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| Oct. 4, 2006 Gerald O’Brien Chairman Wisconsin Natural Resources Board 101 South Webster St. Madison, WI 53703
Dear Chairman O’Brien:
I represent FLW Outdoors, the world’s largest tournament-fishing organization, and I am writing today to express grave concern about proposed changes to Wisconsin Administrative Code NR 20.40 relating to fishing-tournament regulations.
In 2007, FLW Outdoors will operate 247 tournaments in 13 circuits offering combined purses in excess of $43 million to the nation’s bass, walleye, redfish, kingfish and striped bass anglers. These tournaments annually contribute a combined $388 million to local economies, including $12.5 million in five Wisconsin counties (through 11 bass and walleye events in 2006).
Many of the changes that have recently been proposed for live-release fishing tournaments, including closing the season to such events between July 1 and Aug. 31, new taxes/fees for tournament organizers and participants, and a prolonged permitting process that will not be complete until Nov. 7 each year, will effectively prohibit FLW Outdoors from hosting events in the state.
Such a prohibition against tournaments will have serious economic implications for small businesses throughout the state. In fact, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources own study in conjunction with the Wisconsin Department of Tourism, the University of Wisconsin – Madison and the Chippewa Valley Convention and Visitors Bureau shows that a single high-profile tournament, like those regularly conducted by FLW Outdoors, can contribute $2.1 million to small businesses throughout the host community.
On behalf of our members throughout Wisconsin and thousands FLW Outdoors anglers who regularly visit Wisconsin, helping to fund DNR activities and facilities through license and tackle purchases, I urge you to reconsider the proposed changes to Wisconsin Administrative Code NR 20.40 until a Small Business Analysis can be completed and validated by an independent third party.
As you know, the Wisconsin DNR is already facing a budget crisis, as expenditures have exceeded revenues in each of the last five years. The proposed restrictions on tournament anglers will only exasperate the DNR’s fiscal problems by constricting license and tackle sales and discouraging future participation in the sport.
I assure you that we share an appreciation for Wisconsin’s fantastic natural resources, and we will continue to work diligently to both protect those resources and allow equal access to them by both tournament anglers and recreational anglers alike. In this spirit of cooperation, I would appreciate the opportunity to meet with you and further discuss the matter. Please contact me at 270.252.1615 or via e-mail at [email protected].
Sincerely,
Charlie Evans President and CEO FLW Outdoors
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| "In fact, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources own study in conjunction with the Wisconsin Department of Tourism, the University of Wisconsin – Madison and the Chippewa Valley Convention and Visitors Bureau shows that a single high-profile tournament, like those regularly conducted by FLW Outdoors, can contribute $2.1 million to small businesses throughout the host community."
WOW.... That sure sounds like a lot of money if it is true, but I for one find it hard to believe that any 3 day tournament could have that much of an effect on any local economy unless everyone in the tournament stops at the local Boat dealer and buys a new rig at every tournament.
Help me with the math on this one, lets say 300 guys fish the tournament for 3 days each, that's $7000 per person spent on the Tournament not counting the expense of the tournament officials and their staff and rigs. Sounds like a business I want to get into. Putting on Tournaments for a living.
I support the WI DNR and it's efforts to limit the number, location and dates of Tournaments.
Tyee, do you fish tournaments, I don't see you posting and fishing reports anymore? | |
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| I too would not take any numbers that come out of Madison. Sounds to me like someone in Madison was getting paid to do a survey. I deal with the Commerce Department on a regular basis and I would not trust any number they produce in any way shape or form. Anything they do is mearly a WAG. | |
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| I won't get into my numbers or a political side to this but a major tournament in my area doe's make a great impact on our bussiness.there numbers may be off but we do see an increase in the amount of people comming thru our doors during the pre-fishing and the tounnament times. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'These tournaments annually contribute a combined $388 million to local economies, including $12.5 million in five Wisconsin counties (through 11 bass and walleye events in 2006).' | |
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| And I think that they should continue. | |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | Just ask any bait shop or gas station how much their business is affected by a big tournament. Walleye fishing on the Mississippi can generate huge money for bait shops. I've had a hard time finding Willow Cats during Walleye tournaments that are 100 miles away.
I've seen guys buy 100 dozen at a time, that's $700 to $800 right there. I've seen guys walk out of a bait shop with 50 crankbaits. Chalk up another $250. These anglers do spend money, and lots of it.
If these people pre-fish for a week think of the gas they buy. Think of how much they spend on hotel rooms. If they find a decent room for $60.00 per night, they're spending over $400 on lodging. They gotta eat, breakfast lunch and dinner.
If you are fishing new water, you may need to buy a whole lot of local equipment. Try going to Green Bay during June without planer boards or harnesses. You can drop a lot of money real fast. | |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Remember, measured economic activity in dollars takes into account "circulation" of money... Restaurant patron leaves a tip... waitress buys groceries... Grocer pays wages to stock boy who buys a McDonalds lunch, etc... One dollar brought into a community generates more than $1 in economic activity...
But, no matter how you want to look at it... I spend thousands of dollars on four or five FLW events... I drive out of Illinois with several hundred dollar bills in my pocket and when I drive home they are not there... I leave them in Wisconsin. | |
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| Is there an economic impact? MOST DEFFINATELY! although the total numbers are arguable either way. That is not the point! The point is that the DNR has put their foot down and is going to regulate tournamnets like it or not. To what extent is shown in the FLW response that they are VERY concerned and that their tournaments in WI will most likely disapear if this regulation goes through. If this is your livelihood I urge you to defend your position at the hearings later this month. These hearings are not like the spring hearings!
I have posted all the links you need on the tournament regulation thread to help you better understand what is going on. It sure would be nice to see the NPAA, Cabelas, MWC, WWA etc........Jim Coon where are you? respond or post here so your supporters can defend your thoughts at these hearings! I realize many of the tourney guys don't post on message boards for fear of attack I guess but you need to drum up support and quick! The WWF and the WAL stand firm and have a lot of political clout!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Just remember guys, its not all about the FLW not playing here. It will be the MWC, the PWT, and the local circuits as well. every bar tournament, bass tournament, Muskie tournament, this is not prejudice against the flw or walleyes. This will include all species. If this goes through, it will eliminate walleye tournaments as we know them today. Why would this happen? Are they looking to protect the resources? Someone better get a handle on this.
