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Location: Rhinelander | With all the discussion about the WWR and different circuits, I thought I'd toss this one out there. We all know the difference between a Promotional person and a Professional, so let's stick to the latter.
Last year, the PWT defined anyone who fished 3 events; one full division, a 'touring' Pro. The FLW did the same for any angler fishing the full field of events. This year, the PWT has changed the format some, so the bar has been raised to 4 events. Of course, there are those who will fish a couple events this year in the regionals and FLW, but they are considered as anglers trying out the Pro feel of things, new blood, and returning Pros who simply can't fish the entire circuit. they will not be ranked, but have a definite effect on those who might be.
The WWR only ranks anglers who are considered touring Pros by the industry who have performed over a consecutive period of years/months. There have been those who'd like to see it even more restricted, and redefine the definition of the term to fit their interests or concepts. So far it seems the industry has done the job defining that term, and it's protocol for sports ranking sysytems that the Walleye and Bass Pros shouldn't have any hand in that process any more than the Tennis or Golf Pros do. That is especially true of the top 10% of the Pros out there, it's to their interest to STAY in the top 10% and restrict access to that level as much as is possible. Sports rankings are not there for the manipulation of the Pros or the Schools, Teams or owners the indistries say, they are there for the fans. I tend to agree, and am sometimes at odds philosophically with some of the general concepts put forth by professional associations and promoters as a result.
This goes to the age old argument that without the players, there is no sport. That's true, but tremendously tightly dialed in in a somewhat tenuous and self focused reality. Without the PLATFORM provided by the owners and the Leagues, the promoters and the industry, those players would be lawyers, accountants, and restaraunt owners, competing locally for kicks on the weekends. One probematic reality with the sport of competitive fishing ( other than the fact it's still in it's infancy compared to other venues) is that it parallels other sports where it's individual talent against individual talent, much like tennis or golf. One must take care to play only tournaments that reflect the best possible results if Ranking and making the 'grade' is a concern, because it is POSSIBLE for a Ranked Golf or Tennis Pro to WIN a tournament, and lose serious ground because of that events value in the system. One must do one's very best to play events that will get one into desired national events and championships.
So who decides who is and who is NOT a touring Pro? And why is the reality of today such a bad model, if it's worked over and over and over again for other 'individual' sports? Unless we are seeking a Walleye or Bass 'Olympics', I fail to see a viable alternative. Do you, and if so, what might it be? | |
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| Interesting read.
One thing though. Not sure how a professional golfer can win an event and go backwards in the rating system. Since the top 125 on the money list get their tour card for the next year and most, even single event winners, make enough to get there. So I'm not sure what you were meaning. Each winner is also exempt for the next weeks event. That means they don't have to qualify, a big benefit.
Also in golf any amateur can pay the fee and attempt to qualify for most events, that is except the championships. So I could go to Dretska, pay the money and try to make the Greater Milwaukee Open. Tiger Woods was given a sponsors exemption to play in his first Milwaukee Open, and entered as an amateur. It was only when he cashed his first check, which may have included appearance money, that he was considered a professional golfer.
So, cash a check, get your pro card. Make it so you have to have a pro card to fish the bigger events. So, you have to have cashed a check, (larger then your entrance fee) in a tournament in the last X amount of years to get in. Would make cashing a check in even a small "recognized" event very important important.
Again, interesting point of view regarding the top 10%.
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Steve.
I'll take your post literally.
A Walleye Pro to me is a person who sacrifices his time, his money and (often) his/her family obligations for both the love and competiton of the sport. He competes and pits his knowledge ans aquired skills with like minded others, for both present and continued cash rewards in all facits of his chosen sport. But his success is not only measured by winning, but by the respect of both his fans and his peres, and is as much about the professionalism he achives and what history remembers and says about him, while excelling in the particular sport he loves.
Edited by walleye express 3/10/2006 8:20 AM
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| A pro angler is a person that fishes a tournament circuit that has a true national championship. You must EARN the right through the given tour to be in that championship.
Today it seems a select few guys are trying to take it upon themselfs to set industry standards, these people are strickly out to protect themselfs! They feel that up and coming guys should have to follow what they set forth. These same indivduals were the ones that made this whole thing of sponsorships what it has become today. Somehow fishing a tour has become a who do you know thing. It used to be how good you are! People are always trying to ruin a good thing with there own beliefs on how things should be run. Some little "club" is out to change the world, the only thing they want is to control who, what, where, when and why! This makes me sick that people are so willing to follow, and they can't even see what the agenda is.
Pro anglers are people who fish Pro Tournaments, they fish for the love, competition, the right to be called one of the best!
PLEASE don't ruin a good thing with all the seperation of anglers, make it OPEN to all and grow the sport! | |
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| Very strtictly speaking, I agree with Capt Dan's appraisal. I would speculate that in the strict sense of the term "professional' would have to include those old salts that do this for a majority of their income/time committment and that would include Capt Dan, Larry Smith and their ilk.
