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| Message Subject: Attention guides in the State of Wisconsin | |||
WalleyeFIRST |
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Member Posts: 1382 | Here is another email we just received. We are seeing alot of wierd phone calls and email over this thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Future Captains: There will be a USCG approved Captain's Training Course and Test at the following locations: Manitowoc - Apr 19, 2004 - 6-Pak Course Manitowoc - Apr 27, 2004 - Master Upgrade Milwaukee - May 1, 2004 - 6-Pak Course Please call us toll-free at 866-249-2135. Thanks. Larry Walker ------------------------------------- Captain Larry Walker, President World Wide Marine Training, Inc. P.O. Box 917, Oriental, N.C. 28571 [email protected] www.fromthehelm.com Ph: 252-249-2135 Fax: 509-561-6642 ------------------------------------- | ||
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| Rob Stratton |
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Member Posts: 171 | Antone know where these courses might be held in Michigan? Rob | ||
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| Musky Fishin Kevin |
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Member Posts: 67 Location: Sth/side Chicago | I figured I'd chime in on these two points: How can the USCG enforce this when they have no presence on the Winnebago chain? If Bago is considered "Federal" Waters then it is also considered Coast Guard waters. Also, how can the WDNR, a state agency, enforce a federal law when the state has a different (and more lenient) law? Federal laws override the state laws on federal waters. The state laws are still in affect on non coast guard waters. All of the Great Lakes and their Tributaries(possibly up to a certain point on the tributaries) are supposed to be considered Coast Guard patrolled Waters.. Many Rivers are also considered Coast Guard Patrolled waters like the Mississippi, the Illinois, the Ohio, and the missouri, along with certain lakes and other bodies of water. It sucks if the Coast Guard has been NOT enforcing this stuff and now all of a sudden decides it is going to... | ||
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| Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | Here's the deal Kevin. I truly believe that the USCG has no authority on the Winnebago system because they no longer have a presence here. There once was a USCG station in Menasha and maybe other places on the system but they were decommisioned in the 70's. Now, on to States Rights: States do not neccessarally have to follow federal laws if the states have other laws enacted. You may think of the change in DUI laws with WI. having to drop their limit to .08 but that's an entirely different subject due to federal funding for highway projects. I have personal experience with States Rights issues not connected with DUI laws or the USCG. I'm just telling it as I know it. My own opinion on this whole deal is that some young whippersnapper is trying to make himself look good. With luck on the side of the guides, cooler heads will prevail. I haven't seen an ore feighter or the like on the Winnebago system in my entire 56 years here. The USCG has a full plate. I don't think the WDNR needs to take on any more work (especially without pay from the feds). Good Luck to the guides!!!!!!!!!!! Dale Frank | ||
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| Musky Fishin Kevin |
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Member Posts: 67 Location: Sth/side Chicago | Sorry Dale, didn't mean to get you mad with my comments... Basically what I was trying to say with my post was that if the CG still has Bago listed as one of their waters then thats why they can say what you need there.. Once again, sorry if my comments seemed out of line. I do know that on CG patrolled water I have to make sure my boat meets their requirements first and foremost and that the states requirements(unless greater then the CG's) come second, usually the cg's stuff is more strict then the states... I also agree that on a inland water like Bago the CG should not be there and also that the guides should be given a timeline to get the test done rather then it being in 2 or 3 weeks... guys got stuff booked already and it will cost them money to cancell out. I mean grace period not timeline.... Edited by Musky Fishin Kevin 4/8/2004 1:57 PM | ||
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| J P |
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| The Coast Guard was on Winnebago when the federal sticker was in effect. They were out there in a Boston Whaler and they were checking boats for stickers. I personally saw them and was glad I had a sticker. | |||
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| Hafe |
