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| Well, it looks like the formula is working for the FLW. I was looking at the great pics put up by WalleyeFIRST of the Detroit tournament, and I noticed something. There were no Lunds, or Crestliners, in the final 10, and it appears, only 1 Mercury powered boat. There were the usual complement of Rangers, and there were one each of the newly sponsored PolarKraft and G3 boats. When was the last time there were no Lunds or Crestliners in the final cut at an FLW Tour Event?
Am I tying to start something here? Well, maybe. I have a Lund now, and I have a bias towards Mercury motors. As Brunswick now owns Lund, Crestliner, and Triton, is it time for Brunswick to start a new touring circuit? Now, you could say that they would be copying the FLW, but hey, that seems to be working, doesn't it? Seems to me, Brunswick(Merc, Lund, Crestliner, Triton) touring Pro's need there own series. You can argue that the PWT is that circuit, but I think that unless the PWT comes up with some bigger sponsor dollars, and bigger rewards, they are going to fall behind, and never catch up to the FLW. Bad news for Brunswick, as more touring pro's go to Ranger, PK, G#, and Rude, Yamahas.
If you were a touring pro, or contemplating becoming one, which boat/motor/circuit cobination would you choose?
Your thoughts? | |
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| Since I am from Wisconsin, and if I had a chance to fish the big leagues, I would be riding in a Tuffy or Yarcraft. Also I am very partial to Mercury's, so black would be hanging off the back.
Would lose the extra incentive money from the FLW, so would just have to finish in the top five all the time  | |
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Shep,
How many Trackers, lunds, and crestliners were in the tournament? Rangers, polarkrafts, and G3's outnumbered the other 3 manufacturers. I don't know by how much, but I would be willing to bet it was by alot. So the chances of the boats that are not part of the FLW are very slim.
If you were fishing with your lund and finished 2nd, Ross would have won more than you in contingency money, that is why you are not seeing alot of the other boats in it, which I'm sure you already figured out.
You also cannot showcase your sponsors on the final day, take a look at Skarlis's and ortiz's shirt, compared to the other days, Skarlis had about half of his sponsors on his shirt, and Ortiz had none, because the FLW doesn't allow anything other than their sponsors on the final day. Which I'm sure you already new.
Skarlis, and Ortiz can get away with that, but a guy like myself can't.
Do I blame the FLW, no. Sponsors are what pay the bills. If I was someone that wanted to fish the FLW, I would align myself with the right sponsors.
Do I think Brunswick should come up with their own tour? Why not partner up with the PWT?
As a pro just starting out, what would I do? Well I went from Lund to Tracker, and will always have a Merc on the back. I have also tried to align all my sponsors with that of the PWT
I have no ambition to fish the full year on the FLW, I have always wanted to fish the PWT.
I do think that the pro's are going to start having a harder time selling their Rangers, with the market getting so inundated with them.
We will have to see what happens.
This is fishing season, this would be a good debate in the off season. | |
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| I'm far from becoming a Pro. However, I've been a Tuffy owner for 15 yrs and would run a Tuffy and an Opti as I do now. Glass under my A$$ and black in back. | |
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| Shink,
I'm not casting any type of blame here. The addition of Polar Kraft and G3 is quite recent, so not much chance for the debate this winter. And who know the FLW Tour was going to fill up, in just a day? They I don't know how many they had sold out years previous, but it wasn't many.Now, there were I think 6 G3 boats, and maybe the same number of Polar Kraft boats, so I don't think they outnumbered the Lunds and the Crestliners in the field. Certainly Rangers did, as they have in the past. But I think it is just a bit wierd not seeing any Lunds or C'Liners in the top 10. Course, that may well have been different if Gofron, Martin, and some of the othes were in the field, too.
What I am saying is the FLW tour is all about money. Selling boats and motors, primarily, and sunglasses, suntan oil, butter, chainsaws, antacid, aspirin, WallMart, and the list goes on. It's all about money. And I do believe the formula is successful. If, I say again, IF, I was able to fish a full circuit, I would be hard pressed to not pick the FLW. And IF I did, I'd be in a Ranger, Polar Kraft, or maybe even a G3. And it would have a Rude on back. Can you get a G3 with a Rude? Just couldn't see myself with a Yammy. Sorry, I digress. You see, I truly blieve it is all about money. Do you think all the guys that switched from Merc's to Evinrude, and Yamaha, did it for anything else? Lot's of those guys sang the praises of Merc one year, and then the other the next? Nothing to due with the motor, everything to do with money!