Regarding the developing, current system, the walleye world is still seeking its place in the matrix. The BASS model seems to work well and it appears that through its fits and starts, the walleye tournement scene is trying to emulate the BASS model.
PWT, FlW, et all, will work through this and the angler will end up helping determine the format via his/her participation.
With all the smaller tournements available, I thing the system is developing quite well. It may cause some consternation with some who feel a glass ceiling at the larger formats, but I don't have a dog in that fight.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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| About the only definition of a Pro fisherman that seems to have stood the test of time is a completely nonemotional, nonjudgemental one. A pro angler is one who either is compensated for his service,(for example guides and and those fortunate enough to be paid by sponsors to fish ), and any one who pays an entry fee for an event that actually pays something of value to part of the field.
Now if the question is : define Full-time Pro Fisherman.... I would have to say it was anyone who actually makes the majority,(85%), of their living from guiding fisherman , fishing tourneys , seminars, endorsements, a slick one "Consulting", paid for fishing a TV show, contributing to a fishing magazine out of their own fishing trips, and compensate product testers.
Fortunately for those who also are involved in Bass fishing the number of actual full-time pros is larger fo some previously discussed obvious reasons...
The huge majority of what lots of folks call "Real" Pro fisherman especially in the walleye ranks are pay to play fisherman that pay from and earn the majority of their income in another usually totally unassociated field.
I can sum it up with my very first encounter with a " completely sponsored pro fisherman".. We were both fishing a tourney and decided to team up and fish together a little in prefishing.. I was quite impressed with his rig ,his tackle, and frankly his fishing skill. "yup he said my sponsors take care of all of this and my entries". Okay now I'm really excited..."how the heck do you pull that off being relatively new to tourneys and without any substantial record". I just called, sent letters, or asked personally. TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT HERE... #1 HE PAYED FULL PRICE FOR THE BOAT WHAT HE CALLED SPONSORSHIP WAS THE BOAT SHOP DOING ROUTINE MAINTENANCE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN THE WARRANTY. #2 HIS TACKLE WAS ALL FROM SMALL PECENTAGE DISCOUNTS VIP programs. #3 HIS DAD BOUGHT THE BOAT FOR HIM AND HE WAS PAYING IT BACK EVENTUALLY#4 HIS ENTRY FEES WERE PAID BY A GRANDMOTHER AS A GIFT WHILE HE WORKED A FULL-TIME JOB OUTSIDE THE FISHING INDUSTRY.
ONE OTHER CATERGOREY IS THE PRO WHO HAS A BENAFACTOR WHO USUALLY IS INVOLVED IN ALMOST ALL OF THE FISHERMANS ACTIVITIES,(PREFISHING, PUBLIC PRESENTATIONS, TRADE SHOWS) ... HARD NOT TO CALL MOST OF THE FISHERMAN IN THIS CATEGORY FULL-TIME PROS BECAUSE IN MANY CASES THE ONLY REASON THE PERSON WANTS TO SHARE THE EXPERIENCE IS BECAUSE THE PRO IS ONE OF THE BEST OF THE BEST WITH A PROVEN RECORD AND WINS AT THE TOP LEVELS OF COMPETITION.
SO WHAT ABOUT THE GROUP OF GUYS OR GALS THAT LIVE SIMPLY, AND FISH SMALL, MEDIUM AND REGIONAL EVENTS, AND SELL FISHING PRODUCTS AND OR GUIDE FISHING CUSTOMERS , AND AFTER THEY ADD UP THEIR EARNINGS EACH YEAR AND SUBTRACT EVERY EXPENSE STILL MAKE 80% OR SO OF THEIR LIVING AND END UP SOMEWHERE ABOVE THE POVERTY LEVEL????? I HAVE TO CALL THEM A FULL-TIME PRO FISHERMAN. | |
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| Can you say "NPAA" ?
No more
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| Doc, it happens all the time in golf, win an event with a weak field and your ranking drops.
On the other side of the coin, strength of field calculations also tend to perpetuate the same people at the top, since the top ranked anglers (or in this example, golfers) carry their SOF with them, thus evey time they participate in an event the SOF score will be high for that event. You have to be careful with SOF influence on tournament score for these reasons. (Maybe this is what some groups want? Great, but not very accurate or representative)
Additionally, SOF can be misleading or inaccurate in fishing tournaments that allow local one-time anglers to fish an event for a reason that Gordy brought forth earlier. Location is much more important in fishing than it is in a sport like golf or football. Example, an unranked local angler like Glenn Chenier on a tournament at Bay de Noc would probably influence the true SOF much much more than a highly ranked angler like Nick Johnson, but basing SOF solely on factors like current rank would not take this into account.