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Member Posts: 378 Location: Omro,Wi. | I've been giving this some thought,and this is what I have decided so far-------> I have not seen anything about this matter on ANY OTHER MESSAGE BOARD than this one,also after guiding for over 10 years,buying a guide license every year,and having 30000 hits on my web page in 4-years, you would think I would have had some sort of notification from either the DNR or the Coast Guard about the change we are talking about here.Has anyone seen or heard of anything from AN OFFICIAL SOURCE yet? Until the OFFICIAL NOTICE comes out,in the Paper,Tv,or Mail, I personally am going to consider this a SCAM. If after being in effect(the need for coast guard license) for so many years,and not being inforced I am not going to lose any sleep over it.If I have to give up new clients,that are not referred by friends,so be it.New people are 20% of my bussiness anyway,so not much lost,another thought is that IF I have a guide license from the state,and this is really true,and I get stopped and checked,and don't have the OUPV then I can get fined up to $11000 from the coast guard.However if I DON'T have a guide license(state) and I get stopped ,and they prove I am actually guiding,then the stata can fine me $120.00 something to think about anyway.Life is going to continue here,on a normal basis(well somewhat anyway) unless it becomes OFFICIAL, in print,and not just on some message board,on the internet.My opinions,are my own,you guys make up your own minds,but I will not cancell the 18 trips I have already booked so far......hafe | ||
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| WalleyeFIRST |
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Member Posts: 1382 | Hafe, I started this thread due to an email from Scott Howell out of Sturgeon Bay Coast Guard, look at the first post. I'll post it here again for you. ============== To whom it may concern, Attached is a Marine Safety Information Bulletin (MSIB) from the Coast Guard Marine Safety Office Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which addresses federal requirements for Coast Guard Licensing of Operators of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV). The Coast Guard has received many phone calls in the past weeks relating to OUPV licensing and regulations. Our intent is to provide the public guidance on these matters that not only clarifies who is required a license, but how one obtains it. If possible, would you pass this information to the Wisconsin guides listed on your website? I will forward you a link to the USCG website posting of this MSIB once it becomes available. Regards, Scott Howell MSTC Scott Howell USCG Marine Safety Detachment 57 N. 12th Ave., Suite 108 Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235 PH: 920-743-9448 FX: 920-743-9724 ======================= BTW this was also sent to: '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]' | ||
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| Rick Larson |
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| How can the Coast Guard have jurisdiction over an inland lake? | |||
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| Hafe |
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Member Posts: 378 Location: Omro,Wi. | IF TRUE? Who is delegated to enforce the coast guard ruling on the inland lakes?When were they notified?When does this go into effect?To many unanswered questions at this time,to do anything different,in my immediate future,is the point I'm getting at....hafe | ||
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| upnorthwalleye |
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New User Posts: 3 Location: Oregon, Wis | When does this all take effect?? | ||
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| Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | I'm with Hafe regardless of what some young turk in Sturgeon Bay had to say. It all sounds like sword rattling to me. No offense to folks out there of Turkish descent. Maybe I should have stayed with whippersnapper. Kevin- no offense was taken. I just get cranky when I don't like what I perceive as too much government and not enough common sense. | ||
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| Richfish |
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Member Posts: 540 Location: Milw, WI | Knew all about this but let it lie till it rose to the top and starts biting people. It has beenstated to me buy a # of charter capts. that they have been pushing for this. Costies do patrol Bago.( aux maybe) Know people who have been stopped. Taking and passing the test a just a few of the requirments that are trying to put in place. More on that will surface, not going to start rumors here, till facts are it. On water test is only in Clev. Ohio., and maditory boat inspection on dates given at different harbors. Used to sail comp. on Lake Mich and have taken and passed almost all of these classes. Some of these may have only been required of non-motorized boats but I doubt it. 1.get ready to swim.( tread water for given amout of time) 2.get certification in CPR. 3. Steilar navagation(sextent) 4. Coruse ploting When contrated some communicable viruses, had to give up on get to the Capts. Lic. Because I could no longer give CPR to people. There for could not get the Lic. Just passing the written course dosen't mean you get a Capt. in front of your name. Edited by Richfish 4/9/2004 12:03 PM | ||
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| Snowmobileguy77 |
