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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Thought I'd start a new thread on this. Heres some fresh correspondence, info and a few names to contact on this subject. Lets mail these guys some of our concerns and voice our willingness to back whatever laws or buy out's it takes to stop this slaughter.
Mr. Manyen,
Dave Fielder forwarded you email and asked that I respond. Here are our authorities and what is required of commercial fishers in terms of by-catch. By-catch meaning fish species not targeted and returned to the waters.
1) The department has absolute authority "at any reasonable time" to board/enter and inspect a licensee's commercial catch, vessels, warehouses or any vehicle used to transport or store harvested fish species. This would include random onboard riding for by-catch monitoring.
2) There is no authority in Statute, Rule, or Order allowing the department to remove or cause to be removed any impoundment gear due to by-catch concerns.
3) Disposal instructions require fishermen to release all unlawful and sub-legal fish species whether dead or alive. Licensees are required to immediately report any "significant" number of dead unlawful and sub-legal fish found in their nets in writing to LED. Fish Division and LED can then decide if disposal instructions need to be amended due to the situation. Again there is no authority to remove or cause to be removed any type impoundment gear due to incidental mortality.
4) There is no law or license provision anywhere in the state besides depth and season restrictions that dictates how a specific type of fishing gear is to be deployed, tended, or removed. This includes how often a trap net is emptied.
5) As long as all walleye (whether dead or alive) are released, the commercial fishermen is not in violation of any law regardless of how much or what condition the by-catch is in at the time of release. Under current law, the Department in response to large amounts of by-catch in impoundment gear may institute different disposal instructions to decrease unsightliness.
State licensed fishermen in Saginaw Bay are guaranteed fishing privileges by Commercial Fish Statute Part 473 of P.A. 451 and the fishing practices of those in the fishery have changed very little in the last 30 years. Therefore the sightings of by-caught walleye are not a result of fishing practice but instead because of increasing walleye populations. I reiterate that as long as all netted walleye are released, commercial fishers are not in violation of any laws. Nor are they subject to any sanctions by the Department. With that said the DNR agrees there is far too much of a commercial fishing presence in Saginaw Bay and is committed to securing legislative funding to buy out commercial fishing licenses. We have requested such an appropriation annually for over a decade but to no avail. Fisheries Division is currently working on a long term Management Plan for the commercial fishery in Lake Huron with a major component dedicated to significantly reducing the number of commercial licenses and gear deployed in Saginaw Bay. We feel strongly that the plan, when completed, will provide a much better background of the issues and justification for a potential buyout of a significant proportion of the commercial fishery in Saginaw Bay. We welcome all support you or other recreation anglers are willing to provide toward this endeavor.
Sincerely,
**************************************
Thomas M. Goniea, Biologist
FISHERIES DIVISION, MDNR
(517) 373-7341
[email protected]
My answer:
Thomas.
Please let me know about, or keep me informed about who I and my other 1,000+ Internet (walleye fishing) friends can contact, to let them know this has become a serious problem, and we'd like to see it rectified sooner than later. Rather it be through a one time by out allotment or a changing of the laws that reflect a better responsibility of the fishery by these commercial entities. With the recent discovery and the added influx of the natural reproduction of the walleyes these last three years, we now have a real chance to bring Saginaw Bays walleye fishery to it's full potential. It can also be the saving grace to the salmon collapse on Lake Huron. I'm ready and so are lot of others to lend their voice to get this done. But we do need some professional guidance. And I thank you very much for taking the time to start that guidance right now. Looking forward to your next correspondence.
Capt. Dan Manyen. Walleye Express Caharters.
His answer:
Dan;
Thanks for your observations. Trap net mortality of walleye has long been a subject of debate, and we don't have much of a database pertaining to this with which to work with. My own personal experience with this issue (consistently riding on commercial boats in Saginaw Bay for two years) was a long time ago and the rumors of large kills were rampant then as well, but I didn't see anything in all that time to support them. But that was in the mid-80's on just a couple of the boats fishing; a long time ago. Internally we have been trading e-mails fast and furious to get ourselves up to speed with on where we stand in terms of our knowledge. I seems to me there are a lot of unknowns. I think it is worthy of discussion at our internal Fisheries Division Lake Huron Basin Team meeting later this summer.
