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| Which circuit, the PWT or the FLW, over the past 2 years, was tougher to place in the top 30? Opinions from those that have fished both? Speculation from those who haven't? Let's hear it. | |
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Location: Sheboygan,WI | i have not fished either and give lots of credit to guys that have but i feel strongly the toughest field out there is the MWC. 220 boats at most events that is 440 pretty darn good anglers. The pro side of flw and pwt may be stronger but the descion making is on one mind and the team work factor is hard when you have a new partner every day. Also some mwc teams prefish seperate so thats alot more boats covering the water.
Just my opinion. | |
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Location: Fox Lake, Illinois | As far as the PWT goes, the new format has approx. 50 anglers going to the "elite" side. Some of those will fish both sides but not all. There are more openings on the regional side and this year, I think that there will be more rookies. (easier being new with other new guys) Last year with 120 pros fishing, they payed out 40 places. This year they are only paying out 30 for now. There are other opportunities to make money, such as with the Walleye Cup. Lund, Optima and Mercury are offering incentives for those fishing who have all three. | |
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Location: Rockford MN | This should be quite interesting! Nice topic Zach. I can't wait to hear all the posts to this one. If you are only talking "pro" tours, then I say it's a toss up. If you are talking any tour then there are alot of very tough ones to win on. Any win is very hard, when fishing on local tours you fish against some of the best that fish that given body of water. The difference in the "Pro" tours is you won't have half the field being strictly local talent.
Between the 2 true "pro" tours, over the past few years it's a toss up atleast I think. Some of the guys fish both, some of the fields have just been the local top talent and some are just main-stays on the given tours.
So to answers your question: The toughest of all tours are the ones that have "open formats" If you have a tour that is set from day one as far as anglers allowed to fish, chances are if that the field is say 120: You are fishing against about 50 teams in total maybe less. Some of the larger groups have 8 guys involved, so they can cover some water and have a good idea where every other angler is! | |
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| Almost have to go event by event. Some PWT events are on water where a team of anglers is very hot, same with FLW. Put them all on water they've never fished ever, and either circuit would be very tough. | |
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| I am not talking in the future, I am talking over the past 2 years, with the circuits as they were. Which do you thing was more difficult to place in the top 30. If you want to account for field size, say top 20 or 25%. | |
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Location: upper michigan | I would say its harder to beat out the top dogs in the pwt. But if you counted all players then I think the FLW has a tougher format to have a top 30 finish. The PWT has had the reputation of the best of the best and if you look back onto the wwr then you will see that most of the toop 30 guys have fished the pwt. | |
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| Zach,
Might suggest a post card be sent to all the competing anglers asking just that question. HOPEFULLY, a large percentage will reply. Participating co-anglers and general public opinion to those results would give complete peeer review and acceptance as to the answer to that question. X% of top pro's said THIS, X said THAT, part time competetors said Y, full time said Z and those fishing both chipped in with more of their most educated opinion. There will be winners and non-winners in the mix of opinions and reasons should accompany the answer. Once the pro's and co-anglers weigh in on it, then someone on the outside can form a real opinion. Maybe the NPAA will help, and you should be able to get a list from the PWT and FLW of co-anglers and competitors. Once peer reveiw and acceptance is in, no one could argue the validity of the formula. I guess as long as the feedback comes from a large percentage of the "walleye fishing world", other wise debate remains as to the variables. Major sponsors opinion would be good information too. What does Mercury, for instance thing is the tougher curcuit vs other major players in the industry. | |
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Posts: 625
Location: LaCrosse, WI | They are both tough circuits, the thing that makes this hard to determine is the fact that so many PWT anglers are going to the FLW after this whole Super Pro thing. This levels the playing field quite a bit. I think the PWT still has about 70% of the absolute best guys out there, but you will have bigger fields in the FLW. I'm not saying the FLW aren't good.