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Member Posts: 8 Location: NE Wisconsin | I am relitivly certin that the coast guard does have juristiction over the bego system. I worked at a place in fremont last year, and there were a few coast guard rules we had to maintain on our rental boats. | ||
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| Rob Stratton |
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Member Posts: 171 | Had to chime in on this subject. Certainly anyone who has fished a PWT event on the Great Lakes has heard the warnings from the PWT staff about accepting the amature's customary fee for fuel and bait when fishing these areas. Their stance was, "Yes it's a gray area, but in all truth someone is paying you to take them fishing" thus it would be in violation of CG laws. Thus the change in this years rules, no more money from the am's. It is a double edged sword, yes it's time consuming and expensive to procure this license ( I plan to do so this year) and you may never "need" it. But I'll bet that if any of you who guide were to be offered an ungodly amount of money to take someone to LBDN this fall you would sure like to take the customer up on their offer. Same goes with the Mississippi River, etc. It will open up alot of opportunities, it will also add a temendous amount of credibility to the folks who go ahead and get this license. Maybe we should add a $5.00 surcharge onto each outing to cover the expense? I couldn't help but wonder about the capsizing of Dwight Neimi's boat at Dunkirk last summer. If his amature paid him gas money, and if the amature sued Dwight (I doubt he did) could Dwight's insurance company refuse to cover the incident? It's a distinct possibility and something we should all be thinking about. It's a sue happy society and we all have to take every precaution from being held personally liable for anything tragic that might happen. Look on the bright side, won't it be cool for all of us to have Capt. in front of our name? Rob | ||
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| rangerpat |
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Member Posts: 182 Location: Green Bay, WI. | I didn't make the first post about a couple Charter Capt's filing reports with the C.G. But I have first hand knowledge of two of these guys talking about doing just that, while at a boat show & listening to them. I won't drop names, because of self preservation reasons, but one goes out of Marinette a lot, and the other Door Cty. I'm just glad all my trips are Charity related & I don't receive any monetary gains from the trips. I checked with the C.G. and I'm OK with what I'm doing, but if you even accept gas money they can bust you. Good Luck guys, Pat & Christy | ||
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| reelpro |
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New User Posts: 4 Location: Plano, IL | This subject comes up once in while wherever there are guides. In the 90's I guided on the Illinois River and this subject came up. I decided to go for the Six Pack License. Here are some of the requirements just for the application. 1. Proof of U. S. Citizenship 2. Red Cross Certificate for the First Aid Course 3. Red Cross Certificate for the CPR Course 4. Physical Exam completed on a Coast Guard approved form License applicants must have eyesight of at least 20/100 uncorrected in both eyes, corrected to at least 20/20 in one eye and 20/40 in the other. Must not be color blind. 5. DOCUMENTATION OF SERVICE: Sea service can be documented by "Letter of Service" prepared by employers. Or "fill in the blank forms completed by persons having direct knowledge of the applicant's service. (There is a minimum requirement for days of service on a commercial vessel. You must have 360 days of service on a commercial vessel of appropriate tonnage. 90 days within the last year.) This was most troubling to me because some Captains with a six-pack license cook the books and lie about this so they can get the license.) After your application is approved you have to take a test. It covers: 1. Rules of the Road 2. Weather 3. Aid to Navigation and Navigation. This includes stellar nav. 4. Publications 5. Ship Construction 6. Seamanship 7. Shiphandling 8. Stability 9. Machinery Operations 10. Radiotelephone 11. Firt Aid 12. Firefighting 13 Towing Operations 14. Liferafts 15. Regulations 16. Pollution Prevention This is a serious test and requires a lot of prepration. I know all this because I bought a complete study guide from Houston Marine Services. After a lot of thought I decided to quit guiding because of this. It was not because I didn't think I could pass the test. It was the Documentation of Service. I could not lie about this in good conscience. The liabilities of guiding without a Coast Guard License, or guiding with one that I lied to get were more than I was willing to risk. Just suppose some accident happened, or someone became seriously ill while in your boat. A smart lawyer with this type of information could ruin you financially for the rest of your life. I don't think I have to expound on this any more. Just imagine the questions that you will be forced to answer in court. Your insurance company could get out of paying if you don't have a license. If you lied to get the license they could also get out of paying. I loved guiding and did not want to quit. It was not worth the risk. I wish it wasn't so. Edited by reelpro 4/9/2004 3:49 PM | ||
