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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Have you guys heard about this. I just heard it on Fox News. Seem these people found a guy in their tree stand on their land and tried to kick him out. He then opened fire and killed 3 of them wounding another who called for help. And then killed two more and wounded another when more relatives arrived. They're saying the guy was vietnamese and dressed in camo. What in the hell is going on in this world? 
Edited by walleye express 11/21/2004 11:22 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Haven't heard about that here yet, but if it's fact it proves there are nutsos in every walk of life. What a waste. | |
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| That is just nuts, very sorry for the family that had to endure this nutcase. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | U.S. National - AP
5 Killed, 3 Hurt in Wis. Hunting Dispute
2 hours, 1 minute ago U.S. National - AP
By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer
BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter who apparently intruded on private property killed five other hunters who had been staying in a nearby cabin and wounded three more during the opening weekend of deer season, authorities said.
AP Photo
AP Photo
Slideshow: Five Killed in Wis. Hunting Dispute
Hunters' Trespassing Dispute Leads to 5 Deaths
(AP Video)
A 36-year-old man was arrested Sunday afternoon when he came out of the woods, sheriff's officials said. Two of the wounded were in critical condition Monday.
Deputy Jake Hodgkinson identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no details. Vang is from St. Paul, Minn., said Paul Schnell, a spokesman for the St. Paul police department.
The shooting started when two hunters returning to their rural cabin saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. The platforms or "tree stands" allow hunters to see deer without being easily seen themselves.
Both of those hunters were wounded and one of them radioed friends at the cabin a quarter-mile away. Other members of their group responded and they also were shot, he said.
"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.
Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said.
The dead included a a teenage boy and a woman, and a father and son, Zeigle said. Some of the victims were shot more than once. All five were from the Rice Lake area, about 15 miles southwest of Birchwood in northwestern Wisconsin, he said.
Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.
The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two other hunters who didn't know about the shootings helped him find his way out, Zeigle said.
The man was arrested when he emerged from the woods and a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back from a description given by one of the shooting victims, Zeigle said.
The man was out of ammunition, he said.
One of the injured hunters was in critical condition Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. Another was in critical condition and a third in stable condition at Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake.
Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters when they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and discovered roads in the area had been barricaded.
"When you're hunting, you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," Wagner said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."
"We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this, but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."
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| Another of the wounded has died. Now 6 are dead. Much like the Lisa French killing on Holloween changed that holiday forever in the early 70's, I fear this will have a great impact on our traditional deer hunt. What a shame. My heartfelt condolences to the families of the victoms.
I will be following the details of this very closely, to know exactly what, and why this happened. With only the suspect's version of the original confrontation available, I'm not sure we will ever know exactly what happened preceding the shooting.
Note to the media. It doesn't matter what kind of gun this wacko had. Also, 6 police calls to his house is a bit beyond being a nice guy!
Any truth to the report he was not wearing Blaze, but camo? I don't for a second, buy the story that he was lost, and just decided to hunt from that stand. Not wanting to get into ethnicity here, but I can't help it. This is an extreme extension of their complete and willful disregard for our fish and game laws. It needs to stop, and soon.
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| Here is copy of the statement made by the shooter to the police, from Milwaukee journal Sentinel website, also other link is from channel 6 Milwaukee news station.
http://www.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/statement112304edit...
http://www.fox6milwaukee.com/
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Any truth to the report he was not wearing Blaze, but camo? I don't for a second, buy the story that he was lost, and just decided to hunt from that stand. Not wanting to get into ethnicity here, but I can't help it. This is an extreme extension of their complete and willful disregard for our fish and game laws. It needs to stop, and soon.
Shep.
They're saying now he did have an orange vest on. And I'm very soon expecting some of the anti's and the PETA crowd to come out with their retoric, spin and justifications for the whole matter. I highly suspect they'll be financing his defense as well.
And I'm with you. If I move to France, it's up to me to learn their language and abide by their laws, not mine or my native country, as they don't apply there. Where does it end? Or is it to late to stop it? Seems the freedoms we love, share and encourage so much in this country, are coming back to bite us on the arse.
Edited by walleye express 11/23/2004 3:10 PM
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Location: Northern Illinois | The Chicago Area is not exactly a community friendly towards the NRA and hunters in general. BUT this story has been on mainstream radio and many of the local news stations last night and today. It has been getting a lot of attention down here. Mike | |
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| This is a very sad event for everyone involved. What would compel a person to "snap" like that? I remember telling my wife that there will be another side to the story, and there is.
