|
|
Member
Posts: 240
Location: La Crescent, MN | http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/ | |
| | |
|
Yeah, being a co-angler has been my best experience fishing tournaments. Wish I could turn back the clock and just continued to have fished the big tournaments as an amateur (had a moment of weakness!).
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rick Larson on 2003-12-15 4:58 PM
Yeah, being a co-angler has been my best experience fishing tournaments. Wish I could turn back the clock and just continued to have fished the big tournaments as an amateur (had a moment of weakness!).
Rick.
I'd like to see the Co-Anglers participation in the whole thing changed. Lets face it other than a learning experience for $500.00+ bucks, he simply tosses the dice with 2 or 3 different team mates throughout the contest. Goes from killing them on day one using bottom bouncers with teammate #1, to the Big skunk on day two with (Rube) who won't bottom bounce if his life depended on it. Then the guy who got skunked on both the first days (and learned nothing), gets teamed with the best stiff rod and sweeps the ameture field.
He's almost better off hireing a guide for two days on the same body of water, and then hitting the casino on day three. He'll learn as much or more and may get lucky and jackpot out on day three.
Edited by walleye express 12/15/2003 4:44 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 714
| I understand what you are saying, but I have to say, you suprise me. After almost a year and a half of reading your words, you have for the first time shown some cynicism in one of your posts. LOL
Thats OK though, you're still light years ahead of me. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by JLDII on 2003-12-15 7:12 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I have to say, you suprise me. After almost a year and a half of reading your words, you have for the first time shown some cynicism in one of your posts. LOL
Thats OK though, you're still light years ahead of me.
Jack.
There are some things I feel very strongly about, and I'm no angle
believe me. Only since I became 50, do I think things over longer before acting. Lesser trouble, fewer black eyes.  I've always felt strongly (for the money) that they should give the amatures a little more latitude than they do.
Edited by walleye express 12/15/2003 6:46 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 526
Location: blue mounds,wisc | on the am side of things i have learned alot from some ,and learned that i can out fish half of the field. sometimes i wished i could throw the so called pro out of the boat. in the PWT if info could be shared like the RCL it would be alot fairer for the am that knows what the heck is going on and rewarded by catching fish.i have went on many boat rides watching the field land fish when my pro didnt know how to fish leadcore.or spent all of his time prefishing in the sandusky river at port clinton than tell me he didnt know about the open water bite that was going on. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 714
| Yeah, I understand what you mean. I fished a PWT a couple years ago as a co-angler, just to see what it was like. When it was done I was glad I did it, but was convenced I wouldn't do it again. Now I just trade services with other guides that are interested in a trade off. It works alot better for everyone. If ever you want to see Mille Lacs, I'd love to see "the Bay". | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by JLDII on 2003-12-15 7:52 PM
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I fished a PWT a couple years ago as a co-angler, just to see what it was like. When it was done I was glad I did it, but was convenced I wouldn't do it again. Now I just trade services with other guides that are interested in a trade off. It works alot better for everyone. If ever you want to see Mille Lacs, I'd love to see "the Bay".
Jack.
We have a night time walleye spring bite on the Bay you might like. Or if catching 50 to 75 Smallies a day up to 6 pounds interest you, we could arrange something on the Tittabawassee River. Both have a narrow window of opportunity. Say April 1st to May 5th usually. You could even pick up that Waskilly Wabbit Rick Larsen, and you and him could split the gas cost.
I don't see me taking advantage of your counter offer, unless Late September/Early October is a good time on Millacs. But that wouldn't bother me. I'm always fishing by myself a lot during the spring, keeping in touch with where the fish are for clients. Heres my web site address. Click on Night Eyes and Tittabawassee Bass and tell me wich one you'd like best. http://www.fishsaginawbay.com
Edited by walleye express 12/15/2003 7:19 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 714
| Originally written by walleye express on 2003-12-15 7:15 PM
Originally written by JLDII on 2003-12-15 7:52 PM
Yeah, I understand what you mean. I fished a PWT a couple years ago as a co-angler, just to see what it was like. When it was done I was glad I did it, but was convenced I wouldn't do it again. Now I just trade services with other guides that are interested in a trade off. It works alot better for everyone. If ever you want to see Mille Lacs, I'd love to see "the Bay".
Jack.
We have a night time walleye spring bite on the Bay you might like. Or if catching 50 to 75 Smallies a day up to 6 pounds interest you, we could arrange something on the Tittabawassee River. Both have a narrow window of opportunity. Say April 1st to May 5th usually. You could even pick up that Waskilly Wabbit Rick Larsen, and you and him could split the gas cost.