Maybe SOF scores in events like this could be better accomplished with a ranking-based component and one that assigned points to each angler based upon hometown zip-code proximity to the tournament location ??? | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | IMHO, a Pro is simply one who dedicates as much time to his sport as life, family, work and other responsibilities allows them. Wether they pay for their expenses or are sponsored. Wether they are a big name or just starting out. However, this same person will, promote his/her sport in a professional manner, teach someone something they know well, encourage others in their sport to do the same, and most of all, not let their sport take anything away from what means the most to them like family and friends. Here's hoping all of us can be happy with what we do and call ourselves PRO's. Just my two cents! | |
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Location: Rockford MN | If you asked fishermen you would get 50 different answers from 100 guys. If you ask the tours they will tell you it's the people who fish with them. If you ask a sponsor.... well most don't care, as long as you sell product and show that you are. If you ask the NPAA they will say it's just there top 100. So who is right?
The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me. There is NO profit sharing or stock options in fishing! Some guys that fish pro tours, would NEVER consider quiting a very good paying job or selling the business they started years ago, all for the right to be "called" a pro fishermen! Some guys have WAY to much into companies they would NEVER consider giving it all up for a name.
You can go round and round about who is what. I think it's up to each guy to make the most of what they have. NO sponsor is beating down doors giving away the farm for walleye anglers. You can go all over the internet and find out how to approach compaines. You can also get the contacts by simply calling the companies. In the end it's up to each angler to show the company what you can do for them.
All this junk about who is a "pro" who is ranked higher and what tour does the most for the sport is getting old! The same guys are always the ones trying to stir the pot. The same group are the ones that are trying thier hardest to make it as hard as possible for guys to get past all the politics and just fish. At the end of each event there will be a winner and a guy who ends up last. Nothing will ever change with that format. The best are the ones that find thier way towards the top a lot of the time. They have made the most of how the system works, they pair up or have have networks of locals or do what ever to make sure they are informed on any body of water. The guys who make it a point to work soley in this industry and fish "pro" tours just earn their income differently than the guy sitting at his desk for for a corp... No one or group has the right to tell that guy that he's not a "pro" because he has choosen to hold a 9-5 job. Many guys have kids, many guys are not willing to invest the road hours to work for sponsors on weekends. Heck they just worked all week and earned a good living, now they have to be away from there families for the weekend?
I personaly spend about 6-8 weeks a year away from the ones I love. It's very hard on the wife, she works a very stressful jobs and has to cover "all" the home duties while I'm away. If someone tells me I can't be a "pro" fishermen unless I'm making most of my living by doing so, I say to h*** with them! You have to do whats right by your family 1st and fish fish second. These pipe dreams that get filled into peoples heads has cost many a good guy more than just some money, they have lost everything (wife&kids).
When you look in the mirror at the end of an event, and you gave it your all. You just played a game against others just like you. Win or lose you were fishing against other pro's, NO matter what someone or group was trying to "name" you! | |
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Location: Darboy USA | Gordy,
EXCELLENT post! I couldn't have said it better myself. I know of one very good walleye fisherman that I sure would call a pro, but he continues to work his job, spend time with family, take others out fishing, etc. He is a PRO in every sense of the word, but doesn't get caught up in what he should be called, he just likes to fish! Isn't that the bottom line???
I'm all for tournament fishing and tournament fishermen, but I agree, sometimes it's gets old hearing somebody telling everyone, I AM A PRO FISHERMAN, blah, blah, blah....... | |
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| Gordie---"The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me" glad to hear someone elses opinion is a joke to you. ( no offense taken just a "little" surprising). The to H*** with anyone who expresses the opinion that I did you posted farther down in your post., I do take offense with. Not because it's me but because that language is totally uncalled for. I have a very simple question, does a professional plumber, carpeter, engineer, banker, lawyer work another job so they can be called a professional in the fields above. No. I have never been shy about it.... I fish to make money...guiding , tourneys, Commercial fishing(catfish & rough fish again this year). I am not now or never expect to be a purest. Doing it for the Sport. Do I still almost whoop at every fish into the boat... yup I enjoy catching fish.
But I do not meet my description For professional tourney angler(Walleye Pro").... no where near the majority of my income comes from Fishing. I repair computers,(1500+ last year), and farm Meat and vegetables , and sell fishing products at shows and online for the majority of my income. In years past I did make near 90% but not any more.
In defense of all the opinions including Gordy's, if you look under Websters definition of a professional you will find as many of the assorted definitions,(note the part of speech they are noun or adjective), have to do with the manner that someone does something as much or More than whether it is his or her main lively hood... but I gave my opinion right or wrong and respect others.
