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| Another thing that would improve upon information surrounding various circuits would be the release of the full results following the event.
Many circuits do not provide complete results information on the tournaments.
Missing are either first names, # of fish caught, or other data generally important to those who follow walleye fishing, and some only provide placing of the top three names or so teams, with no weights whatsoever.
Thoughts? | |
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Location: Appleton | Not sure what additional information you are looking for from TFM. The posting on yesterdays MWS tournament list the top five teams names, number of fish caught, weight, winnings, and the total number and weight of fish also stating that going to www.fishtfm.com you can see complete tournament standings.
Thanks
Jim Coon | |
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| Let me clarify that TFM has always been one of the leaders in providing immediate results and updates from their events, and they are operated at the highest level of professionalism, that is why it grows every year.
Specifically, your Winnebago standings don't show the number of fish caught, although you do provide the information for the top five in your press release. Many other circuits just provide names and no weights. These are just little things we, as anglers, run into when perusing the weekend's results from around the country. Information that I personally wish was available, and was curious as to what others thought? | |
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| they do show the total number of fish caught, and the total weight.
Oh, fish caught per team.
Edited by Shep 5/1/2007 11:06 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK, lets get something clear on this. No one is attacking any one circuit so don't start defending what they do and how they do it.
The more information that a fan can get regarding the various events, the more of a fan they will become. some people just have the love for walleye fishing and others just don't know that they have the love for it, YET!!
"Knowing is half the battle" has been written and talked about plenty of times. To grow the sport of walleye fishing, it is a must to tell them about you. keep telling them about you, and tell them even more about you. If you do not believe this, just ask how many northern hillbillies knew about nascar and how it all worked at the beginning. Now, well, the best damn marketing ploy ever. Can walleye fishing reach such heighths? Sure, but there is one thing that needs to start happening!! They need to keep telling everyone about it.
Not knowing what there, the industry, plans are for marketing in areas, ties anyones hands from making marketing advise, but we can tell what we like and what we dont like. Everyone does it there way right now, maybe, just maybe, its time for organization of the promoters. That may be the best start.
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Location: Appleton | We have changed our tournament standings report from Sunday's MWS tournament to include the team's number of fish caught. If you go to www.fishtfm.com you can see the updated report. The team numbers of fish caught will also be on the standing reports for all future tournaments including the Mercury National. If someone has any other suggestions let me know and we will try to provide the information. Either e-mail [email protected] or call 920-731-3474
Thanks
Jim Coon
Edited by Jim Coon 5/1/2007 2:45 PM
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| Much better seeing the number of fish each team caught. Thanks Jim.
I would also like to see the full field which includes those that zeroed. That way I can see everyone that fished. Without them listed it is a little misleading. | |
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Location: Appleton | We do not list the zero boats because we feel anglers would prefer not to see thier names with a zero. In many cases teams may have fish but decide not to weigh thier fish because they feel they do not have enough to place in the tournament. That is why I will say the total number of boats fishing and the number of teams that caught fish. I noticed I did miss that in this weekends release. There were eighteen boats that did not weigh fish this past weekend. I appreciate the comments.
Thanks
Jim Coon | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Jim, I for one applaud the quick response to questions. On the fact of not posting names of the zeros, I believe that sometimes it is a good thing and here is why. When a guy is starting to think about entering the tournament world, he looks at results from local events. If he does not see a name on the board of a local hit stick, he may think that it was not worth there time to fish, thus not worth his time either. Also, it goes along way for the mental wellness of the guy who did blank and also sees that a local hot stick blanked as well. It will keep there spirits high.
I also believe that posting all payouts is a good thing. You can see how far down was paid to 140 boats. I realize some guys want to take pot shots for the percentage paid out by any one circuit, that is where the home website comes into play. Explain how our tournament entry fees work for championships and the like. I think all circuits need to do this. Just like truth in lending. | |
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| you can figure out who zeroed. look for the teams with 10 points in the standings, and then compare to the results of an individual tourney. Some of those who caught fish will have 10 points, too, so you'll have to take that in to consideration.
I think Jim's responses, and actions show that he listens to the anglers. I like fishing in his tourneys. They are well run, and provide great competition. I always make sure I thank him for letting me play that day. | |
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Location: Appleton wi | Shep this year results were alittle different since there was a good all around catch by most anglers there are some who caught one fish and recieved 10 points..
Edited by eye Lunker 5/2/2007 8:30 AM
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| I believe that is what I said above. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Shep - 5/2/2007 7:56 AM
you can figure out who zeroed. look for the teams with 10 points in the standings, and then compare to the results of an individual tourney. Some of those who caught fish will have 10 points, too, so you'll have to take that in to consideration.
RESPONSE
Sorry shep, but that does not cut it. I may have to do alot of homework to figure out what could have been fed to the fan base in moments. And I would still be guessing.
NOTE!!! This is in no way beating up on the MWS. If you are reading this and have not fished a MWS event, DO SO!! They are very well run and you get alot for your buck, BELIEVE ME!!
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| As a fan I like to see who zeroed. Maybe others don't care. As a competitor who caught fish I want the zeros to be there too, as I took the risk of a zero just like everyone else. As one who didn't I'm not sure. The "fear of the zero" is a big motivating factor in this sport, why take it out of the equation?
Also, it is a bit misleading when trying to figure out what the bite was like, when it looks like everyone caught fish. I think I subconsciously look for the zeros at the bottom of the sheet when judging that.
For example, in the FRC last year Schuette and Ruffolo both zeroed (i think). I KNOW people looked at that and said to themselves, "Wow, that HAD to be a tough bite if those guys zeroed". Fans knew it was tough just by looking at the low weights, but that really put an exclamation point on it.
Maybe we should just make a new name for it, like "unfulfilled limit" and show a "ul" instead of a zero, to protect the fragile egos of those that zeroed?
Can you imaging if other sports did that? What would it look like? (I apologize in advance to Packer and Lions fans)
NFL News
Packers vs Bears
Bears 28
Lions vs Vikings
Vikings 10 | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | I totally agree with Zach there. I too like to see who zeroed. I think it takes away from the overall coverage if your not seeing everyone that fished the event. If you pay the money to fish the event, well then that is your choice. Like Stacker said, only way to get this bigger is providing in depth coverage. Look at the PWT and the FLW tours. It's almost a guarantee for just about every tournament that you will see one big name, if not more zero one or more days an event.
So Jim, I think for promoting purposes, I think personally you should show the full results. But that is me, so take it for what it's worth. | |
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| I too like to see the zeros, as well it introduces me to the names of the folks that are fishing an event if there is no line up ahead of time! My ego's not fragile but anything can happen. Luck would have it as I do know that I am as bad as half the field and worse than the other half.
Good Luck
Tyee
"still waitin' for that 5-8 tournamnet circuit" | |
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| I would like to see the zero's as well. My name hardly ever shows up and she is starting to wonder if I even fished the tournament or did I find another woman that likes a guy with some meat on his bones?! So save my marriage here Jim and post the zero's! | |
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| "Maybe we should just make a new name for it, like "unfulfilled limit" and show a "ul" instead of a zero, to protect the fragile egos of those that zeroed?"
HAHAHA that's some funny stuff. | |
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| I have no dog in this fight but you all have me confused. I looked at the standings to see what you are talking about and there are 32 teams with ten point from this tournament. So does that mean that 32 teams zeroed and got the lowest points possible? I thought someone said that 12 teams caught no fish. | |
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| Not really a fight just a discussion on what walleye tourney fans like to see in the results, however your confusion illustrates the point quite well. I'll reiterate again this is not a criticism of anyone just a discussion of what types of results people like to see, all circuits report in slightly different ways.
For example, why does the FLW use pounds and ounces? I think it creates too many ties and also (selfishly) creates a conversion headache when adapting their data to work with our leaderboard. | |
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| Zach, just my gut feel, but I think when the FLW announces weights at their weigh-ins. You can place more annuciation on pounds and ounces.
10 POUNDS 8 OUNCES sounds better than 10.5 Pounds. Drama. Just a guess. Having gone to a few FLW weigh in's and participating in a couple. The FLW does a nice job of creating "drama" during the weigh-in.
Speaking of weigh-ins. the in tank weighing that the FLW uses is totally cool. I think the PWT could use some improvment there. The fish are a key element to this sport. SHOW 'EM OFF. PWT doesn't even have clear tubs where you can see the fish. they have an cloudy white/clear tub. yeah you can see fish...but not nearly as visible as a clear bag or in tank live weigh-in.
Just like UPS's "I wanna race the truck"..........I wanna see the fish! | |
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| Yeah we've (WalleyeFIRST) have talked about the clear weigh tubs alot, especially in the context of taking photos at the events. Very nice. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | That is another very good point. Seeing the fish.
Have you ever went to one of the two biggest local tournaments on lake winnebago and never seen a fish? I go just to watch the girls anymore, and, well, the cold beer!! LOL!!
A rough list of requests starts with:
1. a players list starting 5 days in advance of the event
2. a set of specific rules for each event, if applicable
3. a complete set of results after the event
4. a better viewing oportunity of the fish by all.
Please add your own at this point.
This is great discussion, thanks everybody!! | |
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| Denny add another one. Insisting that the Pros mix and mingle in the crowd every day of the tournament rather than just with their families on the final day! Or having multiple "meet the pro events" throughout the tournament!
Exposure of the talent is what it is about! Not the big trailer!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | The reason for not using the clear tanks is that it comes down to an image thing. I know, I to like seeing the fish in the clear tanks that the FLW use but I can recall one tournament last year that a lot of people would have been up in arms about seeing fish getting weighed in and not being in water. But this is the reason why the PWT does not use the clear tanks, also, biologists have shown that fish mortality in livewells that are blacked out and holding tanks like the big black cow tanks that fish mortality is better with the dark tanks. Another thing that has been proven that fish mortality rate with a water weigh-in such as the FLW is more for image. It's been proven that this kind of a weigh-in does not increase the chances any more than a non water weigh-in.
