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| Earlier today we received this message from the US Coast Guard out of Sturgeon Bay.
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Attached is a Marine Safety Information Bulletin (MSIB) from the Coast Guard Marine Safety Office Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which addresses federal requirements for Coast Guard Licensing of Operators of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV). The Coast Guard has received many phone calls in the past weeks relating to OUPV licensing and regulations. Our intent is to provide the public guidance on these matters that not only clarifies who is required a license, but how one obtains it.
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We have included MS word documents in this message explaining the rules, and another document with defines the navigable waters in the State of Wisconsin.
WF
Attachments
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 NAVIGABLE WATERS.doc (25KB - 574 downloads)
MSIB-02-04.doc (224KB - 430 downloads)
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Okay 
You got my attention!
If I'm reading this correctly, They are now requiring a captains license to guide onthe Lake Winnebago Chain.
If this is correct it's news to me and it's absurd!
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| The part about an $11,000 fine is a REAL attention getter ! |
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| I had heard rumblings on this last year about Bago. Not sure how they figure this, but I'm sure things will be settled in due time.
Edited by Shep 4/7/2004 4:12 PM
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Location: Omro,Wi. | The OUPV permit is a school process,which is basic knowledge,that us as guides should know anyway.I am not sure it is such a bad thing,for the serious guide.It will keep every one not licensed from cutting in on our income.Lets face it my DOG could get a guide license from the state now.The phone numbers are not answering so I'll try again tomorrow to get all the facts.Does anyone know when this is going to go into effect? Can I continue guiding on my current state permit,or do I have to stop.These are some of the questions I hope to get answered over the phone, ASAP.Check out the link,for more info on this........hafe http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/marpers/pag/oupv2.pdf |
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Location: Omro,Wi. | double posted....sorry |
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Location: Kaukauna WI | May 1-7 Milwaukee & April 19 in Manitowoc
> World Wide Marine Training
> 866-249-2135
>
I called the Coast Guard and here is a place to take the prep course I think it cost around 750.00
Michael Dutton
Edited by irishwebs 4/7/2004 5:22 PM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Hafe,
I agree with your logic but still have a problem with some of the waterways that they listed. Captains licenses are generally for the Great Lakes. I've talked to many fellow guides and charter captains who have their license and there's always a couple of things in common in the conversation. It's generally expensive, very time consuming, difficult to pass and most of it is NOT relevant to inland boating. Questions like: If the wind is blowing so many Knots in one direction and the current is at this speed and direction, how long will it take you to get to Toledo? Or, If you're the Captain of an iron ore vessel carrying 250 tons how long will it take you to stop? Those types of questions and that type of training really will not make either one of us a better guide or boater.
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | So,
What are the options? Take the class or loose income by not being able to guide on the waters listed? I'd loose the kids inheritance if I ever got caught and fined the max. What are others thinking?
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Location: Omro,Wi. | I would say there is not much of a decision to be made.If you like taking people fishing, and want them to pay for the knowledge you have given them,then there is no choice.My guiding money is spent on things like hunting,baits,etc.Without htat extra income I would have to get permission to buy a new pole(not wanting that)I will agree that this seems to be a lot more bother than it may be worth,in my opinion it is not needed for the smaller lakes we usually guide on.....hafe
Edited by Hafe 4/7/2004 6:52 PM
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Location: sheboygan,wisconsin | If I am not mistaken oupv is your six pack license, you will have to take the course or study on your own, but not to many people pass without the course. good luck |
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Location: Kaukauna WI | Dennis
You don’t have to take the class to take the test but it is in 4 to 5 parts the class is like any type of hard core training course preps you for test and takes it. When I talked to Chief Howell of the USCG he gave me a few pointers on test and discussed that even with my Navy back ground that this class would be away for better understanding of all test factors. From what I gathered if you take the class the data base of questions is cut from 60,000 to 6,000 and more subject to knowledge need.
That is why I called this company they are holding only 2 classes in Wisconsin this year on dates I listed before. The brake down of test if you wish to study on your own email me I have the paramitors of subjects and will send that information to you. I was really thinking of doing this but after talking to my lady am I probably take a class instead.