Tyee, what is the e-mail of the person in which we can rock there world concerning this?
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | What are the specific proposals that are of concern? I for one would like to be educated enough to state my basis for opposition. Any help would be appreciated. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Tyee:
I just pulled these dates off of the DNR web site for the hearings. They are different from what you posted earlier. I'm assuming that these are the correct dates?
October 30, 2006 Holiday Inn, Fond du Lac
November 1, 2006 La Crosse
November 2, 2006, Fitchburg
November 8, 2006, Green Bay
November 9, 2006, Sturtevant
November 14, 2006, Spooner
November 15, Rhinelander
Here's aquote from the DNR:
It is not anticipated that the proposed rule will have an economic impact on small businesses. The Department’s Small Business Regulatory Coordinator may be contacted at [email protected] or by calling (608) 266-1959.
For what it's worth, I included this info in my November article for Midwest Outdoors.
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/fhp/fish/fishingtournaments/Pu...
Edited by Sunshine 10/10/2006 12:41 PM
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | This rule is a direct result of the DNR and Wisconsin State Bass Federations efforts of about 3 years ago. DNR wanted to regulate tournaments a little bit more and the WSBF wanted to be able to cull in bass tournaments, but neither could generate the support for their individual bills. They combined efforts and were able to push a bill through Madison that called for a two year study on culling, then based on data received, a bill such as this one. Apparently since the majority of bass died in a couple of warm water studies, they felt that all species of fish were at risk at that time of year.
If you want to be upset with someone, start with the Wisconsin State Bass Federation. Had they not been so foolish as to enter into an agreement where they had NO idea what the outcome was going to be, none of this would have happened.
Tyee has posted info on who to contact in past threads. DNR website has asked as email addy set up specifically for this:
[email protected]
I would encourage everyone to take a minute to send them a POLITE email request to reconsider the current format, specifically the "no live release events in July and August" and to clarify and the process by which tournament permit applications would be awarded.
There will almost certainly be some additional control granted to the DNR from this to requlate tournaments and that is not necessarily a bad thing. We just need to make sure that the rules are in place to protect the resource and not simply put in place as a tool for someone to limit our access to the water. | |
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| Here is the link to the WI DNR website which concerns the regulation developement.
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/fhp/fish/fishingtournaments/fi...
I have also attached a list of the Fishing Tournament Advisory Committee/WDNR Fishing Tournament Working Group. Please note that Kendall Kamke is on the Working Group, as well as Sue Beyler. For those not familiar with Sue, she is out of the Souteast Region, and has been very helpful in Muskie Inc's efforts in that region of the state.
Any of these member's e-mail addresses are available here:
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/staffdir/SearchDNREmp.asp
I encourage all to attend a meeting in their area. Even you out of staters, like Greg, should try to attend. We need our voices heard! Everyone who fishes/organizes/benefits form tournaments will be affected. Make your opinions now, cause your crying later will fall on deaf ears.
I see Bass is well represented on this committee, and Steve Poll appears to be the lone voice for Walleye.
Thanks, Tyee, for helping to keep this topic current.
See you at the regional meeting!
Edited by Shep 10/10/2006 1:29 PM
Attachments
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 advisory_workgrp.pdf (10KB - 191 downloads)
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| Dennis thanks yes the dates have changed. Previously you asked about my thoughts on other rules. Here's one that is in there that I think the Musky guys would be concerned about or maybe not?
(k) “Possess” for the purposes of this section means to own, control, restrain, transport or keep. Once
a fish is possessed, it shall be counted towards the anglers daily bag limit pursuant to s. NR 20.05(7). Any of
the following conditions constitute possession:
1. Holding a fish out of the water longer than necessary to remove hooks and measure the fish for
length, weight or both.
2. Placing a fish into a live well except to revive a fish or to avoid imminent boating danger.
3. Holding a fish at the side of a stationary boat for longer than necessary to register and revive the
fish.
4. Resuming fishing by any angler in the boat prior to the release of the fish.
Number 3 seems to me that it could be a long day in the boat for a Musky angler if he gets his fish early in the day and has to stop fishing??
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| It's about time the DNR stepped in to regulate tournament fishing. There are just too many tournaments and the mortality rate is simply way too high, especially in warm weather. I wonder what happens to all the big, dead walleyes that we see on the news after a tournament on Green Bay in August?? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Probaly the same thing that happens to the big, dead walleyes that anglers catch there every day. | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I would guess they meet the steel and fryer.......in that order.
If the DNR is so gun-ho about regulating things they should start with the people who double dip on a daily basis on Winnebago during the summer and the Wolf River rafts during the spring. Trust me, they do far more damage to the walleye population than any tournement ever has.
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Jerry, I couldn't aree more. I just sent an email to the DNR, ( don't know if it will do any good), I included that in my letter. It irked me when I saw the quote from the DNR, that this bill won't effect the small business owner. | |
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | I read this and then re-read it....
This is "possession";...
"4. Resuming fishing by any angler in the boat prior to the release of the fish. "
What "you" do affects what my legal status now is.... I don't think so... And, what about this... 4 rods out.... no fish in the livewell... I reel in a fish on rod "A", while rods "B", "C", and "D" remain in the water... Has my partner resumed fishing when he stops holding the net... what if he didn't net... when has he resumed fishing... Have I ever stopped fishing...
What, did Bill Clinton write that definition of fishing, so that "is" depends on what "is" "is"... | |
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| Jerry, don't be ignorant by pointing the finger at the rafts on the wolf river...they already have a bad name from the decades ago. Your simply categorizing a group of people you grew up no where near. Besides there is so much good that goes on compared to how it used to be. Its a great thing so don't knock it!!!!!!