I'm saying it will be a toss up this year, but I would say PWT in the past 2 years. | |
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| Great idea DOC....  | |
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| How many FLW fishermen go fish the PWT, or should I say it the other way around? How many times has a PWT pro won a FLW event should be the question? Maybe that could be a way to see who has done better in the last 2 years. There are very good fishermen in both circuits. But comparing is hard to do without them actually facing off. Unless you use the way I mentioned above. | |
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Location: Rockford MN | WalleyeFIRST - 3/4/2006 6:58 PM
I am not talking in the future, I am talking over the past 2 years, with the circuits as they were. Which do you thing was more difficult to place in the top 30. If you want to account for field size, say top 20 or 25%.
Based on this I would say the FLW, only because at any given event you had atleast 30 guys that were the top local talent on that body of water. The PWT has the same guys at every event fishing against each other. The larger the fields of people fishing all the tour the weaker it gets. I only say this because the best anglers on the bodies of water are not fishing, because they can't per the rules. The 2 tours have different rules and in-turn goals. The PWT has turned in to a "protect" the anglers that fish with them. While the FLW has been about getting more people to fish with them by letting anyone in. The locals are not going to pay $1,400 per event unless they are the best of the best on that body of water! So yes they take a few of the top spots away from the anglers fishing the whole tour, but they also raise the strenght of the field by being there. | |
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| I am not trying to start a controvery, just want to get a feel for what the general opinion is out there. We have the actual data from the last 3 years of anglers theat have fished both tours, and know what the hard data tells us, just wondering how that lines up with public opinion.
So, what's your opinion? | |
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| I'm guessing that there are more "pro's" willing to cross over and fish the FLW than there are willing to cross over and compete on the PWT. If you take a hard look at the guys who's names we've come to know lately, you will see that the so called "newbies" have made their names fishing the FLW, yet none of them have crossed over and taken a shot on the PWT side.
I would suggest a good comparison would be to take a look at the standings for the last couple years in the "Angler of the Year" on each circuit. Heck, look at the WWR, in the top 30 there are more that fish either both, or only the PWT, than fish both or only the FLW.
In the end, I'd have to say that the PWT is still the toughest circuit for a pro to earn his stripes on.
Edited by JLDII 3/5/2006 1:13 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Doing an opinion poll of Pro’s will not work. Your responses will be predictable with almost everyone saying that the tournament series they fish is tougher.
Since we are talking about the past here, I’d say that the PWT “was” tougher. I’d say that it was more difficult to get into, and more difficult to stay in. For this coming year, I’d say that the PWT Elite is the toughest and the FLW and PWT regional are equal. I would never say that any of these circuits had the best anglers. I would make my calculations on who had the most “great anglers” or the best of the best.
I do not think that the “cross over” analogies mentioned earlier have great validity. There can be many reasons why someone moves from one circuit to another or does both. Quite frankly, I believe that there were a lot of feelings hurt when the elite circuit came out. There were a lot of people who boasted to sponsors in the past, saying they were some of the best anglers in the nation. If they did not make the elite list some felt hurt or slighted. Some felt they lost face with sponsors.
The second reason why I believe the cross over analogy is faulty.
The PWT used to be the only game in town. Those anglers had nothing to cross over too. Unless you’re new to the game and didn’t do national circuits 5 years ago, you had to cross over from the PWT to the FLW. This alone skews your statistics (at least for now).
Third
People do different circuits for different reasons. People may cross over because of their affiliation with certain sponsors; because they feel there is more financial bang for their buck; because they like the schedule; or because they feel they can get more exposure. Moving around from one to another doesn’t show strength or perceptions of strength or weakness.
Bottom line.
If the WWR system is valid and has credibility, the statistical analysis should reveal your answer. This is true only if the data is correct, up to date and the criteria is genuine. BUT I also warn you that you need enough data (or history) to see trends. A two year track record may not be statistically valid and/or the data collected so far from the WWR may not be sufficient in size to show creditable answers ……….. yet.
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Location: Rockford MN | WalleyeFIRST - 3/5/2006 12:53 AM
I am not trying to start a controvery, just want to get a feel for what the general opinion is out there. We have the actual data from the last 3 years of anglers theat have fished both tours, and know what the hard data tells us, just wondering how that lines up with public opinion.