Edited by Mountain Man 3/8/2006 5:38 PM
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| it's funny! you can ask the top walleye pro's like Gary parson and Kieth k,Gary gray, and the rest of the really top pro's that got there start on the mwc and the pwt,and i bet none of them would tell you they are pro's.we just all know they are. | |
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| Mountain Man - 3/8/2006 5:27 PM
Gordie---"The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me" glad to hear someone elses opinion is a joke to you. ( no offense taken just a "little" surprising). The to H*** with anyone who expresses the opinion that I did you posted farther down in your post., I do take offense with. Not because it's me but because that language is totally uncalled for. I have a very simple question, does a professional plumber, carpeter, engineer, banker, lawyer work another job so they can be called a professional in the fields above. No. I have never been shy about it.... I fish to make money...guiding , tourneys, Commercial fishing(catfish & rough fish again this year). I am not now or never expect to be a purest. Doing it for the Sport. Do I still almost whoop at every fish into the boat... yup I enjoy catching fish.
But I do not meet my description For professional tourney angler(Walleye Pro").... no where near the majority of my income comes from Fishing. I repair computers,(1500+ last year), and farm Meat and vegetables , and sell fishing products at shows and online for the majority of my income. In years past I did make near 90% but not any more.
In defense of all the opinions including Gordy's, if you look under Websters definition of a professional you will find as many of the assorted definitions,(note the part of speech they are noun or adjective), have to do with the manner that someone does something as much or More than whether it is his or her main lively hood... but I gave my opinion right or wrong and respect others.
Read my post as you may! You can bring up the pro thing about other fields, simple fact that every day someone NEDDS one of these people to fix something! NEVER has or does this industry need pro tournament fishermen to SELL product! Long before we had walleye events there were millions of rods, reels, tackle sold!
You can read me that NPAA "OLD" act all you want, they may have got you brainwashed but that dog won't hunt here anymore! NO one NEEDS pro fishing except the guys that do it! Sure some nice things have have come about in products that relate to fishing tournaments, but did the industry really need that to make it happen? NO!
INTEREST in the sport is what draws monet to it! I heard all that mumbo jumbo they were pushing, but to truely grow a sport you NEVER restrict it. You NEVER divide anglers because YOU want a title over the next guy. YOU build the sport by opening your arms and bring people in. I'm sad that this club is trying to take things upon themselfs for there select few. Just read there board with an open mind, and tell me that it's NOT only about them! Then they have the balls to come on here and ask questions of a ranking system? You got to be kidding me! They only want there top 100 ranked, that excludes EVERYONE that is not a memeber. Even if you are one of the true top tour anglers, unless you play there little game they want you out!
You tell me what a pro is? A pro fishermen is NOT a Doctor or Lawyer, or school teacher!!! | |
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| Gordie I read it the way you posted it then saved it and printed it, and I think I will frame it . It is exactly the reason I dissappeared from these board for almost 2 years. Thanks for reminding me lol | |
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| Mountainman, I know gordy and he puts exclamation points at the end of every sentence but don't take that as yelling, he just is expressing his opinion strongly, as you did. I didn't read it as a personal attack, just his opinion, for what it's worth. Enjoy many of your posts, esp the one about your kid fishing with you. Have a good one. | |
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| Please don't feel that I'm trying to single you out here! I'm just speaking my mind. I'm sick of all the people trying so hard to make tournament anglers above regular anglers, why do you think people have such mast opinions about tounaments? It's because this is how they see us, we have given them no choice. Then "we" fight amongst ourselfs as to who is what. If they want a union they should just start one and be done with it! If you let a web-site board just because you have a different opinion than someone else, then these boards are not for you. If you want to fight the good fight (your opinion) then you have every right to stand up and be heard. I'm not knocking you, I'm knocking the system and what some people are trying to make of it. | |
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| Gordy,
I was reading this thread and then I got your post and it realy interested me and if I am reading right got me a little mad. are you saying that certain people want walleye first work there walleye rankings to leave out those anglers that aren't a member of the npaa? | |
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| Basiclly yes. They want there own system or want walleyefirst to give them sort of speical treatment to the members of there group. They want to seperate all tour anglers into groups (or aleast thats the way I'm reading it) Group "A" is the list of there top 100 everyone else is in group "B" the only catch is now they want strength of field? Well thats never going to work when the fields are not open to all. I understand what they want, they want the "top dogs" to be the only ones ranked. Guys don't seem to have much problem using the ranking system for there own personal gain now, so what good would a new system that they install do? Oh thats right it would be a exclusive to there club.
Who makes up there mind what a stong field is? Isn't a strong field, a field that is open to any angler? If they open that can of worms, the only anglers in the top 25 rankings will be in the PWT SP field, because they would control it all. I have all the respect in the world for the guys that made the Super Pro, they all earned the spots. However take the top guys from the other tours- the Top dogs on the FLW and the PWT and just because they don't fish the SP they will not get the rankings they might deserve. Anyone who thinks a Nick Johnson (the highest ranked FLW only guy) does not deserve to be ranked where he is based on what he has done (on the water) should have there head examined. Yet it seems that is what they want? | |
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New User
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| Sworral, I did the blog thing. First time, but I had a lot of thoughts on the subject.