As far as double dipping goes it still happens and will always be a problem when you have a great fishery! | |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | River guy,
In no way am I categorizing anyone. I am pointing a finger at a habit that has affected the fish population for many years. In my finger pointing I did not name names or mean to say that everyone who fishes on a raft on the Wolf in the spring does this. But we also know it is a regular practice, as it is also a regular practice for people to double dip on Winnebago when the fish start to relate to reefs. I've watched it more than once and I've reported it every time I've witnessed it.
Tyee.....I have a question for you regarding these meetings and the suggested change in regulations. In every change there has to be someone or a group who sponsors or drives the need for a change. Who is responsible for the desired change in this instance? Is this simply the result of the DNR becoming more involved in tournament fishing because of the culling requests by the FLW?
Edited by jerry 10/10/2006 8:44 PM
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I'm trying to gather as many small businesses in the LaCrosse area as I can to attend and offer their point of view. They can express themselves for or against tournaments. I have yet to find one that's against them though.
I encourage anyone to do the same. The anglers aren't going to change the State's mind. The businesses and communities will have to be the ones to do it. Let your chamber of commerce know what's going on. I'm sure they will have plenty of people who'd like to voice their oppinions. | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | guest... this rule will make things WORSE, not better. No live release tournaments in July and August and no limit on the number of tournaments these bodies of water can hold. That means we will still have (potentially) just as many events on Winnebago and GB, just that we will have to keep and eat the fish like everyone else does during those months.
Personally, I would rather tournaments remained C&R, but did a better job at determining which fish are truly releaseable. Most people don't care when fish are eaten, but seeing them wasted gets under a lot of people's skin - mine included. | |
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| Jerry, the changes taking place are a direct result of a failed culling bill presented through the tourism department that the WSBF lobiests tried to get through after its failure it opened the door for bill AB623. As 623 was most likely inevitably going to pass the WBSF (and other supporters) ramrodded it for a bass culling pilot program.
In esence what we have now is the result of a uncompromising, unagreeable tournamnet advisory board that was appointed of many interested parties, including boat manufacturers, DNR, people from various groups and others.
The DNR has drafted this and will be holding public meetings as required. Currently they have NO control over tournamnets, I repeat NO control, all that is required is that you get a permit, they don't even have the control on who, when or where these events can take place. This first go around is defining some laws for anyone that wants a tournament these are the new rules to be followed. More will follow regarding bag limits/culling etc. for that I'm sure.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Appleton | Bill NR20.40
I have concerns with this bill. Although I agree there needs to be some guidelines for tournament promoters. I feel no catch and release tournaments in the months of July and August is not acceptable. This means any fish that are currently released for others to catch will now be killed. This will result in more negative publicity and will hurt the resource. Tournament anglers are restricted in their limits while fishing tournaments to a smaller bag limit than when they are just fishing. They are also penalized for bringing in fish that are not deemed releasable. As I read the bill I have questions on what is the definition of Possess. As I stated while I feel we do need to improve the current system. At the same time I feel we need to get the input of tournament promoters, Tournament anglers, and the public. When the current board was formed to look at tournament and regulations, I volunteered to participate and was told they did not need any additional people. In my opinion if more people were involved this would have added input into the meetings. None of the people were paid for their time or expenses so there would have been no additional cost.
This bill will also have a negative economic impact on local business. Just to mention a few Motels, Gas Stations, Bait Shops, Marine Dealers, Supper Clubs, and Grocery Stores. In many cases anglers families travel with the anglers resulting in shopping and entertainment dollars spent by these families while the anglers are fishing. This will also effect the organizations that assist the tournament promoters. No tournaments will result in a loss of income for these organizations. In my case this will affect Walleyes for Tomorrow, Oshkosh High School, and Marinette High School. In summary this bill will impact more than just the tournament promoters and the anglers.
NOTICE IS HEREBY FURTHER GIVEN that pursuant to s. 227.114, Stats., it is not anticipated that the proposed rule will have an economic impact on small businesses. The Department’s Small Business Regulatory Coordinator may be contacted at [email protected] or by calling (608) 266-1959.
Please call or e-mail or both your comments.
This is just a few concerns of my concerns. I hope all concerned people will attend the meetings and voice their opinions. After the bill is passed it will be too late.
If anyone wants to contact me e-mail [email protected] or call 920-731-3474
LET’S ALL STAND UP AND BE HEARD BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!
Here are the meeting dates and locations
October 30, 2006 Holiday Inn, 624 W. Rolling Meadows Drive (US 151 & 41), Fond du Lac
Monday at 7:00 p.m.
November 1, 2006 Strzelczyk Great Hall, Cleary Center, UW-La Crosse, 615 East Avenue South,
Wednesday La Crosse at 7:00 p.m.
November 2, 2006 Fitchburg Community Center, 5510 Lacy Road, Fitchburg
Thursday at 7:00 p.m.
November 8, 2006 Auditorium, Bay Beach Wildlife Sanctuary Nature Center, 1660 East Shore Drive,
Wednesday Green Bay at 7:00 p.m.
November 9, 2006 Suite IV, DNR Service Center, 9531 Rayne Road, Sturtevant
Thursday at 7:00 p.m.
November 14, 2006 Spooner Agricultural Research Station, W6646 Highway 70, Spooner
Tuesday at 7:00 p.m.
November 15, 2006 Theater, Nicolet Technical College, County Highway G, Rhinelander
Wednesday at 7:00 p.m.
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Location: Appleton | I took this from another board. Let's do our part to respond to this bill.
Here is some more info and how to express your opinion.
Wisconsin Wants Your Comments On New Tournament Rules
Wisconsin’s is urging anglers to attend upcoming public hearings on proposed fishing tournament rule changes and submit written comments.
“Changes to fishing tournaments rules, and fishing tournaments in general, can be controversial,” says Mike Staggs, Wisconsin’s fisheries director. “There’s no one set of rules that will make everyone happy, but we’re committed to finding middle ground. It’s important for people to read the proposals and raise their concerns during the public hearings or in written comments.”
Fisheries staff will review public comments and finalize the proposals before returning to the state Natural Resources Board (NRB) to seek approval of the rules, likely in 2007, he says.
A 2004 law responded to public concerns raised about tournaments and instructed the DNR to update tournament fishing rules where there were significant, documented problems. Larger tournaments have been governed by a permit system since the mid-1990s, and the number of permitted events has increased from about 300 events a year to 400 since then. See the June 2006 Issue of Wisconsin Natural Resources for an article on fishing tournaments.