Now I will say this to any of you that doubt me on this. If the water weigh-ins such as the FLW events, Bass and Walleye. If it has been proven that fish mortality is better with water weigh-ins, then why wouldn't B.A.S.S and the PWT have water weigh-ins? If there was sufficient evidence showing that water weigh-ins are better for the fish, then I can bet you the PWT and B.A.S.S would be doing a water weigh-in. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Tyee, I totally agree with you about the pros mixing and mingling with the crowd. Here is the downfall. Many guys are at an event on the big circuits I'm talking for up to a week in advance. Three or four days of solid fishing, waking up very early and late nights. Think about how you would feel after a tournament? I guarantee from seeing Gary Parsons the other day that he was exhausted. I know Gary and if someone would come up to him he would be the professional he is and would sit and talk to anyone. But fish as hard as he did for three straight days, tell me after those couple days how you would feel about wanting to stick around? Also, guys have families, a lot of them want to get the heck out of the area and get back to there families, with many of them going from one event to the next such as the guys who fished the PWT last week, were heading straight from there to Red Wing to do it all over again. However, Friday of last week, many of them were there standing around and talking and being professional. But after spending a full season last year on the road and seeing these guys progress through a week, I don't think it's something that should be made mandatory at all. Another thing on top of that, lots of guys don't stick around because once they weigh in, they have to keep moving through so the next guy can take his spot at the docks. It's a big job to keep things running smoothly, because if you don't, then it looks unprofessional. So that would be another reason for guys not sticking around. However, they could come back to the weigh in.
Edited by Merckid 5/2/2007 6:16 PM
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| Merckid- I normally agree with and enjoy your posts, but I must disagree with your water weigh-in thinking. There are so many other factors involved, it would be virtually impossible to study the effects of the water weigh in system by itself, so we must use common sense. Common sense tells me that keeping the fish in water (they do their best to keep it temperature constant) while weighing them is far more beneficial than doing it dry. I'm not saying it is going to keep all the fish alive, but ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, how can it NOT be better?
Dave S | |
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| "The reason for not using the clear tanks is that it comes down to an image thing. I know, I to like seeing the fish in the clear tanks that the FLW use but I can recall one tournament last year that a lot of people would have been up in arms about seeing fish getting weighed in and not being in water. But this is the reason why the PWT does not use the clear tanks, also, biologists have shown that fish mortality in livewells that are blacked out and holding tanks like the big black cow tanks that fish mortality is better with the dark tanks. Another thing that has been proven that fish mortality rate with a water weigh-in such as the FLW is more for image. It's been proven that this kind of a weigh-in does not increase the chances any more than a non water weigh-in."
I'd like to see your sources that back up your OPINION, TJ. I don't think there is any data out there that would amount to a hill of beans other than one's opinion on weather it would make a difference. I do think people being able to see the fish will make a difference....even if the fish are dead. Yes, you'll always have some public perception of tourneys killing fish no matter what. We're not trying to win over the people that are anti-tourney. We're trying to win over the fans and get them more excited/involved.
I stick by my guns....I WANNA SEE THE FISH!
Edited by Jayman 5/3/2007 8:23 AM
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| http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/images/main_050207.jpg
Take a look at this link. I'm curious to how many people think it would be a better picture with just two guys standing in the picture and a caption that says Day 1 leaders. Or do the fish make the picture worth a 1000 words? I rest my case. | |
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| TJ, the FLW holding tanks are dark we are only talking about the actual weigh basket being clear, so you can see the fish when they are being weighed and carried on the stage. Also the only difference between the time PWT are out of water and the time FLW fish are out of water in when the fish are actually being weighed, but, like someone else said, how can that be bad?
What would this picture say with an opaque basket? Not much. For all you'd know he was carrying a bunch of laundry.
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Zach, ya, I swore I read holding tanks prior to getting on stage were clear. But maybe I just misread that part of it, my bad.
I agree for taking pictures and letting people see the fish those baskets are the way to go, I'm not disagreeing with anyone there. What I'm saying though, believe it or not. But that is an image thing, and I think circuits that don't use clear baskets are making a better choice personally. I guess in my opinion, why give people more fuel to make controversy about how fish get handled at tournaments? That's my question.
Edited by Merckid 5/3/2007 9:37 AM
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| Here are the holding tanks. They are all aluminum I believe.
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| And the image/sound of fish flopping around in white baskets out of water on stage is a better image than them seeing the fish swimming exactly how?
Sure if someone is looking to complain about something they can complain if they see a floater in a clear tank. But that same person isn't already complaining about the fish flopping around with no water?
If it was truly a case of the PWT worrying about the "image" of the fish, then the weighing would be done backstage and the pro would just come up to talk about his weight that was being displayed. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Merckid - 5/2/2007 6:12 PM
Tyee, I totally agree with you about the pros mixing and mingling with the crowd. Here is the downfall. Many guys are at an event on the big circuits I'm talking for up to a week in advance. Three or four days of solid fishing, waking up very early and late nights. Think about how you would feel after a tournament? I guarantee from seeing Gary Parsons the other day that he was exhausted. I know Gary and if someone would come up to him he would be the professional he is and would sit and talk to anyone. But fish as hard as he did for three straight days, tell me after those couple days how you would feel about wanting to stick around? Also, guys have families, a lot of them want to get the heck out of the area and get back to there families, with many of them going from one event to the next such as the guys who fished the PWT last week, were heading straight from there to Red Wing to do it all over again. However, Friday of last week, many of them were there standing around and talking and being professional. But after spending a full season last year on the road and seeing these guys progress through a week, I don't think it's something that should be made mandatory at all. Another thing on top of that, lots of guys don't stick around because once they weigh in, they have to keep moving through so the next guy can take his spot at the docks. It's a big job to keep things running smoothly, because if you don't, then it looks unprofessional. So that would be another reason for guys not sticking around. However, they could come back to the weigh in.
The part of mingling amongst the crowd is not directly related to the last day of competition TJ, you may have mis understood the object. In dirt bike racing, snowmobile racing, in competitive water skiing, the contract pro's are required to sit at tables and sign auto graphs and talk with the public. Sure, they are out of the sun and they are getting the fluids and rest they need after competing and there are over seer's making sure that over zeleous fans do not get to pushy. This has not happened in competitive fishing. I do know that ego's will be sprung when they get asked to be at the table. T.J. without attacking you,but, You have a tendancy to buck up for the way things are being done now, and thats good, the devils advocate, BUT, do you know the definition of insanity? let me tell you, "Keep doing what you are doing now and expect something to change". Its impossible to grow the sport by continuing to do things status quo. I believe that the ceiling is being reached. With good input from the fan base, such as this thread, the circuits can make a decision to be on the cutting edge. Lets just think about the FLW. They have there core sponsors who are now wrapping boats. Don't you think that Juls and Gain, Keenan and chevy st.peter and e-cell should meet and greet for there money? Besides that, even though a fan recognizes someone in the crowd, they may not walk up to them when they are in conversation and say hi. At the table, well enough said.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | and for the record T.J., I totally disagree with all your statements regarding the tanks, tubs and the stats that you cannot produce regarding weigh in mortality and the tanks they use. The need to see fish is much greater for the sport. Wanna get people over the mortality of fish? Have some one filleting everyone of the dead ones and make free fish sandwiches for the crowd. Stuff some hot walleye in there mouth and they will stop complaining that a few fish died. | |
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| "I agree for taking pictures and letting people see the fish those baskets are the way to go, I'm not disagreeing with anyone there. What I'm saying though, believe it or not. But that is an image thing, and I think circuits that don't use clear baskets are making a better choice personally."
I'm hearing a lot of talk out of both sides of your mouth. But that's just an opinion. 
I agree with How's comment...."If it was truly a case of the PWT worrying about the "image" of the fish, then the weighing would be done backstage and the pro would just come up to talk about his weight that was being displayed." Sarcasm added, TJ, do you honestly think that would be the best image for walleye tournaments?
And please spare me the private messages that say I'm picking on you. Learn to accept the fact that your idea may not be the best idea.
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Location: Rhinelander | I see good points from all sides of this discussion. Please remember, ideas are just that, and will be accepted or rejected based on each person's personal perspective. All are entitled to opinions and ideas, as long as we present them in a respectful and reasonable manner. Fighting over ideas has a tendency to 'go personal' pretty quickly, which in this case would be a shame.
What is 'best'? I would venture to say that is up to each circuit in the end, and that was not the question. Keep in mind that you may not necessarily be the target of the circuit's weigh in protocol, some of that may be for the onsite crowd, some for TV, and some for Media present during the weigh in.
What would YOU like to see? Why?
Also, keep in mind these events go on for 3 to 4 days. It may not be practical for the Pros to remain for crowd interaction, for way more than the simple reason that they do, in most cases, have to get the rig out of the water and off site because of space availability. I'd be reluctant in some areas to leave my rig offsite while returning to sign autographs. If the anglers have to take the rig to the hotel, campground, etc, by the time they get it buttoned up and make ther way back, the weigh in is over. The weigh ins last two hours, wrapping up at about 5 PM. The crowd is gone fast as soon as the last angler weighs in. IMHO, the crowds are there to see the fish and the competition. | |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | I too like to see all the names.. i too have had a ZERO on the back side of my name on a few tournys ... but when i look at the results i look for friends and names i recognize .. when i see a zero fish count for the bottom half of the field i know the bite was hard.. and when i see a few names on the list who i know are acceptional anglers and they have 1 or no fish .. i know how hard it was out there.. this creates more value for the guys at the top of the list. 5 fish 8 lbs to win a tournament means one thing, but it is another if there were only 2 boats out of 125 with a 5 fish day... and if only half the field braught fish to the stage.. well you get my point... BUT,,,, i do understand that it takes a lot of time and staff to put a tournament togather ... i know to sit down and put it all on line is also sometimes hard to get done. forgive us for the request for more information.. more more more.. i guess we just cant get enough.. its an illness ... but thanks for all the hard work.. to jim and all the other tournament directors and staff.. brad | |
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| Ok I'll disagree with you Steve the crowds are there to hear where they are biting and what they are biting on. and possibly google at the nice rigs. (quite a few are there to see if their help payed off). Maybe have their kids get an autograph from their favorite pro! and I'm sure there are others reasons but......If you want to grow the sport you need STARS! and the only way that is going to happen is to put them in front of the audience a 30 minute TV show isn't going to do it!. If they can't make it after weigh in's maybe there needs to be a formal dinner event where monies are charged for a seat and it's donated to charity. Possibly a meet and greet that everyone needs to attend before the start. but to say they cant attend because they have to pack and hit the road to the next tourney is silly! They HAVE to find ways to get the public involved with the Pros directly! It is done in every other major sport! Maybe it should be mandatory that everyone appears at a bait shop in that state! hummm. I don't have the answers but there needs to be more involvement regarding public perception of tournaments. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The PWT and FLW do hold events during prefish that involve the public.
There are many practical problems with the idea of 120 pros and Co Anglers staying onsite to sign autographs, some of which have been mentioned.
Off water weigh ins might be more user friendly for that concept, but keep in mind there might be as many as 120 pros there, meaning 120 boats on trailers. At Red Wing there are multiple pros who are launching at the resort they are staying in, another landing, or whatever. The parking lot here is about a 5 minute walk, and would require a few 'guards' if the pros had to stay at the weigh in. What is being suggested would be tactical nightmare, but might be sometimes, but not always possible.
