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My opinion is; networking is a tool the experienced anglers use to put the odds in their favor.
The poll question: do you believe networking "taints" a win, should it be the reason for winning?
Edited by Rick Larson 11/18/2003 9:15 PM
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| Life is networking. Success in all venues depend on people skills that create a network of supporting actors. The play goes on, mirroring sport and life.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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| Never thought of fishing as a team sport (as in teams of boats pooling resources and information to tilt the odds in their favor). Also don't believe fishing tournaments were designed in this fashion. If guys want to network, someone should start a "networked circut." Otherwise, you're supposed to find and fish your own fish. You do anything else, and I lose respect for you and any victory / winnings should come with an asterisk. | |
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Location: Chisago City MN | Networking can mean more than one thing. Some call networking sharing some general info during pre-fishing. To me networking is sharing prize money and contracts that require an angler to share his experence and pre-fish knowlage with others in a network. To this extent I feel things have gone too far. The problem is that some of the sponsors encorage or even require you to share 100% with other anglers on thier team. The new B.A.S.S. rule is the best thing to come from that circuit in a long time. IMHO | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Sharing information is an essential when it comes to tournament walleye fishing. The advantages gained by sharing information with partners, not to mention the number of great people I've met because of it, greatly outweighs any negative feelings that occur due to the sharing. I'm betting that those who do not like the idea of sharing information are the ones who have not done it and gained by doing it. Sounds like a case of sour grapes. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | xxl,
You say you lose respect for anyone who as incurred winnings due to networking. Well, take a look at the top 200 list and point to one angler who is on it who does not network. I'd be surprised if you find any. | |
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Jerry, your post was great until I got to the last sentence. Why do you think putting a poll up about a relavent subject would be sour grapes?
We are not taking a vote for its demise....
Edited by Rick Larson 11/19/2003 12:09 PM
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| Networking is the unfortunate way of the tournament world. It's SO bad that an un-named pro angler who wanted to be at my charity event did not come because his "network" was angry at him missing equal pre-fishing. So now an adult pro fisherman doesn't show up to a charity event that he verbally committed to because his team mates throw a fit. There's the pro fishing world going in reverse.
When I started fishing the MWC, in the friday night meeting you were told "All talking to other competators is over right now". But so many people didn't adhear to the rule it became uninforcable. I am hoping the BASS pros can come near the golf pro's when it comes to a self policing body of participants. Golf pros have called penalties on themselves that have cost them thousands and thousands of dollars even when nobody else saw the infraction. I hope BASS has good luck with their new rule changes. The off limits for 30 days rule squelches local advantage and 3 days of prefishing with zero help from other participants keeps as level a playing field as possible. After all, we are talking about fishermen. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Rick,
My "sour grapes" reference was related to Slip Bobber's comments, not the poll. I should have addressed my comments directly to him. Sorry. | |
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| First, in direct response to Jerry, yes sir, I did say that I lose respect for any tournament angler who incurs winnings and/or status as a result of his/her networking activities. If it is indeed true that everyone in the Top 10, Top 50 or Top 200 polls networks, that fact is irrelevant to me. While I do follow walleye tournaments, it is because I love the sport of walleye fishing; I love to learn new techniques; I love to learn the habits and tendencies of these elusive fish. However, I DO NOT practice any form of hero worship. While some of the pros are very good at what they do, for the most part they are not that different from you, me, or anyone else reading this post. Therefore, their standing in the Top 200 is of little interest to me. However, given the current state of walleye tournament fishing, if an angler (any angler) made the list on his/her own, that accomplishment would be much more impressive in my eyes than someone who made the list with a networking aid.
While on the subject, just a couple thoughts on the Top 200. First, I fully support the right of the administrators of this site to institute any poll or ranking system of their choosing. This system is obviously of interest to many people here and on Walleye Central, so have fun. Again though, these rankings mean little to me personally (maybe it goes back to my hero worship comment earlier). At this point, the system feels like a "black-box." I haven't seen the ranking model. To my knowledge, the mathematics behind the model have not been made public, therefore no one can evaluate the validity of said model. Furthermore, the weightings given to specific tournaments (PWT vs. RCL; Championship vs. NonChampionship) are also not public, and could be considered rather arbitrary at this point. For this ranking system and model to advance in relevance and popularity, more disclosure is needed. Maybe that's forthcoming....I hope so.