Yes, I agree, perhaps Brunswick should partner up with the PWT. I believe they have to do something. I'd hate to see Martin, KK, Gray, Parsons, Fellegy, Gofron, Plautz, and the rest in other brands of boats and motors. Agian, it's about the MONEY.
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | I don't think you could get a G3 with a evinrude, since I believe Yamaha is a partner, or the builder of G3. I understand with what you are saying about going that route, because of the money.
Polar, and G3 got the same amount of contingency money, that is why I put them all in one group, what i was trying to say was , it was probably 10 to 1 with the sponsor boats compared to the non sponsored boats. So in essence, it is harder to see those boats in the final 10.
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame those guys for running those boats and fishing that circuit, nor do I blame guys for jumping ship. I was just saying I wouldn't do that. As i said earlier, I will always be with Mercury. I'm not saying that because I am sponsored by Mercury, I have had one my whole life, and think they are the best out there.
There is only one guy in that group that you mentioned that may end up jumping in the future. The rest of them are pretty much set. | |
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| I'd hate to have to run a motor other than Merc, too. My sis-in-law would disown me! But I do like my Merc's, and that is why I bring this up. I would like to see them continue to be the motor of choice, because they are, and have the best motors.
I just hope Brunswick isn't ignoring what is going on in the walleye touring tournament world, and will get more involved. I think the PWT would be a great platform to partner with. I also think they will need to go outside the fishing industry for big dollar sponsorship.
I just noticed that this year, Lowrance has displaced Garmin as an FLW Sponsor. I was wondering how Dean slipped that plug in!
Edited by Shep 4/12/2006 1:24 PM
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| What? Are you calling it a manufactures tournament? That's taboo.
As for the comment about Rangers getting tough to sell......double your money on that bet, Ranger boat company sells soon after. Makes one wonder how boat sales are doing for Lund and Crestliner. | |
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| Jayman, I've always called it a manufacturers tournament, which is exactly my point. It's all about the money.
"As for the comment about Rangers getting tough to sell......double your money on that bet, Ranger boat company sells soon after" Huh? I'm not sure what you mean? Soon after what?
Edited by Shep 4/12/2006 1:27 PM
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| There were about 12 Crestliners in the tournament and 25 Lunds, 6 PK and 7 G3 I think. A lot of Detroit Locals run Lund yet. | |
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| Shep, isn't wasn't meant as a disagreement. Just in past conversations "others" would get pissy if they were fishing a manufactures tournament.
As for the Ranger comment, inflated boat sales. Similar to Lund and Crestliner. The fall out from said manufactures tournament will be a flooded market at prices that are not sustainable. Something's gotta give. | |
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| Jayman, I see. You may be right, but so far, all those pro boats are selling. I think the midlevel market is suffering as a result. I'm puzzled as to why my boat is still not sold.
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| I am no touring pro, nor do I want to be. So, I can't answer your question.
However, I do follow the goings on, as I am a dealer.
Originally, the Pro circuits were simply high level fishing competitions. Today, the current intended role of the Pro Circuits is to sell more product, in the end.
A secondary purpose is and always was, to provide good information to the manufacturers for "R & D" on the products.
No question Pro circuits test the products, especially the boats, and valuable information is thereby gained.
However, beyond sales to the few folks wanting to fish Pro (at reduced or even zero product pricing) being sort of forced into a particular brand in order to get a chance at the incentive money, I don't see it happening as a driving force for sales.
(PS- I sell some of the "approved" product brands). | |
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| More to the market for big boats/high dollar boats...