I don't see me taking advantage of your counter offer, unless Late September/Early October is a good time on Millacs. But that wouldn't bother me. I'm always fishing by myself a lot during the spring, keeping in touch with where the fish are for clients. Heres my web site address. Click on Night Eyes and Tittabawassee Bass and tell me wich one you'd like best. http://www.fishsaginawbay.com
Either one would be fine with me. I guess I'll have to touch base with Rick and see what he would like to do. As for late Sept. Oct. on Mille Lacs, mostly a night time trolling bite. Nothing to really get worked up about. 10-20 fish/night mostly between 20-26". An occasional bigger one 28+", and sometimes a slot -17".
| |
| | |
|
Guys, I just want to go fishing. Wherever, whenever, with whomever!
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 1188
Location: Chicago IL. | Colleen, Awsome reading. Nice job and see you next year. John Mannerino | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 389
| Great article Colleen! You gave some great advice. Very nice writing woman. 
Best of luck next year!
Juls | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. |
Either one would be fine with me. I guess I'll have to touch base with Rick and see what he would like to do. As for late Sept. Oct. on Mille Lacs, mostly a night time trolling bite. Nothing to really get worked up about. 10-20 fish/night mostly between 20-26". An occasional bigger one 28+", and sometimes a slot -17".
Jack.
Those are some impressive numbers and sizes my friend. Can't say I can promise much better on the Bay. I'll challenge most people on the river for smallies though. I've taken guys that have been on Erie and to canada, and they say it's the best.... | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 874
Location: Neenah, WI | Great article. I've fished the PWT as an amateur and a pro and this article should be read by all participants. | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 389
| Capt. Dan,
What would you suggest the Pro/Ams do? How would you suggest they change the format? What do you have in mind that would make it an even playing field for the Co-Angler or Am.? It's easy to give an uncomplimentary opinion on the way things are right now, but it is not so easy to have the options or answers to make conditions better. Any suggestions other than hiring a guide and hitting a casino?
Larry,
Since when is sharing information in the RCL allowed? As far as I know, the rules are the same as the PWT's, when it comes to that. Am I missing something?
Juls
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 3899
| I have fished 4 events as a co-angler, and this is pretty good reading.
I think the sharing that Larry is referring to is any information a co-angler may have on a particular body of water, but not that he/she obtained from the previous day's partner. I believe the PWT is more stringent in that the Pro calls all the shots, and the co-angler has absolutely no input as to location or presentation. I do not believe the RCL is so cut and dried, and the co-angler can help with information. Again, as long as it didn't come from the previous day's Pro.
As far as making it even, or fair for the co-anglers? Not gonna happen. I would guess that the RCL and the PWT are pretty much the same here, although with the PWT going to a field of the top 100 qualified pro's, this will, perhaps reduce the number of, shall we say, unqualified "Pro's". Reduce, not eliminate. I do agree, there are some Pro's in these events, that a co-angler would be unlucky to draw. But that is the way it goes. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I dare say that every co-angler that has won, has had the luck of the draw on their side. It's just the way it is.
That being said, I have thus far sucked at the draw, with one guy being the exception. But one of these times........
Edited by Shep 12/16/2003 1:21 PM
| |
| | |
|
Being a co-angler is much like hiring a guide. Both are very easy in that all you need to do is show up and hop in someone else's boat.
The real difference lies in that as a co-angler, one has the chance to win a good prize, or a chunk of change while fishing. On the other hand, fishing with a guide nearly guarantees you will learn intimate knowledge of the water the guide works on, as well as a better chance to catch fish.
One other point in favor of entering a big contest as a co-angler; you have a chance to be on TV! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Juls_OH on 2003-12-16 12:40 PM
Capt. Dan,
What would you suggest the Pro/Ams do? How would you suggest they change the format? What do you have in mind that would make it an even playing field for the Co-Angler or Am.? It's easy to give an uncomplimentary opinion on the way things are right now, but it is not so easy to have the options or answers to make conditions better. Any suggestions other than hiring a guide and hitting a casino?
Larry,
Since when is sharing information in the RCL allowed? As far as I know, the rules are the same as the PWT's, when it comes to that. Am I missing something?
Juls
O.K.Cuz.
