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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Hey, heres a rig that just might work with those keel sinker hitters.
Wulp, you know me. I have to get in on the cutting edge of anything that will even accidentally put fish in the box. So ladies and gentlemen, here it is. The hooked version of the XPS keel sinker. Yup...you to can now catch walleyes not only on the baited harness, but on the weight itself!! No more worries about having the BIGGEST/DUMBEST walleyes making that lead head mistake and getting away with it. It wasn't really that hard to do after using one barrowed to me to duplicate. Only catch is, that only the Golden Shiner vesion is thin enough at the stomach area to modify it in this fasion.
Edited by walleye express 6/21/2004 4:58 PM
Attachments
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 XPS Modified..JPG (55KB - 62 downloads)
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Member
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | This was discussed here before, but since it might save someone a ticket, I'll mention it again.
Running a crawler harness behind this keel weight would count as TWO baits, not one. In Wisconsin, you are allowed only 3 baits per angler, so running more than one setup like this would be illegal.
Also, I've had bad luck with these weights twisting the main line with the harness if the are lowered too quickly. But they do look nice. |
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| Capt. Dan
This rig does count as two lures and the MWT has a two lure limit. "A two- (2) lure limit will be allowed per angler. " Directly from the MWT Rules. This person broke the rules for the MWT running this presentation as the weight with the hook is a lure and so is the harness behind it. I can see why this person did not want you using his name. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Wulp.
I must claim ignorance to the MWT rules factor. And I would never endorce or justify cheating. My last tournament fished was about 12 years ago. But the rig itself is NOT illigal as far as Joe Blow fisherman is concerned in Michigan. And I will be personally putting this legal (idea) to use on my charters. Of course you know I did not post this to get anybody in trouble, and I will not be devoulging any names. Fact is, I didn't see anybody who had left any kind of lures or set- up on any of their rods as they came in. Wonder how many teams (being they are not randomly picked) might have used this little technique anyway. Fact is, I like the idea of the rig.
Edited by walleye express 6/21/2004 5:04 PM
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Location: Neenah Wi | I would like to know why this is considered 2 baits?If the harness were directly tied to the back of this would this still be 2 baits? Say I were to sell this bait as a manufacturer would this still be considered 2 baits.I guess I just don't see why this is considered 2 baits am I missing something here?
Edited by Risor39 6/21/2004 5:02 PM
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Location: Crystal Lake | This configuration is illegal in the State of Michigan. From the fishing guide book: You may not: " Have a weight rigidly attached to a multi-pointed hook: or suspended from a multi point hook; or suspended below any hook unless the hook is on a dropper line (leader) that is at least 3" long. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | This HOOK is not RIGIDLY Attached. Have you ever heard of or seen a Little George lure. Same deal as how this rig is set up. Your thinking of those M-60 snag hooks you might have used. And I've learned yet another lesson in sharing good ideas on message boards.
Edited by walleye express 6/21/2004 5:07 PM
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| Well if everyone else MAY be doing it then I am sure that overrides the MWT rules. Ya, that is fair to all the other anglers that read, understand, and follow the rules. This is a good idea for gerneral fishing in Michigan but just trying to avoid problems in other states or in tournaments. Hate to see a disqualification or ticket for not understanding laws/rules. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Thats not what I was implying, and I think you know that. Wrong is wrong in my play book also. Maybe more-so being a charter Captain and trying to preserve a reputation.
Also, I just e-mailed my DNR bud along with the attached picture of the modified keel weights. I will truthfully tell all what he says about the rigs. And if illegal, the hooks are gone.
Edited by walleye express 6/21/2004 5:32 PM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | O.K.....Lets start over. I just got off the phone with my buddy. He charters out of Hoyles and stays all summer in his 5th wheel trailer in Hoyles trailer park. It was at his 5th wheel trailer that I met his buddy and the MWT participant in question on day one, who showed me the Keel weight modification.
This was half way through the day 1 weigh-in when we met, and admittedly, I had had a couple cold ones. I asked my buddy exactly what he remembered hearing and understood his buddy to have said, when he showed us this modification? He said, he thought he had said that he had caught two of his biggest fish during (pre-fishing) on the keel weight itself while using it. I thought he said during the tourney. I then asked my bud if he knew that this would have been illegal using it during the tourney? He said no, but seemed very sure his bud would not cheat under any circumstances, being he fishes many of them. I'm sure everybody uses the most lines and lures they can legally use, while pre-fishing for any tournament. So this would be inline with what my buddy says he heard. I really can't say for sure now.
Now, I also had never met this man until then, so cannot vouch for his integrity. And I guess this does not answer the legality question about the rig. That will be answered soon enough by my DNR bud and if illegal, I'll make everybody aware of it. It will always be my only intention to share new things that legally catch walleyes with everybody.