Enjoy.
Lena | |
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| This time I didn't take it personal... just offended by the language and the way things got over the top and frankly I'm sick of that in forums... Don't want to get into yet another conspiracy theory here, because first of all I have been so far from the top where this is or isn't going on that anything I would say would be only guessing. I'm not now or have I ever been a member of NPAA , (don't know why except that I'm to cheap to pay the money),but the guys I have associated with that were didn't seem any different to me.
But back to Gordys issue on one being better than this or that. On this site and another when the a discussion came up some time back which was obviously us vs them regarding who is better,( and trust me I never saw the us vesus them coming in this one),I answered that with a true story... heres the short version. Just got back from 2nd at national championship in a AAA walleye series and went to enjoy a day of fishing on the fishing barge in Genoa..a sponsor, long time freinds, and place where lots of buddys fish. Close freind to my surprise came up to me and Not kidding said," Now that you won that boat and finished second I suppose you think your better than us". After getting over the amazement I said " John Doe how many fisherman are on the barge to day. " 80 0r 90". I said, "lets say there are 88", so of that eighty eight there are Eighty six that are better walleye fishermen than me... ofcourse he fell right into the trap and ask who's 88th and realized what I was saying as soon as the words had left his mouth.
I still remmeber when after training all year and getting higher in the ranks of cross country in high school getting demolished in gym class in a long distance race,( gym coach was kind of an over doer), by a classmate who simply chose not to go out for sports and other than hunting alot ,(he was a high school hunting buddy), didn't train or run much at all. I mean according to the time he ran he was ,(back then), an world class distance runner.
People do what they want at what level they want and that doesn't now or at anytime in the past or future make them better or worse than anyone else,(although they may very well be better),.. but back to what I thought this post was about... to me one's profession,(PRO or Professional), is what that person does for his or her living. Had the question been what is your opinion of on who are or is, or what group, is or are the best walleye tournament fishermen... I could of answered that question with the fishing float story... even though in my heart I would have being saying >>>That's an easy one "ME".
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| Professional? define professional? are we speaking about making a living or the way they compose their selves? Making a living is proving to be quite difficult as most will attest. Acting in a professional matter? Well that seems to be disappearing too. | |
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Location: Rockford MN | Mountain Man
I agree, and thats what my post was about. The total seperation of anglers and the bickering about who is better and which tour and all the rest. I do feel that to many guys are using organizations or tours or what ever for their own personal agendas, which is seperate from the goal of being a pro fishermen.
I like some of things the NPAA does, the youth programs are fantasic. It just scares me when other things don't fit the main goals they have listed. I went back in and looked on the site as to the exact goals. Here they are and I believe they make sense, and would be good for the sport of tournament fishing.
1) To increase the Professionalism of our members
2) To grow the sport of fishing and the industry as a whole.
Both very good ideas and a true must to grow the sport to the level of say a "Bass". I'm just finding it hard to understand how the bickering over which tour is better is helping with the NPAA goals. They have the right idea's, but are these goals in the fore front or are "some" people using the open forums for a hidden agenda? I can't seem to figure any of that out. Hopefully some day soon all the tour anglers and the general fishing public will come to a understanding that this is a good thing no matter what level you are on. Hopefully this sport takes the right turn and for the betterment of all fishing. At some point when all the dust clears over who is better and which tour is better everyone that does this for a living or for the love of it, can and will be on the same page?
Both tours are needed and now even all 3 tours are good for this sport. Why we need or feel the need to prove that one is better for the sport is what worries me. It worries me when "some" people want growth and then they turn around, when another venue opens and fight about how it's not good for the sport. I don't like everything any of the tours does or stands for, I just choose one that fits me at this time.
In the end I'm all for total growth in the sport and in tournaments. I just wish some would see the whole picture and not just what good for them now. The NPAA has done some good things for the sport, I just wish some people would not use it as a platform for there personal goals over the goals of the sport and what the NPAA was founded for. I hope that makes sense to you? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Let's try to refocus this.
I was in part asking the question to see if the industry definition matches the general public's perception of what makes a Pro a Pro from a Competition based definition. The FLW and PWT are currently the only venues that have a Pro/Co angler format, the rest are Team. When the PWT was formed, the general concept was the ability to move from a Team format to a Pro format, and the FLW followed suit.
