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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Okay, both the FLW Tour and the PWT have a rule concerning a Co-Angler not sharing info during the tournament, But, the rules are very different. Both prohibit a Co-Angler from sharing locations from previous tournament day(s). But, the PWt also prohibits the Co-Angler from sharing any other "how-to" infor... Here are the exact rules
FLW:
"Co-anglers who share their pro partner's fishing locations with any other competitors will be disqualified along with the person utilizing this information."
PWT:
"Amateur partners/co-anglers may not recommend or share fishing spots or other “how-to” information with their pros. Amateur partners/co-anglers who share their pro’s fishing spots with any other contestants will be disqualified along with the person utilizing this information."
This reads as if on tournament day... A Co-Angler may not select or suggest "anything"... That could get tough on normal boat conversation...
How "tight" should this rule be interpreted? | |
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Member
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| Having been in a pros boat several times prefishing and in tournaments as the co or amatuer or whatever you want to call me I have followed these rules of thumb. If pre-fishing with a friend and he asks what I think I will tell him. If he doesn't ask I try and encourage them to beleive in their experience and game plan and always tell them THAT sounds like a good idea let's try it.
In a tournament that is for sure all I will say, they have a lot of time/money/effort/reputation on line and do not need me clouding the issues or creating doubt, especailly if they are starting to doubt on their own, whatever they want to try, switch to or stay with I am on board 100% with them.
In addition I will not share the informantion with another even after the tournament because what did work or did not work if shared with another pro whether in a BS session or whatever is giving that pro information my first pro developed on his own and I feel has the proprietary interest in it. Now that is not to say I will not try and apply those things learned good and bad when I am fishing because I will, but pro 2 or 3 or 4 or a posting on a board about what didn't work for my pro may be as valuable to the others as what was working and it is not my information to give out....ever... period.... The Hells Angels said it best 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. | |
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| Thjanks Jeff sounds like great info to me. | |
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Posts: 279
Location: Rockford MN | Jeff
Good post, there should be more Co's like you! Seems at every event someone gets the right pattern and then everyone seems to find the same pattern and places to fish. The only way that this could happen would be other guys telling other guys what the guys who figured it out were doing. I can't see the guys that found fish and had the patterns telling someone who had nothing, why would they hurt there own chances? In this event it looks like the guy that had a pattern and a spot won, thats the way it should be!
I think that the rules are followed for the most part, but I'm also sure that they are bent or even broken also. You just hope that the guys that had the program and the spots from the start win! | |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | But you can't solely think that if another pro decides that he is going to fish next to a certain person it was because it was his co-angler telling him to fish there. I mean how easy is it to go to the weight in and see who did well and follow them out the next day. Kinda a stupid move in my mind but you can't put all the blame on co-anglers.
and to touch on the whole rule thing, "The co-angler will not share any "how-to" info? what if you as a co-angler know what you should be doing to catch fish and your pro is making you do something else. Like for an example, I was fishing FLW South Dakota two years ago and my pro for the day had me jigging with a 1 ounce jig head when I should have been fishing with a 1/4 or 1/2. And I didn't even pre-fish with anyone. it was just something I knew I didn't need to do. how do you approach a situation like that? | |
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Location: Red Wing MN | Just because you cant share info, doesnt mean you cant talk. If your not catching fish ask him if you can change jigs. Thats not cheating.
I kind of take the rule as if, on day 2 you cant tell day 2's pro what day 1 pro was doing. Thats cheating!
Does that make sence? | |
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Posts: 3899
| I've fished a few of these as a co-angler, both the Tour and League. The first one I was in at Oshkosh, there was a co that had a good weight the first day. His pro for the second day didn't do very well the first day, but they came in the second day with a monster weight. The co was right in there for the cut. His first day pro saw them there on day 2, and hadn't seen the other pro the first day. Not sure if he protested or not, but nothing happened. No doubt in my mind that that co shared info with the day 2 pro.
Most of the League events, I prefished for. Sometimes with another who happened to be entered as a boater, most times in my boat. I've shared info with everyone of my boaters, when asked. I see nothing wrong with this.