Remember you ask for my imput. I fished as an amature one time on Saginaw Bay and didn't care for it. The Pro had $250.00 more than me, so he was the pro and in control. I was delegated to be a human Rod Holder and Auto Pilot. The am's entry money is hard earned, and is only (at times) slightly less than the Pro's money and not supplied by sponsors in most cases. This post will of course have me on the blocks for a while I'm sure.
#1.Co-anglers will be allowed to make suggestions, even run his own two rods the way and with what he wants to use on them if he desires, as long as the technique is adaptable with Pro's chosen fishing method.
#2.He will have imput in the decision making process as to when and where to move. I'd guess that 75% of the am's in any tournament are people who both know and fish the area that that tourney waters is on.
#3.He will definetly have a say as to how fast and safely the pro's boat gets to run across 4 foot waves, while the Pro's Ride-Glide seat gives him a nice ride, while twisting and compacting the crap out of the vertibrate of the am next to him/her. Nothing like paying $500.00 for the privilage of repeated daily visits to the chiropracters after the tourney is over.
#4.The am's will win 1st through 10th prize money and trophys each day of the tourney, instead of the grand prize winner at the end, who got the best Pro draws for three consecutive days. Each place will be awarded points versus pounds that will be added for the grand prize at the end of the tourney. A guy finishing 5th 6th an 9th could win the whole deal at the end, and deservidly so. Obviously this will result in lesser expensive prize packages, but more am's will get press, and will be made to feel a bigger more importnat part of the excitment.
These are just the one's I've thought about for a few years now. Give me time and I'll write a little book. Jul's I don't have to tell you, I both respect and love you and Rick. You guys through hard work, are where many of the regular fishing guys dream of being.
I also know (because of what I do part time) it's not all bright lights and glory. I believe the big tourneys are simply selling a chance to Joe Blow to have an expensive picture taken with a pro at most of these tourneys, given their exsisting rules. While at the same time, using the money taken in by them, to subsidise the bigger prizes and glory for the Pro's.
I could write a very long post about the differences betwen what I do and what you do. Along with the differences in (quality/learning time spent on the water) when it come to paying cutomers versus tourney partners with each. Also know, I hope nothing I've written here changes anything between us. These are only my honest feelings, and you did ask for my imput, remember?
Edited by walleye express 12/16/2003 4:38 PM
| |
| | |
|
HaHa! Not sure that I love you in return!
Although you are a great poster and represent your trade very well! | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rick Larson on 2003-12-16 3:43 PM
HaHa! Not sure that I love you in return!
Although you are a great poster and represent your trade very well!
Sorry Rick.
I meant Rick LaCourse, Jul's husband and my cusin.....:-)
We'll examine our options only after we fish together and I see how nice your boat is ..hehehe.
Edited by walleye express 12/16/2003 3:28 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 538
| I like all your suggestions Dan. A few years back I did the eastern div of the PWT and enjoyed the experience. Of the nine days, only a few stood out as interesting and fun days, the others were hopeful days of slogging around hoping to find fish. Still, it proved to me that we all have bad days, no matter how much your entry fee was. Regarding sharing information, I doubt that the AM has no input in location and technique. As I recall, most everyone I fished with asked what I thought about the program, especially, if the days plan had fallen apart. (usually by about 10:30 AM) Certainly, we all must respect other competitors confidentiality, but we all are in the same boat, so to speak, and we are trying to put some weight topside. Your point of spending the 500 on a guide might be a better percentage bet, but I would still be willing to spin the wheel to spend a few days with the top guns in the PWT. I would guess an AM has about a 30% chance of getting a top competitor. So far I am 900% behind the odds.
Take care,
Jim O
Edited by Jim Ordway 12/16/2003 2:59 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 389
| Why would anything you write change things between us? LOL For gosh sakes man, get a hold of yourself.
You gave me what I was asking for. I can see some promise to one of your suggestions, but the rest I don't see as workable. I'll leave it at that, because as you said, we could end up with some very long posts.
I was just curious as to what you thought would be a better way of doing things for the ams and co's. You came through. Thanks. Sorry, if I sounded offended by anything you wrote. I didn't mean to sound that way.
Luv you 2 Cuz!
Juls
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Juls_OH on 2003-12-16 5:37 PM
Why would anything you write change things between us? LOL For gosh sakes man, get a hold of yourself.
You gave me what I was asking for. I can see some promise to one of your suggestions, but the rest I don't see as workable. I'll leave it at that, because as you said, we could end up with some very long posts.