If the FLW defines any one angler as a Pro, and the PWT defines any one angler as a Pro or Super Pro, then is that the 'gold standard'? Is a Pro who fishes all three to be considered any differently than a Pro who fishes one? Is there any other definition that isn't totally personally subjective, based on 'feelings', not data, and actual performance? | |
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Location: Appleton wi | and is there a difference between a "touring walleye pro" and a walleye pro? | |
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Location: Rockford MN | I think that has been left up to the organizations that run the model for us the product. So they have made the labels as to what level we are on. So far atleast. Is that what you were getting at Steve? | |
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| I think it's very simple. A walleye pro (on a competitive angling level, I assume that's what we are talking about) is someone who fishes either the entire FLW Walleye Tour, the entire PWT Regional Division, or the entire PWT Super Pro Division. There's 4 tournaments in each of these circuits. | |
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| Boy Gordy if you think this is bad you should see what is going on Right now with the dividing up between two organizations of the Bass Fedration... I think a guys gonna need a bullet proof vest pretty soon, and even though that is a slight exageration it is getting Pretty Sad. I agree with you about the expansion of the sport whether it is for weekend fishing or tournaments. My son who has decided to come back to tourneys and I were just discussing where some middle of the roaders as a Team,(triple AAA ers), go to compete in a national series as a team that has a true national championship with real rewards. Guys can say what they want about the old USFA Team walleye, and things might not have worked out for Bernie in The GNWC but they were where Brian and I belonged. Quite honestly as a team at this point I believe the MWC is way out of our league so we find ourselves right now Plannning to fish a series with Steve over at WWA,(great teams just not quite the same equipment requirement... I fish tourneys right now out of my 16'9" guide boat with a 30 or 50 on it), hoping that now that he has a clear field ahead with little competition that it will evolve into what we are looking for. I have never had a better fishing tournament experience in my life than when we fished his division of USFA Team Walleye. But in reality this year we are putting most of our eggs in the "Bass Basket". Right now 4 or more legitimate national Team series , with legitimate NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS, and legitimate rewards at their national championship have divisions right here at home in the La Crosse area.. I wish I could say that about Walleye fishing Tournaments. If I had the choice between how big and how many compared to can you trick these suckers into biting at all,( Bass VS Walleye), in these conditions with the three criteria met above I would take the hardbitters. ( again this is my opinion... please don't anybody start a battle over whether my decriptions of the two fish are right or wrong)
Jayman you are right ::: as I mentioned in a post above even websters dictionary in its many definitions of Professional has many more regarding "how or the quality of how a task is done" than the financial rewards or making a living aspect. Again I was just saying what I perceived as my definition of A WALLEYE PRO ... I may fish like a god, but contrary to what some people think I don't think I'm God,( to quote an past tournament partner " a know it all"...) its just an opinion.
I've been fishing for 46 years, competing in some type of competion for 20+ and guiding for about 16 years now and sometimes maybe I have way, way, Way, Way to much time on my hands to think about this and it shows up in my posts. A close freind of mind says I have a "Terminal case of the Rush Limbaugh Syndrome" but there I went and opened up another can of worms didn't I ... what a troublemaker.
LOL. | |
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| Lawrence,
Thanks, and for the record in no way was my post aimed specifically at you or anyone else for that matter. Just a question to the topic at hand.
Zach, I think you nailed it as it is now status quo. I'm sure there are some MWC people who would consider themselves a "pro" as well as some guides.
I've always considered the financial part of being a professional, but have discounted that idea and it has been debated on many website what a pro is. But I'm finding more and more the people I consider "professionals" are the people I hold in high regard, they are the people who are knowledgeable in the subject of walleyes and to be a touring pro would be some whose knowledgeable in tournament walleye fishing. But at the same time I've met some very good quality guides over the years who put a prioity on guiding vs tournaments that I would hold in high regard, are they the best fishermen in the walleye world? Maybe, probably not. But they are the people that contribute to the sport in a positive manner. They are the ones actively seeking the future generations of walleye fishing. Those are the people I consider "professionals". So to me a Walleye pro is not the guy with a lot of money, not the guy with a bunch of patches on his shirt, not the guy they has the "great prostaff deal". It's the people that make a positive impact in the world of walleye fishing whether it be tournaments or just a day on the water. I've been called a cynic in the past, but to me it seems harder and harder to find these walleye pros. Am I walleye Pro? Absolutely not, but maybe, just maybe, some day I will. | |
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Location: Berlin | Good lord, my head is spinning. The day I start worrying about if I am a pro or not is the day I give up tournament fishing.
With the way this discussion has gone in the past I am really surprised it was brought up again. My answer to the quesion, it has no answer nor will it ever have an answer. This discussion is not good for the future of fishing. How is this going to get new blood involved in fishing? Some 12 year old kid gets on here because he has an interest in fishing tournaments when he is older......WELL NOT ANY MORE!