In the Tour event I fished on Bago, I was asked my opinion about a few locations on Day 1, and gave it. We did what he wanted all day, and my info may or may not have influenced his decision. Hard to say, as we blanked! hehehe. In the other Tour events I fished, I pretty much prefished with Pro's. I never gave any location or presentaion info to any of my Pro's. I did use every bit of my fishing knowledge though, whether learned on my own, or through others, to help me do as well as I could. This might include picking a particular color, size, depth of presentation for my lines, if I was given a choice. If we were fishing a particlar location I knew, and we were not catching fish, I might make a suggestion like, "Maybe we should continue on a bit farther", or "Maybe we should try a bit shallower, or deeper, or slower, or faster". I had one guy on Erie that was trolling harnesses at over 2 MPH. I suggested that it seemd we were going a bit fast. He said that we weren't, that the kicker just sounded like it ran that fast. We caught the smallest fish all week. When we stopped to pick up and go weigh in, the boards stalled on my side, and both went under like bobbers. We caught a 6 and a 7, and upgraded by about 5 pounds. Still only ended up with about 22 for the day!
I was pretty bummed after that day, and wasn't sure I was cut out for the Co-angler thing. I got talked into doing it again the following year, and decided that I was going into it with a different attitude. No pressure, learn as much as I could, and to have fun. Well, I had a great time last year. In the Tour, I got a really good draw, got to use my knowledge, caught some nice fish, and had a great time. Even cashed a check. But the biggest thing was I fely like I helped the cause, and I had fun. Same with the League. I wasn't going to do it as a co, but decided to help a freind get in as a boater. I went in with the same attitude, and had fun. I didn't do so great, as I finished 33rd overall, but all three of my boaters made the top 25. All on fish that I caught. That made me feel almost as good as making the top 25 myself.
The rules are there. I don't think one tour enforces them any more consistantly than the other. I'd say that the boaters "bend" more rules than the co's. Obvious tailpiping going on, sharing info amounst themselves, and even the use of cell phones while on the water. Ask Mike Gofron and Mark Martin why they are not fishing the FLW this year.
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Yes makes total sense. I understad that rule completly.
I guess I'm still kinda bitter about the SD trip because I was doing good the first day and the second day was a flop! believe me I tried to change jigs but he told me that was the only size he had and it was the only size I should be using. | |
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Location: Red Wing MN | Thats Tuff,
I fished as a co in the RCL in 03 and I had a blast! Every Pro I fished with was great! We didnt always do so well but real nice guys!
But there where definatly a few guys there I was hopeing I wouldnt draw!
Edited by B Sander 4/12/2005 11:08 AM
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Posts: 6
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Fishing any this year? | |
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Posts: 22
Location: Red Wing MN | This year I bought a Ranger and decided to fish the MWC. We got our butts handed to us in Il but we are pumped up for Bago!
I really liked all the info from fishing as a co, but my ego told me to try it on my own.  | |
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| There are two kinds of Co-anglers.
The want-a-be’s and the knowledge seekers. I’ll take the knowledge seekers every time. These are the people looking to have some fun and learn a couple of things on the way. They have no pressure, they put no pressure on you and their goal is not to make money or the top 25. They may not know allot about fishing and in fact will not add to the livewell. That’s okay, I always assume that I will have to catch most fish anyways. They are there to learn. Heck, I may even have to make them use a one ounce jig because its obvious that they have no touch when it comes to finesse fishing.
The want-a be’s are the ones that get my goat! These are the guys who want to talk all day about what they would do. Obviously my prefishing and game plan means nothing to them if I am not doing it their way. They did not come to learn but want to teach a Pro a thing or two. I can understand the guy who thinks that they may want to try the Pro circuit so he enters as an amateur to see if they can compete at that level. BUT these people probably already know that they are not allowed or should suggest things all day. They’ll give us the same courtesy that they will expect when they try it.
The worst ones are the local experts who have fished the body of water for years. I come into town and develop a pattern that they have never seen and assume I’m wrong. It’s their old traditional ways of fishing that are the best. I have no idea why these types of people even enter. They say they want to learn new spots but want to suggest fishing theirs.