Most sporting venues have arenas, tracks, or other facilities designed for the crowds and the participants, yet ALL Walleye tournaments need to use public access ramps and get by with the weigh in there or close by. Kill events allow for off site weigh ins, usually a parking lot at a local retail facility, and during those many of the Pros remain to watch the weigh in finish up. FLW has, of course, the Wal Mart final day weigh in, and the 10 remaining Pros do hang around for awhile. Still, within minutes after the event, POOF, no crowd. I'm mixing with that crowd for the entire event, and do see some autographs getting signed, especially on kid's hats.
'Every other major sport'..... I know what you mean, but 'other major sports' have arenas, the crowd is restrained by where they are required to sit, and the 'stars' rarely just walk through the bleachers mixing with the crowd saying hello and signing autographs after the game. Additional events designed to get the public and the Anglers together are the key, and the PWT and FLW both occasionally offer them.
A REALLY big crowd is about 1000. Any more than that, and the stage would be too far for anyone to see it, anyway. Weigh in's are not in arena settings except for the PWT Championships, (FLW uses a tent designed for top shelf TV coverage) but could be if the sport grows enough to support the concept. The cost is HUGE, and logistics very difficult. The venue would most certainly severely limit the waters where events could be held just because of the necessary facility.
Side note, I meant the 'fish and the competition' to include all that is said and seen on stage. | |
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| Additional comment regarding meet the pros....a number of years ago there use to be this circuit called the RCL. Known as the FLW today. When the RCL started out with their RCL Championship they had the night before the tourney started a segment of time called "Meet the Pro's night". There must be a good reason why the FLW did not continue this. Any guesses? I'd be willing to guess that enough fans didn't come out for it. Just a guess.
I think it's possible to organize some kind of "Meet the Pro's", but I'm not sure if the fans want it. Perhaps it needs to be PROMOTED better. I think the people that do want the autographs from the pro's are getting them. At the PWT weigh-in last Friday. I saw someone walking around that was wearing an orange hat and had a bunch of signatures on their hat. So the opportunity does exist.
Again, I'm not sure the fans want it. I'm part of the Sheboygan Walleye club, we had the opportunity to get Tom Kemos. Which our club did not show enough interest to be willing to pay the amount that would be required to bring in a top name pro for a "meet and greet" session with the club. Along with gaining pro knowledge information. As a club I'd say we are all fans or tournament fishing.
Promote it and the fans will come. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Jayman,
The PWT has the PWT school at every event. You probably know about it but it usually consists of about 2 or 3 pros putting on a presentation relative to that certain body of water. So last year for example, we were on Devils Lake, Tom Backer and Dave Randash put on a presentation about corking and what you need to look for as to what areas will be better than others. They also incorporated other tactics such as throwing crankbaits and pitchin jigs. They have these school at every event. Not always with great turnouts but they have them. Not every place or venue has the resources to do things like meet and greets with the pros but when they do they really try to. It's hard to put things on like this when the tournaments start in the middle of the week and end on a Friday or Saturday. For example, there was a meet and greet put on by Critters in Winneconne I believe the day of the tournament. I know the PWT championship of course has multiple opportunities for meet and greets. As well as many pros visiting area schools.
Now to regards of what Stacker comments to me about. Stacker, it isn't that I'm trying to play Devils Advocate, I think it takes time for change, you can't make such sudden changes and expect them to fly without some kind of uproar. When things have been done one way for so long, and trying to change so much at once I don't see it happening. I'm all for your ideas, but I'm looking in hindsight and from what I saw last year that the sport isn't ready for some stuff. Look how long it took B.A.S.S to get where there at. This can't and won't happen overnight, it didn't happen overnight for B.A.S.S. Believe me, I want this sport to grow and prosper as much as everyone here wants it to but it takes time and little steps lead to bigger steps. What OutdoorsFirst is doing here is definitely in the right direction that the sport is needing, but I can bet if you ask Mr. Worrall that this all hasn't happened overnight, it's taken time for this site to get where it's at now, and on the verge of really taking off like it's co-sight MuskieFirst. | |
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| PWT school at every event. If that is the case then it is poorly promoted. I was at 2 of the 3 days of weigh-in at the Winnecone PWT event and watched it live right here on WalleyeFirst for day 2. Not at any time was I aware of or heard of a PWT school. Poorly promoted.
Getting the fans involved with the Pro's is a good idea, how is the question.
As for change, I believe many of the ideas that are agreed upon thus far are not huge changes, some of them carry a financial burden with them but nothing that I would consider a deal breaker. If these are radical changes then I'm all for radical. I don't believe that's the case, I do believe that these are changes that this sport has been longing for, just that they haven't been obvious.
I WANNA SEE THE FISH!!! (hehehe makes me think of the Brown truck) | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | TJ, I really do not understand where you are coming from. You state that "you can't make sudden changes and expect them to fly without some kind of uproar". T.J. , what the heck do you mean? Whoooooo is going to be in a uproar if the circuits post the lists of competitors 5 days in advance. Whoooooo will be in a uproar over being able to see the fish at a weigh in. Whooooooo will be in a uproar over the circuits compiling a complete list of results at the end of the event. I don't mean to be a no it all TJ but I have not just watched this sport for a year or two, I have watched it and competed in it for 20 years. I would like to know who would be in a uproar over 5 super pro's sitting at a table after a day on the water talking to the fans of the sport. I want to know who, because we should talk to them. Logistics. easy! At winneconne they could have roped off the area on the road right out front. The rigs could have had volunteers to help pull out. They could have scheduled the guys from the first flight each day at the tables 15 an event, x 6 events 90 guys. The only thing holding them back, is most the guys will not do anything for free. This is where the circuit needs to find the sponsor for this event. and pump it up. Don't say it is easier said than done, that is what marketing is all about. This could be the ecederin headache fighter.
Remember, the changes do not have to be large, in fact using your baby step plan, that is exactly what is to be done, baby upgrades. We are not proposing indoor weigh ins, or national TV coverage in prime time, that is totally unrealistic. You need to build the excitement way before such large strides.
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Jayman,
Here you go, every single PWT event that in the past few years have had a PWT school. They get promoted! It's on there website, it gets talked about in that town where there at for that event, people know about it. It's talked about on the radio, any news that decides to cover that event and talked about in the papers at that site. It gets promoted, it just doesn't always get great turnouts. Some places are better than others.
But here is the link where it's posted on In-Fish's website. This school takes place right before the rules meeting, trying to draw the co-anglers there a little bit early for this. That is the whole purpose behind doing it right before the meeting.
http://www.in-fisherman.com/pwt/tournaments/IFP_07WIschedule.pdf
Stacker,
Your comments about roping an area off. Go ahead and try, easier said than done that's all I have to say to that!
Now I am heading north to go and do some fishing for the weekend. All I have simply tried to do is give input on what I have seen. I guess all I can say is I know what I know, and I learned what I learned first hand and why. Trying to explain it to someone with difference of opinion well I guess that's where freedom of speech comes into play.
Have a wonderful opening weekend all and good fishing!
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| T.J., I eat, sleep, breathe fishing.....literally. Many people think I'm nuts, "to each thier own" I say. With that said, I did not hear nor was I aware of the PWT school. I like to consider myself a fan of the sport and a person who is in the know compared to the Avg Joe. (Sorry WF'er Avg. Joe). I don't have any recollection of people I know talking about the PWT school. Again, I say poorly promoted.
Don't take this as arguing, I think it's great discussion. I think these very simple idea's as Stacker discussed are baby steps in the right direction.
Good luck fishing. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | TJ good luck with your fishing this weekend. Try to calm down man.
Now back to the discussion.
If the school was designed for the public, they never told us, again, never told us. I would also like to see the rules meetings open to the public. It would be cool to be at them. Not just sneak in.
Edited by stacker 5/3/2007 3:41 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | So where, other than local media and the PWT Website, would you expect the PWT Schools (designed mostly for Co Anglers, I believe) to be promoted, and how? Where do you get your other In Fisherman PWT News? | |
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| OK, I spent 15 days in Winneconne and live locally, I never heard anything about a PWT school, and am (almost) as passionate about fishing as Jayman. I did hear about a single event at Critters for a couple of pros......but like someone else said that can get pricy..It should be MANDATORY for every pro that signs up to put in a couple of hours community service for the community be it promoting the event or their sponsors but definately a community service, like they did here the day after the tourn fishing with kids. Or at a local food pantry, community shelter hospital or sport shop at no charge (definately no charge to the hosting community they pay enough to get you guys here!. These services SHOULD be mandatory from the tournament director god knows they make enough money. Steve,,,take a look at Denny's comments he said it better than I did, it wouldn't take much to put the top ten on the final day in a tent for an hour for everyone to meet! And no they shouldn't get paid for that!
These community services look good on a resume but more importantly bennefit you and the community, There is nothing wrong with giving back, this isn't about economics, it's a social issue.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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| Whois, thanks for your constructive comments, they will be considered. Now back to the topic at hand.
Great question, Steve. Is the PWT school aimed at the fans or the amatures/co-anglers? That really is the question. I think it's more for the am's and co-anglers. If it is for the fan it's poorly promoted. Again, as stated before, I'm a "local" and a fan and not once was I aware of a PWT school. Now take it a step further, if it's for the Am's/Co's I think it may lack impact. A good friend of mine fished as an amature, Big fish winner on the am side BTW, I don't recall him mentioning it or talking about the PWT school. He may have been aware of it. But it lacks impact, word of mouth is some of the best advertising.
If they want it for the fan base, which I do believe is a good idea, the more fans that come out on any given day/night equals bigger better things. The back side of that is sponsor exposure. Sponsors want their product/brand/service exposed to as many potential customers as possible, I think this is a given.
How do you get more people to the PWT School, if it's for the fans? one would need to get the drum beating. The more they talk about it at weigh in's people will keep it in mind for the next event. Fliers distributed locally, prior to the event. many of these key pro's that talk in these schools, I would think would be in thier own best interests to get the word out. Local media, TV/newspapers/radios, as you discussed is an option, but carry's a larger financial burder. Yes, their own website, but as most of us know, we visit multiple websites. It should spill over from one website to another, these message boards do have an impact. Many people are reading. Local newspaper, most of them have a short blurb about the tourney adding a sentence regarding thier PWT school wouldn't be painstaking.
Meet the Pro's, it's a good topic and perhaps deserves it own thread. I think a small brainstorm session of ideas by WalleyeFirst'ers alone could generate some realistic ideas and goals.
Edited by Jayman 5/4/2007 8:08 AM
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| I've been sitting back on this one, and getting a feel for how some of you feel on Pro accessability.