Fact is, several of the big companies have nearly or totally neglected the average angler, of average means. In short they have no real boats in the range of what probably amounts to 70 percent of the walleye boat market. Right now they are working to the high end, higher dollar rigs, with a smattering of mid level rigs aimed at the anglers who want a high end boat, but it is not in their plans. Now there are a few companies that have awesome product lines, a wide spectrum of options in their lines for near about every range of angler. While things are still good now, if the business gets tighter, these are the companies that will still be selling rigs to anyone other than a tournament angler. The market value of the high end rigs now is so inflated, something truly has to give. I fear many anglers will be trapped in boats worth less than they owe, or stuck with this years boat, and last years boat. And unable to sell both without taking a bath financially. Tournament angling is still a small, albeit growing portion of the walleye boat market. There is still a huge number of older boats that are still in awesome condition and being run daily. Saturation point in the 19 to 21 foot end of the market? Not yet, but close. Face facts, the guys and gals with the 17 to 19 foot rigs, new and a few years used are the ones doing the lions share of the buying out there. Buying the stuff the tournament guys are promoting and many times get free. These anglers always were, still are and always will be the lifeblood of walleye angling. And their boatswill always be the biggest market share of rigs out there. The only paradox here is these are the people that tend to own their boats for 10 plus years. While they buy lot's of tackle and accesories, they don't get a new boat every year like some pro's do. While their boats are the majority of the population, they are older, and there is no real issue of market saturation, devaluization of their rigs. The Pro's on the other hand, get new boats every year or so, and have what appears to be a dwindling buyer base, thus the fastest growing sales segment is fast approaching the brick wall called market saturation. It would be funny to watch if so many jobs were not at stake in the mix of a collapse due to saturation point being overrun. | |
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| I do in some respects agree with on the fringes reply I disagree on one point. Think of this... The guys that can afford to buy the 1 or 2 year old fully rigged pro boat will be soon looking forward to doing it again in 2-5 years. this allows ME, the small tourney angler or weekend hobby angler to buy the 3rd hand pro boat (still fully rigged with 4-7 year old gear) at a greatly reduced price. The pros are finding it more difficult to unload the 20-21 ft boats they have, but it still is and still will be done at a huge rate every year. I personally think there will never be a "SATURATION POINT" met. Boats get older and cheaper, there are always wealthy wekend anglers that want to upgrade for the sake of upgrading which allows those older boats to be available to me, the blue collar hard worker that LOVES to fish. | |
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| But what about a new circuit promoting Brunswick products, or a contingency program for the PWT from Brunswick? As I said, the FLW formula appears to be working. What is Brunswick going to do to keep up. I've heard faint, and I mean faint, rumors of something happening, maybe expanding the Merc Nationals into a tour, or coming up with a new circuit owned and run by Brunswick. I've been told to watch for this in another year, or two. Anybody wish to weigh in on this?
Edited by Shep 4/17/2006 10:51 AM
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| Why would Brunswick do anything? They already sell over priced items. Why in the world would they feel a need to have a tour of there own? They already know many guys just like yourself will always over pay for the product now, so why do anything more? | |
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| ;uveyes - 4/17/2006 10:23 AM
I do in some respects agree with on the fringes reply I disagree on one point. Think of this... The guys that can afford to buy the 1 or 2 year old fully rigged pro boat will be soon looking forward to doing it again in 2-5 years. this allows ME, the small tourney angler or weekend hobby angler to buy the 3rd hand pro boat (still fully rigged with 4-7 year old gear) at a greatly reduced price. The pros are finding it more difficult to unload the 20-21 ft boats they have, but it still is and still will be done at a huge rate every year. I personally think there will never be a "SATURATION POINT" met. Boats get older and cheaper, there are always wealthy wekend anglers that want to upgrade for the sake of upgrading which allows those older boats to be available to me, the blue collar hard worker that LOVES to fish.
Good point! I glossed over that aspect. Sorry to the guys who are doing tournies and circuits out of 2nd and 3rd hand pro boats, I did not mean to neglect that segment. However this segment of anglers sort of cements the big boat pros to the weekend/average angler and will totally fit into neither scenario I originally listed. However, I still suggest my point is very valid in that there are only so many guys out there that will buy a new 19 to 21 foot boat. And only so many guys who will buy that same boat used. Even 3rd hand used. This segment of the boat buying public is very finite in size and that size tends to shrink when the economy tanks. It has happened two or three times in my experience. As soon as we hit a rough spot i the economy boat sales, like all other luxury goods, drop. The first segment of the boat market to feel the heat is large boats. The first segment in our boating world to feel the heat is top end walleye rigs.
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| thanks for nothing, nothing. You add exactly nothing to this thread. You don't know how much I paid for my motor's or boat, so how can you say guys like me overpay. You don't like Brunswick or Merc, that is fine with me. But why insult me, or guys like me? | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Nothing -
Value is more than just price. The 150 Optimax I have is a GREAT motor. It starts EVERY time. It performs very well EVERY time out. I have 100% confidence that I will get back from where ever I go. My Opti also gets better than 3 mpg on average (a real benefit over many motors with gas prices again approaching $3 per gallon). Plus, the motor was made by my friends and neighbors, so I am keeping some jobs in my community. How do you put a price on that?
Buy whatever motor you want. Its your money. I'll buy what I want with mine. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Originally, that is exactly what the MWC was; the Manufacturers Walleye Council. It was designed to provide a stage for the anglers, and a showplace for the comoany products for each member. The PWT and FLW are exactly the same, both promoting the member/sponsor products. FLW is obviously Ranger/sponsor oriented, and PWT The In Fish product and sponsor products. Brunswick could and actually does run an owners tournament, Walleye Weekend. It wouldn't be too far a stretch to run a circuit, but the same restraints that the others have would somewhat shackle them to a set of sponsors in the industry. Non endemics like Wal MArt and Citgo could be part of the key to big payouts and bigger coverage.