The want-a-be “know it alls” are the all time worst of the group. These are the guys showing up to make some real money. They’ll brag that they know more than most Pro’s. Even though the Pro put them on spot they’ll brag to their buddies about how they out fished the Pro. They forget that the Pro put them on that spot, supplied all the gear, knowledge and boat control so they could catch the fish. Heck, I generally let all amateurs catch all the fish so that I can net. Then to hear them say that they caught more than me is a real laugh. I even had one guy tell me that he got me into the championship, what a laugh. These are the guys who I think “bend” the rules. No, I’m being too nice, they blatantly break them. Their out there prefishing so that they can tell everyone who will listen how to win. They’ll tell the world the what, where and why’s of the day they spent with me as soon as they get off the boat. Funny, they’ll be the same guys who will not offer a nickel for the gas spent that day. They think they owe me nothing and that I should be grateful that I had that time together with them. We call these guys professional amateurs. They’ll stoop at nothing to stroke their own ego’s, including cheating if a Pro lets them.
I prefer that you suggest nothing to me. We will avoid all grey areas this way. I will not make you supply lunch (make sandwiches). I will offer casual conversation but please give me the courtesy of being quiet when I’m thinking. I will show you respect if you give me respect. I’ll tell a few jokes if we get along and the day is going well. But please understand if I am moody when we are not catching fish. This is my livelihood and my next paycheck depends on my performance not yours.
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Location: Red Wing MN | The first ? my dad asked me when I started fishing tournaments was, Why would you want to ruin such a great thing, By fishing serious?
Everyday I wake up knowing Im going fishing im in a good mood! When the pressures on tourney day inside im bounceing off the walls. I love it!
Its not my lively hood I have another job. But if my livelyhood made me a jerk, I would get a new lively hood!
I have never fished as a pro with a co! But I have fished many local tournys always with differnt people, and theres nothing better then watching someone whos not that good at fishing do good in a tourny and see there eye light up!
I understand nobodys out there to play but some stories ive heard about pro and cos are pretty sad.
Deep you make it sound like some of your co's have really gottin to ya, I wouldnt want to be in your boat when your grumpy just by reading your post. | |
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Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | B. Sander,
You're welcome in my boat as a co-angler anytime.
That feeling that you get IS the reason why I fish as a boater and on team tournaments. Tournmament fishing is my fix to get that feeling...........I may need a support group and I think I know lots of others who should join.
Funny, my deceased father told me the samething. Keep it fun son, keep it fun!
Edited by Sunshine 4/12/2005 12:32 PM
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| Deep,
You make it sound as though the co's should get in, sit down and shut up! In fact, I heard this very thing from a Pro next dock down at Red Wing one morning in 2002. I think the Co was going to refuse to go after hearing that. You also make it sound as if all the "Pro's" are all of the same ability, knowledge, and stature. Well, let me tell you, they are NOT! Most of us Co's know who's who in the walleye tournament world, and we also know who's not! Let me just say that the are a few Pro's who are not, and enter on that side because they have great disposeable income! It's one of those guys that almost made me quit entering.
And to say we are not, or shouldn't be out there to cash a check is also incorrect. You think we don't have expenses? You think we don't want to place as high as possible? Every co that I know was all excited about making the cut, and cashing a check. I'm excited to be entered in the Green Bay Tour event this year. I look forward to prefishing, and also to spending 3, and hopefully 4, tourney days, fishing with great sticks, should I get fortunate in the draw. I hope I have fun, and I hope I learn alot. I hope I win a lot of money, and catch big fish.
Some of the co's you describe probably do exist. Like some Pro's, they are in the minority. But, you are the pro, you are in cotrol of the boat, you make the decisions, and yes, you deserve the respect of the co. But it is also up to you to EARN that respect.
Edited by Shep 4/12/2005 2:21 PM
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New User
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| Nicely said shep.
I’d hate to spend all that time and money to enter a tournament as an amateur and get stuck in a boat all day with a guy like that.