The accessabilty of the angling Pro's is second only to NASCAR and Local race tracks. And NASCAR is becoming more like the other sports, because of the demand on the racer's time. Show up at a launch in the AM during the prefish period, and not only will you get some face time with the pro's, you just might be invited to prefish with them. Attend the weigh in, and go to the exit side of the stage. You'll have access to the anglers, and if you ask them to come over to talk, they generally will. Most of the Pro's on tour are great guys, and willing to talk to you. There are very few who won't. Now I'm not saying you can have their undivided attention for more than a minute or two, but heck, what do you expect. NO other sport, other than racing, gives you this contact. Not Baseball, Football, Hockey. Basketball, you might get some face time, but it may be at the end of a players fist!
As for the PWT school. I have to agree, it is not promoted locally. In fact, I listen to sports radio most of the time in the truck. I never heard a peep about the PWT being in Winneconne, much less an adveretising for the PWT school. I think the tours ought to spend some time on the local radio and TV shows, promoting their events. Sonny would be great on the radio, as would Jim Kalkofen.SOme of the local Pro's would get some great exposure if they hit up the local TV stations, and some of the top name Pro's could do a lot in the way of promoting both the events, and themselves.
I have a couple ideas to get more fan interaction from the pro's. One of them will be ready for the LBDN FLW Tour event. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The Pros are not paid by the Circuits to fish, Tyee, they PAY TO FISH. This isn't Pro football where the team members are paid millions and are under contract with a team and community. Hosting communities rarely if ever pay anything to the Circuits. Usually, it's services in kind ( comp hotel rooms and meal vouchers) facilities, volunteers, and not alot more; sometimes even less. No cash cow there to milk, I'm afraid.
The Tournament Director makes so much he/she should have to do.....what? It's the PR folks who have the responsibility to 'get the word out' and most times they do a pretty fair job with the limited resources willing to publish events like Meet the Pro nights. Believe me, the local media is given every opportunity to attend and is very much invited to write the story on the event. In most communities, they do, and some even make the event front page stuff, I have shot a few Newspaper Cover copies and posted them. However, the Press Room at the PWT Championship was HEAVILY advertised, the top 6 anglers were there to interview every night during the event, and guess who was there to take interviews? WalleyeFIRST. The anglers were there, The PWT was there, the Media was very aware they were there, yet other than OutdoorsFIRST---the 'media' didn't show. They apparently felt they already HAD their story from the weigh ins, and headed out to get them on the air and in print.
Radio and TV advertising is out; too expensive to try to draw a few fans in, IMHO. It's up to US as fans to demand more coverage, the media reacts to demand. Local sports programming does mention each event regularly, one simply has to listen to that station, most times on local AM band.
Other than press releases which are plentiful before, during, and after an event, keep in mind the MEDIA decides what is posted, printed, and aired. The PR folks from the Circuits provide an open and welcoming platform, and the Media does what it will with the information provided.
Again, IMHO, the future of Walleye Tournament coverage is to the large degree right here on the web. If it's done well and meets the expectations of the fan base, as the old adage goes, they will come. OutdoorsFIRST will do a better job in the future publicizing the additional events surrounding the Tournaments.
I spoke with theFLW's Sonny Reynolds at length today. He does feel there is opportunity out there for more PR for the Pros AND the Co Anglers. As the sport grows, which is the goal of FLW Walleye, more and better coverage will result. I think he's correct, but that said, we (OutdoorsFIRST) can do a better job NOW getting what you would like to see published up on WalleyeFIRST.
Great discussion!
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Radio and TV advertising is out; too expensive to try to draw a few fans in, IMHO. It's up to US as fans to demand more coverage, the media reacts to demand. Local sports programming does mention each event regularly, one simply has to listen to that station, most times on local AM band.
And this paragraph summs up the original posters questions. What can be done to increase the fan base? Do you notice the statement, the media reacts to demand? That is one of the most important statements in all the writtings in this thread.
When it comes to the schools, that is a oportunity to promote circuit fishing and it cost nothing. The cost factors of the changes we speak of are nominal at best. Before and during is when you can take advatage the most, post tournament, well, its over and fans will be looking for the next venue. And the internet will be the primary source of communication, no doubt.
Many of us know woodeye at critters. If the school would have been promaoted that everyone and anyone can attend it would have been a wall to wall attendance and woodeye would have had a even better day at the rgister. It would not cost the pwt anything to have a school there, his beer sales would have evened that bill out. Understand? no cost factor. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Not sure if the PWT would host a School where there are alcohol sales, but that IS just a guess.
When the fan base puts the local TV station on notice by attending the event in the thousands, the TV station will be there to cover it. When it's tens of thousands, EVERYONE will cover it. When it's special interest from the folks Tyee mentions, you can expect the coverage now in place IMHO.
I like your lines of questioning though (Jayman and Stacker, tyee and Meckid, et al), how DO we, as a media source, increase the number of 'fans' watching the events? How can the Circuits increase the on site fan base? The largest attendance of any walleye event on the planet is the Mercury Marine National Walleye Tournament and Walleye Weekend. Now THERE is a crowd....could anything of that scale be pulled off without the full cooperation, investment, and involvement of the host community? How?
Keep in perspective; those reading this are ALREADY fans, or they would not be here. What we are really discussing, I think, is growing the sport, right? That's a process of growing sponsorship and generating the base to grow from. Major forward movement has been made on that front the last couple years, with a fairly bright future coming. Actually this was the original question:
"Another thing that would improve upon information surrounding various circuits would be the release of the full results following the event.
Many circuits do not provide complete results information on the tournaments.
Missing are either first names, # of fish caught, or other data generally important to those who follow walleye fishing, and some only provide placing of the top three names or so teams, with no weights whatsoever.
Thoughts?"
The conversation morphed to where it is now from there, which is great!
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Well, the school was at critters according to the pwt website, which is also the home of woodeyes bar and grill.
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Location: Rhinelander | Answers that one, I guess! How could that event have been better promoted? Where would promotion have to be placed to draw the necessary attention you are looking for? Who should do that, PWT or the host? Both? When, and how? | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Easy answer, The PWT Needs to say this" PWT school, Tuesday the 24th from 4 to 530 at critters,OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, PUBLIC WELCOME!! They never invited the PUBLIC!! And if they did, where is it stated. That is the simple stuff I speak of Steve. Everyone is over thinking this. Marketing 101, K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid. I spelled it for everyone else, I know you know that steve. The fan base will steadily increase if some very basic things are put out there that are missing. | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | I had heard of the PWT school, but I was under the impression it was a private deal for the co's. A flyer at a handful of baitshops or a press release on a website or two would have drawn A LOT of people IMHO. | |
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| I never mentioned advertising. I did say they need to get on local radio and TV shows and promote the tourney, and any activities associated with the tourney. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Guys, the reason I'm asking for clarification is I am talking to the tournament promoters about this thread and the concepts expressed. Shep, radio is good, are there specific ideas about programming or times?
I'll find out about the PWT school this week. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | The PWT school is open to anyone that would like to attend or in other words, it's been open to the public. I agree that it hasn't always been promoted well. But I do think it depends on if they get the local publicity from the local news stations, radio stations and the newspapers. I know Mr. Kalkofen works hard at trying to get the word out to the radio stations and any other news media he can.
However, I do think a majority of getting the word out about the school is partly up to the town to get the word out. The PWT comes in anywhere from 5 to 7 days ahead of the tournament. In my opinion, you can't always depend on getting great turnouts when things aren't promoted well in advance. I don't know how the PWT could inform more people about the school prior to them arriving to the town. I think if that town wants to attract more people, they need to get the information and the people in the town need to spread the word. I guess in my opinion, it's kinda hard to promote the school when the PWT is out of Brainard, MN. Yes, they could promote it more on the website, through the magazines but I don't think that's getting the word across to as many people as possible. Just my thoughts.
Edited by Merckid 5/7/2007 9:47 AM
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | All I want to know is where on the PWT site did you find the statement that the school was open to the public. I really would have went and let others know as well. The town did not have to promote, all that needed to be done was to state that the public is welcome to the schools. | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Merckid -
PWT sends out flyer to baitshops in hopes of attracting contestants. They could add a couple of words to those flyers and that would probably be enough. After that, even a simple press release to sites like this one would be more than enough to get something like the PWT school off and running strong.
Edited by Brad B 5/7/2007 10:20 AM
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Now I didn't say it said on there site that is was open, I guess for me, I would have seen it that way before working for them that it was open. If you look at the Winneconne schedule that I linked to earlier, that schedule on there, the events during the week kinda explained for the most part who and what they were for. For example, PWT rookie meeting, in my opinion that would mean just a meeting for the rookies that were fishing only, no one else. Another example, Mercury Pro Staff get together, meaning just the guys on the pro staff would be there. I guess the way I would read that, it would mean that it is open to the public. But I can see where your coming from, and saying that how do you know it's open or not to the public? From what I get from that flyer on there website, if it's stated who it's for, then I would suspect it's not open to the public, but it isn't, I would take it as open to the public. My question is, why woudn't it be? They try to put this school on somewhere where they can accomodate quite a few people, not just a handful. I can recall at a couple places last season like Devils Lake for example, they had this in an auditorium, with literally a couple hundred chairs. So plenty of room for the public. But I could be wrong on it being open to the public, but I know I got a lot of questions from the public about this school at the events. I personally have never heard of it not being open to the public. I think the biggest drawback is the timing of the school. It takes place at 4:30 and goes to 5:30, that is the downfall to it. Its on a Tuesday, and that's right at the time many people are just getting out of work. That is why I believe turnout isn't always the best. | |
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| The PWT School was put as part of the itinerary for the Pre-rules meeting. In the case this year they had 3 pros who did share some of their tactics how ever limited IE: slip bobber rigs, tuning lures, and a bit on planer board usage. But most of the emphasis was put on the Co-angler/Pro relataionship what to expect, how to act, netting fish, ect. As far as advertising it was not advertised as open to the public, it was not mandatory for the Cos either but was a good oppertunity to learn a few things from the Pros, they had about an hour to talk about things not really sure how many people would of drove to have 40 minutes to an hour presentation on a lot things most of you know already. Just a thought, over all I was happy again with the way the event was handled Jim and the PWT staff did a great job once again. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Brad B.,
I totally agree with you about getting a press release out to these sites such as WalleyeFirst. But ask Mr. Worrall about things like that, it's really easier said than done. But I think both the PWT and FLW work great with Mr.Worrall and they try to get the information to him but let me ask you this. If you were looking for information about something, wouldn't you go to the resource that would directly have the information? I understand if you don't know about the information in the first place, then it makes it kind of hard. But honestly, I don't know what they would say other than PWT school is here and with these pros. I don't even know if the PWT is always aware of what they will be talking about at a certain event. If I am correct on this, it's kinda up to the guys who are putting on the school from my understanding. All I know is that the PWT asks these guys if they could help out and they usually do. You don't see the tournament organizations posting on here do you? Why on earth would they want to post something on here when they have websites where it's displayed? I understand the promoting aspect but they also pay money to have a website also. | |
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| Here's what I found at PWT.com
http://www.pwt.com/
It's obviously not done as easy as said. Yes, TJ, you know exactly where to look. That's great, but in general most don't. Let's not assume the web is the easiest place to find this info, well versed individuals can find what they are looking for. Fans "in the know" can find what they are looking for. How do new fans find what they are looking for?