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| permanent rookie |
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New User Posts: 2 | Walleye fans, This is not the official Coast Guard scoop, but I just got a call from a fellow who uses this site concerned about this issue. I am still in the Coast Guard reserve after several years active, and was assigned to the Sturgeon Bay office until last year, and worked on issues such as this. I am no longer assigned to a unit in this state, so please don't call and ask them about this very unofficial post. As a professional firefighter and paramedic, I am baffled by the post about diseases and CPR. You do not have to do mouth to mouth to get CPR card. More tot he point, the short answer is that the letter of the law requires folks who take passengers for hire to have a license. However, the USCG in this area does not have the staffing nor were they tasked in recent years with enforcing this rule on the river systems. I will have to follow up with Scott Howell to see if there has been a change in enforcement policy. My instinct is that the folks who were pinched for illegal guiding by both the DNR and USCG in Two Rivers recently may be pointing fingers at every legitimate guide in the state. There are many good benefits to having a license, and the folks who posted about liability concerns are very wise. I guarantee you that the USCG is much too busy with homeland security concerns right now than to be chasing every fellow who guides for bass and walleye. There are no plans to put legitimate guides out of business. However, me telling you that you don't need to worry about it because the Coast Guard does not have an active station on the Winnebago, is like a cop telling you it is o.k. to speed if you don't go more than 5 over. The law is pretty clear, but enforcement has not been a priority because there have been very little problems or citizen complaints. There are many aspects to this question, such as the fact that the Mississippi River is covered by the St. Louis office and its St. Paul subunit, not the Milwaukee/Sturgeon Bay folks who cover the Wisconsin and Winnegbago systems. I will follow up next week and reply with more information and official USCG points of contact next week. Again please note that this is just my somewhat informed opinion, not USCG policy or law. Hope this helps set your mind at ease at least for the short term. | ||
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| Jim Ordway |
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Member Posts: 538 | As I recall, last summer there was a flurry of fines for folks guiding for fees and not having the required Wisc. licensing in the area of Pt Washington up to LBDN. Of course, these same folks would most likely not possess the more stringent licences for the Great Lakes from the Feds. I do not see any conspiracy here, but simply the matter of leveling the playing field and increasing the safety for unsuspectining clients. The laws have existed and been ignored by some. It is time to get legal or get out. Re: Bago system and Wi river, I could understand the rational for a change of rules do to current situations. Take care, Jim O | ||
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| GD |
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| Permenant Rookie this is the offical scoop you are 100 percent wrong! I called both the Co and XO and it was confirmed that this is true. This next week they will be enforcing, with out warnings and you will be cited (according to them) checking at launches, the following week they will be boarding boats. Unless I was lied to by to 2 top officers, that is enough for me to not risk it! I'd love to get involved in making some changes but how? New Legislation? I also heard the same thing from a Captain complaining at the boat show how very few have there 6 pak licences ...... However if it's true I guess he had a legitimate gripe, but I would not want to take all that heat! | |||
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| Tracy |
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| I am no expert, but I thought anyone taking passengers on inland waterways for hire is required to have a USCG OUPV License. I took the clasess and received my license 2 years ago, but I operate on the Great Lakes. IMHO the class is the way to go as could not imagine succeeding on an independant study although many captains have. The classes will prepare you for the 4 sections of the exam that you will have to pass to become eligible for the license. Make sure you discuss any issues that may preclude your eligibility for this license with the owner of the class prior to enrolling. The tests are on: Rules of the Road need 90% correct to pass Deck General Knowledge need 70% correct to pass Deck Navigation need 70% correct pass Chart Plotting or Chart Navigation need 70% correct to pass There is a good bit of algebra involed in the Chart Plotting section. Once you pass the tests you can complete the application process to apply for the license. There are many more things that you will need to do before you can submit your application packet: Proof of Citizenship - Birth Certificate, and drivers license Sea Service documentation - you will need to document that you have been on the water for 365 days in the past 10 years. 