I looked at the list of Lake Huron advisors, and did not find too many with strictly a Saginaw walleye focus (we had a Saginaw Area Walleye association member once but I believe they did not attend regularly). Here are some folks that are members or in tune with the Lake Huron Citizens Fishery Advisory Committee. They bring angler/constituent based concerns to our attention at regular meetings.
Mr. Jerry Lawrence
2990 N. Lakeshore
Port Hope, MI 48468
Mr. John Schrouder
6453 Flajole Rd
Bentley, MI 48613
Dr. Ken Merckel
MSSFA
P.O. Box 294
Mayville, MI 48744
Thanks again,
Dave
David Borgeson
Northern Lake Huron Unit Supervisor
Fisheries Division, MDNR
989-732-3541 Ext. 5070
Fax: 989-732-0794
e-mail [email protected] | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | On a more serious note, in case Ol' Captain Dans boat sinks (with him in it) in the near future. Heres an E-mail I just recieved from an interested party.
I fish for a living. Your barking up the wrong tree. I do things the legal way. Never have I ever put NEAR that many dead fish back in the lake. YOU are the one to loose in this as you have opened up a can of worms and for this you will be sorry. NOT a personal threat. Fisherman on the east side and you know who I am. Its just that you have no idea what your talking about, not in the least. Are you trying to get other fisherman to worship you? Show them you are the big guy? I also notice you are going to next reinvent the wheel for a fishing device? Come on, be like your old man, whom was a very good person. What has happened to you trying to impress all the other fisherman like you do. Your hat doesn't fit now does it? Your becoming an important feeling type of person looking for something that I am not sure of.
It's obvious this guy did not really know the dad that I knew all my life. And his threat here won't stop me from doing what is the right thing to do. | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | I talked at length tonight with one of the contacts that was given to me/us from Officer Borgenson. He received my letter today and found it interesting and informative. But that's about where the good news ends. We talked about virtually every aspect of the fishery on Lake Huron and Saginaw Bay. He told me stuff that had me almost sick to my stomach about our future fishery and some of the politics that does more to interfere with progress than help it. Told me there are 23 issued commercial licenses still in existence on Saginaw Bay and Lake Huron, and that between them they could legally set some 300+ nets if they wanted to. They do not because there isn't the room to do so. Told me there was about 17 million in the by-out fund a few years ago, but now it's + millions in the red. Told me that our reps in the Capital (with their set 6 years terms) are tools for the lobbyist for the first two years, Get jerked around the next two, and spend the last two getting even with the guys who shafted them in the second two years. Told me about the fund that our hunting and fishing dollars should be going into to do and change things for the better, is always being hijacked for other things having nothing to do with the sports we all enjoy. Listening to him and the stories about his efforts to change things for the better these last 15 years was not easy.
Then the coupe-d'grass. He also told me that Canada was shipping in (LIVE) Asian (BIG HEAD) carp for commercial sale to their Asian populus, and that each family routinely buys two at a time. The catch is, that they kill and eat one and let the other one go to appease some ancient ritual. Guess where? Seems this argument about who kills what and how many would be nil in about 3 years if the BIG HEADS go into the Bay. He said that Canada has since stopped this practice. But is it to late? If so, all of us will either fish for BIG HEADS or take up golf as the only pastime. Then he talked about the BIG HEADS being washed over the electric grid barrier in Chicago from the barges. I told him enough about the BIG HEADS, please. He ended the conversation promising that he would present our argument about the Trap nets to the proper people and suggested to me a couple more to add to the list. But I'll be honest, our conversation wasn't exactly the pep talk I needed or the one I wanted to share with you guys. I'm thinking we've been more lucky than any of us know, even having a fair fishery. I'm not sure we have enough chips left in our pile to cover the pot.