PWT school aside, The school is a small example of what I believe the main point was, "Meet the pro's". I don't see why there can't be some kind of a Meet the Pro's night the weekend before a major tourney starts. I saw many PWT players on the water 10days prior to the Winneconne event. So they are in town, the logistics I don't believe would be a nightmare. Perhaps some kind of a fish fry, maybe even walleye, or a dinner friday or saturday night before a major tourney. Not every pro has to be there, but enough that are accessible to the public, maybe a few get up and talk to the whole crowd. I can't see how this would not be in the best interest of the tournament circuit and the Pro's themsleves. The Pro's get the opportunity to promote themselves and their sponsor's. The circuit gets to promote itself, it's sponsor's and develop fan base. This is a simple idea. It just takes some planning, the costs associated with it are a wash.
Now there, please everyone, fire away and tell me how "impossible" this is.
Edited by Jayman 5/7/2007 10:59 AM
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Being someone that fishes the PWT, I was under the impression that the school was for the co-anglers fishing the event.
If it is open to the general public, I think they should try to do some promoting to get people into the school. Heck Steve, even a post on this website would bring people in. At least in Winneconne.
I think it should be a collaborated effort between the PWT, and the hosting community to promote the school, if they are trying to get more people at the event. How often can you get to see a seminar with 3 touring pro's for free, even if it is condensed? | |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | This is impossible Jayman. Not impossible like the chances of me winning the lottery, IMPOSSIBLE like the chances Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump getting married. Impossible like catching a BIG fish on a harness after your partner says "I sure wish that thing would hurry up and bite you off so we'd know what it is" kind of impossible.... hahaha
Merc - Everything is easier said than done. But in the realm of things, this wouldn't really be that difficult. Lots of aspiring Pro's are looking for face time. Many established ones would help if they could be free to work some discussion of their sponsors into the event. And for something like this were the framework is already established, were only talking about a minuscule amount of effort. The only question is does the PWT want to to this? After that, it very easy to do.
Edited by Brad B 5/7/2007 11:14 AM
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| sworrall - 5/7/2007 9:10 AM
Guys, the reason I'm asking for clarification is I am talking to the tournament promoters about this thread and the concepts expressed. Shep, radio is good, are there specific ideas about programming or times?
I'll find out about the PWT school this week.
Steve, I will ask a couple guys I know in the biness for some ideas. I think Axl may have some valuable insight, as he has a spot on here in Green Bay. I'll talk with him this week as well. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | My impression is that the PWT School is held mainly for the Co Anglers.
The Circuits DO host 'meet the pro' events from time to time. Less athan 50 is the average attendance, even at the Championships where the events are very very well advertised.
If a member of the public sees the promotion on the PWT site or here, they are probably already aware of the PWT, right?
The idea is building a larger fan base. Local events like PWT or FLW 'schools' tied to the Tournament won't be overly effective, IMHO. Here's why:
Those who look for this type of promotion are already watching the events.
The events are usually during a weeknight. Attendance will be almost exclusively local.
Weigh ins are during the week for PWT, and other than the Super Pro, are pretty much completed by the time most of us get out of work. The FLW final day is on Saturday, and yet despite lots of local, web, and other media promotion, there might have been a couple hundred plus at the final yesterday to watch Jason get a $100,000.00 check. The FLW makes no secret the weigh ins are designed for TV, but they accommodate the public very well.
All suggestions that small promotions might be a good idea accepted, the net gain of NEW walleye tournament fans will be very small, wouldn't you agree?
Both PWT and FLW air Television shows featuring every event.
Both PWT and FLW send press releases out to the general media frequently.
Both PWT and FLW strongly encourage local and statewide media to attend, promote, film, write articles, etc. Few do. Why? Because this isn't a BIG story for most media, it's basically a side bar or a 15 second sound bite during the sports at 10 PM. Yes, WE care, but the larger portion of the general public.......
Both PWT and FLW have added little festivals to some of the events to try to draw families and kids.
The WEIGH INS are designed to be the premier events. The crowd MEETS THE PROS through the MC, both Jim and Kevin do a great job. Yes, some of the Pros stay on and mingle, but again, were talking a REALLY BIG crowd that might be 2500 at a Championship and a few hundred at a qualifier. So....I'm betting that PWT and FLW are looking to the TV programs, their magazine, and their website to promote the events to the people who can't attend, most of whom are working during the majority of the event.
OutdoorsFIRST takes things a step further. We provide our user base with a realistic ranking system for the Pros, up to date and we hope interesting coverage during the events including video, audio, image gallery, interactive Leader Board, promotions like the Iron Man, press release publication, and more. If we are one of the premier sources for information on event day, then it's obviously good for US to draw in more fans.
My VERY humble opinion is:
We need to grow the sport of Walleye Angling/Fishing/Boating in general, and that is a tough project. Angler's Legacy and http://www.takemefishing.org are on the right track. In Fish and the PWT need to continually draw more and bigger sponsors into the sport to support the tremendous expense of actually REACHING a target market out there. Both have done a fine job of that.
The Pros need to involve their sponsors more in reaching out to the public. Pat Nue did just that with Toyota Trucks, and that program WILL assist them in becoming a player in the Walleye Boat tow vehicle market. Ranger/Evinrude does 'demo days' at all the events, involving Pros who stay over after missing the cut and local dealers. Lowrance is on display and open to the public's questions thanks in large part to Ron Hunter. Stowmaster/E-cell is there. Kwik Pfyt, Berkely, Lund Boats, G3 Boats, Toyota Trucks, Chevy Trucks, and more have representatives, and some have complete product displays, set up at each event. The PWT has a sport show at the Championship. This needs to continue growing.
And, most importantly, the Pros need USE the media to build a reputation and a fan base. Why is it almost every walleye angler out there knows exactly what Keith Kavajecz looks like?
Still, creating a walleye competition 'fan' out of a fellow who just likes to walleye fish is a difficult project.
Grass roots local promotion is assisted tremendously if the local Chamber, Business association, Media, etc. involve themselves. The Dakotas have fewer folks living in state than most other sites, yet draw much larger crowds. Why? Local PR involvement.
We need to step up coverage here, we are doing everything we can to do just that.
I listen to both circuit's execs speak to what they have accomplished and are trying to accomplish, and can promise everyone here they are very aware the fan base needs to grow. Both circuits are working within their own media sources ( that don't take rocket science to figure out) and with their sponsors to do just that, and graciously allow OutdoorsFIRST and other media sources access behind the scenes.
More to this in the big picture, but ALL of it ties together to grow the sport. And, it's working, or this discussion wouldn't be underway!
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Location: Rhinelander | I just listened to a telephone voice mail message from the Outdoor Channel, featuring an audio clip from In Fisherman TV. Pretty cool stuff, but really LONGGGGG. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sworrall - 5/7/2007 11:51 AM
My VERY humble opinion is:
We need to grow the sport of Walleye Angling/Fishing/Boating in general, and that is a tough project. Angler's Legacy and http://www.takemefishing.org are on the right track. In Fish and the PWT need to continually draw more and bigger sponsors into the sport to support the tremendous expense of actually REACHING a target market out there. Both have done a fine job of that.
The Pros need to involve their sponsors more in reaching out to the public. Pat Nue did just that with Toyota Trucks, and that program WILL assist them in becoming a player in the Walleye Boat tow vehicle market. Ranger/Evinrude does 'demo days' at all the events, involving Pros who stay over after missing the cut and local dealers. Lowrance is on display and open to the public's questions thanks in large part to Ron Hunter. Stowmaster/E-cell is there. Kwik Pfyt, Berkely, Lund Boats, G3 Boats, Toyota Trucks, Chevy Trucks, and more have representatives, and some have complete product displays, set up at each event. The PWT has a sport show at the Championship. This needs to continue growing.
And, most importantly, the Pros need USE the media to build a reputation and a fan base. Why is it almost every walleye angler out there knows exactly what Keith Kavajecz looks like?
Still, creating a walleye competition 'fan' out of a fellow who just likes to walleye fish is a difficult project.
Grass roots local promotion is assisted tremendously if the local Chamber, Business association, Media, etc. involve themselves. The Dakotas have fewer folks living in state than most other sites, yet draw much larger crowds. Why? Local PR involvement.
We need to step up coverage here, we are doing everything we can to do just that.
I listen to both circuit's execs speak to what they have accomplished and are trying to accomplish, and can promise everyone here they are very aware the fan base needs to grow. Both circuits are working within their own media sources ( that don't take rocket science to figure out ) and with their sponsors to do just that, and graciously allow OutdoorsFIRST and other media sources access behind the scenes.
More to this in the big picture, but ALL of it ties together to grow the sport. And, it's working, or this discussion wouldn't be underway!
The one question I have with this assessment of what has happened and what is happening and whats going to happen, is this.
Steves Quote:
Still, creating a walleye competition 'fan' out of a fellow who just likes to walleye fish is a difficult project.
Two schools of thought regarding this statement. The first would be, "if you are not transforming current fisherman to fans, then who is it that you will target to increase the fan base?" I live in weyauwega and in 2006 there was guys lining the river banks from fremont on up, watching the "pro's" come up. The locals went fishing everyday so they could fish amongst the pro's. They are not fans of the sport, they are fisherman, the weekenders of sorts who thought it very interesting to watch this bunch of very nice guys fish, but walked away when it was done not knowing anymore than that about the sport. Here is where the PWT could have had people at gills landing talking to the 100 or so guys who were there at 7 am watching them pass. I know these local guys, some were bass fisherman, crappie fisherman, catfisherman. But all in all they are fisherman.
The 2nd thing is, we were talking about the changes that could take place to better the experience for the current fan base. This would be some simple house keeping that should take place before the next growth in the fan base occurs. Mr. Kalkofen, you, at one time had a vision. Did it come complete? Or is there pieces still not yet fullfilled? As has been said in the past, prepare for the 2nd coming, for there will be one. No one said what has been done has been bad, just things we would like to see done with the current status quo to make it better.
Thanks
Denny Fox
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| Nicely said Denny!