DNR staff developed proposed rule changes by working with an advisory group that included fishing clubs, lake associations, fishing tournament organizers and the Wisconsin Conservation Congress. The group focused on addressing documented problems with crowding at boat ramps and on some lakes during certain times of the year like holidays, and concerns over fish dying after being caught and released in tournaments. Studies have indicated that such “incidental mortality” doesn’t affect the fish population over all, but “no one likes to see the resource wasted,” Staggs says.
The original proposal was modified to address Natural Resources Board concerns about invasive species, incidental mortality, and recovering costs associated with managing the tournament permit program, he says.
Perhaps the most notable feature of the proposal is that tournament participants would have to immediately release fish in tournaments held in July and August instead of bringing them back to a weigh station, Staggs says. Water temperatures are the highest in those months, and there’s the greatest risk of increased mortality of fish caught in those events. In recent years, several highly publicized incidents occurred when fish died after being caught in live-release bass tournaments on the Mississippi River and walleye tournaments in Green Bay.
According to Patrick Schmalz, the DNR fish biologist who led the rule development, key provisions are:
- Tournaments would be required to get a permit if they had 20 or more boats or 100 or more individuals; if they awarded prizes totaling $10,000 or more; if they targeted trout on classified trout streams; or if they were live-release events with an off-site weigh-in.
- The fee for tournament permits must cover costs associated with administering the permit program, with the exception of tournaments in which all participants are youngsters or disabled people.
- Permit fees would vary depending on event size. People attending public hearings or submitting written comments on the rule changes will be asked which payment option they prefer: having event organizers pay the permit fee or having event organizers and participants pay. The Natural Resources Board struck from consideration a third option to use fishing license revenues to pay some of the cost.
- A permit application process would begin August 1 for tournaments the following year and extend through Sept. 30. Tournament applications for water bodies and time periods that exceed proposed limits would be subject to a drawing. Under current rules, permit applications are accepted up to one year prior to and no later than 30 days prior to a fishing tournament.
- DNR would have the authority to limit the number, size and frequency of tournaments held on a particular waterbody based on waterbody size to lessen the pressure on fish and reduce conflicts with other anglers and boaters. Current rules have no such limits.
- Anglers would be required to meet standards for handling fish to reduce stress on the fish, and more conditions could be added if warm water and other conditions warrant. These standards are intended to avoid wasting fish. Wisconsin studies thus far have shown tournaments don’t have a lasting impact on fish populations.
- Organizers could hold tournaments on the opening day of seasons, but not on major summer holidays. Under current rules tournaments are prohibited on the opening day of fishing seasons only.
- Organizers would need to take steps to prevent tournament organizers and participants from inadvertently spreading invasive aquatic species.
The hearings will be begin at 7 p.m. on the following dates and locations:
October 30, Fond du Lac – Holiday Inn, 624 W. Rolling Meadows Dr. (US 151 & 41).
November 1, La Crosse – Strzelczyk Great Hall, Cleary Center, UW-La Crosse, 615 East Ave., South.
November 2, Fitchburg – Fitchburg Community Center, 5510 Lacy Road.
November 8, Green Bay – Auditorium, Bay Beach Wildlife Sanctuary Nature Center, 1660 East Shore Dr.
November 9, Sturtevant – Suite IV, DNR Service Center, 9531 Rayne Road.
November 14, Spooner – Spooner Agricultural Research Station, W6646 Highway 70.
November 15, Rhinelander – Nicolet Technical College Theater, County Highway G.
A copy of the draft rules, hearing dates, and other materials concerning fishing tournaments can be found on the DNR Web site.
The proposed rule and fiscal estimate may be reviewed and comments electronically submitted at through the State of Wisconsin Administrative Rules Web site (exit DNR). Written comments on the proposed rule may be submitted until Nov. 17 via U.S. mail to Patrick J. Schmalz, Bureau of Fisheries Management and Habitat Protection, P.O. Box 7921, Madison, WI 53707. Written comments whether submitted electronically or by U.S. mail will have the same weight and effect as oral statements presented at the public hearings. | |
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| Mr. Sworral, in response to your answer to the other guest's question about the big dead walleyes. It's a very legitimate question. What really does happen to them? I have heard several differnent answers to that question, including landfill, fish fertilizer, mink farms, and food pantries. Which leads to another question. Is a 10 pound walleye from Greeen Bay fit to eat? I have been fishing the bay for 35 years and have kept only one walleye for mounting. Furthermore, I don't know of anyone who keeps walleyes from the bay to eat, although I'm sure some people do. We talk about protecting our resources and use terms like "selective harvest". If you saw an angler at a landing with 5, 8-10lb walleyes in his livewell, I'm sure we would all be very critical of that individual. However, if he's in a tournament, it"s OK? So, before I decide on bill NR20.40. What really does happen to these fish? | |
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Posts: 499
Location: Appleton | Guest In reply to your question. Where do the fish that do not suvived go after the tournmaent. In our case they are taken by the F.O.C.U.S. group. They do several fish meals for the needy throughout the year. They also donate the cleaned fish to several food pantries. These organizations are happy to have the added meals. Also there are people that do eat fish from the Bay. If someone decides to keep a fish from the Bay or wherever that is his right. As bill NR20.40 is written ALL fish caught in July and August will be KILLED. While I feel that we do need some regulations for tournament promoters, WHY KILL ALL THE FISH RATHER THAN RELEASING THOSE THAT ARE RELEASABLE! Just my thoughts
Thanks
Jim Coon | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The limit in most tournaments is reduced to one man's possession plus a fish or the like, so the impact is really minimal if all are harvested. Talk to a fisheries expert about the impact of any tournament, and you will find that an great deal of theconcern is not from fisheries managers about the actual biological impact as much as from the public.
I agree with Jim in principle, but the DNR I think may not be happy with the PR image of the fish released that die later and show up on the surface, so I guess I'd defer to the experts as to whether tournaments permitted during the hot period of the summer months should be harvest events.