Why do things we deem as leisure's and hobbies get taxed first and most, then fall under the sacrificial trim knife second. As I listened to this guy tonight, I wondered how the heck our whole (free world) system has managed to survive this far. A man works hard to pay for the things he has to pay for, and harder to reap a few of life's rewards. But gets stabbed in the back by the majority of stone walling or gutless reps working under their own agenda. Is it really going to take a total resource break down, to change or make some hard new laws and rules that thinks of the resource first? I'm sending off yet another letter today to Ken Deaton, 2905 Parkview Drive, Port Hope Mi. 48468. He is part of yet another (voice in the wilderness) that has our interest in mind. I always liked the joke with the guy sinking in the quick sand, holding up his middle finger as he goes down, gesturing towards the guy who pushed him in. Wonder if there's a special place in heaven or maybe hell for those types? | |
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| dont give up, your doing good work, and you will get support but be patient and stay after people. | |
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Member
Posts: 701
Location: upper michigan | Dan the venture you are on will not be a short and by the time it is resolved the problem may get worse. But its to the future we all need to look. To many people are liveing in the present and not thinking about the future. I have nothing against commercial fisherman they are just trying to make a liveing. But the good ones need to police themselfs and keep an eye on the others because as with any outdoor activity it only takes one or two bad eggs to wreck it for the others. They should look out for there own future and make better practice of regulare net checks then the sportsman wouldnot need to complain about non target species floating dead in the water. Its our resource and we need to take care of it. As with the groups that would like to stop our hunting and fishing we need to group together and work as large body and a loud voice. As we get together as a group we also need a couple people that have good writing skills and alot of knowledge on this subject to lead the way. Dan you have been able to get peoples attention and are very knowledgeable on the subject. For those of us that want to help but do not write so well or have all the facts on the subject it would be nice to have a form letter to send out. They cannot ignore thousands of letters comeing in. Also we should not limit this to just Saginaw bay as commercial fishing is abundant all over the great lakes. As well as Indian gill nets left unchecked for weeks at a time. Not saying that all nets buy all fisherman are neglected but a few are and they need to stoped. Good luck on this Dan and please feal free to ask for help. I look forward to fighting the good fight.
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Member
Posts: 538
| Dan,
How do you sort out the innuendo and annectdotal stories from the hard facts and 1st hand reports? You have tough battle without solid statitics and reliable reports from recognized sources.
Perhaps the person who very crudely attempted to invoke your fathers spirit to threaten you might invite observers along to verify his claims. That may be a good staring point to confirm the lossed or lack of same.
I understand that your concerns are for the good of the resource and that makes it the good fight in my mind.
Proffesional fisherman who net have nothing to gain and everything to lose in this discussion. I don't see any chance of them cooperating in any way with any discovery.
Take care,
Jim Ordway
Edited by Jim Ordway 7/12/2005 10:46 AM
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Member
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Location: Goshen, IN | Dan,
I have never had the opportunity to fish these waters, but.......I am behind you 100%.
If there is something I can do here from Indiana, just let me know.
Sincerely,
Doug Burkhead | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Hunter.
You and anybody else interested in seeing the netters become more responsible can write and voice your support to:
Paul Wendler
Chairman, Lake Huron Citizens Advisory Committee
C/O Dr. Tammy Newcomb
Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Fisheries Division
P.O. Box 30028
Lansing, MI 48909-7528
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| Walleye Express
Any developements on this since last month? Any more news on the live big head carp market in Canada? Is that just in ontario? | |
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Member
Posts: 188
Location: Westland, Mich. | dan:
have you talked to anybody in the michigan united consevation club. they are always going after our gutless politicians trying to hold them accountable. | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | FuzzyIL - 8/3/2005 12:25 PM
Walleye Express
Any developements on this since last month? Any more news on the live big head carp market in Canada? Is that just in ontario?
Fuzzy.
I was told by a reliable/important source, that the stink I/we initially raised has caused the DNR to put this issue on it's discussion docket for their upcoming meeting concerning new laws for commercial fishermen. I've been promised that if any new laws or petitions concerning same gets started, I will be informed as to who and where to focus the interested parties attention. Lending concerned voices about this issue is about all I or any simple fisherman can do in our capacity. But it will be exactly what I do and ask others to do when and if this goes any further.