When I first heard some of the details of this shooting, I tried to form a picture in my mind of the situation. How could this happen? Here is how I saw it. Hmong hunter is found in someone elses tree stand on their property way 'up north'. "Get the f%$@ outta my tree stand you f#@$%^& piece of sh%$ {insert your favorite 'up-north' colloquial racial slur for people of SE asian heritage}. The racist property owners, possibly drunk as well, emboldened by their greater numbers, point their guns at the guy in a threatening manner as well. Maybe one of them squeezes a shot off over his head to 'scare' him.
Well, as it appears to have turned out, the guy was lost. Most of the land in the area is open to public hunting. He eventually wandered onto the victims land. Perhaps he was in the tree stand to get a better view of the land to try and find his way out? Maybe he was looking for his friends or another hunter that might help point him back to the road? Maybe he was tired of wandering and decided to hunt out of that stand for awhile? Whatever the case, I will bet the property owners weren't very neighborly or 'helpful' to this lost guy. Rather than assisting him by giving directions or giving him a lift on one of their 4-wheelers, they allegedly intimidated and harassed him, firing a shot in his direction.
OK. Put yourself in his place, only you're all probably white like me, so its hard, I know. But try. You accidently wander onto some elses land and the thug, idiot owners surround you treat you like these guys did. They shoot at you. Now that would compel me to run faster, if I thought the shots were warning shots. But if I thought they were trying to kill me, I would be perfectly within my right to fire at the shooter(s) in self defense.
What those poor slobs up north didn't know, is that Mr. Vang was a US Service veteran. He speaks perfect english. And, he is a master marksman. If one of the victims fired at him first and he felt they were trying to shoot him, I think it was within his right of self-defense to shoot back at the shooter. THAT SAID, it should have stopped there. Mr. Vang continued shooting at the other, alleged un-armed people. THAT is totally uncalled for and he will spend the rest of his days as a Wisconsin prison inmate because of it.
The MOST unfortunate thing about this is that it didn't have to happen. Hot heads and racism and led to this problem. We've seen it from the 'up north' white folk before. It's not just hunters that exhibit this behavior either. Remember the first few years the tribes were spearing? I've seen and heard similar behavior while fishing at LBDN (I'm from WI, so that gives locals a 'right' to haras me). I read stories on this board and others all the time about some fishermen arguing over "their spot". What if more fisherman carried guns? Think about it.
I'm not a religious person. But I ask those of you that are, if Jesus had come across Mr. Vang, lost in the woods, what would he have done?
I don't need to be religious to tell you how I would have handled it.
Disgusted | |
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Disgusted, how can you defend this guy and his actions? We will never know if names were called, and it doesn't matter. That doesn't give anybody the right to kill someone. Read the police report, it states right in there that he confessed to chasing two of them down and shooting them in the back. One rifle was found, he had an assault rifle, who has the upper hand?
He was on private property, when someone approaches you and tells you that, you apologize(if in fact he was lost) and leave. As was stated earlier, if I move to france, I have to learn their way of life, their laws, and their rules. Here, we cater to everyone else.
They do have a blatant disregard for our game laws. I have witnessed it first hand up at Eureka, and yes I did call the warden, and they did get fined.
Only in America, can we make the person committing the crime, the victim.
Deer hunting in Wisconsin is a strong tradition, and after this tragic episode I belive it will not be the same.
The six that died and their families are the victims here, not Vang. | |
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| Disgusted, get some nads and log in!
You want to defend this guys actions because you THINK your version is what happened? I don't doubt for a minute that the racial thing came into play. But to do what he did? Never, no matter what he was called. He got up in the tree stand to better see his way out? Yah, right. And I suppose he was lost in Green Lake county 2 years ago when he was fined for tresspassing. This guy has a history. I don't buy his version for a second.
I won't surpirse me either, if they connect him with the murder 3 years ago. Probably the same situation. Caught tresspassing, and shot the guy in the back. I'd vote for the death penalty in a heartbeat in WI. We need to stop wharehousing these people, and send the message that you can't murder in cold blood, and get away with it.