Another good exercise in determining tournament impact is to ask your DNR rep where ever you are what the average daily creel is from that water on any given weekend, it may surprise you.
The fish from the PWT Championship are being cleaned and donated to an organization for rehabilitation of young folks who have lost direction in life, and those folks are delighted to get the fish.
Reality should rule the day here, not emotion. The biologists from the DNR know what the reality might be for managing any particular system for Walleyes, but they are also very aware of shared use and public opinion. Balancing management between reality and what the sum of the angling public wants is a tough task. Injecting Politics and Emotion just plain will get in the way of both at the end of the day.
As far as being critical of anyone with a limit of fish, I guess that's a personal issue. If the fish population becomes unbalanced due to overharvest, the DNR will react and perhaps reduce limit size and may even implement a slot, so I personally leave conservation and C&R to each and every angler out there. I think the average tournament angler kills no more fish than a serious weekend angler looking to put some fillets in the freezer over the course of a full year, and most are more conservation minded than the average fellow. Attacking EITHER for taking a legal limit is unwarranted, IMHO. If you think the large fish in a system need protection, lobby your CC folks in Wisconsin and introduce your ideas and justification for same at the next spring hearing. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Jim Wrote: As bill NR20.40 is written ALL fish caught in July and August will be KILLED. While I feel that we do need some regulations for tournament promoters, WHY KILL ALL THE FISH RATHER THAN RELEASING THOSE THAT ARE RELEASABLE!
Jim, I believe that the answer is political and not sustained by scientific research. Here is a quote from the DNR’s new fact sheet located at: http://dnr.wi.gov/org/water/fhp/fish/fishingtournaments/fishtournru...
Tournament Rules General Fact Sheet [PDF, 218KB)
Proposed changes focus on addressing problems with crowding at boat ramps and on some lakes during certain times of the year like holidays. They also address concerns over fish dying after being caught and released in tournaments. Studies have indicated that such incidental mortality doesn’t affect the fish population in the long run, but no one likes to see the resource wasted. To lessen the pressure on fish and reduce conflicts with other anglers and boaters, DNR could limit the number, size and frequency of tournaments held on a particular waterbody based on waterbody size. Current rules have no such limits. Tournament participants would have to immediately release fish in tournaments held in July and August instead of bringing them back to a weigh station. Water temperatures are the highest in those months, and there’s the greatest risk of increased mortality of fish caught in those events, as occurred in a few highly publicized incidents involving live-release bass tournaments on the Mississippi River and walleye tournaments in Green Bay.
Anglers would meet standards for handling fish to reduce stress on the fish, and more conditions could be added if warm water and other conditions warrant. These standards are intended to avoid wasting fish; Wisconsin studies thus far have shown tournaments don’t have a lasting impact on fish populations.
There are sentences in the above document that are concerning. Such as:
Studies have indicated that such incidental mortality doesn’t affect the fish population in the long run.
Wisconsin studies thus far have shown tournaments don’t have a lasting impact on fish populations.
Tournament participants would have to immediately release fish in tournaments held in July and August instead of bringing them back to a weigh station.
One could interpret this document as indicating that there is no scientific evidence that says tournaments are hurting the resource BUT we do harm in a PR sense. Although I agree that we need to do a better job and rectifying the dead fish problem the DNR says we do no damage to the resource. I thought that the DNR dealt with biological concerns and not Public relations? I also think that we are all interpreting the results incorrectly. After reading this it appears that you will not be able to have a tournament in July and August where you bring the fish back for a weigh-in (regardless of dead or alive). Tournament directors like yourself will need to develop a scenario where people release all fish at the boat and keep track of their total weight or length.
My guess is IF this passes, You will not have tournaments in July and August ….. Period There is no way that you can monitor the fish caught (digital pictures with date and time? Observers in boat?). And the weigh-ins would be totally anticlimactic.
In another scenario, the big time tournaments already have the resources and technology to abide by these rules. Anyone who watches BASS on TV sees the fish being caught and already know the approximate weight and results prior to the actual weigh-in. Big time TV can make this work but smaller tournaments like yourself are handcuffed. My guess is that you will have a tournament in May and June and then again in September and October. Or you’ll have 2 tournaments in May and June.
It may sound that I’m justifying the DNR suggestions. Nothing can be further from the truth. I think that quality tournaments like yours do a great job in dealing with the dead fish problem. What upsets me most is that tournament fishermen are being treated differently than the general public. How can a public entity like DNR say that we do no harm but give us different rules (concerning harvest) to work under than the general pubic? I smell a law suit for someone who has deep pockets.
As a side note, I have no problem with paying a fee to tournament fish. But I want that money to go directly to the environment and not to sustain a program that I do not believe is fair. Kind of a catch 22 isn’t it? They’re telling us that they are imposing rule changes that are unfair toward a small population and then they say you’re paying for it too. None of the states that border Wisconsin charge fees for fishing tournament permits. Tournament permit fees appear to be relatively rare ( A DNR Quote).
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| Consider these facts before you make any opinions one way or the other. Green Bay has 520 square miles of water. If you had 5 large tournaments a year with an average of 100 boats and they were held only during the warm water months, you would have at the MAX 2500 fish taken. This is if every boat caught a limit to weigh-in. We all know thats never been the case. Now I know some events are longer than 1 day, but if you look at the numbers of fish caught and weighed at every event ever held at Green Bay you would see that the numbers are low in total fish caught per angler. Plus the number of NON releaseable fish is low.
I do understand peoples concerns about such a great fishery, what I don't understand is how anyone could think that having a few events on such a large body of water will hurt it? Considering just how few events are held there, and the times of year they are held. Fish do die during tournaments, in every event. Most fish that die were pounded during long runs in rough water. BUT if taking 2500-3000 fish from Green Bay a year is bad, then the DNR should just shut them down. However they don't because Green Bay can easily handle this.
No one like to see big fish dead, however is this hurting such a huge system? I would bet not, but thats my opinion. There are millions of walleye in this system, and some true giants. Fishing pressure and tournaments in general will not hurt it. The giants on Green Bay are there to stay, as long as the forage base remains solid. I love the fishery and consider it one of the best the Midwest has to offer.