Now what does PWT or FLW stand for again? (most people have no idea) I talk everyday to fishermen and you would be surprised at the amount that know NOTHING about profesional anglers or that there was a major tournament here last month. I also used to work in broadcasting, the morning show guys are always looking for guest appearances! (no cost just purely promotion) In the immediate area, we generate nearly 300 million dollars for the economy, have dozens of media sources,print, radio and television stations, we have dozens of bait and tackle stores and during the 10 days prior to and during the event here the ONLY thing I heard about or saw (other than from the complainers that their fishing spot was overtaken by tournament anglers) was when I drove through Winneconnie (the chamber there did a great job)
Now....Otterstreet will be all over the media as will the Merc Nationals.......Someone tell me why they get the attention and the PWT or FLW does not? (could it be that they give back a bit more to the community?) I don't know I'm just asking)
There is no reason a pro angler couldn't be at each and every sport shop prior to the tournament, there is no reason a pro angler couldn't do a 15 minute guest appearance on each local radio station, there is no reason a pro angler couldn't be interviewed by every tv station, and there is no reason that a pro angler couldn't be highlighted in each and every Gannet publication prior to coming to town.
You ever been to a Otterstreet, DU, pheasants forever, ducks unlimited, whitetail clasic or similar banquet? There's no reason NOT to have a banquet hall dinner reception before the tournament. Talk to the chamber, the monies raised could go to fish rearing, handicapped sportsman association or other related charity God knows there are enough out there!
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 5/7/2007 4:50 PM
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Tyee, I agree with everything you suggested. It always puzzles me why the professional walleye tours, PWT, FlW, don't get more press. Is it because it's not newsworthy? Or is it because we just don't pursue it?
I think the pro's would be more then willing to do everything you suggested, because it will also help promote and obtain more sponsors.
Our sport needs to be promoted better. Denny I didn't know there were so many interested in just seeing us drive by, and didn't know people were out there fishing within us, just to say they were fishing by us.
We need to pursue those fans, and do the banquets, do the morning shows, etc.. Not only will it help bring more fans to the sport, it will help promote our tours and the fisherman in the tours. | |
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Location: Rhinelander | What other sport requires unpaid participants to go to retail outlets for appearances before the event? Unless it's part of the contract ( one the athlete gets PAID FOR), not many Pro Athletes or Anglers will do that. Why? Because they need to be focused on the Game that is nearly on, prefishing and preparing for the event, and NO ONE IS PAYING FOR IT. Money talks, and you know the rest. The Circuits do NOT 'make money' so perish that thought, too, unless you want to see $2500 entry fees for the same payout. Sit with one of the executive directors and ask them about the road to where we are now and what they hope for.
I've been there behind the stages since the Manion Circuit, and competitive Walleye angling HAS come a very long way. Not happy? Some have thought the competition level and promotion could be stepped up. They did what they had todo to execute, got a couple million bucks together and started the FLW and PWT. That's what the Lindners and Irwin Jacobs did to improve on and advance the original concepts of the Manufacturers Walleye Council Tournaments, and those folks are some pretty heavy hitters.
In my VERY humble opinion, the ONLY way this would work at the grassroots level as we are discussing is for the Pro's Sponsors to carry that torch. Stacker has been hitting on that for a week without really saying it.
The Merc Nationals are part of Walleye Weekend, a huge festival with unbelievable local involvement, and not from the anglers, either. Who's weigh in trailer and equipment do they use? Heck, Jim Coon runs the thing these days, and very well, too. Shouldn't HIS other events get the same press? Over 30,000 attend Walleye Weekend, and how many are at the weigh ins? A couple thousand, and most of those family of the hundreds of anglers. I already addressed that. Otter Street is BIG, and is LOCAL, LOCAL TALENT, for the most part. Are the teams from either event bumping in to each other to volunteer for free seminars at the local sport shops? Is Mercury Marine or Otter Street holding Meet the Pros banquets just before the events to promote each tournament? Are they on local or national morning TV? Do either the Merc Nats or Otter Street have a featured show on television like FLW and PWT? Does IN Fish TV or Lindner Media (pretty big media names, yes?) film EITHER?
Easy to preach from the bleachers, guys. Get in the trenches once. Eric agrees on the form, but what is the actual function??? Talk won't get it done, but Big Money might. I think I covered that in my last post. Most of the Pros are working on their own money, for the most part. No Circuit is paying them to compete, it's the other way around. This isn't Pro Football, Baseball, or any other team sport, it isn't and will never be Nascar because there are no crash and burns. Fishing competition doesn't lend itself well to live national TV and the big dollars generated by advertisers there.
Each Pro definitely can make an impact locally, if that's in the Pro's time line and budget. Part of marketing the 'product', which IS the Pro's image.
Not as easy as it seems. | |
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| "Fishing competition doesn't lend itself well to live national TV and the big dollars generated by advertisers there."
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I believe it absolutely could, (there is a solution for every problem) and has to in order to reach the levels everyone describes.
Many of the ingredients for growing interest have been touched upon in the discussion, and center largely around creating channels and opportunities for anglers to acquire and build a following. The pros also need to take advantage of those opportunities.
What is it that makes what they do worth watching and investing your interest ? We (circuits, media) need to continue to highlight those qualities and reward people for investing their interest in the sport by providing entertainment value, and the fans need to demand it. However, all of this does take money so it becomes a step-wise, evolutionary process. Sometimes evolution happens under the surface and in a form you can't see right away, but is happening nonetheless.
I still contend that in tournament fishing, there are more parallels to Pro Golf than to the common NASCAR reference. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Mr. Sworrall:
Well said sir, well said.
However, I do believe that we offer something worthwhile for TV. I can not fathom the idea that poker and hot dog eating contests are more interesting than a fishing tournament. I believe that BASS is on the right track but we still have a ways to go. There are lots of interest stories out there that will make people want to watch and follow.
If the TV media continues to shoot a planer board for 30 minutes waiting for it to go back we will never grow the sport. But if they learn more about the Pro, do the interest stories, do more with teaching, show the 3D animations of the areas they are fishing, show the waves waiting with the kids at weigh-in, get the hat camera's, talk about the decisions of no cull events, etc etc
Shep made a good observation when we chatted at the PWT weigh-in. Why were there so many people the final day at Winneconnie (there were lots) but few come to the FLW Tour final day? Is it because it is in a parking lot? I have no clue but it is a good question.
There are plenty of Pro's that would be willing to do PROMO stuff prior or after the tournament. But once it begins they should be allowed to focus on the tournament.
Many Pro's would love to have a writer or local celebrity in their boat prefishing. This should be easy to make happen. Mr. Sworral, you are more than welcome to spend time in my boat at the Escanaba FLW Tour event. See how easy it is? | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Sunshine, I agree. The PWT nd FLW already do air TV programs, but a long way from live. As was mentioned, Golf is a good parallel, but imagine what it takes to cover just 10 anglers. A camera in every boat, another in a chase boat, and more. Airing an event live is VERY expensive, and as WalleyeFIRST mentioned, some events are probably eventually headed that direction. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Steve,
I never mentioned live. Others did. We are a long way from making that happen.
You know better than I, but I do not think that the costs are that prohibitive any more to put cameras in boats. There are cheap alternatives to make it happen. The cameras attached to hats or in the boat somewhere is a start. Collect them at the end of every day from your ten boats. FLW has tracking devices now. They know where we are. Why not allow a fisherman to call on a marine radio when they are on a major bite and have camera boat show up.
I watch the FLW and BASS shows whenever possible and I really think that they make the shows more interesting and appealing than walleye shows. Why?
Jason sat on a spot anchored for three days at FLW. Having a camera with him and doing the needed editing would have been exciting. Fish wraps around a tree, will it come off or will it be caught? The waiting game.......... no fish in 3 hours now what do you do? Last flight out, will a local or Pro be in my spot? His wife and kids were there, did they take the time to interview them before final weigh-in.? Did you? They can make it interesting.
There were a lot of different techniques being used successfully at Red Wing. Will we see this? Will we learn why people chose what they did? Did you cover this?
You and Zach are doing a great job with live chats during weigh-ins. But I have to ask myself why there were only 5 people logged in during final weigh-in. Do people care? You have your still camera and video camera there. When will we see some live feeds from the tournament? Will the PWT and FLW allow you? Is this cost prohibitive? WalleyeFirst is now the number one internet tournament coverage out there. Does the FLW and PWT know this and will they help to build on this? Or do they see you as threat? Are your interests the same as theirs? You both want to see the sport grow but with your involvement and success. Do your financial interests prohibit cooperative growth?
I watch every video you put out there during a tournament. Do others? Are you getting a good return on your time and money?
I wish that the PWT and FLW would allow you to tap into their audio feed at tournaments. Could you provide the ban width to shoot this to the web page?
You have the stats and lots of pictures of the anglers now. When someone is coming to the scales could you shoot their walleye ranking stats up on the screen with their pict?
When are you going to hire me so I can give you a lot more ideas to grow  | |
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| "You and Zach are doing a great job with live chats during weigh-ins. But I have to ask myself why there were only 5 people logged in during final weigh-in. Do people care?"
I do care, like many others I'm at work when there is a weigh-in, if it's local sure I can sneak out and check out hte action live. When it's not, I depend on the web to let me know. But the web is not perfect and those of us at work are most likely behind some firewall or other computer software that "protects us from the evils of the world". The internet still has a way to go to be as reliable as television, newspapers, and radio.
I can not access the live chat during weigh-ins, or chat at any time for that matter. Most videos that are on this very website run for about 10-30 secs and then just hang up, no more over. This is not a bash towards WF because it's on many websites that I have this issue. And I would suspect others do to.
Just a tid bit of why the internet is not perfect in my humble opinion. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | When the PWT Decided to, a long time ago, go to a weds, thurs, friday weigh in versus thurs, friday sat, they did it, for what I understand, 2 reasons. 1- to not have the pros using up the water for the locals that get to fish now and then. 2- to make sure the guys did not have to fight the weekend crowds and get better baskets.
What did this do to the ability of the PWT to increase the fan base. At the time it was implemented it did nothing bad as tournament walleye fishing was in its infancy and had lots of room for growth. Today, I believe the weekday weigh-ins are restricting the growth of the sport. It is not building a stage for manufacturers of all types of retail products to showcase them. There is nothing like attending any sporting event live. People are constantly watching what is hanging on banners and sublimily thinking about there products. Advertisers know this. Many of us get the chance to decide where our advertising dollars are best spent in business every year. There are many faucets to this equation. Marketing experts are best suited for this task. There are many that are hoping the internet will be the fan base savior, its great and WF rocks, but it will not be the sole reason that the fan base will grow.
I have a hard time believing that the circuits do not make money. No one is in this for there health. That is not the way things work.