I've had problems with tresspassers in the past. Never was ever in fear of my life, nor should they have been. I certainly would be very careful if in the future. I wasn't one to get the law involved, but in the future, I will. And I will press for charges. Tresspasser are just lazy violators, and they need to be fined. Maybe only then will they learn. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | I read the entire police report including the statement from the suspect. It would appear to me the fellow's story doesn't match up with the story of those who were shot. I am sure the law enforcement folks will be able to reconstruct some or all of the event, including who shot at whom first. If Mr. Vang indeed was fired on, how was it he took several moments to remove his scope from the SKS, turn, and shoot two people? We'll have to wait and see what shakes out in court.
Those of you familiar with OutdoorsFIRST Media know we encourage both sides of any story to be stated as long as no bashing or abuse accompanies same.
I do have an opinion on this one. This man shot 7 (SEVEN) unarmed people, chasing several down and shooting them as they tried to escape. He stated there was more than one armed member of the party, but the report clearly states there was only one. He states the other party fired first, the report says that those who were shot stated to the contrary.
Both sides report nasty comments from the opposing party. I am a land owner, and have had to ask trespassers to leave on several occasions. In EVERY case, the trepasser became beligerant and insulting, despite my calm request to leave and notification his tag number will be turned in to law enforcement. That comment is critical to making the law breaker know you are serious. Believe me, if you don't make SURE they understand they are not to come back, they will.
A few years ago trespassers shot at my son and a hunting partner, forcing them to return to my home on foot at night through rough terrain. In this case, the trespassers were upset I owned that land, and were trying to intimidate us into allowing them access and literally were trying to run us off my own land. Some folks are plain crazy.
I am an 'Up North' resident, and neither am a racist nor a drunk. Nor are most of my neighbors. Racism is alive and well in the cities, towns, countryside, and across the entire world, and is not unique to Up North.
Where in the report is alcohol mentioned? I didn't read that, and believe me, if alcohol was involved, the officer would have reported same. Some comments in your post are as selectively bigoted as any that might have been exchanged in that altercation.
The result is this: Six people are dead, and Mr. Vang shot them. He wasn't 'lost', there was a cabin and a road right there, not to mention 4 wheeler tracks and trails. If he was a trianed military man, getting 'lost' like you describe is almost unthinkable.. He took off through the woods and swamps and then 'got lost' because he killed 6 people Most were totally defenseless and were trying to get away from the shooter. Snap? That isn't 'snapping', that's plain cold blooded murder. | |
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| My heart goes out to everyone involved in this tradegy!
Please pray for all the families! | |
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| Shep:
I WON"T log in when I weigh in with my comments on potentially volatile subjects. Some of the responses to my first post are perfect examples of why I don't, especially when I know I am in the "minority", outside of the "mob".
If you, and every other viewer would carefully re-read my post I DO NOT DEFEND Mr. Vang. He is GUILTY of MURDER and he WILL be in our prison system or a mental institution until the day he dies. BUT, there are still SIX dead people who will be forever missed by their wives, husbands, children, fathers, mothers, friends and coworkers. Don't forget them. Same for Mr. Vang. I grieve for ALL of them and ALL of us, for all of our lives have changed forever.
Just in case you missed my main point in my first post, let me clarify it for you - THIS DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN!
I WAS speculating on what MIGHT have happened. I, like all of you, only have the information we all recieve from the media. I CHOOSE to read and CONSIDER ALL of it. I qualified my thoughts with terms such as "maybe", "possibly", "appears", and "alledgedly". After re-reading my post again, the ONLY thing I WILL apologize for is the possible inference that ALL folks 'up north' are racist. That was not my intent. Racism lives everywhere and manifests itself in many ways, some more subtle than others.
Shep, we all have a 'history'. You seem ready to convict him of another unsolved murder to which there is no known connection. Hey, maybe he killed Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman? He did spend 6 years in the California National Gurd! It must have been him! If you want to be fair, look up the records of all of the deceased. They have 'histories' as well. However, neither parties previous records matter. This should not have happened. All of these participants should have been home yesterday with their families celebrating Thanksgiving.
You also bring up the death penalty. For the record, I oppose it. If it is ever put up to a vote in this state, I will vote against it. I am proud that the State of Wisconsin doesn't EXECUTE people like Mr. Vang did. I oppose any human being taking another human being's life. Perhaps it's the residue of my christian upbringing, but I never want to have someone else's blood on my hands (metaphorically speaking).