Michael Dutton
[email protected]
Edited by irishwebs 4/7/2004 6:54 PM
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Location: Omro,Wi. | You are correct geo. I looked into this,when a friend of mine in Islamorada Fla. wanted to get me involved with his guide service down there.From what I learned a year ago,it's not a easy class either.The time is what will hurt me the most,I have only 3 vacation days left,untill next December.The rest are already scheduled for other things....hafe |
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Location: sheboygan,wisconsin | the class is a week long but if you want your license take the class, by the way who is giving the class does anyone know
ps be ready to study and pay attention it is not something you can sleep through |
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Location: Oregon, Wis | I can understand Bago but still can't figure out why they would say The Wis. River at Sauk.---Looks like guiding will involve yet another investment!---------Just wish I was made of money!---Good fishing!------Ray |
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| Winnebago has always been federal waters. Years ago you had to purchase a federal sticker for your boat. If you didn't have the sticker, you could be fined. I did see the coast guard patrolling around the Point Comfort area that year that it went into affect. Enough people complained and eventually they dropped the sticker. |
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Location: Oshkosh,WI | I have spoken with a few Lieutenants from the Coast Guard Today and have a few other people returning calls to me tomorrow. Everyone that I have talked to said that there is a law written in the books that the Winebago System is a waterway that needs a license, however, since the locks are all closed and there is no way to travel into the great lakes they have not enforced this for many years. The coast guard has more or less handed over the system to the State DNR. Both Lieutenats I spoke with told me that they would leave commercial fisherman alone as long as we were doing things on a safe manner. I talked with one person down at the Marine Safety Office and they were going to get back to me tomorrow. There has always been a law written in but has not been enforced for many years. How does this seem to come up every year just as the open water season gets under way? I recieved a phone call from someone today that refrained from telling me who he was or where he got my name. He was inquiring about my guide service and out of the blue asked about a captains license. NEVER EVER has anyone asked this before to me or any of the other guides that I know of. As I proceeded to ask some questions, and tell him what I knew, I got the hint that the phone call was more of a threat than anything and the guy just wanted to start some comotion amongst local guides. There has never been a problem until now, why all of a sudden. Also, if they are going to enforce this they should have given us a warning rather than just shutting a bunch of people down on the spot. For some of us this is our main source of income. If we all of a sudden need to take a test that costs a couple thousand dollars what are we going to do? It takes a week, costs about 1500, and not only that the classes are done until next spring. The only other class that is being held is down in Florida. I will find out more tonight and see if I can get a statement from the Coast Guard.
Troy |
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| The bottom line is The Fox river to Winnebago, Lake Winnebago, Butte des Morts, Winneconne, Lake Poygan, the Fox River to Princeton and the Wolf up to and including Shawano are considered federal waters, Western Rivers. It doesn't matter that the lock is closed. To get it changed would take a act of congress. The Wisconsin River to the head waters were considered federal untill an act of congress got that changed and now ends at the du Sac at the dam. Here is the way it is if you are for hire out of a vessel on these waters, you have to have an OUPV. If you don't and have an accident you will not be covered by your insurance because you are unlawful. No insurance covers you when you an not legal, and the insurance companies hate to pay. So now you are liable for all damages. They have not inforced in the past except fpr the Pioneer Princeds and Fin and Feather, they have been inspected every year. But, since 9-11 the USCG has been much more active. There is a very few that have licences when the Coast Guard did a bit of a sting operation about ten years ago. It is up to you if you want to take the chance. They will take your boat in liu of the fine. The test is hard, very hard. The chance of passing without going through the course is about zero. If enough people talk to the USCG they may be willing to do something called a limited scope license to cover a very specific course. I have talk to the Sturgeon Bay office about it and they are working on it. Nothing that the USCG does is fast, so nothing is going to happen in the very near future, especially if nobody is pushing for it. |
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| I also made a few calls and spoke the Coast Guard, if you take the chance and decide to book trips and get caught they will not warn you. You will be citied, and there is a good possibility you will loose your guides licence. I've just recently canceled a few trips, it's not worth it! It's also a potential heft fine..11,000 bucks and loss of guides Lic, plus a bad reputation not for me!
Remeber you can still guide from shore or from the ice, not in a vessel/ boat if you do not have the Capatins Lic. I was told they will be working in conjunction with the DNR and the DNR will also be checking???
I'm going to take the corse in milwaukee at the end of the month!