Now back to the question at hand - Networking. The practice is obviously widespread. That fact alone does not make it right. Additionally, just because a rule is "difficult to enforce,' does not mean that a society, a regulatory body, or a walleye tournament fishing organization for that matter should not implement such a rule. It's a sad but true fact that in the world in which we live, people will always push the envelope (witness steroid use in professional sports, ballot rigging in public elections, insider stock trading and fraud in corporate America, late trading and market timing in the mutual fund industry to name a few). As a result, regulation is needed, laws must be invoked and enforced, and rules must be implemented. These regulations, laws, and rules must also be flexible and open to revision and change when needed. In this regard, professional walleye fishing needs to review its stance on networking. Networking as I view it (examples include group marking of maps, coordinated pre-fishing and tournament-day fishing, hiring or soliciting of pre-fishing help, sharing of information at any time, and splitting of winnings) while not "illegal," clearly is not within the spirit of the rules of the circuts and tournaments that exist today. As a result, I believe networking is damaging to tournament fishing in general. It creates the perception (in fact, the reality) of an uneven playing field - a stacked deck - a rigged system, and left unchecked this will become a big problem for walleye tournament fishing. Forget not your audience or customer - - its the general public - - and the general public appreciates fair play...nothing less.
Before someone jumps on me as being anti-tournament, let me assure you that I am not. I fish local tournaments (including the biggies), and do quite well - ON MY OWN. It is precisely this networking problem (and my aversion to it) that has given me pause in taking my tournament fishing aspirations to the next level. If the sport comes "clean," I'll give her a shot, but not before.
The winds of change are blowing. BASS's new initiative is proof of that. I call on the PWT, RCL, smaller circuts, and you as professional anglers and tournament fishermen to follow suit. Our sport will be stronger for it.
Regards. xxl. | |
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| xxl,
Well worded and stated opinion. Clear, and to the point.
What you say is so true. If you are not on a "team", with the size waters you have to cover at any given tournament, you don't stand much of a chance nowdays. Tournaments are supposed to be the measure of an individual. Who is the better angler, not, what team works the best? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Very well put, xxl. Some points I agree wholeheartedly with, other I do not. Unfortunately, I do not have time to elaborate right now. I will try before I leave for deer hunting. | |
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Ok jerry, np. I should have got that. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | xxl,
I applaud your thoughts and your ability to communicate them. You've given great insight and a solid perspective. A useful dialogue can only be accomplished with diverse opinions with merit.
I need to "hash" over your ideas. This is a good thing!
Thanks for the insight and courage to represent an opinion that may not be shared by the masses. You’ve made me think further.
Edited by Sunshine 11/19/2003 3:06 PM
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Very good post xxl.
The point of these "networkers" having the deck stacked in their favor is the truth. And the high finishes are not an award just to the individual, but to his/her network.
If anything, there may be some measure of deception in the whole walleye tournament arena, in that the award goes to the individual (to fuel the hero worship). When the fact is, the award was won because of the sharing of information that was done prior to the event.
Would even go so far as to suggest, some rules (or lack thereof), are simply a function of long time "vested" anglers who need to be able to have the odds stacked in their favor.
But that being said. These rules are a function brought about by the consumer - reacting to these tournament anglers - in buying the products of the sponsors. As long as the market reacts favorably to those tournament anglers up on stage receiving that first place award, the lack of rules governing networking will not change. And to have a decent chance of a high finish in a major tournament, networking as a tool should be considered.
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Do you know the history/story of the first Bassmasters Classic? Maybe Ray Scott and Bob Cobb had greater insight and vision than we give them credit for?
In May 1967, Ray Scott and Bob Cobb met face-to-face at a press conference in Springdale, Ark.; a meeting that would change the shape of the bass fishing world. True to his vision, Scott, with Cobb as his co-pilot, launched bass fishing from a casual recreation pastime into a world of high-stakes cast-for-cash competition.
The idea of the Classic championship was spawned on a drive from Montgomery to attend an Atlanta-tackle show. "We'd been hosting bass tournaments, but the outdoor press was slow to warm up to the fact of fishing as a competitive sport," recalls Cobb. "We started lobbing ideas around, on the way to Atlanta."
The short version of the story is that Scott and Cobb formulated a plan to pick the top anglers from the BASSMASTER tournaments to fish in a season-ending championship. The press would be invited to serve as press anglers. "The hook in the invitation to get the press to attend, says Cobb, "was that neither the press nor anglers would know the location of the championship lake." The entire field of anglers along with the media loaded up a on a plane with no idea on where they were headed.