1 day is 4+ Hours. Vessel Registration Records - you'll need your registration records for the years that you have documented your 365 days of sea service. First Aide and CPR - you'll need current Red Cross Certification for both. (your expense) Physical Health - you'll need a full physical. Sight, vision, hearing tests as well (your expense) 3 references - You'll need 3 people to sign carracter references and attest to your abilities for this license. Drug Testing - You will have to have your initial 5 panel drug screen performed by a DOT Certified Lab. Make sure they give you the results as you have to have the result for the aplication packet. (your expense) Finger Printing - I believe they do the cards at the REC Center now (Used to be able to get them done at your local Police Station) The applicaton fee is $200 or $250. You can download application packets at: www.uscg.mil/d9/wwm/mso/toledo/license.htm Further information on the Marine Safety Office, Approved Courses, Exam Questions, Reference materials can be found at: www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/marpers/pers.htm Hope it works out for all of you. Tracy | |||
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| Tracy |
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| Reelpro; Point 5 in your post is not accurate for the OUPV License. For this license you have to document that you have at least 360 days on the water experience on any vessel in the past 10 years, 90 of which must be in the past 3 years (size does not matter). This service does not have to be on a commercial vessel. A day consists of at least 4 hours underway (drifting, trolling is underway). This sea service can be on your boat or any one else's, however if you claim hours on another parties vessel the owner/operator has to vouch for that time. You need to average only 36 days on the water a year for 10 years to fulfil the sea service requirement. Not many serious fisherman have a problem ligetimately meeting that requirement. "After your application is approved you have to take a test. It covers:" Your application is approved after you have completed the exams successfully and have fulfilled all of the other requirements that you have listed. The USCG will not accept your application package prior to the completion of the exams and all points listed. Stellar Navigation is not covered for OUPV licensing. Tracy | |||
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| Rick Larson |
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| Now that is reasonable. Was wondering how one got the hours to qualify. | |||
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| reelpro |
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New User Posts: 4 Location: Plano, IL | I guess I should have said "after the application is approved by the instructor". Also, I thought there was a minimum size to the boat. At the time I was looking into it I was using a 16' boat with a 40 HP tiller. I seem to remember that the boat had to be about 20'. I could be wrong though. | ||
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| permanent rookie |
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New User Posts: 2 | GD, You are correct, I had it wrong about current operations. There will be some upcoming enforcement action by the USCG. I guess I should not have commented too much about operations at a unit I no longer work for. Despite threats of the hammer, as someone who used to do this type of enforcement, we usually tried warnings first. Keep in mind that the dudes from Two Rivers last year were warned for similar activities. You were wise to contact the source directly to get the official scoop. Where I did have it right was that the reason for this new emphasis on a law that has been on the books since the 1920's is that it is coming not from a self-generated USCG initiative, but from some licensed guides who complained. So if people like this idea, then they can thank their fellow guides, and if they don't like it, then they can thank the same people. As far as legislative action, don't you think it would be simpler to get a license, as complex as that is, rather than to get Congress to declare the Winnebago system an inland water? You also would have to change both the navigation and pollution laws, as both are related to navigability. There is no way to make it happen on the Wisconsin as it connects directly to the Mississippi. I can definitely see both points of view about the need to license guides. I wish everyone well with this, and hope folks can find a way to make it work without hurting their family income. For the current official scoop, contact the USCG Marine Safety Office in Milwaukee at 414 747-7155. | ||
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