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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | As a spin-off to my reflector tape thread, I had another theory that I once explored in an article I wrote for the Michigan Steelheader News paper back in the mid 1980's. Back then spoons like Northport Nailers, Geno Spoons and a few other brands were the hot Salmon spoons. 99% of them came with one side always white and the other side having the Greens, Reds, Purples, virtually every color in the rainbow. This colored side also usually had the differnet color reflector tapes over them. It was funny how guys talking about their favorite color would always include what color tape was on the spoon. There just almost seemed to be to many popular spoon color/tape color combinations to be the key to me.
If you've ever watched underwater film on schools of baitfish dodgeing in and out, all moving in conjunction with each other, the thing that catches your eye the best/most is that white flash as they turn away to flee or maneuver with the school. So I thoeorized it wasn't the color on the spoons they were seeing making them strike, but what they were not seeing.
All colors turn dark, almost black when in water depths 12 feet deep or more. The white side, even if changing colors to a degree in the depths, would still throw off the same color as the white sided shad/alewive/smelt/chubs and many other of the fishes usual prey. So the colored side become the blind side of the lure. And as the spoon flips back and forth, it throws off those little glimpses/flashes of familar color (white) the preditors are used to. So I theorize it's not what they are seeing, but what they are not that attracts them.
Edited by walleye express 2/4/2004 11:26 AM
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Well then - WHY IS MY BOX FULL OF DIFFERENT COLORED LURES???????  |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rick Larson on 2004-02-04 1:10 PM
Well then - WHY IS MY BOX FULL OF DIFFERENT COLORED LURES??????? :-)
Might as well tell you the truth Rick.
Lure Companies paint lures to catch us first and fish second. But I somehow think you already knew that.
Edited by walleye express 2/4/2004 12:30 PM
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Location: sheboygan,wisconsin | Dan I will say this all the years I have been on lake michigan one thing I am very sure of is, that silver backed spoons out fish white backed spoons at least two to one. Last year while putting our order togather for Michigan Stinger spoons and talking with Terry Weber about one of his spoons the glow ghost. The first thing we did was have him send us some with silver backs the ones on his website had white backs.The silver backed glow ghost was one of the better baits in our area last year.White backed bait have there time and place I will take all the silver/silver taped baits I can get any day of the week. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by geo on 2004-02-04 1:34 PM
Dan I will say this all the years I have been on lake michigan one thing I am very sure of is, that silver backed spoons out fish white backed spoons at least two to one. Last year while putting our order togather for Michigan Stinger spoons and talking with Terry Weber about one of his spoons the glow ghost. The first thing we did was have him send us some with silver backs the ones on his website had white backs.The silver backed glow ghost was one of the better baits in our area last year.White backed bait have there time and place I will take all the silver/silver taped baits I can get any day of the week.
Geo.
I can't intelligently disagree with you. Back in the 70's and 80's, white one-side ruled. Gotta believe the silver on one side and color on the other would do and give the same (Strobe) baitfish-schooling effect as the white did back then. But in essence, is still what they are not seeing in my opinion once the colored side turns gray or black in the depths.
Edited by walleye express 2/4/2004 2:07 PM
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| Dan,
Keep your old articles coming. Now you have given me something else to ponder while awaiting open water.
Thanks,
Jim O |
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Location: sheboygan,wisconsin | Dan your right what is on the back of a lure does matter that was my point if the fish did not see the flash or color on the back it would make no difference thus that's why I believe silver backs are better than white.
p.s. keep your post coming they are very informative and interesting! |
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Dan buddy, if'n my box was full of white and chrome - it would give me the blahs....BIG TIME! |
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Location: Springfield, MO | Dan, I keep seeing this business about color washing out with depth. I don't think washout occurs on the same scale for a walleye as it does with us. Their eyes are far better adapted (rods and cones) to function in low-light conditions--in fact, it's not even close. They should be able to pick out certain wavelengths even in severely refracted light conditions. So, my question is this: Is it valid to assume that just because WE can't see the color red at 12 feet, the walleyes can't either?