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| That's what I've been trying to draw out, Steve.
As I noted, the formula seems to be working for the FLW. And the biggest reason for that is big dollar sponsorship of that circuit by non-industry related corproations, like Wall-Mart, Johnson&Johnson, Citgo, Land-O Lakes, etc. It's this money, coupled with Genmar product promotion and contingency that creates the successful model. Will, or should, Brunswick follow suit. If not, how long will those left running Brunswick products continue to watch the biggest paydays go to Genmar, Evinrude, and Yamaha owners.
I think it has to happen. Will Jim Coon be there to take care of the logistics? | |
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| There you have it! Just like I said, You have 220 "pro" walleye fishermen, who cares what they run? They are a very small portion of what any of these motor companies sell. As long as there are guys willing to buy the products they will make them. The motor compaines could careless who runs thier products as long as they keep and or grow thier market share. So as long as Brunswick sells enough boats, motors, pool tables and all the other goodies they could careless about tournament sales.
Sure they have there sponsor dollars in the PWT and some in the MWC. Why on earth would they need to add more? They have 65% of the markets of those two tours, so what good would it do them to have a tour of there own? They don't need to cut there own throat.
You guys can say what you want about any motor on the market, the big 3 as they sit now. Black would be 4th on my list based on all the bad history of the ones I have owned. I ran 7 of them and will NEVER give them another penny! Since, I have had ZERO problems with the other motors! I will keep running any motor BUT black! Yes it is my money, and I for one will NEVER run a product just because it's made by my house or my friend makes it. I want a motor that runs ALL the time. By the way EVERY 150 runs and runs, it's the BIG blocks that puke so I want one that WILL run and run! | |
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| I think lot's of folks would disagree that the boat builders and motor companies could care less who runs there stuff. If they did, then there would be no advertising at all, and magazines, radio and TV shows, tournaments, and internet websites would cease to exist. These aren't paid for by subscription!
So, I take it you don't like Merc, huh, nothing? Sorry if you had some problems, but I wasn't asking your opinion on that. Let's keep this on the topic, not on your personal feelings about Merc.
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| hat is the topic, as you posted it. "Why does'nt Merc/Brunswick have more tour incentive towards walleye anglers"
Simple- because they don't have to! You are crazy if you think really think they care who is running the product. As long as there are guys willing to buy it, run it and help sell it they don't care who they are. Sure they would all love to have the top guys, but if they don't they can give 20 other guys the standard 35 percent off. Look around, there are hundreds of want-a be Pro's willing to work shows and give (free) time for these compaines. So why would Merc or any other company give product when the could sell it (for a profit) and let the masses promote for peanuts?
The FLW is cleaning house with this very concept. They have the masses buying boats (Rangers) at a small discount, all the while these guys are promoting the product. Some of these same guys are at every boat show, giving (free) time. If you were to figure out what your time is worth, they just gave back every cent of the discount they received. Now you tell me where the Compaines stand? They know there are 1000's of guys willing to give them all the free time they could ever want. Just remember there are fishermen and there are Fishermen/ Salesmen or promoters.
So I really did answer your orginal question, if you buy they will build it! As long as people keep buy the boats and the motors these compaines won't have to be to agressive about marketing the walleye tour guys. Yes the top few and select guys are getting air and print time from a (Merc) but Merc is paying for that with product. | |
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| You contradict yourself, nothing.
"The FLW is cleaning house with this very concept. They have the masses buying boats (Rangers) at a small discount, all the while these guys are promoting the product." This was my original post, that this formula seems to be working for the FLW. Don't forget this tour was originally called the RCL, for Ranger, Crestliner, Lund, all Genmar products at the time, and originally had Merc as the motor sponsor. When things changed in 2004, and they added the boat and motor contigency to qualifying events, lot's of guys changed over to Evinrude, Yamaha. I am pretty sure, that was the FLW's intent!
But you also say that Merc/Brunswick has nothing to gain by doing what seems to be working for Genmar/Evinrude/Yamaha.
So, which is it?
I understand you have a strong dislike for Merc. That is not relavent here.
Edited by Shep 4/20/2006 11:04 AM
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| Maybe you should Re-read the posts? I also said they don't need to cut thier own throats when they already own 65% of the 2 Tours they support. This has nothing to with my dislike of Mrec outboards. It has to do with common sense. WHY on earth would they want to have to pay out cash money for products they have already sold? They own the market share in the industry now, why would they cut profits to please tournament anglers?