Edited by walleye express 6/21/2004 7:27 PM
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Location: Neenah Wi | This must be one of them there gray areas I keep hearing about.One wardens says its legal the next says it is not.Depends on which one checks you I guess.Thanks for putting up the ideas Dan.Thats why we keep coming here to learn new things.
Edited by Risor39 6/21/2004 9:34 PM
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| Dan,
I posted a message on here after last years PWT on Bay de Noc's saying that I put a treble on the back of the keel weight instead of a harness and caught fish on it. I'm fairly sure who you are talking about, I doubt very much if he would cheat, but he may have not known about the rule in question as it was not brought up at the rules meeting. (yes I'm aware that regardless you should know any rules that pertain to the tourney). I did however see a few teams running Tots with spoon sliders off 4 boards, (a violation of the rules?)
Funny thing is we were running bouncers w/o boards on the inside and keels with harnesses off the boards (at many different depths) We caught about 15 fish total in the tourney and only one came off the keel weight. Wonder why they bought his program and not mine?
Rob |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | You never cease to amaze us with your creativity Dan. Great idea! Hmmmmm only Gold Shiner??? Could this be a job for Terror? Get a hold of me and I'll make you a deal you can't refuse!!!!
Did you get one to bite on it yet?
Edited by terroreyes 6/21/2004 9:57 PM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Terror.
My fairyplum visions of grandure over this rig has been put on hold until I hear back from my DNR buddy. If indeed this is an illegal lure and way to fish it, I won't be exploring it's advantges or modifications further, but will simply have some XPS keel weights with holes drilled in their side. 
Edited by walleye express 6/22/2004 12:39 PM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Dan -
The lure itself is not illegal - your dnr friend will confirm that.
Risor -
The weight becomes a bait when you attach a hook to it. In wisconsin you can run 3 baits, hooks or lures. They can all be on one line or you can run 3 lines. I think most people would agree that a 3-way swivel with a deep diving crank and a shallow diving crank would be legally be considered two lures. A keel weight with a hook that you hope to catch fish on with a crawler harness behind that is no different. |
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| Hey Bill,
Stick a cork in it. Dan has some good ideas and enjoys sharing them. There's nothing wrong with that. If you don't want to learn or already "know it all" (your words) don't click on it. WHat have you contributed here, or anywhere else lately? My guess is nothing.
Tim |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Thanks Tim.
I wish sticking up for the TRUE contributors on any fishing boards became a habbit with board members and was done on a lot more sites, as it is on this one. I had a couple other MR. BILLS on other sites (probably the same one's) who's only mission it was, was to chide Me and see if they could chase me away.
I'm to the point now, where I feel sorry for the poor guys. But I have to admit, having to go from one board to the other, clicking on and reading all my posts with the same title's must really be boring. To bad Bill doesn't have a hobby. Hey Bill, have you tried fishing? Drop me a personal e-mail and I'll get you started. Always glad to help out a personal friend or fan of mine. 
Edited by walleye express 6/22/2004 12:59 PM
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Location: Northern Illinois | Sounds like with some of the innovative ideas that Rob and Capt Dan have shared, that visiting and showing a DNR person the rig in question, prior to the tourney is the only way to determine if a specific rig is, or is not, legal. Being in rules meetings, asking this question in that room is paramount to ringing the dinner bell with gps coordinates. Seeing these Rob and Capt Dan post regularly, I have no doubt they are acting and fishing in a manner they believe to be legal. Sorry if not everyone enjoys there ideas and thoughts. Mike |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Dan,
I appreciate your posts. I’m going to be testing your slider rigs this weekend.
Bill,
Good bye!
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| Bill,
Number one, if you had ANY balls you would post your full name......Number 2, if you had any sense you'd shut the hell up and find something productive to do. If you don't like what's on the board either don't read it or don't comment.....Haven't you ever heard the saying if you don't have something good to say don't say anything at all? Jerk.
Rob Stratton |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Bill(Not your really name),
Any time you're fishing Bago again, and you would like to have a sit down and share your ideas or products with this "new fisherboy". I'd be glad to do it. I'm not an unregistered user hiding in anonymity.
If you don't want to do that, then go pound your sour grapes somewhere else!
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Bill.
This will be my last response to your jealous rantings. So, I want you to get a grip on yourself now. Because what I'm about to tell you is going to come as a shock. Virtually every technique known and used for the last 40 years is nothing but a spin-off or refinment of the old stand-by methods/techniques, either used and refined here in fresh water or from some other place in the country. You think I'm trying to pawn off anything/everything I talk about or share with these guys as My own inventions? I wish!!
I give these guys here way more credit for savvy than that.
I and partners, won a Standish tournament on the Bay back in 1986 (when you were still crappin yellow) using what you would call spoon rigs. But they were giant oakleaf spoon with big egg sinkers in front of them for depth purposes. The slider rigs idea I simply barrowed from the salmon guys and refined them component wise. But hey, you knew all this anyways right? I'm thinking your keeping a lot of usable knowledge to yourself. Why don't you write down some of this untapped fishing resevoir your holding back and help us poor saps catch some fish?