I will NEVER call myself a professional. I don't feel it is a self-appointed title. It is a title given to you. Hopefully by someone whom you respect. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The argument could, and should include the fisherman of the FLW walleye league as well. WHY? well, they have a 4 tournament circuit. They have a pro/am format. If we are to consider the other 3 circuits as pro because of this criteria, then the league fisherman should be in this group as well. After all, IN The other 3 circuits, the fisherman who patronize these circuits, could of, and in the future will probably, come from the league. Its a fine place to "Cut Teeth" if you will. Most of the guys who fish the league have moved to the pro/am's from the team circuits. We are getting closer and closer to developing a "Pecking order" in the walleye world. Bass and the FLW Bass do this already. Not comparing US to THEM but it is a system that works. I would like to see a baseball style rank. A to AA to AAA to majors and that would be the AL and NL. Of course the FLW would be the AL and the NL would be the PWT as that is often referred to as the senior circuit. Both leagues could have a super circuit if they choose. A finishing point. Or the elite could be the majors, but you get my drift. We could then decipher the word PRO. You have the right to call your self a pro if you patronize the complete schedule set forth by any one of these levels. Not just one here and there. If you only fished one here and one there, you would be fishing SOME pro tourneys but not a actual "Card Carrying" PRO.
Edited by stacker 3/9/2006 5:30 PM
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| Lena,
That was very well said. | |
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| AMEN Rich!!! bout time someone said it!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| What about the other side of being a pro? Not by a title but by your actions? Good and bad. I think that the vast majority of touring pros do a good job of conducting themselves on and off the water and didn't matter if they were in a tournement or not. But like all groups there are bad examples. These are the guys that want all of the good things that come from being a pro but when they set a bad example they don't want to admit to it or answer to the critisism. I have seen some pros act like complete jerks on the water and off of it. There actions seem to undo alot of the good work done by other touring fishermen but these same guys don't take responsibilty for it. I believe if you want the spot light and all the benifits that go with it you better be willing to own up to your actions when you set a bad example.
Having said that I think that the other pros who see these actions and don't say any thing are only hurting themselves and the sport. I am not just talking about the bigger issues but the small ones as well. For example, such things as tailpiping during a tournement and during prefishing doesn't show who the best fisherman is just who has the best spoting scope.
Like I said before there are alot of good pros who are doing it right but the one that aren't are the ones that you remember. | |
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | The way I look at it is, once you cash a check,, you should be considered a pro. Reason being, any other sport that you do win money, or get paid, you are considered a professional. If you get compensated or win, trophies or plaques, you are considered an amateur.
Stacker, I agree if you fish the FLW league, you should be considered a pro. I look at it as baseball, you have single A, Double A, and Triple A, then the majors. The FLW league, to me, is Triple A. The smaller circuits, like the MWS, WWA and so on, double A, and the bar tourneys, single A. Don't take that the wrong way, there are very good sticks that fish all 3. It just comes down to the money issue, and what you can afford. Once you get to the PWT or the FLW tour, you should be considered in the Majors.
Guest, it is unfortunate that the ones that act up and are total jerks do get alot of press, and the general public looks down on the tournament fisherman. You have that in other sports, as well. In the NFL you have Terrell Owens, basketball, you have Ron Artest, the list could go on and on. I will say, before I got in this business, I thought all tournament fisherman were total jerks, that wouldn't give anybody the time of day. Well, I was 100% wrong. All the guys that fish the two big tours, that I have approached, emailed, or even contacted by phone have been more than helpfull, and more than willing to help. The jerks that I have come in contact with, were fishing the smaller circuits.
That's why, when I have read other posts that say the old timers just want to protect themselves, I have to laugh, because it is so wrong. They actually welcome the newer guys. Reason being, it will help elevate the sport, and if the newer guys are getting the money, the guys that have been around will make more money. | |
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| My experience have come from both the pwt and flw. Last year I was fishing a small tourny on Devils Lake and the flw pros were prefishing. They had no way of knowing that we had a tourny going on but the attitude that I got from a couple of these guys and gals was unbelievable. Also it has happened to me with the pwt guys. Like I said in my last post. THese guys are the ones that get remembered. I am not of sure of these peoples names from the flw but I know the names of the guys from the pwt. But at these same events I meet some other pros at the dock. They had come over to see how we did and we just started b/s and stood there and talked for an hour. They asked if I wanted to fish with them the next day. Said we could stay in there room with them. But I had to get back home and had a 3 hour drive. We had a great day of fishing with a lot of big fish and gave these guys all the info we had plus gps cord. I think one guy was in the top 10 and the other was in the top 20. Not sure if they fished our spot or not and it doesn't matter. I was just happy to help a couple of really nice guys. And in my book TRUE PROS. | |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | In the end I'm all for total growth in the sport and in tournaments. I just wish some would see the whole picture and not just what good for them now. The NPAA has done some good things for the sport, I just wish some people would not use it as a platform for there personal goals over the goals of the sport and what the NPAA was founded for. I hope that makes sense to you?
Gordy,(your words above)
The one thing I like about your posts...you have passion for what it is you do and think. That's an asset!