So, what's your opinion?
Well lets see that data then! It should say alot for the past 2 years. | |
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| I don't understand what you mean't by the crossover shouldn't matter. If the PWT anglers are the best then why don"t they win every tourney in the FLW they do? No matter what, none of us can say which is better. There are great fishermen on both. And also in the other team circuits around the country. Example: If a guy or gal fished the PWT for a couple years and finished in the top 10, 80% of the time and then swithed over to the FLW and finished in the bottom 40 boats, does that mean he is still one of the best out there? Do you only give him or her credit for when he or she does well? Yes you do hear alot about the fishermen in the PWT but it has also been around longer I love to fish tourneys myself its the competition . Anyone can be beat on any given day. Fishing can be unpredictable.
Never give up till the clock gets to zero is my philosophy. Lets have fun this year Zach. | |
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| Zach, What does tough mean?
If your fishing here, you need to spill your guts on what you are trying to catch!
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 3/5/2006 8:18 AM
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| Just wondering what the thoughts are on the subject, what the public opinion is...and why. No more no less. | |
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| There all pretty challenging, but fun!! Lots of eyes to be caught, and its fun learning new water!
www.cedarrivercharters.com
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Location: Rhinelander | I'd bet you could get 'TOUGHER!!' comments from anglers fishing either. | |
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Location: Green Bay, WI. | In 2002 I ended up 42nd on the year only fishing 3 events in the FLW Tour. And I can tell you it was tough. When I would look around before takeoff and the fog is lifting off water, I would see the same guys as if you were watching an Infisherman Video. And I would think to myself what am I doing here. But then I would throw my .41 cents in the water for the fish gods and remind myself that I'm here to KICKA$$ & CASH a Check hopefully!
Then include the local fisherman that makes it even tougher.
The FLW Championship 200+ boats I ended up 13th in 2004.
Unfortunately I missed some events because of back & shoulder surgeries between 2003-2005, otherwise I might be more qualified to answer.
I know which Tour I think is the toughest. It will be the one "I'M FISHING" in 2007 | |
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Location: Fox Lake, Illinois | Which circuit is tougher? I wish that I had a partner that I knew every move that he made.You all know that when fishing with the same person, after a while you know what the other is going to do, how they are going to do it, you don't even need to talk to be able to exchange what needs to be done. You have confidence in that person and you know that as a team, you can do well. Try fishing with a partner that has never picked up a pole before, a person that is "paying a guide", a person that is looking for that once in a lifetime experience. Try fishing with that person, but a different person every single day and tell me which curcuit is easier. You wish that you had a partner that could prefish for you, that knew what to do when you say "fish on". But... you do the best that you can, luck of the draw. Is there an advantage to having the same partner day in and day out? Hm..... | |
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| I still say you can't put a mathamatical formula to it at this time because of the difference in a 3 day, "all in it till the end" field, and "4 day with cut downs" event UNLESS all participants, sponsors and tournament directors weight in on the subject, with their reasons. Then that information is compared to the data you collected, then reviewed by the general public for acceptance. Heck, FLW events might be tougher all year if they are bad weather and PWT events are in good weather. Or is it tougher to win when the fish are biting for everyone or does that hurt the "teams" who like tough, very spot specific bites. Or do they?? Is it easier to win in your own boat?? How much easier. Might make more of a difference to some and be a non-factor for others. Are spectators and competators who follow the leaders more of a problem in any curcuit?? Does not having that, (tail pipers) in a cut down event level the playing field "if" the PWT is considered tougher. How many winners come from outside the top ten on the last day?? Can't take a small sampling of opinion and make a mathamatical formula that is supposed to represent the "walleye world". It's totally insignificant unless it represents the walleye worlds understanding of the events, their difficulty and basis for the formula and then be subject to peer review. Once that is done, no one could argue because it's the accepted standard based on the mentioned factors. Does the "formula" take weather in to consideration, distance from the weigh-in site to the "winning fish" and other variables? Things like that could sure make one tournament a heck of a lot tougher to win then another. My opinion is that you could just as well list the top anglers in each curcuit on one walleye rankings page and let page views tell the sponsors the story. That in itself would be doing the viewers more of a service then anything. If you see a guys picture in the top on two curcuits, then you know he's doing pretty good. If viewers are looking at all angler bios on the Superpro page, 75 deep on the PWT page and only 50 deep on the FLW page, well then you've got a better idea of what the public is thinking.