It's not worth it to me!!!! |
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| I know of at least two charter captain types, they guide on Bago as well as Green Bay and the Fox River in Green bay and Bay de Noc, that have been pushing this issue with the coast guard for years. It seems, one of them especially, has a real big problem with guides guiding on HIS waters without a charter captains license. He made a few statements at a sport show a year or so back that this was going to happen to us guides that were too cheap to get a charter captains license. Maybe it has something to do with this, maybe it doesnt, but it seems awfully funny dont it? |
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| I See a trap here, It must of been layed out a few years back but never set. So why did all you guides just let a trap sit there unset. Ever think that maybe someday the Government will set it???? You people..All people have to get wise here. This whole Government is dealing this way....Pass a law....let the anger settle down before they start to enforce it. (5-10 yrs.). Then they get whoever they want to pick out of the crowd. PEOPLE WAKE UP THIS GOVERNMENT ISN'T YOURS. |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I'm not a guide but I do have a question. How can the USCG enforce this when they have no presence on the Winnebago chain? Also, how can the WDNR, a state agency, enforce a federal law when the state has a different (and more lenient) law? I remember back a few years ago about the federal boat registration stickers that were to be required. It was ruled that if we couldn't reach the Great Lakes by water we didn't need the stickers. The locks are still closed. There is also the question of "States Rights". The Feds and the States don't always cooperate with each other due to constitutional issues.
I sure hope this is resolved favorably for our guides on the system. It's a tough job to make a buck at and would also deprive visitors of fishing opportunities on our waters.
Dale Frank |
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Location: Kaukauna WI | After much thought last night and talking to my lady. We discussed the point of how this came to be and after reviewing some of the post here I believe the following is possible reason for this to come to light now.
1) For a long time I heard that Captains up on Bay of Green Bay and Bay De Noc have getting tired of losing business to guys who go up to Door county and for a day and take a charter for a low rate.
2) With increase of various boating accidents with guys & gals over last years a overall increase in licensing and training is starting to be enforced on all waters that Coast Guard is responsible for even if locks are filled in.
3) In this post 9/11 world and events now happening in Wisconsin (sporting, Festivals and Presidential & Congressional year elections) I think we see allot of Laws and politics put into action to say HEY WE ARE DOING OUR JOB in world of public opinion.
I for one am trying to arrange the class with my schedule for not that I wish to guide full time but wish to have better skills when traveling waters.
I personal not sure if I need a guide license for what I do. I take out sponsors and their customers as part of my programs. I have with each of them. I look at it as a point of being safe and just in case I do ever have a trip come up.
Michael Dutton
Edited by irishwebs 4/8/2004 9:02 AM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Dale,
Thanks for the voice of reason! Your concern is appreciated. There are many of us who will be hurt financially by this.
If it were true about some people with Captains licenses making a stink ( I still doubt this because it comes from someone unwilling to post their name) the whole situation will back fire on them.............trust me!!!!
I have always played by the rules and will continue to. I have never guided on the Fox, Green Bay or LBDN even though I'm asked by clients to do so every single year. Rest assured that those captains who charter these waters will have additional competition in the future if those of us guiding on Bago need a captains license. IT'll help pay the expences of taking the test.
Short sighted logic never prevails |
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| That's exactly what I was thinking Dennis, it will actually increase the competition for those guides, not decrease, so that whole argument does not make alot of sense to me. |
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| Here is another email we just received. We are seeing alot of wierd phone calls and email over this thing.
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Dear Future Captains:
There will be a USCG approved Captain's Training Course and Test at the following locations:
Manitowoc - Apr 19, 2004 - 6-Pak Course
Manitowoc - Apr 27, 2004 - Master Upgrade
Milwaukee - May 1, 2004 - 6-Pak Course
Please call us toll-free at 866-249-2135. Thanks.
Larry Walker
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Captain Larry Walker, President
World Wide Marine Training, Inc.
P.O. Box 917, Oriental, N.C. 28571
[email protected]
www.fromthehelm.com
Ph: 252-249-2135
Fax: 509-561-6642
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| Antone know where these courses might be held in Michigan?
Rob |
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Location: Sth/side Chicago | I figured I'd chime in on these two points: How can the USCG enforce this when they have no presence on the Winnebago chain? If Bago is considered "Federal" Waters then it is also considered Coast Guard waters.
Also, how can the WDNR, a state agency, enforce a federal law when the state has a different (and more lenient) law? Federal laws override the state laws on federal waters. The state laws are still in affect on non coast guard waters.