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | I think there is something that can be learned from my experience in the Corps... As a Lieutenant I was the "Captain" of my Platoon... But, in the Company I was at one point the Executive Officer of the Company. I was the Captain's right arm... He depended on me to "be there" and hold my own and to support and carry out his decisions as well as run my own platoon. I was to help him run his company. The Co-Angklers job is just like that of the Executive Officer... He supports his commanders decisions but is there to do so with all of his skills. Likewise, the Captains first job is to see to the well being of his command. If the Captain thinks only of himself, his career and his own personal safety or goals he will neglect his men and the whole company will suffer. As soon as two people are put together to complete one job, they have to first live within the rules and then to the best of their ability get the best performance out of the team that they can by doing their job and supporting the others on the team. If a Pro's attitude is that the Co should sit down, shut up and do as he is told he will likely get a lesser performace out of all but the most exemplary Co-anglers. If the Pro's attitude is I am here to lead a team and he does so with respect and concern for the Co he will likely get as good of a performance from the Co as is possible. Everybody responds best to the right kind of leadership. | |
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| If a Co gets in the boat and uses the word "I" in a sentence 400 times in the 1st 1/2 hour, your in for a long day. Watch out for the "I" guy's and make em stop or you'll have a splitting headache (Especially when trolling). When rigging you can get seperation and all is good.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:) | |
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| So from what I'm reading from Deep Throat (by the way that sounds like a prono name) I'm supposed to pay my $600 get in the boat and watch you (who thinks he's the great fisherman) catch all the fish and not say a word. HA HA HA HA, that's a good one!!! You should really do an ego check and stop fishing tournaments if that's your take on them. Why don't you post your name so all of us "AM's" know when we should shut up and bait your hook. Your really are a poor example of a "pro". a | |
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| mt-1,
You’re putting words in my mouth. I never made any comments suggesting that you “get in the boat and watch you me catch all the fish and not say a word”. As I said earlier, If we are trolling, you will bring in all the fish.
Someone else said I make it sound as though “the co's should get in, sit down and shut up”. I do NOT agree with that statement at all. I agree more than you will ever know with the military analogy. We will be a team for the day BUT I’m in charge not you. If you can not handle that sign up as a Pro.
My only comment about being quiet centers around the fact that you may want to sensitive to the fact that the Pro may be thinking a lot about the next spot, next technique, observing and disseminating what is happening presently. It would be advantageous if you backed off with the chatter id you identify this happening.
I also mentioned that we sometimes become moody (not just me but many of us) because things are not going as well as planned. I was only asking that you understand this and to not take it personal.
Obviously some of my meaning was lost to you. Probably but not necessarily my mistake. Sorry.
I have tried NOT to come off as demeaning, narcissistic are egotistical. I failed with you and a couple of others, possibly because what I said hit close to home.
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| Deep- It hits close to home ONLY because I fish as an AM. Believe me I really don't want to chat all day with you either, I've paid my $600 with hopes to win- just like you! Your right it's not my next pay check, but you came across as someone with a huge ego. I have no intention of trying to give any info in terms of where or what, your the "pro" and you are the one who looks like crap if we don't catch fish-why?? because no one remembers the AM. r | |
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| MT- You’re right, I do have a huge ego. Don’t kid yourself, all the Pro’s do. Why do you think we fish competitively? Because we ALL think that our abilities are better than yours and most everyone else that fishes.
You are also correct that I am the one that will look foolish when we come in with no fish, not you. (although some on this board seem to think they are responsible when we do great but take no responsibility when we do poor……..go figure). I will look bad to all of the companies that have put faith, product and money into my hands. They are depending on me to represent them and their products. They want quality air time and media exposure. If I do poorly they do not get what they paid for by investing in ME. They suffer and I suffer.
I agree with you. No one remembers the AM. BUT my name will be published in different ways and I will be evaluated by my production that day or tournament. Again, I’m egotistical enough that I want to be on stage, I want to be on camera, I want to be interviewed. We all do, that’s why we do what we do. I make no apologies.
Here’s a question back at ya’, if you do not mind? Why do you think there are “co’s” in the boat to begin with? Do you really believe that it’s the best way for sponsors to sell product? The biggest reason in my opinion is to keep me honest and make sure that I am following the rules. Now, if some of the amateurs are breaking the rules, it makes it all a little inept, doesn’t it?
Ps……… I use Deep Throat not because of the reference to porno but from the Watergate era. Guess I’m showing my age.
I'll fade away now, gotta get back to prefishing.
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| To answer your question, I honestly thought having a pro/am tournament or AM's the boat was to promote tournament fishing and to give an AM the opportunity to learn something (making sandwiches and baiting hooks is not it). Having someone on board to keep a pro honest?? WOW I would have thought you boys were on a different level and cheating-well we've beaten that horse.
Sorry about the name thing, I blew my cool. o | |
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Location: Red Wing MN | Theres two kinds of PRO'S the WANT-A-BE'S and the Knowledgeable!
Enough said! | |
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Location: townsend,wi | hey Deep throat. i kinda doubt that you are a pro fisherman.tell us all your name and how much money you have won? Bet you won't answer that??? | |
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Sharing info during a tournament...