIM has made huge advances for "tournament" fishing never seen before, the number of sponsors they have acquired to run a circuit is very commendable, they don't have all their eggs in one basket.
As for the FLW....I think everyone is SOOOO excited (actually shocked is a better word) to see that Walmart decided to renew this year that they are just happy to get it. The path is the same in my mind, and the "Brand" you speak of is not Walmarts Fishing department but Walmart as a whole, If you think Walmart invested in fishing tournemants to promote or increase hook and bobber sales you really don't know what were talking about here, but I love your passion.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 9/5/2010 8:01 PM
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| when i get back from my bussines trip , i will explain in more detail about the path tyee i do understand what you mean , i will chat with you guys when i get back. Thanks Jim | |
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| TYEE, THATS EXCATLEY WHAT I'M MEAN , YOU UNDERSTAND IT BUT YOU R STILL MISSING THE MAIN OBJECTIVE , THERE FISHING DEPARTMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, EVERYONE IS MISSING THE SUBJECT, AND I PROMISSED SOMEONE I WILL NOT TELL, AT LEAST FOR LITTLE WHILE. UNTILL EVRYONE GETS PAST THIS THIS ONE ISSUE, WALLEYE TOURNAMENTS WON'T GROW. IF YOU ARE GOOD AT MARKETING, YOU WILL KNOW WHATS GOING ON, NEXT YEAR THE FLW MARKETING I WOULD RATE A 5 FROM A LEVEL FROM 0 TO 10. AIM I WOULD RATE A 3, MWC A 5, MWC IS A LARGE MARKETING AGENCIE THEY DO PGA GOLF OUTINGS ETC,(A LARGE GROUP). 2 YEARS A GO ONE OF OUR FAMILLY COMPANEIES, SPONSORED A RACE CAR, COST WAS JUST UNDER A MILLION DOLLARS FOR 2 YEARS, FOR PUTTING THE NAME ON THE HOOD, AND YOU PROBALLY WOULD NEVER SEE IT UNLEES IT WAS IN A CRASH, SO ARE YOU STILL FOLLOWING ME, THIS ONE COMPANEY GROSSES 60 TO 80 MILLION A YEAR, UNLIKE WALMART WERE JUST A LITTLE FISH IN THE SEA, BUT MY POINT IS BRAND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, I WILL KEEP EXPLAING MORE IN THE NEAR FUTURE I'M SLOW AT TYPING (ONE FINGER TYPING) THANKS JIM | |
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| you promissed you wouldnt tell? WHAT? ok so theres some big secret in how marketing works, and now theres a rating system for the way a circuit does it better than another?? We all know exactly what your talking about in regards to "Brand" and fully understand it, unfortunately your looking at it from the tournament director/circuits point of view and not the individual fisherman/TEAM.....THATS WHERE YOUR BRAND NEEDS TO START! and AIM is much closer to that than you give them credit for.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Yeah, there's a lot of people that "Know" how it's going to work, but nobody that puts actual ideas out there. Either bring something to the table or start your own circuit. It's pretty simple.
Too many that believe things are still good. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Just thought I'd refresh this thread in light of the article by Al Lindner.
Note he's talking rules and enforcement under the realities of today, not marketing, so let's try to keep the two separated here. He obviously feels 'teaming' is a negative, and admits it's a reality. It has been for a very very LONG time. He is advocating banning the practice, states there is strong endemic support from the industry to do so, and advocates mandatory polygraph tests to assist in enforcement of the 'no team, no sharing information after competition begins' proposed rules.
That might just do it, if the circuits and anglers fishing the circuits (there's the big question) are willing to crush the practice.
What say YOU? | |
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| WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ? CHEATING IN TOURNAMENTS? OR HOW TO MAKE TOURNAMENTS BIGGER WITH LARGER PAYOUTS? THERE NOTHING HIDDEN, THOSE PRACTICES HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. THE ONLY WAY TO STOP IT, IS TO MAKE ALL KIND OF RULES, AND ANY ONE THAT PLACES IN THE MONEY TAKE A POLY, I DON'T THINK (MY OPNION) TOURNAMENTS DON'T CARE,, PUTTING TAGS IN THE MOUTH, THAT DON'T STOP CHEATING, AND I CAN GO ON AND ON, SO LETS MAKE UP A RULES COMMITTE AND MAKE UP A BUNCH OF RULES, (MAYBE LIKE ABOUT 100 RULES AND GET A GOOD POLY MACHINE AND I THINK WERE GOOD TO GO,, ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED) I' JUST MIGHT TAKE A CLASS AT LOCAL TECH COLLEGE TO GET CETIFIED ON POLY.A POSSIBLE MONEY MAKER HERE. NOW THERES A CAN OF WORMS. | |
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| Enforcement will be the number one issue.
Conflict of interest and greed will also affect the enforcement issue....it has in the past and it will in the future. The lack of integrity and honestly in walleye fishing is why it won't grow. Money is a powerful thing. | |
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| I think Al hit it exactly. But if that won't work, they need to promote the teams for what they are. | |
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