Edited by walleye express 8/3/2005 5:30 PM
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Member
Posts: 171
| I talked to my co-angler this weekend about commercial fishing on the Bay. It seems he has friends in the commercial industry. He said last week that his buds checked their nets out in 90' of water north of the Charities and found 258 walleyes in the nets, this compared to just 11 the week before. How many died? How many that died were simply thrown away to rot and become seagull food?
You may want to be careful about what you ask for Dan. What if the verdict that the State hands down says that all commercial fishing must end on the Bay, and it includes Charter Boats? What if they decide to limit the recreational harvest by decreasing the creel limit? What if they decide that the tournament kill rate is too high and they ban all tourneys on the Bay? These are just points that came to mind in thinking about the subject.
Dan, have you noticed the ridiculous amounts of small baitfish on the Bay this year? I have never seen anything like it. I'm not sure what they are but there are literally millions of these 1 1/2" long "minnows" (emerald shiners?) everywhere? I know it's off subject but I was wondering if you had a clue to what they were?
On another thought. What gamefish are native to the Great Lakes? Let's make a list.
Walleye
Lake Trout
Smallmouth
Largemouth
Brook Trout?
Steelhead (not Skamania)
Coho?
Pinks?
Muskie
Northern Pike | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Rob.
Charter fishing is not commercial fishing and is regulated as such. I do not harvest fish to be sold to the public, but instead provide a service to catch fish with sportfishing gear. Would I personally reduce my catch or charter frequencies to offset or appease the commercial guys if they had to reduce or change their fishing criterion and my doing so hinged on that fact? You bet I would. Now this might indeed put a monetary pinch on the guys who do this totally for their livelihood if this was the case, but I see the two elements/businesses as being like night and day, as does the DNR.
Now as far as all the baitfish your seeing, there's one specie your not seeing as many of this year and that's alewife. They are for the most part, almost extinct in Lake Huron now. Three continuous colder than normal winters, combined with the zebra mussels removing tons of their favorite summer food source "zoo plancton" from the water column, and they have been reduced to almost nothing. Now, when something in the food chain leaves or is displaced, everything having to do with and connected to it changes. Salmon are also becoming virtually extinct or stunted on Lake Huron because the alewife are almost gone. But the alewives also ate lots of other things during certain times of the year and during certain cycles in their lives.
Walleye fry was big on their forage list during late spring both in the rivers and when the fry would smolt out into the Bay/Lake. Now all of a sudden (in the last three years) we have tremendous natural reproduction survival of the walleyes. I've also been told that our herring, smelt and white fish totals have went up drastically these last three years as well. Seeing a pattern here? And I haven't even hit on the Goby explosion. All these things will change where, when and how we will catch our future walleys on the Bay and the lake. So seeing a migration of walleyes in 90 FOW might be part of this change as well. And That's it in a nut shell.
And you can remove Steelhead, Coho's and Pinks from your (native to the Great Lakes) list.   In fact the only true Char/Trout specie still remaining are the ones in Lake Superior. Their sub-specie is called leans and the others are what is called Fats, and were transplanted here after the native specie was all but wiped out in the late 70's by the Non-Native Lamprey eel.
Add Lake Sturgeon, Dog fish, Catfish, Garpike, and all the sunfish species, such as Rock Bass, bluegills, redears, crappies ect.
Edited by walleye express 8/9/2005 7:17 AM
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| You forgot to mention the Coaster Brook Trout as a native fish, also a member of the Char family. And of course walleyes! | |
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Member
Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Speck - 8/12/2005 1:35 AM
You forgot to mention the Coaster Brook Trout as a native fish, also a member of the Char family. And of course walleyes! :)
Yupper, your right Speck. They should be included. But when actually catching a Coastal Brookie becomes as rare as getting a Michigan Elk permit, one tends to forget about them. 
Edited by walleye express 8/12/2005 11:34 AM
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Trap Net info/Lets get writing.