So pile on guys. Show the world how open-minded you all are and how you won't rush to judgement. There will be a story told. Mr. Vang is either guilty or insane. Which outcome would you prefer?
Still Disgusted.
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| shink:
I did not defend anyone. I only sought to understand how something like this can happen. We should all do that to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. You are also right - no one has the right to kill anyone else (self defense aside). So we agree on that point as well. He did MURDER the people that were shot in the back. We agree again! As far as who said what, who shot first, etc., time will tell. I wonder if the survivors will have "the nads" to tell the truth?
I have never lived in France, so I can't comment on what I would "have to" do if I CHOSE to move there. America does not exactly "cater to everyone else". The figure of 'Justice' holds is blindfolded and lets the scale tip in the direction of greater evidence. I implore you all to put your blindfolds on. Forget that Mr. Vang is Hmong. Take race out of it. He will be judged without regard to his race.
As far as the Hmong people go, they had few 'choices' on where to live after we abandoned them in Laos. They fought with and for the USA interests in SE Asia and paid a terrible price. For their loyalty they suffered genocide at the hands of the VC and Khmer Rouge (as some fled through Cambodia). Our thanks to them? We left them high and dry. The Hmong survivors that were fortunate to escape Laos to Thailand, often spent many years in refugee camps under miserable conditions. Fortunately, many were eventually allowed to enter the land of the free. Remember, save for the Native Americans, we are all 'immigrants' here. Nice job we did on them too.
Finally, your comment "They do have a blatant disregard for our game laws" infers an all inclusiveness. Please don't paint all Hmong with one broad stroke of your own racist brush. I am confident that most Hmong are law abiding citizens. I am also certain the wardens at Eureka have found violators from all ethnic backgrounds. Does that mean we are ALL violators?
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Maybe it's time to scrape these words off the Statue of Liberty and replace them with "KEEP OFF! - PRIVATE PROPERTY Violators will be shot!" 
Disgusted (tongue planted squarely in cheek despite the serious subject matter). | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Your right. It did not have to happen. If the man in question had not been tresspassing, none of it would have. I unknowingly trespassed once while deer hunting, when I came in from a State road, on a 40 acre parcel of some State Land, on the east side of some private property. Was approached by a very angry land owner who started out addressing me in some certain 4 letter verbiage. I answered his rebuke firstly with my Full name and with a very passionate, "SIR, I'M SORRY". "Tresspassing is not what I intentionally do at any time". "I've obviously walked in to far from the State access road and land that borders your property, and did not see your signs, and will leave immediatley the same way I came in".
The mans attitude, demeanor, voice and language changed immediatley. He even mentioned giving me permission to hunt his land after the first few days were over, after he went back to the city and his work obligations. I thanked him, declined the offer, wished him luck and quickly/quietly left the area. I know this sounds hokey, but it happened just that way. I am and have always been humbled and honored when anybody who owns hunting land gives me permission to hunt on it. They are generously sharing with me something they have either worked all their lives for, or has been passed down in trust to them.
(IMPO) To dismiss, address or discuss this issue rationally with anybody, without bringing to the table everything you personally know about life, feel or have been taught about hunting and understanding it's ethics, it's laws, right or wrong, racial mistrust from both sides and the laws of our Country, would be absolutley futile.
Unlike the anti's who have never hunted or fished for recreation or sport in their lives, the people who have hunted and fished all their lives, cannot be easily fooled by statements and circumstances that just don't make sense. I also hope that unlike the O.J. trial, the facts alone in this case lay out factual circumstances and make the case. And a guilty man is not let go (again), for both (pay-back) or to symbolically chastise and punish our less than perfect law enforcment agencies.
Edited by walleye express 11/26/2004 2:16 PM
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| sworrall:
Thank you for allowing the frank discussion on this board. Your own response was one of the more reasonable ones so far. You are correct - "We'll have to wait and see what shakes out in court."
Everyone has an opinion on this tragedy. None of us, save those involved, know the truth. Your own experiences with tresspassers are very telling. It is probably easier for you to see how this may have unfolded. I have to ask though, if your son truly felt the tresspassers shooting at him were trying to kill him and he returned fire killing them (I use plural because you did), would he be a murderer? I think not. In the subject case, Mr. Vang should have retreated into the woods and reported the shots allegedly fired at him to the police. Perhaps then the victims would be alive today. Maybe in jail, but alive none the less.