For the record, Classic I at Lake Mead near Las Vegas, Nevada did catch the attention of the media. "The idea of dropping the qualifiers into a lake with complete blackout notice and matching them with identical bass boat rigs was the ultimate bass fishing test," says Cobb.
Thus, the Classic became instantly known as the "Test-Of-The-Best." Truly, a challenge to the skill of a bass angler to find and catch fish on a totally "strange" body of water with absolutely zero outside assistance.
But, because of the popularity of the Classic, the format evolved from a closely guarded secret location into a mega-week-long attraction hosted by press-hungry cities and Chamber of Commerce boosters.
Now, as they say, You know the rest of the story.
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| Rick -
I don't know the full extent of your specific thoughts on this subject, so feel free to respond. However, I believe that in the absence of networking, walleye fishing tournaments would still exist. Winners would still be crowned. Checks would still be cut. Manufacturers and sponsors would still be able to attach their stickers, patches, logos, and products to the anglers of their choosing. And the consumer would still buy products that are proven productive or well marketed. The only difference in a "non-networking" world would be that "the man" would be rewarded, not "the team." The "best fisherman" would win, not the "fisherman that is best connected." There would be no perceived or real conflicts of interest and the playing field would be level. I personally would find a non-networked format much more interesting to observe and/or much more enjoyable to compete in. BASS obviously believes this is a doable system, and I'll bet the manufactureres of bass tackle and bass boats explicitly signed on behind the scenes. The walleye world should pay attention and adjust accordingly.
Thanks to Rick and everyone else for your kind compliments. You can probably tell that I'm passionate about this subject!
Regards-
xxl | |
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xxl,
Your passion and skills in describing the current tournament model are oh so very good! Absolutely agree that tournaments would go on, absent networking. Even more, I will come to your defence - as your words ring true.
However, a few of us bantering these thoughts about will not effect change. And reality is - as long as it is allowed - networking is such an advantage an angler entered in a tournament must consider plugging into one, to even the odds of having a high finish.
Course, then you have to consider "the level" of those you network with, and other personality variables...
Reminds me of the political scene in Washington DC. A BIG MESS! 
Edited by Rick Larson 11/19/2003 4:36 PM
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| You're right Rick, one or two men alone probably cannot effect change. But then again, change must start somewhere. For now, I'll voice my opinions and vote with my feet (ie. not participate in the circuits that condone networking). I know that you've chosen to fish the PWT, even under these less-than-fair circumstances. That's your prerogative. As a relative newcomer trying to break in, it would seem that you would have a vested interest in the reforms that I advocate, but I'm not to judge. A gentlemen's bet says that as the public becomes more informed, change will be effectuated. If correct, i'll be waiting, first in line, entry fee in hand.
xxl | |
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Location: Westland, Mich. | i have few problems with networking and endorse its use, especially during prefishing. a new to tournament fishing angler is at a decided disadvantage without it. it's a great way to get familiar with a new body of water and the presentations needed to fish it. My big problem is in tournaments where anglers are eliminated after a day or two of competition. I’m aware that some team members have stuck around to help the others instead of going home. I find that aspect of it very distasteful. I think that some rules should be instituted to limit the scope of networking. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Jake,
I have witnessed the occurance of "partners" sticking around and holding spots for their counterparts on Day 3 and 4 of tournaments. This happened at the RCL at Winnebago in 2002. It is unfortunate and should be reported to the tournament director. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
xxl,
I re-read your post and agree with some of the things you wrote, especially the part about tournament sharing of information during the tournament. The use of cell phones, hand signals, and tailpiping need to be eliminated ASAP. They are practices that are not allowed and should also be reported to the tournemant director.
The part I do not agree with are the actions you dislike before the tourney starts. The sharing of information between fisherman during prefish, the marking of maps, visiting baitshops and talking to locals, reading internet reports, local newspaper reports, and any other way information is obtained is well within the rules of both major circuits, and is an accepted practice by all competitors. A couple other things:
1. I never said you were into "hero worship". I only referred to the top 200 list because you said you would lose respect for those who have victory/winnings due to networking.
2. I looked through the rules for both the PWT and RCL circuits for 2003. The subject of sharing information before a tournament is not brought up in their literature. The only mention by either circuit is that fisherman catch their own fish on their own. I am sure this hasn't been a problem on either circuit.