All of the Great Lakes and their Tributaries(possibly up to a certain point on the tributaries) are supposed to be considered Coast Guard patrolled Waters.. Many Rivers are also considered Coast Guard Patrolled waters like the Mississippi, the Illinois, the Ohio, and the missouri, along with certain lakes and other bodies of water. It sucks if the Coast Guard has been NOT enforcing this stuff and now all of a sudden decides it is going to... |
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Location: Neenah, WI | Here's the deal Kevin. I truly believe that the USCG has no authority on the Winnebago system because they no longer have a presence here. There once was a USCG station in Menasha and maybe other places on the system but they were decommisioned in the 70's.
Now, on to States Rights:
States do not neccessarally have to follow federal laws if the states have other laws enacted. You may think of the change in DUI laws with WI. having to drop their limit to .08 but that's an entirely different subject due to federal funding for highway projects.
I have personal experience with States Rights issues not connected with DUI laws or the USCG. I'm just telling it as I know it. My own opinion on this whole deal is that some young whippersnapper is trying to make himself look good. With luck on the side of the guides, cooler heads will prevail.
I haven't seen an ore feighter or the like on the Winnebago system in my entire 56 years here. The USCG has a full plate. I don't think the WDNR needs to take on any more work (especially without pay from the feds).
Good Luck to the guides!!!!!!!!!!!
Dale Frank |
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Location: Sth/side Chicago | Sorry Dale, didn't mean to get you mad with my comments... Basically what I was trying to say with my post was that if the CG still has Bago listed as one of their waters then thats why they can say what you need there.. Once again, sorry if my comments seemed out of line. I do know that on CG patrolled water I have to make sure my boat meets their requirements first and foremost and that the states requirements(unless greater then the CG's) come second, usually the cg's stuff is more strict then the states... I also agree that on a inland water like Bago the CG should not be there and also that the guides should be given a timeline to get the test done rather then it being in 2 or 3 weeks... guys got stuff booked already and it will cost them money to cancell out. I mean grace period not timeline....
Edited by Musky Fishin Kevin 4/8/2004 1:57 PM
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| The Coast Guard was on Winnebago when the federal sticker was in effect. They were out there in a Boston Whaler and they were checking boats for stickers. I personally saw them and was glad I had a sticker. |
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Location: Omro,Wi. | I've been giving this some thought,and this is what I have decided so far-------> I have not seen anything about this matter on ANY OTHER MESSAGE BOARD than this one,also after guiding for over 10 years,buying a guide license every year,and having 30000 hits on my web page in 4-years, you would think I would have had some sort of notification from either the DNR or the Coast Guard about the change we are talking about here.Has anyone seen or heard of anything from AN OFFICIAL SOURCE yet? Until the OFFICIAL NOTICE comes out,in the Paper,Tv,or Mail, I personally am going to consider this a SCAM. If after being in effect(the need for coast guard license) for so many years,and not being inforced I am not going to lose any sleep over it.If I have to give up new clients,that are not referred by friends,so be it.New people are 20% of my bussiness anyway,so not much lost,another thought is that IF I have a guide license from the state,and this is really true,and I get stopped and checked,and don't have the OUPV then I can get fined up to $11000 from the coast guard.However if I DON'T have a guide license(state) and I get stopped ,and they prove I am actually guiding,then the stata can fine me $120.00 something to think about anyway.Life is going to continue here,on a normal basis(well somewhat anyway) unless it becomes OFFICIAL, in print,and not just on some message board,on the internet.My opinions,are my own,you guys make up your own minds,but I will not cancell the 18 trips I have already booked so far......hafe |
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| Hafe, I started this thread due to an email from Scott Howell out of Sturgeon Bay Coast Guard, look at the first post. I'll post it here again for you.
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To whom it may concern,
Attached is a Marine Safety Information Bulletin (MSIB) from the Coast Guard Marine Safety Office Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which addresses federal requirements for Coast Guard Licensing of Operators of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV). The Coast Guard has received many phone calls in the past weeks relating to OUPV licensing and regulations. Our intent is to provide the public guidance on these matters that not only clarifies who is required a license, but how one obtains it. If possible, would you pass this information to the Wisconsin guides listed on your website? I will forward you a link to the USCG website posting of this MSIB once it becomes available.