Just because YOU love Merc's does'nt mean they are going to jump into drastic measures to please a select few. On the other hand, Ranger is selling VERY expensive products to the public. They have all there eggs in this basket and have found that mass marketing is what it has taken to get thier market share. So if you want to buy that Merc Verdo at say 24K for a 225 then by all means open a tour. Fact is they know how they have made money, and will contine to make money VS giving it away. On the other hand compaines like Evinrude are forced to get as much product out as they can (for promotional reasons) more than anything. AND Ranger is not the only ones footing the bill on (extra) monies. The whole tour is sponsored by BIG money sponsors that all have to pay the rights. The owner of the boat products is about marketing which he feels leads to sales. Notice the products they are promoting?
If you think that many more guys are going to run Merc's because 225 pro tour anglers do so, well then it's not worth my time to explain the industry to you. Just how many 620 Rangers can they put out in a year? If they have 200 "pro" staffers how many more can they build? 350-450 total? If Merc has 250 "pro-staffers" how many hulls are there to hang more "tour" motors on? If they own 65% of 2 of the 3 "big" tours transoms, how would having another "owners" tour help them? These were the questions you asked, and I gave you an answer. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Lund/Mercury are currently major Sponsors of the PWT, so they have the committment made to pro Walleye Angling there. I don't think it's the idea of selling more tournament rigs to pros and exapnding the number of Pros to fill an additional circuit, it's a matter of holding one's own in the branding game. Allowing a competitor to establish a beach head might be thought out as a bad idea, so i actually wouldn't be too awful surprised to see more Brunswick Boat and Motor branding involvement in the future.
Bass boat companies like Ranger don't talk boats per year, they talk about boats per day. In the teens is a nice number. | |
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| It's not that I ddn't like the answer. It's that you never gave an answer, until now. Nowhere did I state that Merc/Brunswick should put up all the money, nor did I say that Ranger, Evinrude/Yamah put up all the money for the FLW. Ranger doesn't have all their eggs in one basket. And as for how many boats can Ranger make? As many as they can sell, I guess, should they decide to expand their capacity further than they have. Ranger sells alot more Bass Boats than they do multi-species boats. Based on your logic, they don't need the walleye market, and are cutting their own throats supporting the FLW. And why should they even support the bass tourneys. Thery have their market share, so why spend the money?
But please, you seem to be an expert on the industry. Please, take your time, and explain it to us. If you think that what the pro's run have nothing to do with what sells to the general public, then your input to this topic is likely over. You ever hear of NASCAR. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday? How many more people buy Tide because of Darryl Waltrip? Or Budweiser because of Dale Jr, or.... well, it's called marketing. And it works. | |
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| You seem to have all the answers, so why ask the question? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Because we all search out answers, even those that do not necessarily agree with our personal perception. | |
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| Nothing, I asked the question, because I wanted to see what others thought about it? I'm not sure there is a correct answer to the question. You've made your point, and I'll look to see if others weigh in.
Edited by Shep 4/21/2006 7:34 AM
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| Pros sell product and companies know this. Some companies have programs in place to actually track sales, others are just starting to put them in place. Sales drive everything in this business. Companies that pay contingency money have found out that it is a good way to advertise to their target market. Besides all the quarterly reporting I do, I now have companies tracking my direct sales. This is a good thing, as they are trying to justify the money they are putting up for me. In the end I will benefit because I do sell product and that is the name of the game. | |
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| Having fished in the RCL and FLW it was not without growing pains. A lot of use wondered what they were thinking sometimes with some decisions. But they have made corrections, listened to the anglers and made a major turn. I think last year was a big momentum swing with Al Linder doing the filming and the concept of promoting the anglers verses the products. Interest has increased, and sponsor are starting to pay attention with more and more boats being wrapped with sponsors every year. Im sure if Brunswick came to the table with contingency money and sponsorship it would even be bigger. I think there is bad blood, attitudes, and pride involved in some of the separation and blackballing of Mercury remember the Merc Trailer having to park down the street from the rest of the trailers.
It has changed from a good ole boys fishing tourney to big money and sponsorship. As it grows you will see more and more clean cut, hi visibility sponsorship. Look how fast Ranger dropped Iaconelli. It is all about image now and money. Not that it is a bad thing. I dont think the FLW would have survived without getting the major sponsors. As they get more more, the staff support for these tournaments continues to grow. It is like a small army traveling to put these tourneys on.
What does this have to do with the original post? I don't know. I guess it was and always will be a marketing tool. The main number one reason they do this is money. From the sponsors, FLW and the angler. (Well, at least the angler hopes for money!) | |
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