I apologize if you inferred from my post that ALL folks 'up north' are racist drunks. I certainly did not intend that. I'm sure the coroner will undertake toxicology examinations on the victims so the facts in that matter will be known. We all know drinking and guns can lead to problems. In my post I said "possibly". I did not state a fact.
Contrary to your statement as fact, we don't whether Mr. Vang was lost. He says he was. He also says he shot those people. If he can admit to that, why wouldn't I believe he was lost? Furthermore, the mere presence of a trail or cabin does not mean you know where you are. It is not 'unthinkable' that he was lost. What is unthinkable is the resulting tragedy that unfolded that day.
Finally, I am as far from bigoted as you can be (bigoted - blindly and obstinately attached to some creed or opinion and intolerant toward others).
THIS DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN!
Disgusted | |
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Location: YouTube.com/LyubakaVideo Instagram @LyubakaVideo | To the unfortunate victims R.I.P. deepest condolescences to their loved ones. I am awed by the fact that I have the honor to be discussing matters (be it purely enjoyable topics of fun or horrific excessions like the current one) with such a fellowship of highly-educated, profoundly-read and well-mannered men and women here at outdoorfirst boards. The pleasure of the discussion is in the enrichment one gets out of it and the solutions that are encountered via arguements. I am a newcomer not only to Our board, but to the US too - I first set foot on American soil back in 2000 (btw thanx for the warm welcome). I have lots of first-hand experiences of discrimination on the basis of national origin and still will not take sides on the matter.
My only humble comment will be this:
How many have heard the comment - "Don't like somebody - take them deer hunting."? Even mentioned as a joke it still makes me shiver - more so now after this season's deathtoll already accounted at whopping 40+ human lives! (no I am no church lady and not Bridgitte Bardo tree hugger although ecology is my domain of study).
How many kids get pumped on Doom/Tomb Rider and all kinds of other massacre video/computergames before the hunt?
Isn't respect for human life multiplied by "0" for a majority of upcoming and established persons alike?
The guy could be green for all I care, he will still be "The Alien". No relation to the outcome since egotism sees no color. I, personally, realize the actual facts will remain burried with the poor victims of human triggerhappiness.
And, no I do not hunt deer or any game, but do not interfere with anyone elses intent to do so. Happiness and personal pleasures find numerous different ways to express themselves.
I am sure the great tradition of deer hunting will remain to be, human casualties or not, lets hope this serves as an example that will draw the line between raising your gun at what "you think" is your pray and what you are sure is the game animal you are after. Squeezing that trigger carries a lot of responsibility, that for some reason I do not see demanded by the DNR "tag-manufacturing fascilities" on every corner. I agree everyone is prone "to snap" at a certain point, but surely unlimited "freedom" turns to be "no freedom" at all - ask any of the parties involved in "the mishap that should not have happened". I will bow in front of the tragedy, but with the "I-told-you-so" look in my shut eyes.
Sorry if I interfered with anyones point of view. Zach and the moderators, feel free to "rub me off" the board.
One last thing - Disgusted, You do realize, your IP (even through a proxy) and your style of writing are a giveaway for this sites management, don't You? Happy holidays everyone, and please stay safe. Back to fishing!
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| Yes, Lyubaka, I know that in the internet world I am not truely "anonymous". Nor do I care. I am not out to 'get anyone' or insult anyone and I doubt that any of the fine people frequenting this board are out to 'get' or insult me. At least the ones I've had occasion to meet.
Disgusted | |
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Disgusted,
I didn't get my facts from the media, I got them from the police report that I read. Insane, that's the easy way out. Why did he chase the people down? Don't you think he was trying to get rid of all the witnesses. He even said to one of the victims,"you're not dead yet". That was in the police report.
I have been in the middle of trespassers on both ends, one a group of hunters jumped out of the back of a pickup and started shooting at a doe that was standing 20 yards from me. Another, I was tracking a deer and thought I was on the land I had permission to be on, the Landowner was irate with me. I apologized and told him what I was doing, to this day we are good friends. It's all how you handle the situation.
The murder that happened 3 years ago, it's pretty coincidental that it was about 80 miles away, victim was shot in the back, and same make of vehicle, problem is they will probably not be able to charge him with it(if he indeed did do it).