Regards,
Scott Howell
MSTC Scott Howell
USCG Marine Safety Detachment
57 N. 12th Ave., Suite 108
Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235
PH: 920-743-9448
FX: 920-743-9724
=======================
BTW this was also sent to: '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'; '[email protected]' |
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How can the Coast Guard have jurisdiction over an inland lake? |
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Location: Omro,Wi. | IF TRUE? Who is delegated to enforce the coast guard ruling on the inland lakes?When were they notified?When does this go into effect?To many unanswered questions at this time,to do anything different,in my immediate future,is the point I'm getting at....hafe |
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Location: Oregon, Wis | When does this all take effect?? |
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Location: Neenah, WI | I'm with Hafe regardless of what some young turk in Sturgeon Bay had to say. It all sounds like sword rattling to me. No offense to folks out there of Turkish descent. Maybe I should have stayed with whippersnapper.
Kevin- no offense was taken. I just get cranky when I don't like what I perceive as too much government and not enough common sense. |
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Location: Milw, WI | Knew all about this but let it lie till it rose to the top and starts biting people.
It has beenstated to me buy a # of charter capts. that they have been pushing for this.
Costies do patrol Bago.( aux maybe)
Know people who have been stopped.
Taking and passing the test a just a few of the requirments that are trying to put in place.
More on that will surface, not going to start rumors here, till facts are it.
On water test is only in Clev. Ohio., and maditory boat inspection on dates given at different harbors.
Used to sail comp. on Lake Mich and have taken and passed almost all of these classes.
Some of these may have only been required of non-motorized boats but I doubt it.
1.get ready to swim.( tread water for given amout of time)
2.get certification in CPR.
3. Steilar navagation(sextent)
4. Coruse ploting
When contrated some communicable viruses, had to give up on get to the Capts. Lic.
Because I could no longer give CPR to people.
There for could not get the Lic.
Just passing the written course dosen't mean you get a Capt. in front of your name.
Edited by Richfish 4/9/2004 12:03 PM
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Location: NE Wisconsin | I am relitivly certin that the coast guard does have juristiction over the bego system. I worked at a place in fremont last year, and there were a few coast guard rules we had to maintain on our rental boats. |
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| Had to chime in on this subject. Certainly anyone who has fished a PWT event on the Great Lakes has heard the warnings from the PWT staff about accepting the amature's customary fee for fuel and bait when fishing these areas. Their stance was, "Yes it's a gray area, but in all truth someone is paying you to take them fishing" thus it would be in violation of CG laws. Thus the change in this years rules, no more money from the am's.
It is a double edged sword, yes it's time consuming and expensive to procure this license ( I plan to do so this year) and you may never "need" it. But I'll bet that if any of you who guide were to be offered an ungodly amount of money to take someone to LBDN this fall you would sure like to take the customer up on their offer. Same goes with the Mississippi River, etc. It will open up alot of opportunities, it will also add a temendous amount of credibility to the folks who go ahead and get this license. Maybe we should add a $5.00 surcharge onto each outing to cover the expense?
I couldn't help but wonder about the capsizing of Dwight Neimi's boat at Dunkirk last summer. If his amature paid him gas money, and if the amature sued Dwight (I doubt he did) could Dwight's insurance company refuse to cover the incident? It's a distinct possibility and something we should all be thinking about. It's a sue happy society and we all have to take every precaution from being held personally liable for anything tragic that might happen.
Look on the bright side, won't it be cool for all of us to have Capt. in front of our name?
Rob |
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Location: Green Bay, WI. | I didn't make the first post about a couple Charter Capt's filing reports with the C.G. But I have first hand knowledge of two of these guys talking about doing just that, while at a boat show & listening to them. I won't drop names, because of self preservation reasons, but one goes out of Marinette a lot, and the other Door Cty.
I'm just glad all my trips are Charity related & I don't receive any monetary gains from the trips. I checked with the C.G. and I'm OK with what I'm doing, but if you even accept gas money they can bust you. Good Luck guys, Pat & Christy |
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Location: Plano, IL | This subject comes up once in while wherever there are guides.
In the 90's I guided on the Illinois River and this subject
came up. I decided to go for the Six Pack License. Here are
some of the requirements just for the application.
1. Proof of U. S. Citizenship
2. Red Cross Certificate for the First Aid Course
3. Red Cross Certificate for the CPR Course
4. Physical Exam completed on a Coast Guard approved form
License applicants must have eyesight of at least 20/100
uncorrected in both eyes, corrected to at least 20/20 in
one eye and 20/40 in the other. Must not be color blind.
5. DOCUMENTATION OF SERVICE: Sea service can be documented by
"Letter of Service" prepared by employers. Or "fill in the
blank forms completed by persons having direct knowledge of
the applicant's service.