In closing, I can tell you from conversations I've had with Sonny Reynolds of the RCL that he too hates the networking idea. He's an old bass man and they wouldn't permit this to happen on their circuit. I do not see it stopping on any of the walleye circuits, and, to tell you the truth, I hope it does not stop. | |
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| Interesting to me that the most VOCAL supporters of the networking system are not the big name pros who utilize it heavily - probably because it is the walleye fishing industry's dirty little secret. These high profile anglers would be foolish to draw attention to a controversial practice that lines their pockets with cash and provides them with lucrative sponsorship arrangements.
Likewise, it doesn't seem that networking enjoys the support of the informed "average joe." It's this individual that is most likely to call a spade a spade, and knows a skunk when he smells one.
Instead, the most VOCAL supporters of networking seem to be the entry level pros and those who I would refer to as casual tournament fishermen. As a generalization, this is the person who is trying to break into big time tournament fishing or has aspirations of doing so. Seems these guys typically have fished a handful of tournaments, either as a pro or as a co. Why is it that this subset of the walleye angling population is most supportive? There are several possible reasons. Perhaps it's as Jake stated - due to a lack of experience or unfamiliarity with tournament venues, this angler may be competitively disadvantaged without help from a network. I still maintain that in this situation, it's the networks that are the disease, not the cure. Or, maybe these fisherman have had a small taste of the "forbidden fruit" of networking and cashed a check with help. Through their initial tournament experiences or through casual observation the may have witnessed the fame (and occasional riches) that come to those who network, and desire the same for themselves. Or, maybe these fishermen are just afraid to bite the hand that might one day feed them. They don't make waves, don't rock the boat, and go with the flow. They're the new guy after all, who are they to try and initiate change? And if they play nice, someone might throw them a bone one day.
I can only speculate as to why people support an activity that has the potential to severely damage the sport that we've all grown to love. While my feelings are probably stronger than most, I know I'm not alone. The long-term integritiy of walleye fishing as a competitive sport is at stake here.
With that, xxl signing off while things are still friendly. Off to practice the team sport of pheasant hunting for a week! Remember this gentlemen, visionaries rarely follow! I may be idealistic, but I sleep well at night.
Regards. | |
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This thread has generated some very interesting thinking. Much to consider, thanx guys! | |
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Location: Chisago City MN | Originally written by jerry on 2003-11-19 12:02 PM
Sharing information is an essential when it comes to tournament walleye fishing.
WHAT??? Some do just fine with out networking.
My post was not meant to be "sour grapes". When other competitive sports play their game there is either a team or there isn't. Even in NASCAR the team word is not taboo. they're are not ashamed of it. In tournament fishing members of a true network do not like to talk about it. Most of us know who they are but it's kept quiet. My post was ment to point out that while some sponsors are requiring team members to share info and prize money nothing is going to change. | |
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| Did I miss something? After reading the rules on the BASS site, I see nothing that prohibits the Pro's from sharing information with each other once the official practice period has started. The information ban only applies to the practice period, much like we deal with in the PWT Championship. Although bass are different than walleyes, and may be easier to pattern and catch, wouldn't this rule actually encourage networking among the Pro's? Jim Carroll NPAA#588 | |
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Jim,
Didn't read the Bass new rules. But you post that the ban exsists only in the practice period, then contradict this by typing you see nothing that prohibits this.
Did you inadvertantly add a word to your post? | |
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| Sorry...I meant to say during the "closed" period... Revision here:
Did I miss something? After reading the rules on the BASS site, I see nothing that prohibits the Pro's from sharing information with each other once the official practice period has started. The information ban only applies to the CLOSED practice period, much like we deal with in the PWT Championship. Although bass are different than walleyes, and may be easier to pattern and catch, wouldn't this rule actually encourage networking among the Pro's? Jim Carroll NPAA#588 | |
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| Eliminate or shorten pre-fish and I would speculate that you were reinforce a pro's need for networking. Networking can, but may not be, an equalizer against those who are fishing home waters with a built in network of family and friends. As I have stated on other posts, I think dropping good fisherman on new waters, with equal pre-fish time is an neat idea, but the reality is that the seasoned pros all have a built in advantage in that many have fished popular tournament waters numerous times. It might be that those breaking into the tourney game need networks to get up to speed and be competitive. Unless we come up with a whole lot of acceptable new water (housing, local approval, organizational capabilities, etc) the same waters will generate the most activities and the cycle will continue.
Take care,
Jim O
Edited by Jim Ordway 11/20/2003 10:26 PM
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Networking in Tournaments