Mike |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by powerdive on 2004-02-04 5:12 PM
Dan, I keep seeing this business about color washing out with depth. I don't think washout occurs on the same scale for a walleye as it does with us. Their eyes are far better adapted (rods and cones) to function in low-light conditions--in fact, it's not even close. They should be able to pick out certain wavelengths even in severely refracted light conditions. So, my question is this: Is it valid to assume that just because WE can't see the color red at 12 feet, the walleyes can't either?
Mike
Mike.
I read a big article once about what walleyes see and what colors they see best. Can't remember all the details in the article but a few facts stuck with me. Walleyes can see 9 times better under water then we humans can. Now rather that ment color, distance, clarity wise or all of the above, I don't remember or it didn't say. The top three colors they see the best are in this order. Orange, Green Chartreuse, Yellow Chartreuse. Just doesn't seem to be enough interest in this area of the fishing game to make a study worth anybodys wild.
I'll bet if sight, color and how they perseve it was a fishes only trigger to feeding, you'd see volums of data on the subject. We as fishermen can only come to our own conclusions through trail and error and our succes or failure.
Edited by walleye express 2/4/2004 5:11 PM
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Location: Berlin | I can tell you this from my own experience. The deeper you fish the less color matters. I do believe color plays a huge factor in triggering a fish to bite. Most of what I read says that size and action over color and for the most part I agree. Then there are the days that walleyes will only hit a trailer trash pink reef runner and not any other color. The funny thing is that on those days, I can put other baits that resemble that color and they will also produce even thought they have different actions and size. To get back to the depth issue, I pretty much only use one color jig and there is not too many times that I fish suspended fish with a jig if you know what I mean. The only difference there is that I usually have live bait to trigger the strikes. I would bet that Dan has a couple deep divers with red hooks though:) |
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Well Dan, ya' really got me on this subject.
Just woke up in a nightmare cold sweat that had me believing I was sitting on the couch dipping all my crankbaits in a big can of white house paint. Not really sure, but think my tears had diluted the paint so much it wasn't sticking to well, and was thinking about all the re-work was going to have to do...
But that wasn't the worse of it as the big pile of prism tape setting at my feet had me wondering just what these last few posts of yours had got me into. Now instead of out fishing, I was spending all my time preparing to go fishing.
Then a funny thing happened, I woke up to find that pail had ICE CREAM stamped on the side of'n it and was only really putting scent on 'em! Yippee - still had all my pretty colors!
Thats when I fell out'a bed and hit my head. I owe ya' buddy - BIG TIME!
Edited by Rick Larson 2/5/2004 4:35 AM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rick Larson on 2004-02-05 4:58 AM
Well Dan, ya' really got me on this subject.
Just woke up in a nightmare cold sweat that had me believing I was sitting on the couch dipping all my crankbaits in a big can of white house paint. Not really sure, but think my tears had diluted the paint so much it wasn't sticking to well, and was thinking about all the re-work was going to have to do...
But that wasn't the worse of it as the big pile of prism tape setting at my feet had me wondering just what these last few posts of yours had got me into. Now instead of out fishing, I was spending all my time preparing to go fishing.
Then a funny thing happened, I woke up to find that pail had ICE CREAM stamped on the side of'n it and was only really putting scent on 'em! Yippee - still had all my pretty colors!
Thats when I fell out'a bed and hit my head. I owe ya' buddy - BIG TIME!
LOL. Good one Rick.
Don't really know why I've always been the Analyzer that I am. It's never seemed good enough for me to know the bait, color, size or technique they were biting on. I always had to do something different, with something different even when I was a kid fishing with my dad. Always wanted to figure out just what the fish found so attractive about what I was doing or using. Since I've gotten older, can't remember why I went to the closet to get the freaking screwdriver, yet can recall every detail and nuonce of what happened on a thousand different successful fishing trips.