(There is a minimum requirement for days of service on a
commercial vessel. You must have 360 days of service on
a commercial vessel of appropriate tonnage. 90 days within
the last year.) This was most
troubling to me because some Captains with a six-pack
license cook the books and
lie about this so they can get the license.)
After your application is approved you have to take a test.
It covers:
1. Rules of the Road
2. Weather
3. Aid to Navigation and Navigation. This includes stellar nav.
4. Publications
5. Ship Construction
6. Seamanship
7. Shiphandling
8. Stability
9. Machinery Operations
10. Radiotelephone
11. Firt Aid
12. Firefighting
13 Towing Operations
14. Liferafts
15. Regulations
16. Pollution Prevention
This is a serious test and requires a lot of prepration. I know all this
because I bought a complete study guide from Houston Marine Services.
After a lot of thought I decided to quit guiding because of this.
It was not because I didn't think I could pass the test. It was the
Documentation of Service. I could not lie about this in good conscience.
The liabilities of guiding without a Coast Guard License, or guiding
with one that I lied to get were more than I was willing to risk.
Just suppose some accident happened, or someone became seriously ill
while in your boat. A smart lawyer with this type of information
could ruin you financially for the rest of your life. I don't think
I have to expound on this any more. Just imagine the questions that
you will be forced to answer in court.
Your insurance company could get out of paying if you don't have a
license. If you lied to get the license they could also get out of
paying.
I loved guiding and did not want to quit. It was not worth the risk.
I wish it wasn't so.
Edited by reelpro 4/9/2004 3:49 PM
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| Walleye fans,
This is not the official Coast Guard scoop, but I just got a call from a fellow who uses this site concerned about this issue. I am still in the Coast Guard reserve after several years active, and was assigned to the Sturgeon Bay office until last year, and worked on issues such as this. I am no longer assigned to a unit in this state, so please don't call and ask them about this very unofficial post. As a professional firefighter and paramedic, I am baffled by the post about diseases and CPR. You do not have to do mouth to mouth to get CPR card. More tot he point, the short answer is that the letter of the law requires folks who take passengers for hire to have a license. However, the USCG in this area does not have the staffing nor were they tasked in recent years with enforcing this rule on the river systems. I will have to follow up with Scott Howell to see if there has been a change in enforcement policy. My instinct is that the folks who were pinched for illegal guiding by both the DNR and USCG in Two Rivers recently may be pointing fingers at every legitimate guide in the state. There are many good benefits to having a license, and the folks who posted about liability concerns are very wise. I guarantee you that the USCG is much too busy with homeland security concerns right now than to be chasing every fellow who guides for bass and walleye. There are no plans to put legitimate guides out of business. However, me telling you that you don't need to worry about it because the Coast Guard does not have an active station on the Winnebago, is like a cop telling you it is o.k. to speed if you don't go more than 5 over. The law is pretty clear, but enforcement has not been a priority because there have been very little problems or citizen complaints. There are many aspects to this question, such as the fact that the Mississippi River is covered by the St. Louis office and its St. Paul subunit, not the Milwaukee/Sturgeon Bay folks who cover the Wisconsin and Winnegbago systems. I will follow up next week and reply with more information and official USCG points of contact next week. Again please note that this is just my somewhat informed opinion, not USCG policy or law. Hope this helps set your mind at ease at least for the short term. |
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Member
Posts: 538
| As I recall, last summer there was a flurry of fines for folks guiding for fees and not having the required Wisc. licensing in the area of Pt Washington up to LBDN. Of course, these same folks would most likely not possess the more stringent licences for the Great Lakes from the Feds. I do not see any conspiracy here, but simply the matter of leveling the playing field and increasing the safety for unsuspectining clients. The laws have existed and been ignored by some. It is time to get legal or get out. Re: Bago system and Wi river, I could understand the rational for a change of rules do to current situations.
Take care,
Jim O |
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| Permenant Rookie this is the offical scoop you are 100 percent wrong! I called both the Co and XO and it was confirmed that this is true. This next week they will be enforcing, with out warnings and you will be cited (according to them) checking at launches, the following week they will be boarding boats.
Unless I was lied to by to 2 top officers, that is enough for me to not risk it!
I'd love to get involved in making some changes but how? New Legislation?
I also heard the same thing from a Captain complaining at the boat show how very few have there 6 pak licences ......