I live in MN and I'm lucky enough to be able to Mille Lacs, this body of water gets 100 times more pressure than Green Bay has ever gotten. Yet it remains a fantastic fishery. Yes they have a slot, but they also have anglers taking large fish from deep water. Yes they see DEAD fish during warm water months. These fish were caught and released (Not in slot) yet the fishery remains one of the very best in the Midwest. Millions of fish are caught yearly, yet dispite everyones opinions it remains strong.
Now for the topic at hand here: Tournaments will forever get a bad rap by a select few. In no way will a tour event ever truly hurt a fishery, they hold events on waters with large numbers of fish for a reason. Tournaments do hold great value for the local business establishments. They also send the word out about some of the great fishing on these bodies of water. Only after the events do the local establishments see just what a good bites does for them. It's then up to every angler to care for the system. The impact of a larger tournament far out weighs any negitive a few locals may feel about them. Remember these guys are fishing for something other than the meat, they are careful handling fish. It's true that at some point "we" take some fish to eat. Just remember that for the most part, guys are not stocking up coolers at Motels when we are there for a week. We don't have the time or resorces to care for a bunch of filets during events.
I see signs at events like the Bays De Noc area, telling us to go home. I can't understand how anyone would ever think like that??? If every angler that fished these events all took limits everyday for a week it would not hurt that system. Locals have every right to their opinions, just like the rest of us. However blame is a cop-out for larger issues. The fact is most of these people simply are taking issue with someone else catching fish (on their home waters). It's sad that in this day and age people would take issue with anothers fishing, if it's regular angling or tournament. The resources we have today are for the most part over mangaged to ensure a great future. This is fishing not catching, if everyone was catching all the time it would might be a issue. More regulations is not the answer, maybe more education to the people that use the systems is the answer? Fighting with each other about what is best for any system, is wrong also. I know some waters are over populated, is this all because of tournaments? NO, it's beacuse more people are using fishing as a release from their everyday lives. When things were cheaper to take long vacations further from home, people were more spread out. Today people are staying closer to home and enjoying the local areas more than ever.
We should all step in, and support a great past time. This is not about one group of anglers over another, it's about fishing and all it has to offer all that participate and how they choose to do so. We are over regulated in most every aspect of our lives, and we don't live that long! Lets group together for a change and keep "our" fishing something for everyone! | |
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Location: upper michigan | It just seams to me weather you are a recreational angler or a tournament angler, that your license fee gives you a right to catch and posses a daily limit of walleye. If you choose to release these walleye after reaching the dock weather for a weigh in or a few pictures that is your right. We have paid our fee's that alow us to do this buy purchasing our license any fee above and beyond that is a TAX. As long as the laws are followed I dont see how they can fairly penalize us for wanting to fish tournaments. All the tournament anglers in wisconsin need to stand up and be heard before they can unfairly TAX us for tournament fishing. | |
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| Thanks Steve, I think you hit the nail on the head! Personally, my fishing the wolf on weekends in the spring is now limited because of tournaments, I know many others that have done the same over the past few years. I now have to take vacation time to enjoy the waters in my backyard!
I'm not against tourneys and many of you know that, I am against a few things about them that I feel needs regulating, but I buy a license too and somethings concern me like (boats 20' up on shore on the river, or every 30 minutes I have to stop fishing because another wave from a tourney is going by at prime time.)
The "Tax" should be applied. When public perception gets to a controversial point as it has for many things someone needs to step in and police it for the good of all. The July Aug no tourney thing is a bit too far, (shouldn't it be April May on the river and June July on Bago???hehe).
Sponsors need to take a hard look at what is hapening here in WI as Other states are also looking at setting regualtions. Big money is being touted as an economic savior and that seems to be the ONLY card they are playing, I hope there is something up the sleeve because that it won't be enough.
Good Luck
Tyee
Happy hour before the meeting anyone? | |
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| I'm not a member here and not a tournament fisher unless you count ice fisherees so I don't really know too much about tournaments. I only fish weekdays because I like the solitude. No problem with tournaments either. One question I have is about culling. If the body of water that the tourney is on has a 6 fish limit then why can't the tourney set a 5 fish limit for the tourney? If this were the case you could cull because you would not be fishing with your limit in the livewell. Seems reasonable to me as does some kind of regulation. If this were the case then non tourney fishermen should not feel discriminated against. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Gadabout,
You're idea is very similar to what many tournaments do already. In fact some are even more discriminatory than state law requirements for other fishermen. Many tournaments that we do on Green Bay allow you to weigh four fish and have 5 in possession.
Some tournaments on other bodies if water will have you weigh 6 fish when the legal limit is ten in possession.
Good Questions, come visit us more often 
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | Here's a fresh perspective on some of this....
First, smaller circuits - They attract fishermen from a smaller area (generally)... Guys who would be fishing somewhere, maybe even the tournament water, that day/weekend, anyway. The big difference, these guys are now C&R ONLY. The point is that they would probably be somewhere harvesting fish that weekend. The tournament sort of organizes there "schedule", but not their activity.
Big Tour Circuits - They bring in 300 (tops) out of towners (a few are local) for 3-4 days. They are all C&R on tournament days and probably so because of superstition on practice days. Come on... 150 boats does not impact any water significantly.
So, the reality, not hype or percweption (incorrect, probably) is that these really don't have any impact other than timing for the locals...
Just a shared thought from someone who made this point to me... | |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Allow me to have a spin with the Russian Roulet revolver on this subject.
I honestly feel "Perceptions" by the non-tournament fishing public at large will play the biggest part of how these decisions regarding these rulings are decided. Tournaments (no matter what their helpful or destructive roles) concerning the future of our sport, are only enjoyed by a small fraction of the total fishermen using the resource. And when Joe blow gets the weekends off to relax and fish, or pays big money for a summer slip at some of the marinas used for tourneys, and finds the ramps or channels full of guys in floating rockets making his leisure time difficult, it leaves it's emotional mark.