Edited by walleye express 6/23/2004 9:48 AM
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Location: Neenah, WI | Hey Dan- The only way I know you is through your posts on various boards that I visit. I enjoy what you have to say. Don't let the Bills of the world get to ya. Maybe he's that goofy Bill from Red Green and doesn't know any better.
The legality of multiple hook rigs can be debated and interpreted 'til the cows come home and we'll probably never get consistant answers from wardens. That looks like a good idea and maybe you'll have an answer by the time the MWC comes to Saginaw Bay. If not we'll just have to run those dang ol' spoons for the big girls. |
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| Dan,
Don't let tough guys like "Bill" scare you away. If he thinks all his special techniques are a reinvention of the wheel, then he's living in a sad little world. As you said just about all the "new" techniques are mods or spin-offs of something done in the past or practiced in chasing other species (like lots of the deeper walleye techniques crossed over from salmon fishermen). I, for one, like to hear about new things other guys are doing and see if the methods (or a modification of) will work for me. Bill probably spends all his time developing "new" techniques that no one has EVER used before.;)
Tim |
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| Rob, Dan, Befishin.... Ditto
Bill, negative rantings are the curse of all the boards. Try being a contributor and you will be appreciated for your efforts.
Take care,
Jim O |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | You could always use them as a cool-looking 3-way.  |
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Location: Midland, MI 48642 | I have to jump in on this one, the Bills have jumped on ole Dan off and on for a few yrs now since their friendship fell through. I think Dan will agree with me on this one. Probably know who it is. Anyway I have fished with Dan several times and he does know what he is doing and he is NOT afraid to share it with anyone. He has lived on the bay all his life and has been lucky enough to have had a dad who made sure he was taken out fishing on a very regular basis. He knows the bay and the rivers as far as that goes. Bill hope I didn't make you mad enough you won't buy any products from me but guess thats the way it goes. I don't jump in on these very often but this one got to me! Skeeter
Edited by Skeeter 6/22/2004 5:48 PM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | The "Bill" comments have been removed. Let's try to keep this civil, without name-calling. Thanks to everyone who comes here and makes a positive contribution. |
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Location: Neenah Wi | We need more Dan's here and less Bill's.Keep em comin Dan.Thanks.I still don't see how you consider this the same as a 3 way rig.If a harness is attached to the back.What if you added a hook to the underside of an erie deary,would that be considered 2 baits?Most cranks have multiple hooks and are considered 1 bait.I just don't get it I guess.With a 3 way you have multiple lines running to the baits.Say I were to put 2 hooks in tandem attached to the xps in the rear would this still be 2 baits?I dont see the difference if you have a harness directly behind this.Sorry to keep going on about this but I would hate to see something this interesting be shelved because it was presummed illegal.
Edited by Risor39 6/22/2004 10:24 PM
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Risor.
Even though my DNR buddy has not returned my e-mail yet, I'm thinking he will indeed say this rig is legal in Michigan. It's technically no different than running my sliders with crankbait in front as the diving lure. And I think the hinging factor will be that the belly hook is not attached rigidly to the lead.
After thinking for a while I came up with quit a list of lures that have the same configuration. All the blade baits including the Sonic, Cicada and Zip lures. And quit a few ice fishing concoctions, including Jig A Whoppers and a few Lunker lures they sell. And not to re-mention the Little George lure that's only missing the spinner blade at the tail end to totally look like this modified version of the keel. Or even the slabbing spoons used, like Hopkins and others.
But I'm also thinking (like one of the posts said), one officer could see it one way and the other see it different. I'm also thinking if pressed in court, and showing in what fasion and method you were using the the rig in question, you'd win the case. I'm hoping my bud's answer will be deffinet and have a most positive conclusion, as I'd prefer to avoid testing it's legality in court as well.
Edited by walleye express 6/23/2004 9:39 AM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Risor/Dan -
The rig is legal, but it you have two separate baits/lures/hooks that are BOTH capable of catching a fish, you have two baits, not one. If Michigan allows two "baits", and you run a rig like this, one one rod would be legal.
The difference between a rapala with 3 trebles and a rig like this is that a rapala is still only one bait. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Brad.
I'll even take that further. On the St.Claire when whippen, your allowed three seperate pencil plugs, seperated but run in tandom one behind the other, and all wearing three trebles on each plug, while still being totally legal in Michigan.
My DNR bud is the main biologist on Lake Huron, so he's often running from one place to another in his district and may be away from his desk right now. I'd send the info and ask our DNR in general over their internet site, but I trust my bud to explore all the answers and for that matter the other questions that may apply, versus giving me the flippid yes or no answer. |
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