But YOUR philosophy about the direction of the NPAA and competitve fishing in general, is wrong. Using your "model", I, nor most anyone who has been connected to growing a sport to PGA/Nascar levels, can't see how ANY of the sports such as golf, Nascar, tennis, bowling, rodeo and so on would EVER reach the levels they have.
Baseball, baskeball and football at the highest levels as we know them went through these same growing pains. These same debates, led by competitor based organizations, evolved into major league sports as we know them today. The good, the bad and the ugly all played key roles in the end. In the end, the sports ARE limited to who can play at the highest levels based not only on talent but the avenue they took to get there. Competitve fishing today is where these sports were, in some cases, more than 50 years ago.
As far as your opinion or view of how the NPAA operates, well, that's your opinion. But I think you have developed that based on anything but reality and by NOT closely interacting within the organization.
Keep up the passion! All good, well intended, goal based debates need that.
My answer to the origin of this thread? Like in ALL careers, businesses, sports etc., a professional fisherman is one who makes his main living from all aspects of the sport...on and off the playing field.
As I have invited you in the past, feel free to call or stop by the north shore and "discuss" this anytime! (I won't post on this thread again...)
Steve Fellegy
NPAA #49
Edited by Steve Fellegy 3/10/2006 6:40 AM
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Location: Sheboygan,WI | Sorry but I can't see how you would consider the FLW league as a pro circuit but not the MWC. I believe it is not about what circuit you fish. What defines the word pro is someone who is making a living professionally fishing. Not just tournies but seminars, sport shows and sponsors. That in my opinion is a pro. Just because someone pays the entrys to a circuit surely doesn't make them a pro! | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | WalleyeFIRST - 3/9/2006 12:28 PM
I think it's very simple. A walleye pro (on a competitive angling level, I assume that's what we are talking about) is someone who fishes either the entire FLW Walleye Tour, the entire PWT Regional Division, or the entire PWT Super Pro Division. There's 4 tournaments in each of these circuits.
Russell, My reply was in response to WF's statement of who a pro is. Did I leave out the MWC? just wondering, what is wrong with the league? | |
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Location: Sheboygan,WI | stacker i just feel storngly that guys pay there entry into a circuit and magiacly they are a pro walleye fisherman. No matter what circuit you fish just fishing that circuit makes you no more of a pro than the guys who fish the mws or wwa. Making a living in the fishing industry makes you a pofessional. | |
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| I think the term is used very loose and that's fine. Whatever makes you happy! I think if you defined it by 'Walleye Tournament Pro" or "Pro Walleye Guide" or "Pro Walleye Fishing Promoter", then you'd have clear honest professions. I think it is fine to fish tournaments as a hobby and if you come out ahead a few grand a year to call yourself a semi pro. I for one will not be offended by someone not using exact terminology. It is specific thinking that creates so much political correctness that we have to have a disclaimer for everything that comes out of our mouth. I am a 70% Professional Sales Manager, 21% Semi Professional Fishing Guide, 4% Semi Professional Outdoor Writer, 4% Semi Professional Speaker and 1% Semi Professional Product Demonstrator. **Note: These calculations are subject to change at any time without notice. To ensure integrity there will be a fiscal quarterly public announcement on the percentages but not until reviewed by a comittee and notarized under the supervision of a legal attorney. | |
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| There were three "touring pros" that fished the MWS May 22 out of Green Bay.They had just finished fishing the FLW from Wed. May18-Sat. May 21. They finished 2nd,17th,and 64th in the FLW Tour, and 49th,52nd,and 56th in the MWS.These pro's are great sticks give them their due, i just want to make sure the weekend guys arent overlooked.Some just cant afford the time or money to commit to bigtime. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Thanks for the input, everyone. I just wanted to see what the public's perception might be, and for those who want to argue what a Pro is or isn't to get a bit of all sides of the matter. A Touring Pro is an angler who by fishing the proper number of events and finishing well enough might qualify for the Championship of the PWT or FLW. A Ranked Pro has to do same for at least a couple years plus a defined additional timeframe.
The FLW League is IMHO a stepping stone tour, designed to encourage more national participation.
Touring Pro is a great definition, by the way.
The term doesn't mean anything as far as 'talent' goes, that is indicated by where the Pro sits long term; if the Pro has been at it for a long time and is not getting it done, it's obvious that no one will compare that Pro with say, a top ten ranked Pro. Of course, there are GREAT sticks who don't fish the Pro Tours. There's quite a number of GREAT golfers and tennis players and snowboarders who don't compete in a National Circuit, too. It's a matter of ability to decide to fish a circuit both financially and taking the risk/playing the game, at which time accepting the mantle placed by the tournmanet organization under who's rules of the game one plays is 'defining' . I bet there's several basketball players out there as good as Jordan ever hoped to be who will never see the court in Milwaukee or any other city. | |
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Define the term 'Walleye Pro'