Now compound his frustration, with these same guys who were cramping his style, holding up lots of big fish they caught on his waters, or worse yet having any of these fish seen floating a few days later after one of these tourneys. It may be a stretch, but all this equates and is seen often by Joe Blow as a terrible waste and the rich (who own these rockets) getting richer.
Then the final straw (which I'm happily not a part of) is the non-sharing of any info that would help and teach these same Joe Blows how to catch a few fish of their own. If these boards with 10,000 members and 100 regular posters don't reinforce this fact, I don't know what does. Only a very few of the Pro's benefiting from these events (except for maybe at the weigh-ins) actually share any helpful info, except through his or hers paid seminars.
And like Dennis, don't get me wrong on my true feelings about certain rules and provisions concerning this matter. Some are just simply wrong and do indeed discriminate. But I feel the tourney industry itself needs to make an effort, take a different approach, maybe change some rules and view the concerned public in a different way. Don't leave them out and treat them like the enemy. Help and educate them as to what's truly going on.
Edited by walleye express 10/25/2006 12:46 PM
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| Thanks for your input WE.
I took this from another site, now is the time to stand up for your opinion at the voting booth.
From FLW today:
FLW Outdoors sent this letter today to all FLW and TBF members in Wisconsin . Also it was sent to every host hotel, host marina, and Chamber of Commerce we have dealt with in Wisconsin over the years:
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We need your help! The time has come for you to take immediate action to defend your rights as a tournament angler in Wisconsin. As you probably know, the Wisconsin Natural Resources Board is considering proposed changes to Administrative Code NR 20.40 that will outright ban live-release fishing tournaments between July 1 and Aug. 31 and effectively prohibit organizations like FLW Outdoors and The Bass Federation from hosting events in the state due to excessive permitting requirements and excessive fees. As a tournament angler you have been singled out to pay additional fees that recreational anglers will be exempt from paying.
If adopted, the proposed changes to Administrative Code NR 20.40 will have serious economic implications for small businesses throughout the state. In fact, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources’ own study in conjunction with the Wisconsin Department of Tourism, the University of Wisconsin – Madison and the Chippewa Valley Convention and Visitors Bureau shows that a single tournament can contribute $2.1 million to small businesses. In its proposal to the board, however, the DNR states that the proposed changes will have no effect on small businesses. This simply is not true.
It’s time for small business owners and tournament anglers throughout Wisconsin to stand united against the proposed changes to Administrative Code NR 20.40. Please get together with your fishing friends and attend as many of the following public hearings as possible to let your voices be heard: · October 30, Fond du Lac – 7 p.m., Holiday Inn, 624 W. Rolling Meadows Drive (US 151 & 41). · November 1, La Crosse – 7 p.m., Strzelczyk Great Hall, Cleary Center, UW-La Crosse, 615 East Avenue South. · November 2, Fitchburg – 7 p.m., Fitchburg Community Center, 5510 Lacy Road. · November 8, Green Bay – 7 p.m., Auditorium, Bay Beach Wildlife Sanctuary Nature Center, 1660 East Shore Dr. · November 9, Sturtevant – 7 p.m., Suite IV, DNR Service Center, 9531 Rayne Road. · November 14, Spooner – 7 p.m., Spooner Agricultural Research Station, W6646 Highway 70. · November 15, Rhinelander – 7 p.m., Theater, Nicolet Technical College, County Highway G. Unless we show up in force at these hearings, the proposed changes will be implemented and tournament anglers and small business owners throughout Wisconsin will pay the price.
In addition to attending the hearings, please e-mail Wisconsin Natural Resources Board Chairman Gerald O’Brien at [email protected] and Wisconsin DNR Treaty Fisheries Coordinator Patrick J. Schmalz at [email protected] to express your concerns. Tell them your opinion, ask how the proposed changes will benefit Wisconsin fisheries, anglers and small businesses, and offer alternative solutions to whatever perceived problem they hope to address. The simple truth is that there is no biological or economic justification for the proposed changes.
To review the proposed changes in their entirety, visit www.wisconsinbass.com/DNR_tourn_changes.pdf.
Your rights are in jeopardy. Please act today.
Sincerely,
Charlie Evans President and CEO, FLW Outdoors
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| Sorry Charlie, but you forgot about the Socialogical issue!!!!!!!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Posts: 794
Location: Elgin, Illinois | "the Socialogical issue".... what the fish don't like us?
Ask Dave Nelson and the whole community of Winneconne if they have a "sociological" objection to the tournaments I fish in their area. Every time I am there I spend something like $600-700 in an extended weekend...
In addition, because of the attractive nature of the area, experienced because my tournaments brought me there years ago, I also visit for fun with my family and with friends. So, you don't like the jobs created and supported by the hotels, motels, bait and tackle shops, gas stations and restaurants, the real estate taxes paid by those businesses that support local schools. the sales taxes that help support fire and police services and other municipal services. All of those things have a big impact, positively, on the quality of life of the whole community that hosts a large tournament. As I see it, the people who are crying for the death of the golden goose are a small minority of local fisherman who complain that they are inconvenienced by a crowded boat ramp, a large number of boats fishing in their "private" (in reality public body of water)... Some of those ramps are paid for by license fees... license fees paid for by me...
I do not ask for anything more than I am entitled to as a paying user of the resource and as a paying commercial guest of the community. I pay my parking/launch fee.. so I am entitled to launch and park... I do not deny any one "in line" the right to launch... I have no desire to be "special", only equal. But, as a "community" don't hand me a brochure at the gate of the city telling me "welcome"... "here spend your money and patronize our local businesses"... and in the next breath tell me under your breath "get out of town flatlander".
Tourism is a big business in Wisconsin. Hostility to tournament fishermen will spill over. Oh and tell the guys in the factories at Tuffy, Yar Craft, Mercury, Bombardier, Dave's Baits, etc. (and more and more) that we aren't important to them... Be sure and get them to sign off on the message that we aren't wanted in Wisconsin... Ask Brunswick if they want to sign on to telling the walleye tournament folks that they aren't welcome or wanted in Wisconsin. Where are those motors and Lunds built? Whose families and neighborhoods benefit from those boat sales? The world and the economy of Wisconsin is too interdependent to start a "pi$$ing match" and expect for there to be a winner.