Edited by walleye express 2/5/2004 8:35 AM
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| Dan,
I was going to say something about color spectrums best seen by the walleye, but you beat me to the punch. What I sometimes question is the water conditions and how they change the colors a fish might see. I have had times where one day a certain color was the only one that would work, and later that day, or even the next it would not work at all, but a different color would catch fish out of the same locations at the same depth. I theorized that the ripple effect on the surface of the water from the breeze (wind) played a role in which color would work at that time. More than once I have had a bite shut off on me, and switched colors and caught fish again on the same spot without moving. The difference, the surface conditions. While it is easy to understand clouds playing a huge role in the light penetration, I believe that angle of the sun and the size ripple/wave action on the surface play as big, if not bigger role because of the deflection or refraction of the light as it enters the water, and as a result, the depth it will penetrate. It leads me to think that a lure color a walleye sees under one set of conditions is another color to them under different conditions. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by JLDII on 2004-02-05 10:04 AM
Dan,
I was going to say something about color spectrums best seen by the walleye, but you beat me to the punch. What I sometimes question is the water conditions and how they change the colors a fish might see. I have had times where one day a certain color was the only one that would work, and later that day, or even the next it would not work at all, but a different color would catch fish out of the same locations at the same depth. I theorized that the ripple effect on the surface of the water from the breeze (wind) played a role in which color would work at that time. More than once I have had a bite shut off on me, and switched colors and caught fish again on the same spot without moving. The difference, the surface conditions. While it is easy to understand clouds playing a huge role in the light penetration, I believe that angle of the sun and the size ripple/wave action on the surface play as big, if not bigger role because of the deflection or refraction of the light as it enters the water, and as a result, the depth it will penetrate. It leads me to think that a lure color a walleye sees under one set of conditions is another color to them under different conditions.
Jack.
I'd have to agree totally with your theory. To many times while fishing the same spot, with the same colored jigs, with the water conditions being exactly the same as the day before (when we killed them), it took a totally different colors to get them to go. And believe it or not (on my favoriter river) that chosen color 9 times out of 10 is HOT PINK.
Now, I've often wondered just what the heck in a walleyes world attracts them to an Orange or Chartreuse color. BUT WHAT THE HECK COULD BE HOT PINK?
Edited by walleye express 2/5/2004 9:38 AM
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| Dan,
Like I said in my earlier post, how do we know if the "Hot Pink" we see is the same "Hot Pink" the fish see? It might appear to them as a different color all together.
It is also possible that that color might look like a piece of open flesh to a fish, such as a wounded minnow. (Again, if the color they see is the same as the color we see).
BTW, "Hot Pink" is my first "goto" color when my bite shuts off too!! |
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Location: princeton Il. | i think size and action are as big as color. my dad and I had been fishing on the Ill. river all morning and had caught a total of 2 14 inchers when as a joke I pulled out a deep diving Viking lure yes I am a VIKING fan from Ill. that my daughter had because she thought it was neat. my dad a BEAR fan made many comments(cant print what he said) dont know why but in the next 3 passes boated 5, 2 to 4 lb. sauger on that lure not much since but on the slow days when it comes out he doesnt say a word |
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| I seem to recall a PWT tornament on Lake Erie last year where the clarity of the water was bad. Convinced that I needed to use a crank with very visable colors, I and a host of others were using a firetiger pattern on either shallow divers on short lead or deep divers on long leads. I (and a host of others) had no success. However, a genleman named Daryl Christensen (sp.) utilized a blue and white patten crank and won the tourney in low viz conditions.
I've never seen a firetiger color baitfish, oweve I have seen shad, alewifes, etc that are silver blue in color.
I do beleive that lures are marketed to fisherman and not fish.
Rob Stratton |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2004-02-05 12:09 PM
I seem to recall a PWT tornament on Lake Erie last year where the clarity of the water was bad. Convinced that I needed to use a crank with very visable colors, I and a host of others were using a firetiger pattern on either shallow divers on short lead or deep divers on long leads. I (and a host of others) had no success. However, a genleman named Daryl Christensen (sp.) utilized a blue and white patten crank and won the tourney in low viz conditions.