I was just curious as to what you thought would be a better way of doing things for the ams and co's. You came through. Thanks. Sorry, if I sounded offended by anything you wrote. I didn't mean to sound that way.
Luv you 2 Cuz!
Juls
Juls.
Nope, you didn't come off as being mad at me in your post, nor did I take it that way. Lets face it, you are on the other side of the fence on this issue, like it or not. And I realize some of the things I suggested takes the reigns out of the Pro's hands during the tourneys.
In that case, I suggest that they start a new group to fish with the Pro's called helpers/watchers. For way less money they get to fish with a pro and simply watch, help and learn for the minimal cost. This is supposed to be the big drawing card to fish with a Pro anyway right?
I'll bet there would never be a short list for amatures/watchers/helpers in any event anywhere. And 149 of the 150 amatures would get the same prize they get now.
And believe me, I'm not trying to cheapon the efforts, time and sacrificies Pro fishing for any specie takes. But sharing the experiences, promoting tourneys and spreading the joys of fishing with the public in a more inclusive fasion, would go farther with the general public if a few restrictions and rules were changed.
Edited by walleye express 12/16/2003 5:05 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 874
Location: Neenah, WI | Dan,
You made some suggestions that are worth looking at. I think that having some cash in the pot for the amateurs would be a good thing. As an am I won some stuff that I wouldn't use in a million years. I also won stuff that I use to this day.
As for boat operation- Day 2 at Lake Erie in 2000 they called it after we went out. My am and I had about 40# in the livewell when the call came. The wind, waves and rain were typical Lake Erie stuff. A non tournament boat went down on Niagra reef that day. As we started in my am kept telling me I was going the wrong way. I told him GPS and the compass don't lie and to just relax and we'll make it back ok. As we got closer to Catawba and he saw all the other boats going the same way he did relax and we had a good laugh about it.
As for the fishing itself. If the am made a suggestion based on yesterdays experience with a pro and claimed it was his own idea there could be some very bad consequences for the pro. Making on the water decisions to change presentations due to weather etc. should be the pros job. The am should be supportive and willing to help adapt and "go with the flow".
I learned a lot as an am and fished with some terrific pros. I also fished with a couple of guys I wouldn't want to be in a boat with again.
Colleen made some very good points in her article. Some of the ams I fished with were very good anglers and some were faily new to the game. I just hope that they learned something from me that helps them catch fish in the future. I sure learned a lot from "my" pros.
Good Luck Fishin' | |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Dale on 2003-12-17 6:55 AM
Dan,
You made some suggestions that are worth looking at. I think that having some cash in the pot for the amateurs would be a good thing. As an am I won some stuff that I wouldn't use in a million years. I also won stuff that I use to this day.
As for boat operation- Day 2 at Lake Erie in 2000 they called it after we went out. My am and I had about 40# in the livewell when the call came. The wind, waves and rain were typical Lake Erie stuff. A non tournament boat went down on Niagra reef that day. As we started in my am kept telling me I was going the wrong way. I told him GPS and the compass don't lie and to just relax and we'll make it back ok. As we got closer to Catawba and he saw all the other boats going the same way he did relax and we had a good laugh about it.
As for the fishing itself. If the am made a suggestion based on yesterdays experience with a pro and claimed it was his own idea there could be some very bad consequences for the pro. Making on the water decisions to change presentations due to weather etc. should be the pros job. The am should be supportive and willing to help adapt and "go with the flow".
I learned a lot as an am and fished with some terrific pros. I also fished with a couple of guys I wouldn't want to be in a boat with again.
Colleen made some very good points in her article. Some of the ams I fished with were very good anglers and some were faily new to the game. I just hope that they learned something from me that helps them catch fish in the future. I sure learned a lot from "my" pros.
Good Luck Fishin'
Thank's Dale.
I myself have gotten so many "Which way did we come out's" from charter customers, I enjoy playing the "Where are we now" game with them sometimes to break the fishless monotony. I'd never suggest that the total boat control be turned over to amatures, especially during times when life or death conditions prevail. Even I bow to the man's wishes and orders who's boat I am on for the day, when I'm an invited guest. Nobody should know his boats limitations and equipment better than himself.
I'd like to see what would happen if the format was changed though. Call it "fish with a Pro" or "learn with a Pro". Where the entry money is significantly reduced and you just fish one of the days out of the 2 or 3. That increases the amature field by 2 or 3 depending on the event. The Pro's fish with 2 or 3 seperate guys anyway throughout the tourney. All the guys who wanted to do it, but were concerned about the cost and making it through all 2 or 3 days could now do both. I'm sure the local economies wouldn't mind having a few extra guests for the tourney dates.