You cannot separate the good economic benefits to the State of Wisconsin from the "sociological" impact you say exists at the ramp and on the water... If you do not tolerate my presence in the form in which I enjoy it you will not enjoy the fruits of my presence in any form now enjoyed by you. | |
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Location: Neenah, WI | Very well said Mr. Meyer. It's comments like yours that should be distributed at these meetings. | |
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| Tournament Rule Hearings & Information PJ Schmalz 10-26-2006
Good Morning:
As you are aware, the public hearings for draft fishing tournament rules begin Monday, October 30. The public comment period, which includes written comments, ends November 17. I encourage you all to attend a hearing, submit comments, or both.
There have been several questions and concerns raised on this message board and in other venues. I have attempted to address most of those concerns by creating documents available at the web site linked here. There are some things that need slight modification (e.g. bad links) and there are other items that still need to be placed on the site, so check back frequently.
DNR Fishing Tournament Regulations
With respect to the public hearing process. If you are interested in appearing you simply need to show up and complete an appearance slip (which will be available at the hearing site) and give it to the hearing examiner. The hearing examiner will receive all the slips and call people to appear based on those slips. A rule summary presentation will be given and a short question/answer period will precede the official public hearing phase. Once the hearing portion begins people will be allowed to make their comments (2-3 minutes, maybe longer depending on attendance).
Once hearings are complete and the public comment period is over, all comments will be summarized. That summary will be shared with the advisory committee and the rule may be revised accordingly prior to going back to the NRB to seek adoption. The exact time we go back to the NRB is not set, but will likely be January at the earliest, more likely February, maybe later depending on the extent of changes.
2007 permits will be issued under current rules.
I look forward to hearing your comments on the proposed rules. I urge you to provide specific comments on specific aspects of the rule along with reasonable alternatives.
Patrick Schmalz, WDNR
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Location: Appleton wi | tyee are you a law enforcement or dnr employee? | |
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| Dan,
Just what more would they like us to share? I mean anyone that reads fishing mags has it all in front of them. If you can read a simple map and look at all the spots on the water anyone could do the same as a Tour fishermen. You can go to any water in the U.S and things change weekly and sometimes daily. I never get the part where "we" need to share more info. What worked at one site often times will work anywhere. Since about 90% of tournament fishing is trolling, just cover water. It's that simple, find active fish and keep changing until you find what they want the most. walleye's have a brain the size of a pea, they have habits just like anything else. People need to spend more time finding where and when VS who and how. | |
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| Eye, No I am not why do you ask? | |
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Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | tour guy - 10/27/2006 9:19 AM
Dan,
Just what more would they like us to share? I mean anyone that reads fishing mags has it all in front of them. If you can read a simple map and look at all the spots on the water anyone could do the same as a Tour fishermen. You can go to any water in the U.S and things change weekly and sometimes daily. I never get the part where "we" need to share more info. What worked at one site often times will work anywhere. Since about 90% of tournament fishing is trolling, just cover water. It's that simple, find active fish and keep changing until you find what they want the most. walleye's have a brain the size of a pea, they have habits just like anything else. People need to spend more time finding where and when VS who and how.
Perception: The mental grasp through the senses of objects and situations. Insight. Knowledge gained through perceiving. How one see's a person or subject.
Tour Guy.
I agree in large part to what your saying. It is not that hard for guys genuinely in love with the sport, to learn on their own or by simply observing, to become successful at fishing. It's often what I write about or tell people who wonder what the real secrets are. But there are people buying the boats, gas, gear and equipment. Using the ramps and marinas, that will never be more than passive weekend users of the resource. We see them at the ramps and marinas every time we go fishing. There not that hard to recognize.
That's why all Pro's in any sporting field are often perceived by individuals on different levels. Some sporting Pro's become hero's in the eyes of Joe Blow or are hated for no reasons other then their success and financial well being. Even I as a charter Captain (to a lesser degree) have suffered the same slings of arrows and stereotyping/perceptions at the ramps and marinas as Pro fishermen do. Nice Big Boat, always seems to catch fish, never enough time to talk, be nice or share info. And even though I always try to take the time to dispel this perception on these boards and at my marina (often to the dismay of friends, other charter professionals and members) there are days when I just can't. Those days leave the same impression and suggest the same thing to Joe Blow. I'm better than he is.
And Joe Blow can indeed go read a book, look at a map, or pay attention to the million other different things me and you do to find fish. But many either inwardly know, don't have the finances, the time or are locked into a life style that keeps him from ever trying to become better than Joe Blow in the 16 footer. He may not even have the extra time or money too read all these books we have coming in dedicated to fishing. But he still has a voice, an opinion, a PERCEPTION about what he hears and see's, and gets a vote.
So what's his alternative?, give up fishing all together because it's become to much hassle, time consuming or costly like millions have done these past 15 years according to many DNR poles. None of us, the boating industry or the sport itself could withstand that for very long. Plus the anti's would be that much closer to making every living creature words of the State.
Having a Professional of any kind, or the entity sponsoring the Professionals simply pay a little more attention to him, make his one day to be on the water a better experience, share some personal knowledge with him and make him feel he's just as important as the Lake he lives on (that the Pro came to fish), could go a long way in making him feel that the Pro he thought a stiff shirt, is just simply another Joe Blow taking his love for the sport to a higher level. | |
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| I would guess that our own Lake Winnebage would have similar results, excepting the commercial harvest aspect as the Ohio DNR has explained. The Ohio DNR claims that a little over 40% of the fish are lost from their system each year and that a little over 70% of that is lost do to natural causes. That means that less that about 12% (.3x.4) is lost do to commercial and sport fishing. Of course commercial fishing is not a factor in our inland lakes, so the number would be much smaller. What is the real impact of tournament fishing, aside the the PR landslide that has hit it? Practically nothing.
After the Merc Natl and the Otter Street tourneys, where are all the dead walleyes floating in the system?
I have not witnessed them in my days of fishing.
Take care,
Jim O | |
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Location: Appleton wi | Hey tyee i was just wondering. you always seem to be on top of issue regarding dnr and rules changes and stuff. Thanks for all your work and effort | |
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