You said opionion 
Zach, my post is made with all respect and applaud your continued effort to sculpt your project. | |
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Posts: 279
Location: Rockford MN | Doc
You just listed fishing! Some days are good, others are not. Some days you have people all over you when you get the net. Some days you have to go and find fish, others they are in the same old spots. Tournament fishing is no different than any other form of fishing. The stakes are just higher. It still boils down to catching fish! No matter the condictions, it's about adapting to the changes and figuring things out better than the rest of field.
The difference in day of the event are really a non factor, they only use the top 10 on 1 tour for the last day. You had 3 days to prove you belong in the 1st place. How many times have guys come from more than 10 down? I have no idea. But why reward guys that had one good day over guys that have had 3 good enough days to be where they are? Plus now if you make that top 10 you will get FAR more air time!
To make it to the top 15% at a tournament takes skill and some luck. Skill is finding the fish in the 1st place and being able to adapt to how they change. Luck is getting the right bites, or the right fish over the other 85% of the field. So ranking anglers based on fininshes is the only true way to have this system. Other factors like who else is fishing, and what waters you are fishing is a NON factor. I say that because someone will still win and someone will take 10th or last place.
The very best anglers, seem to find a way to make it towards the top. Sure some have the best "teams" but they are consistant, which means they adapt to the changes. The best of the best have it all, they are the best at finding, catching, adapting, and reading all the signs. Some of the best anglers listed are NOT all of these things- some of these guys are just great at catching fish. Huge networks of anglers show them where and when, then they do what they do best! Catch and cash!
People just jumping into the ranks, even if they are one of the best (meaning they find them and catch them constantly no matter where) STILL have a hard time. Because they are not up against 120 or 150 individual anglers, but large groups of the best or better anglers. You may find a spot and have it all to yourself (or so you think) but you can bet that atleast 1 of these groups will find you! When they do you better bring a lunch, it's like 5-8 boats against 1. The "elite" anglers of today are trying very hard to ensure there safety in this sport. In the end it's just fishing, catch the right ones do well, catch the wrong ones do poorly. No matter what tour you fish it's still hard to make the top 20 (which is what this topic was about) If you rank anglers based on finish, you find that the guys that are at the top of this game are all listed! Maybe some of the guys that fish all 3 or 2 of the 3 finish better on 1 tour over another because they have a "team" in place to do so. They might have 8 guys on 1 tour but only 3 on another? You can bet that everyones opinions will be different, in the end it just walleye fishing. 99% of the people in this country don't care. The 1% love to catch walleyes and want to be apart of all this in one way or another. If this ranking system breaks down who is doing well NOW then that only helps the fans of this sport. | |
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| You want to know what I think, Zach!?? It is absolutely hard to finish in the top 30! HA!
Is it hard to make the top 30? Depends who you are, more than what tour you are fishing. PWT ot FLW, I really think it depends more who YOU are. If you are Tommy Skarlis, and you fish both circuits, I'd say your chances of finishing in the top 30 are about equal. Read that to mean pretty darn good! If you are Dan Plautz, you fish both, and your chances are about equal. Again, pretty darn good! I could list more in this category, but I hope you get my drift.
I believe it all depends on your talent, and that of your team. I think the best teams will always be towards the top. Arguably the best team on the FLW Tour does not fish the PWT. If they did, I would expect they would have the same results.
Edited by Shep 3/6/2006 9:22 AM
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| I vote for the 220 volt AC circuit.
Never, ever stick a bobby pin into one of those suckers. Ouch!  | |
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| I agree Shep! | |
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Which circuit is tougher ??