Remember, not all changes need the big dollars to succeed, but they do need to be implemented.
As far as guys, the players, doing community stuff, well, I wouldn't do it for free when I am on the road. But if my sponsor said you will do this, then, that is what needs to be done, he is paying the bills.
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| Whoa lots of questions.
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"You and Zach are doing a great job with live chats during weigh-ins. But I have to ask myself why there were only 5 people logged in during final weigh-in. Do people care?"
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Reviewing the last 3 interactive weigh-in logs the number is more like 50 during the course of an event. It's a small fraction of the regular leaderboard. Many of the things we do - we don't announce them, we'll just put a link up just ahead of time to get a few people in to test the waters, see the reaction. We may change a few things and come back and try it a few events later. Also, the timing of weigh-ins (right during the time you would be leaving work), during working hours is bad. Most people can only check the regular LeaderBOARD and can't sit and chat during work. Even fewer could view an audio or video stream, but the numbers from last year's PWT Live Video at the Championship show that if you build it people will come to a certain extent.
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His wife and kids were there, did they take the time to interview them before final weigh-in.? Did you? There were a lot of different techniques being used successfully at Red Wing. Will we see this? Will we learn why people chose what they did? Did you cover this?
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We only have one person on-site during an event. Someday we will have two.... and then three...
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When will we see some live feeds from the tournament? Will the PWT and FLW allow you? Is this cost prohibitive?
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Remote locations would require Satellite Broadband with high upstream bandwidth and multiple people on-site. Non-remote locations use temporary broadband lines brought into the event. PWT and do this for some regular events and the championships, but have only broadcasted live video from the championship. So it's been done.
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I watch every video you put out there during a tournament. Do others? Are you getting a good return on your time and money?
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Our top three videos all have over 12,000 views. It is time well spent on our end.
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WalleyeFirst is now the number one internet tournament coverage out there. Does the FLW and PWT know this and will they help to build on this? Or do they see you as threat? Are your interests the same as theirs? You both want to see the sport grow but with your involvement and success. Do your financial interests prohibit cooperative growth?
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We work very well with both circuits, yet at the same time compete for the same eyeballs, which are really only mutually exclusive during live events. They both like having us there. The growth of walleye tournament fishing and any of the three entities you mention is good for all of us and I think everyone realizes that.
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I wish that the PWT and FLW would allow you to tap into their audio feed at tournaments. Could you provide the band width to shoot this to the web page?
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We have discussed this also, but from a slightly different slant. Bandwidth is not an issue.
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You have the stats and lots of pictures of the anglers now. When someone is coming to the scales could you shoot their walleye ranking stats up on the screen with their pict?
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Yes.
All of your ideas are good ones, although not new ones, and all take time, money and people to accomplish. Those of us that cover of run tournaments for a living probably have ten ideas for every one the average guy has thought of, simply because we think about it more. In short, there is no shortage of ideas or wish lists for coverage, but there is a shortage of what it takes to get the job done (time-money-people). All these ideas need to be sold to someone. It IS getting there, step by step. | |
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| I can not access the live chat during weigh-ins, or chat at any time for that matter. Most videos that are on this very website run for about 10-30 secs and then just hang up, no more over. This is not a bash towards WF because it's on many websites that I have this issue. And I would suspect others do to.
Just a tid bit of why the internet is not perfect in my humble opinion.
You don't have enough bandwidth to view the videos. Most video is delivered in Flash, and the bitrate we use is lower than most. IF you have sufficient bandwidth, then there are other issues with your set up or your hardware. I would definitely look into that because you are missing out on a ton of great content, and not just here. | |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Zach,
Thanks for your candid responces. | |
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| Trust me, Zach, if I had that kind of control the world would be a happier place And I'm guessing there are others in the same boat. We do need to be protected for our own good, as many IT people would state. Insert a lot of sarcasm here. (I'm not a fan of most IT depts.)
Edited by Jayman 5/8/2007 11:11 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Stacker,
I do not have any inside info but would guess that the actual tournament circuit is happy breaking even. This does not mean that people do not make money or a livelihood. I will guess that those employed make a modest income and all bills are paid. The FLW and PWT get a return on their money from magazine subscriptions, sales from boats and TV etc. But I still believe that the actual tournament is a wash after all salaries are paid.
As far as the Thursday, Friday, Saturday format..................
I'm not sure that I agree that will solve anything. As Shep observed at the PWT weigh in, it sure seems that the PWT gets more people attending than the FLW. And the FLW does a Saturday weigh in. I would also be concerned with tournament bashers coming out and complaining that the Pro's are getting in their way on a Saturday. It would be interesting to know if the FLW gets any flack. Seems like a darn if you do and a darn if you do not scenario.
It's too bad that a lot of tournaments are now in April, May and June when kids are still in school. This is more of a direct relationship with DNR rules than anything else concerning fish mortality. I would think more kids and more families could/would attend during the summer months.
I believe that the PWT and FLW, through the chamber of commerce, should raffle off a couple of prefishing days with a few well known Pro’s. The money could go to a local charity. It could spark more interest and the word out more.
I would believe that the PWT has a very large bank of data on magazine subscriptions through Primedia. They could send out an email to all subscribers in the vicinity of a tournament reminding them to come. They should have freebies at these and shoot hats, shirts and lures to the crowds. Mercury and Lund (to name a few for PWT) could do the same if they wanted to through their warranty data on customers. Send out an email saying they are sponsoring a PWT in local area.
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Location: Rhinelander | Since the FLW League is one day, it's not as likely to draw complaints as 3 and 4 day events. I think the weekday format is fine for the most part, because of the reasons listed. FLW Pro is down to 10 boats on Saturday, not an issue there.
As far as the 'making money' issue, Sunshine is correct. The Circuits are designed to promote businesses and products, and for the most part are set up to create good TV shows and magazine to accomplish those goals. Onsite promotion is minimal when compared to the other venues, and that's a cold hard fact of life.
In Fish promotes their business, FLW theirs.
The owners of In Fish own the PWT---obvious synergy there.
Who owns the FLW? Who owns Ranger Boats, a title sponsor? Obvious synergy there too, but the FLW brought in other boat sponsors (G3 Boats) to get where they are today. That should tell you something! FLW Outdoors is a big company, but I don't think the Walleye events are making a big profit.
Used to be RCL, when he owned all three boat companies...
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Location: Berlin | I will tell you what, any circuit that comes to town can just pay me $2000 and I will get more people to the weigh-in then there ever has been before or their money back. Maybe they can just give me a free entry into the tournament and we call it even. It will be the easiest money I have ever made | |
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| Steve, I never said it would be a requirement. I'm glad I peaked your interest though this is good conversation. Dennis I never heard of anyone doing anything to break even.
If the Tournament directors want to grow they need to teach their customers (anglers)Marketing 101. These anglers need to focus on where the money is. How many of them have ever considered targeting the Fortune 500 businesses, they spend Billions on Marketing every year. Don't think BP isn't happy this week!
Rich, If this is a raffle I'll do it for $1995.00. Better yet make it 4k and I'll double your attendance. I'll get BOTH of my friends to show up! This really isn't rocket science! a couple of fliers a few phone calls to book a few dozen celebrity fishermen some charity events, a few Elementary, middle and High school appearances..........the list goes on. I'm sure there are a lot of anglers that would welcome the opportunity to build their resume for their sponsors.
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | As far as the Thursday, Friday, Saturday format..................
I'm not sure that I agree that will solve anything. As Shep observed at the PWT weigh in, it sure seems that the PWT gets more people attending than the FLW. And the FLW does a Saturday weigh in. I would also be concerned with tournament bashers coming out and complaining that the Pro's are getting in their way on a Saturday. It would be interesting to know if the FLW gets any flack. Seems like a darn if you do and a darn if you do not scenario.
Steve stated that the league is a one day event, not a 3 or 4 day deal.
I think that you will need better ideas than those expressed to quantify the idea of not having the last day on saturday. Obviously the PWT is trying to grow the crowds as they have put climbing walls and dog jumps and a whole slew of family related stuff at the weigh ins to draw people. The only part they forgot was kids are in school till 315 and the weighs are designed to end by 5pm. Unless you live in the small towns where most PWT's are held, there aint now way in heck you can make the weigh in short of leaving work early and taking the kids out of school.
Why do the Merc and Otter street get such a turn out? SATURDAY AND SUNDAY. Both have things for kids to do while dad watches the weigh ins. The PWT is progressing in what they are looking to do, now just need to do it on the right days. By putting more people at the weigh ins, WILL THAT INCREASE THE FAN BASE?
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Stacker I think by getting more people at the weigh-ins it will increase the fan base. That in turn will help get more sponsorship dollars for both the tours and the fisherman.
I don't think putting the tournament back on the weekends will help, it will cause more friction betweent the weekend anglers and the pro's, both on the water and at the launches.
Last year the PWT had the super pro weigh-ins later in the day. I don't know if that helped increase turn outs at the weigh-ins or not. Steve could probably comment on that.
From what I have seen at the weigh-ins, Winneconne draws the most spectators. And that is with very little promotion. There have been some very good ideas that have come out of this post.
I for one would stay after one day of the weigh-ins to talk to people, but, I am not one of the big names. | |
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| " think that you will need better ideas than those expressed to quantify the idea of not having the last day on saturday. Obviously the PWT is trying to grow the crowds as they have put climbing walls and dog jumps and a whole slew of family related stuff at the weigh ins to draw people. The only part they forgot was kids are in school till 315 and the weighs are designed to end by 5pm. Unless you live in the small towns where most PWT's are held, there aint now way in heck you can make the weigh in short of leaving work early and taking the kids out of school."
That's unpossible!!!
It seems like a simple idea, Cabela's National Team Championship, a two day tournament that runs friday saturday. They seem to go out of their way to couple this event with some community event at the same time. I would imagine most would scream "logistics nightmare", but they pull it off. And it appears to go over big. The weigh in is cool, there's plenty for the family to do, side events, vendor displays, live music each night. It's aimed at the family atmosphere with the fishermen's family and "vacation" in mind. It's for the weekend fisherman, much like Merc. Nat's is for the weekend fisherman and thier family, and is arguably the best turn out in all of walleye fishing.
Nobody knows the financials of such an event, yet I highly doubt Cabela's does it to break even.
Why wouldn't the PWT or FLW want to borrow this "template" to develop fan base? Or is it a matter of some ego's that are too afraid that their beloved sport may appear as a side show to a circus? I don't understand it.