I was only repeating to you what the warden did say about the violating that they do. As far as catering to the people that do come over to the U.S., yes we do over here. I could go on adn on about that, but that is a different subject.
I also agree with Shep, bring back the death penalty, the victims are gone, their spouses, kids, brothers and sisters, and parents will all suffer the rest of their lives, while that guy gets to live, be it in jail, but he will be taken care of. And I don't care what happened in the past, why should we have our borders opened to everyone that wants to come over. Our country is in enough trouble the way it is.The government pays for them once they get here, I have no problem with the people that come over and want to make a living and try to succeed.
My name is Eric Schuelke, I believe what I say and stand by it. I'm not afraid to have people disagree with me or know who I am. | |
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Location: Coatesville, PA | If a guy had time to remove his scope before shooting back in response to supposily being shot at, I sure he would have time to beat feet out of there. He has admittied to chasing down and killing 2 of the hunters, so I'm sure he'll never be a free man again. | |
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Location: Milw, WI | Ok been holding my tounge here................no longer.
A SKS is not a good rifle.
Nice to carry on a drive though.
They are small and can be out fitted to look cool.
After the 1st gulf war they were selling for $59 bucks each.
People bought 3-4 of them and were lucking if they could hit paper with them.
The gun had nothing to do with the crime.
Taking my scopes off takes about 10 seconds.
So all you thinking this took time to do , it is done with the twist of your hand.
Two little knobs and in my pocket they'ed go.
Take that out of the thinking about it , and put it the reaction stage.
MR. Vang.
Trained soilder, in 2 different types of armys.
Hits what he shots at, was also shot at.
Served our country in bloody combat.
Shooting starts you kill them all.
I know lots of people from S.E. Asia.
Girlfriends father got here the same way, served in US forces over seas.
If you would hear the things that happen over there when they are not at war, you would freak out.
Any of you Deer hunt with NAM VETS?
I do .........and it can get very scary, once the shooting begins.
Flash back dreams and in woods freak outs.
Wake them up to go out and then pin you to the floor by your adams apple...... asking for pass words.
Shell shocked jumpy ness, twiching at every sound till nervious vomiting.
Daily things that I expect when I go gun hunting with these purple heart recipients
This in no way justifies what happen.
But remember if you were not there you can not even begin to understand what will go through your mind.
Once a gun is pointed at you, let a loan fired in your direction.
I for one would have expected that every one of the people confronting me would have had at least a gun or 2 on them.
I carry 2 most of the time.
I have been shot while pheasant hunting.
I have had the bark explode just after a report 10 inches above my head on tree I leaning against.
Opening morning my first time in the woods for gun deer.
Never saw the the person who fired the shot.
Guys I was with asked why I did not shoot back?
I have shared cabins with guys who are drunk the entire season they close the bars every night,
and put booze in their coffee in the morning.
The only time they sleep is in the woods, I can track them by their snoring.
When they did not show up to eat.
So every one please let all the facts fall in to place.
And forget any race, creed or color.
Remember and feel for the familys left behind.
And I am a DNR hunters education instructor. ( Inactive right now)
This entire Deer Gun Season is shameful at this point.
Edited by Richfish 11/26/2004 10:19 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Disgusted,
It's easy to misunderstand a person's intent on a message board. I don't think I misread your comments, they are as they are. If I misunderstood them, so be it, I accept and appreciate your explanation.
Yes, if my son fired back at those folks and killed one of them, he would have been tried for murder in the second, sure as I am typing here. The shots fired were in his general direction and 30.06 shell casings were recovered, but no one was hit, no one was injured, and guess what? No one was even arrested. The 'self defense' law in the good old USA is a bit odd, it requires that one actually be sure ( and be able to prove it) one's life is in danger, and that safe exit from the situation isn't possible.
We don't know who fired first, or why. Read the police report again. I'm more inclined to believe the witnesses who were shot and the officer, but that's me.
As an aside, I 'grew up' as the extreme minority for a time in a couple communities in New Mexico. I was a minority big time there, a Gringo. I learned first hand what rascism is, including physical violence, verbal abuse, and worse. Alot worse. Not an excuse for murder though, no way.
Let's let the Law rough this thing out. I also question whether Mr. Vang's truck and Mr. Vang's description match that of one or more folks in the area where a similar shooting occured a couple years ago, and if so, is it possible this is not the first time he's done this sort of thing? I wonder if any rounds were recovered, and if they might match that 7.62X39.