I've never seen a firetiger color baitfish, oweve I have seen shad, alewifes, etc that are silver blue in color.
I do beleive that lures are marketed to fisherman and not fish.
Rob Stratton
Rob.
My feelings exactly. But probably the only way for lure companies to stay in business. I'm one of those (buy three of each) guys. If lets say (Winning Streaks) came in just one color, I may buy 6 of them and no more. Not contributing very much to that companies viability. But if they make 36 colors, I'll probably own 12 different of my favorites, and buy three of each.
When I was on the old Storm Lures writers list for 12 years and could get as many different colors as I wanted, I actually requested very few. I had my favorites and didn't see the value in many of the other (off the wall) colors they made. Their old PR lady "Sharon Andrews" talked me into many of these colors, and some became mine and local favorites on both the rivers I quided on for Salmon and Steeleheads as well as the Saginaw Bay. Tooty Fruity for instance, is still a "Kick A$$" color on the Bay at certain times as is Painted rainbow.
I'm positive Jack is right and the fish see and perseve colors different than we do. But probably only at certain depths in the water column. It will always seem weird to me, as all of us have seen what certain baitfish look like out of the water. And a live perch's colors looks just like the many perch patterns I have in crankbaits. So why would it look different to a fish in the water? But I'm guessing it really does.
Edited by walleye express 2/5/2004 12:11 PM
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| Rob,
While I wasn't there, I was told by some who were that Daryl also found a small stretch of water that was not as dirty as most the surrounding area. That, I would guess played into his success as well. |
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| No doubt that you had to find water that wasn't muck, the fish weren't in the clear water but the stained.
I'm a true beleiver that walleyes feed more on scent and vibration and instinct than sight. If this weren't the case why would a walleye hit a spinner rig? If their vision is ten times what we can see underwater, as has been said, they could certainly "see" that the spinner rig wasn't (a baitfish). It simply smells like food, "feels" like food and is moving like food. The closer we can get our baits to imitate ALL the aspects of their forage (food) the more success we are going to have catching them.
One of my favorite techniques on my local resevoir is to take the hooks off a rattle tot and run a 12" spinner with one hook behind it. Seems like the sound and vibration of the rattle tot attracts their attention and the following spinner with that juicy nightcraler seals the deal. Now that contraption certainly does not "look" like natural food but does "feel" like food to the walleye.
Just my two cents.
Rob |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2004-02-07 2:29 PM
No doubt that you had to find water that wasn't muck, the fish weren't in the clear water but the stained.
I'm a true beleiver that walleyes feed more on scent and vibration and instinct than sight. If this weren't the case why would a walleye hit a spinner rig? If their vision is ten times what we can see underwater, as has been said, they could certainly "see" that the spinner rig wasn't (a baitfish). It simply smells like food, "feels" like food and is moving like food. The closer we can get our baits to imitate ALL the aspects of their forage (food) the more success we are going to have catching them.
One of my favorite techniques on my local resevoir is to take the hooks off a rattle tot and run a 12" spinner with one hook behind it. Seems like the sound and vibration of the rattle tot attracts their attention and the following spinner with that juicy nightcraler seals the deal. Now that contraption certainly does not "look" like natural food but does "feel" like food to the walleye.
Just my two cents.
Rob
Rob.
We've used that same technique on the river fishing for Salmon and Steelheads. And closely immitates that same technique when using my spoon harness rigs. Except a glob of raw spawn is attached to a leader with a treble hook on the back O-ring of the diving crankbait ahead. They started that out west years ago and call it Hot-Shotting. Seems curiosity kills more than just cats in this world.
Edited by walleye express 2/7/2004 5:39 PM
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| WE,
Just curious as to if you've tried OVERSIZED cranks on the bay lately?
Rob |
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Location: Bradford Pa | Originally written by JLDII on 2004-02-04 10:50 AM
Dan,
Like I said in my earlier post, how do we know if the "Hot Pink" we see is the same "Hot Pink" the fish see? It might appear to them as a different color all together.