Having participated at a Cabela's National Team Championship and having attended Professional Golf Assoc Tournaments. Cabela's is the closest to duplicate such an environment. It is by far the biggest show I've seen yet in Walleye fishing. Thus I'll continue to support Cabela's. | |
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| Eric, Next time you're in town give me a "ring". I'd be happy to listen to any PWT pro that's willing to talk. I'll even spring for your favorite refreshment. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Sorry Shink, but cannot help to believe that it could not help a weigh ins attendance by having it on saturday instead of friday. It could certainly help the fan base.
I do agree with Jayman that the NTC show is remarkable. I have fished several and not had a problem with locals. They hype this so much that everyone in these communities want to see whats happening. When in DuBuque it was like walking into Packers stadium, it was packed, people everywhere when you walked on stage, over 2,000. I would guess. I am sure it would bring the fan base up. When in Milford I was interviewed 2 times for tv and 1 time for a newspaper. I never did see if I was in either but I can tell you that there were billboards and something on the TV every night regarding the event. In duBuque there had to be 100 plus people who came down before work on friday to watch us leave.
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | Stacker, I totally agree that it would help with attendance, having a weigh-in on one or both days of the weekend. I was commenting on the problems I would think they would have with another 120 or 150 boats out on the water on the weekend.
I haven't been to a FLW weigh-in on the Weekend, but my take on the lack of attendance is, there are only 10 guys out there fishing. And the majority of the time they are not all the big names.
As a fan of the sport, wouldn't you want to come and see all the big names you could. Let's take the PWT for example. Wouldn't you want to come see the Parson's, Kavajecz, Roach, Fairbairn, I could go on and on. If the PWT would do like the FLW, and only have 10 guys fishing the last day, that included myself and 7 other no name guys with 2 big names they wouldn't draw a big crowd either. I think that is why you don't see the big crowds at the final day weigh-ins in the FLW.
Having the weigh-ins start later in the day will draw bigger crowds, plus add sat. being the final day will bring in the people.
Just my opinion, I have been known to be wrong one other time.
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Location: Rhinelander | Jayman,
Please be very careful to structure your words so no one misunderstands your comments to be an attack or bash, that's outside of our posting permissions.
Look at your last long post, no one's 'ego' has a thing to do with the structure of the current Pro events. Have either you or Stacker been to a PWT or FLW Championship? I was at the PWT Championship in ND last year, and the crowds were in the couple thousand range. Same with the year before. A sports show, plenty of things for family and kids to do, and big crowds. Plenty of media at the weigh ins, and lots of morning coverage. Sound familiar?
The FLW 2006 Championship was held in a huge tent. Yes, they had a festival, and lots of things for the kids and family to do. The crowd was smaller, but the tent was FULL. As I said, the FLW sets the stage and program to accommodate the TV coverage shot by Lindner Media. The Show is spectacular with lots of lights, music,etc., as is the stage show at the PWT Championship. But the feature is the weigh in, all the way.
I shot images of the front page of local newspapers with full color coverage of both Championships. Local and regional TV had clips throughout the week. If all the events had the flash and play of the Championships, I'd bet that would make some folks happier, but then why would anyone refer to the Championship as 'The Show'?
Cabelas hosts that one big event per year. I bet they don't 'make money' on it, it's a HUGE promotion all year long and finally onsite for their retail stores, and advertises their commitment to competitive Walleye angling. I'm betting that event is a multiple line item on the budget sheet for advertising/promotion. | |
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| I don't believe you can compare the NTC to The Tours.
In the NTC you have 400 anglers fishing the biggest event they will probably ever fish in their life. It's such a big deal to most of the anglers that they bring their entire family along. I would bet that the majority of that crowd is made up of those family members.
Also, it is a one shot deal for Cabelas. Compare that show to the FLW or PWT Championship and I think you will find them very comparable. The only difference is that the crowd at a PWT Championship is comprised of more true walleye fans versus family members on a vacation. | |
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| Don't forget that for the most part I would bet that the majority of fans at every event is friends and family members of the competitors, Well maybe not the majority but It has to be close to 50%. I like the Wed-Fri format of the PWT although weigh ins could be an hour or two later to accomodate the fans.
How can you say that the NTC breaks even? How many of their vendors put up product or offer other incentives, how much revenue do you think is brought in because they have this event? As well the Merc Nats and Otterstreet, all make money at this! I'm sure there are some struggling as they seem to come and go but don't tell me they do it for the fun of it!
The Bass Federation I believe recieved over 2 million dollars this year to build their new circuit and have their Local/Regional events. We all know Irwin doesn't sell enough Rangers to pay for this, It would be interesting to know how much Walmart CEO Lee Scott gave him towards this.
"AT A recent retail-industry convention, Wal-Mart's boss, Lee Scott, was asked whether his firm was trying to take over the world. I don't think so, Mr Scott replied with a smile on his face. All we want to do is grow.”…
I thought this quote fits well with the topic!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Exactly, Tyee, the Cabela's NTC is a PROMOTIONAL VEHICLE. The PWT is a PROMOTIONAL VEHICLE. FLW as well.
Where's the revenue for Cabelas? Where's the revenue for ANY of the circuits?
Irwin doesn't need to 'sell enough Rangers' to invest that type of money. That's chump change for Wal Mart.
When will this sport grow enough for the big money to flow? It's already started, but they have a long way to go. It's a process, not an event. | |
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Location: Rockford MN | Wow, thank the good Lord that all I want to do is fish!
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Location: Rhinelander | Gordy, I know what you mean.... | |
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| Steve, You missed my point, these promotional vehicles for magazines and boat sales only increase the profit for these circuits and not the participants.
The participants need to go out and get the big dollars. They are the STARS sharing money! They should be using the circuits for their Promotional vehicle!
Good Luck
Tyee | |
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Location: Rhinelander | Tyee,
I sure did. And you are right. | |
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| Steve, my ego comment was not aimed at anyone in particular and I think you know that. There are ego's involved in every sport, business. etc etc. Please don't misconstrued my words to seem as such.
I agree the Cabela's is a promotional vehicle, in my opinion the NTC is for "Branding" the Cabela's name. That's all they sell is Cabela's. Not tackle, equipment, gear, or anything else. Just Cabela's and Cabela's branded clothing at their event.
I disagree that the PWT is strictly a promotional vehicle, it sure seems like an aweful lot of money changing hands to only break even at best, all to sell a couple hundred magazine subscriptions. For what, the same value as an entry fee or two on the Tour? In my opinion, something don't add up.
Since quote's seem to be "popular" on this thread, let me throw this one out there. "Follow the money" -Rush Limbaugh.
I agree, Gordy, I could sure stand to go fishing.....and yesterday was probably that day "you should of been here yesterday". | |
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Location: Rhinelander | The PWT has been exactly that---a promotional vehicle for In Fisherman, Walleye Insider, and In Fisherman TV and the sponsors of all- since it's inception. Give JK a call, he's always happy to talk over the PWT. I'm serious here, Jim is always amazed at folks guessing and postulating about the PWT and making highly debatable assumptions, when all needs be done is pick up the phone and call In Fish, ask for Jim Kalkofen.
Do the math on the money, and then get the trucks, trailers, boats, and necessary people where they need to be. Film each event using several camera crews. Edit and produce the TV program. Pay for the Championship. ETC. Nope, not a cash cow at all. The PWT does a GREAT job executing exactly what it was intended to, and has been a great positive influence on the sport. I'm sure all the circuits wish there was more income available, and that millions could be made. Think about it, if running a televised Pro Walleye Circuit was so lucrative, why has not some savvy businessman not attached at the hip to this industry simply set up a competitive circuit and raked in the money?
The original concept of the MWC---then called the Manufacturers Walleye Council-- was to promote the sponsor's wares, grow the sport, and expand the available markets for the sponsor's products as a result. OF COURSE IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY....but a different methodology than most think at first glance.
Tyee actually said it, the Pros need to capitalize on every opportunity and in fact create and build upon their own opportunities above and beyond the considerable exposure the Circuits provide, and see to it the brand- that- is- the- Pro's- Image is marketed. Since this is a pay to play sport (As Zach said, more a parallel to Golf than other Pro sports), the money to get that done has to be personal funds or Sponsor money. If the Pro simply goes fishing, the Sponsor's not getting any more out of the dollars spent than the exposure that Pro gets on the media at the events. If that Pro doesn't strongly encourage the media to point their collective lens his/her way, the return for both that Pro and his sponsors will not be as great as it could be. What Pros would you list as being successful at this? Why? How did they become household names in the Walleye trade, even off the Trails and separate from competition?
Thanks for the clarification on the ego thing. We try very hard to encourage a good debate but are very careful to keep it on topic and clean. | |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | If only my fingers would allow me to respond to the promotional vehicle comments...oh well. | |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | For the record I have attended 2 FLW Championships and 1 PWT Championships. I attended all 3 days in madison and watched from the VIP Seating, and all day from the vendor fair. I have attended PWT weigh ins since bay city michigan in 1990 when Vaughn Cornelius won and so many along the way I lose track. I have seen the weigh ins from every major circuit and local event there is. In 1987 I believe I was at the weigh ins for the MWC, it was still the manufacturers at that time, in spring valley as well as saginaw.
I think I do know a bit of what I speak of, WHY? Because I attended as a fan.
I would like to bow out of this conversation. I believe this is a no win situation over the status que. When we talk of new ways the fans would like to see things we are told that it cannot happen that way. It has never been done like that so it cannot be done. I see the wall being built.
Thanks for the conversation all, I had fun. I hope that some of what we have suggested gets to the leaders and they listen to the fans.
Denny Fox
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Location: Rhinelander | What wall, Denny? The answers you got might be what's reality now, and why, but aren't written in stone by any means. The Championships and qualifiers have come a long way in the last few years, and that's an indication of forward movement. The PWT and FLW will now get us the contestant list well in advance, and that's forward movement.
As I said earlier, pick up the phone and call JK. He's usually available, and more than willing to talk tournaments for a while. Same with Mr. Reynolds, both are very easy to get along with and accessible to the public.
An answer from you, me, Tyee, Jayman, or anyone as to why a concept or ideashould be or hasn't been undertaken YET shoudn't be intended as a personal affront or 'wall building' effort to ANYONE, usually it's just the fact of the matter at hand according to the source. It's important to set aside inaccurate concepts/misconceptions in debate like this; we've done our best toward that end working from conversations with the tournament directors and sponsors. That way, we can talk within reason as to what might actually be done to improve the Pro Walleye Fan's experience.
The key to debates like this bearing positive fruit is in everyone staying to topic and out of personal bickering. I think most of this thread has done just that.
Changes will occur, but as I believe has been said, it's a process, not an event. WalleyeFIRST added this thread to your original, and I'm glad we did, the discussion has been pretty good.
Your commentary has driven a fair portion of this discussion, stay on as the season progresses and lets see what else can be improved as a result.
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Building on Stacker's Comments about Names