Richfish, good points. I also have some friends who served over there and can relate. That still is no excuse for any of this.
One thing though. I have hunted in Wisconsin and Wyoming, New Mexico and Colorado ( born there, Denver)the Dakotas and elsewhere. I have NEVER encountered a hunter who was drunk, not one time. Are there hunters who drink and hunt? Sure. Same as there are those who drink and drive. Both are behaving in a criminal fashion. Neither represent a majority, or even a representative sample. Both should be dealt with by the law in as severe a fashion as is allowed. | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Richfish.
Your post kinda freaked me out. And I'm not sure what the jest or what message you were trying to get across in it. It reads like part two of the "Deer Hunter" movie, when Dinaro comes back from Vietnam.
I hope you were not explaining away what happened because this guy might be shell shocked from vietnam, because as I understand it, he is only 36 and was about 2 years old when the last (so they say) returning POW's kissed the JFK runway. And connecting the guns monitary worth, calibur, reliability and it's true deer hunting shortfalls, doesn't bring back any of the dead. And as anybody who has ever shot (timed and rapid fire) in competition knows, if I wanted to acquire close targets quickly in a wooded situation, the first thing that would come off would be the scope. They only found one rifle between the 8 people shot. So unless they passed it around to take turns shooting at Vang as he was surrounded, this don't bode well for his story. And consider one of the victims was a young woman in her 20's and a teenage kid. Some real threatening individuals. All they were, were two more witnesses that had to be eliminated. And lastly, as a friend, I urge you to find some different hunting partners, if they truely act as you have stated.
Edited by walleye express 11/27/2004 8:17 AM
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Member
Posts: 540
Location: Milw, WI | I do not try and explain any of this away.
Just disgusted at the 10% the media tells you and the right wing responses from the public.(clueless people)
The gun issue was getting to me, it was not the gun.
We sold them at our shop at the time they hit the us market.
Any gun could have done this, it was just the tool.
The scope issue ......I have snapped them off to take closer shots myself.
The shell shock is our guys.
I would of hated to see what would have happened if someone in my old group ran in to a Asia trespasser in the woods.
I deer hunt with a dersert eagle 44 mag. semi-auto hand gun,
Or my Ruger blackhawk 44 mag. revolver, lets all jump on that issue.
When running into people in the woods I get very mixed reactions.
If using rifle or shot gun I still carry a side arm.
I prefer to hand gun, but have been asked to not do this till the weekdays by some groups.
A Man did this, A Man is going to held in judgement for this.
Feel for the familys left behind.
Steve,
I lived in NM, for about 4 years as a young boy and never experienced near as must racism as when Me and my girl friend go up the family cottage, in Haslehurst.
She is half Philippine, We would not get served in places and would have comments shouted at us in public.
People who I thought were my friends would no long talk to me because she was with me.
They thought she was a Am. Indian.
The funnest part about the whole thing is I am the one who is part Am.Indian.
Dan,
Not currently deer hunting with anyone.
Left that group when I was crippled, I can no longer carry them out of the woods when they have a heart attack.(2xs)
Was baby sitting most of the time any way, and most of these people were at the time city/gov. officials.
Bad thing is I have tryed a few other groups and they were even worse.
Still get invites from all these groups, but make good excuses why I can not go.
This year was toughest one to turn down, one group offered to pay my way, and they all got a deer this year.(a first)
When we get in a boat together, I'll give you more detailed stories.
Edited by Richfish 11/27/2004 1:18 PM
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Richfish.
I knew you had more on the ball, than what I gleemed in that first post. 
But still glad you verified it. 
Edited by walleye express 11/27/2004 1:34 PM
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Member
Posts: 701
Location: upper michigan | there was a comment about the accuracy of the sks i just wanted to point out that my buddy has an sks and i have been able to consistently hit a gallon jug at over 250 yards with open sites so i do believe they are as accurate as any gun made
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Member
Posts: 540
Location: Milw, WI | Butch,
There were some higher grade one sold that were much better than the cheap models.
My point was that the description of it being a "assult rifle", was not that accurate.
They can be out fitted to look like one.
But they are not an ak-47, m-16's , mac 10's, or ar-15s............ect.
Which all can drop a deer with the proper ammo, real well.
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Wisconsin Deer Hunter shoots 8 and kills 5 people who try to kick him off their land.