It is also possible that that color might look like a piece of open flesh to a fish, such as a wounded minnow. (Again, if the color they see is the same as the color we see).
BTW, "Hot Pink" is my first "goto" color when my bite shuts off too!!
Get it straight! Its not hot pink, men DON'T use hot PINK we use BUBBLEGUM color.
hehehe
JG |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2004-02-07 6:51 PM
WE,
Just curious as to if you've tried OVERSIZED cranks on the bay lately?
Rob
Rob.
Back in the late 80's through the early part of the 90's, when me and a couple buds were fishing the first Tourny circuit started on the Bay by Mike Avery/WNEM TV/Channel 5, BIG was the way to go. Our team placed pretty high every year using 1/2 and Magnum 3/4 ounce Tot's and full size T-Sticks. But the waters back then were still like coffee and cream for the most part, before the zebra's invaded.
Since both the phospherus levels on the bay have dropped and the zebra's have filtered/consumed the very thing the baitfish also ate, they have become smaller and easier to see. So the smaller versions crankbait has become the favorite look-a-likes of the foraging walleyes. Biggest thing anybody use's now (in crankbaits) is a Rattle Tot.
The only time Big cranks are in vouge anymore, is the first few weeks in the spring when we're fishing at night for post spawn walleyes. #18 Rapala's are the lure of choice then only because they closely immitate the (Often Huge) spawning smelt that are crusing close to shore.
Edited by walleye express 2/8/2004 9:01 AM
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| Let's go ice fishing! I live in Davison, have never been ice fishing on the bay. Would like to meet ya and get to know you better.
Rob |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2004-02-08 1:59 PM
Let's go ice fishing! I live in Davison, have never been ice fishing on the bay. Would like to meet ya and get to know you better.
Rob
Thanks for the compliment Rob.
If you mean for a ice charter, I'm declining bookings for the rest of the winter season. Unfortunetly, this winter I'm having trouble getting any scheduled ice charter clients out to fish because of the bad travel conditions on the Bay, let alone taking very many trips on my own for the fun of it.
I canceled last weekends trips and did so again this past Saturday, and now again for tomorrow as well because of the deep snow, windy conditions and slush on top the ice. The extra weight of the dog sled and the one to two clients riding in it, makes it that much tougher to tow out with the quad this winter.
Got all three sets of these canceled guys waiting in the wings for any windows of opportunity for the rest of the winter season. I'm guessing I'll have to transfer half of these guys (that will let their deposits ride) to one of my spring river trips for Smallmouths or night time walleye trips on the Bay.
Ya know whats funny? Before I got into guiding/chartering full time. I put many of my friends close to divorce because of their trips with me fishing. Now, they wonder why I never call them anymore.
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| Dan,
I fish the PWT and the MWT, my wife loves to get rid of me! lol
I meant if you wake up soem morning and want to head out let me know.
Rob |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2004-02-08 3:04 PM
Dan,
I fish the PWT and the MWT, my wife loves to get rid of me! lol
I meant if you wake up soem morning and want to head out let me know.
Rob
Rob.
Man, My wanting to head out and fish has happened a lot this winter. I'm starting to get mold spores growing on my A$$ from sitting in the house to much this winter. Got more miles on my 4 wheeler plowing the driveway this year than ice miles. When I think of how productive last winters ice season was versus this one, it really stinks. I'm also starting to get concerned about why the bigger fish haven't started to come into the Saginaw River yet as well.
At least the water tables are predicted to sustain their last years levels and possibly come up a couple inches. We might get to hook up sometime. If your pre-fishing the bay for any tournaments, feel free to contact me for info. I charter with my BIG boat out of Quanicassee in the summer months and stay on the East side of the Bay unless things get tough. Than I'll usually take the 12 mile one way trips to areas farther out.
Edited by walleye express 2/8/2004 4:52 PM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | TTT. |
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It's What They Are Not seeing.