I'm guessing the extra work involved by tournament staff would shoot down this idea. But I guess when tourneys start having trouble filling the amature spots (like some do already) some things will change for the better for the beginner and the little guy.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Dan,
Don't take this question the wrong way. I'm real curious as to why you entered the tournament in the first place. My take is that most people who enter a tournament do so for three primary reasons.
1. They want to learn more about that particular body of water.
2. They're considering going "Pro" and want to know if they have what it takes and want a better understanding of what it's all about.
3. They want an opportunity to fish with the people having celebrity status.
Reading your posts, I don't see you fitting in any of these categories. What did I miss?
Most people that I talk to, who end up not liking the experience, indicate that the biggest disappointment was fishing with someone that they didn’t know from TV, the web, or magazines. Or they ended up with someone that was not wired in. There is also the occasional person who already knew that body of water and wanted to learn more about it. They become disenchanted because they find out that they knew more about that fishery than any of the Pro’s that they were partnered with.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Sunshine on 2003-12-17 10:38 AM
Dan,
Don't take this question the wrong way. I'm real curious as to why you entered the tournament in the first place. My take is that most people who enter a tournament do so for three primary reasons.
1. They want to learn more about that particular body of water.
2. They're considering going "Pro" and want to know if they have what it takes and want a better understanding of what it's all about.
3. They want an opportunity to fish with the people having celebrity status.
Reading your posts, I don't see you fitting in any of these categories. What did I miss?
Most people that I talk to, who end up not liking the experience, indicate that the biggest disappointment was fishing with someone that they didn’t know from TV, the web, or magazines. Or they ended up with someone that was not wired in. There is also the occasional person who already knew that body of water and wanted to learn more about it. They become disenchanted because they find out that they knew more about that fishery than any of the Pro’s that they were partnered with.
Dennis.
Those are very fair questions, and I plead inwardly quilty to most. It was indeed one of the first few Pro tournies that came to the Saginaw Bay, when I happened to get in. I actually subbed for a friend who after pre-fishing and one day in the actual event, had to drop out because his back couldn't take the pounding anymore.
I was intrigued that most of the contestants were running 35+ miles north, beyond the Charity Islands, and trolling for and catching some real deep water monsters. Those were the first years that Kavasjic (spelling) was slow trolling suspended harnesses and I wanted to add this technique to my arsinal. Nobody else, including myself had to go farther than 2 miles out to limit out back then. But the allure of truly HUGE gators and the free opportunity to go, got the best of me.
I'm sure rubbing elbows with your hero's no matter what sports field their in, means a lot more to some people than others. And we can debate for hours, just how God-like each one is percieved because of his skills, and rather he truly is.
I tell people who see me as some Saginaw Bay sage, I just put in the hours, retain the data, remember and then process the information as well as many and better than most. But, like Gary Gray said last night on the chat on WC. I put my pants on one leg at a time, the same way you guys do every morning.
Edited by walleye express 12/17/2003 4:35 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Thanks for the insight Dan.
I think that we need to take a step back and ask why the pro/co-angler concept was set up in the first place. I’m sure that others like Juls and Johnnie C. have a better handle on this but I’ll take a guess. I’ll say that tournament directors were looking for a better way to monitor the Pro and make sure that they were fishing by the rules. They needed some kind of an observer. The next progression is easy to figure out, they saw how they could charge money from the observer by letting them fish.
Some suggestions that I have read here sound familiar. They’re close to some of the bass fishing tournaments that I’m aware of. Both people in the boat are considered Pro’s, one is the boater and the other is the non-boater, they both have equal access to the front trolling motor but in most situations the non-boater relinquishes the option. The non-boater brings their own equipment. It’s a format that does work in the bass world.
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 284
| Dan:
My dad always told me that "they wipe their butt with toilet paper too" so don't be intimidated. Those are words to live by, especially in the walleye fishing world where many are more equal with the "pros" than they could ever imagine. | |
| | |
| Great article! I learn from everyone I fish with, as much as I can wherter they are a guide, Pro, or friend. A Pro, I would hope, has been on more and different waters that I have across the country, and might know how to adjust to changing condidions on types of lakes and rivers I may never have fished. Experiance is everything, so if I was an amature, I would like to share as much of the Pro's experience as he/she is willing to share. | |
| |
|
A must-read