However if it's true I guess he had a legitimate gripe, but I would not want to take all that heat! |
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| I am no expert, but I thought anyone taking passengers on inland waterways for hire is required to have a USCG OUPV License. I took the clasess and received my license 2 years ago, but I operate on the Great Lakes. IMHO the class is the way to go as could not imagine succeeding on an independant study although many captains have. The classes will prepare you for the 4 sections of the exam that you will have to pass to become eligible for the license. Make sure you discuss any issues that may preclude your eligibility for this license with the owner of the class prior to enrolling.
The tests are on:
Rules of the Road need 90% correct to pass
Deck General Knowledge need 70% correct to pass
Deck Navigation need 70% correct pass
Chart Plotting or Chart Navigation need 70% correct to pass
There is a good bit of algebra involed in the Chart Plotting section.
Once you pass the tests you can complete the application process to apply for the license. There are many more things that you will need to do before you can submit your application packet:
Proof of Citizenship - Birth Certificate, and drivers license
Sea Service documentation - you will need to document that you have been on the water for 365 days in the past 10 years. 1 day is 4+ Hours.
Vessel Registration Records - you'll need your registration records for the years that you have documented your 365 days of sea service.
First Aide and CPR - you'll need current Red Cross Certification for both. (your expense)
Physical Health - you'll need a full physical. Sight, vision, hearing tests as well (your expense)
3 references - You'll need 3 people to sign carracter references and attest to your abilities for this license.
Drug Testing - You will have to have your initial 5 panel drug screen performed by a DOT Certified Lab. Make sure they give you the results as you have to have the result for the aplication packet. (your expense)
Finger Printing - I believe they do the cards at the REC Center now (Used to be able to get them done at your local Police Station)
The applicaton fee is $200 or $250.
You can download application packets at: www.uscg.mil/d9/wwm/mso/toledo/license.htm
Further information on the Marine Safety Office, Approved Courses, Exam Questions, Reference materials can be found at: www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/marpers/pers.htm
Hope it works out for all of you.
Tracy
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| Reelpro;
Point 5 in your post is not accurate for the OUPV License. For this license you have to document that you have at least 360 days on the water experience on any vessel in the past 10 years, 90 of which must be in the past 3 years (size does not matter). This service does not have to be on a commercial vessel. A day consists of at least 4 hours underway (drifting, trolling is underway). This sea service can be on your boat or any one else's, however if you claim hours on another parties vessel the owner/operator has to vouch for that time.
You need to average only 36 days on the water a year for 10 years to fulfil the sea service requirement. Not many serious fisherman have a problem ligetimately meeting that requirement.
"After your application is approved you have to take a test.
It covers:"
Your application is approved after you have completed the exams successfully and have fulfilled all of the other requirements that you have listed. The USCG will not accept your application package prior to the completion of the exams and all points listed.
Stellar Navigation is not covered for OUPV licensing.
Tracy
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Now that is reasonable. Was wondering how one got the hours to qualify. |
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New User
Posts: 4
Location: Plano, IL | I guess I should have said "after the application is approved by the instructor".
Also, I thought there was a minimum size to the boat. At the time I was looking into it
I was using a 16' boat with a 40 HP tiller. I seem to remember that the boat had to be about 20'. I could be wrong though. |
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New User
Posts: 2
| GD,
You are correct, I had it wrong about current operations. There will be some upcoming enforcement action by the USCG. I guess I should not have commented too much about operations at a unit I no longer work for. Despite threats of the hammer, as someone who used to do this type of enforcement, we usually tried warnings first. Keep in mind that the dudes from Two Rivers last year were warned for similar activities. You were wise to contact the source directly to get the official scoop. Where I did have it right was that the reason for this new emphasis on a law that has been on the books since the 1920's is that it is coming not from a self-generated USCG initiative, but from some licensed guides who complained. So if people like this idea, then they can thank their fellow guides, and if they don't like it, then they can thank the same people. As far as legislative action, don't you think it would be simpler to get a license, as complex as that is, rather than to get Congress to declare the Winnebago system an inland water? You also would have to change both the navigation and pollution laws, as both are related to navigability. There is no way to make it happen on the Wisconsin as it connects directly to the Mississippi. I can definitely see both points of view about the need to license guides. I wish everyone well with this, and hope folks can find a way to make it work without hurting their family income. For the current official scoop, contact the USCG Marine Safety Office in Milwaukee at 414 747-7155. |
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Member
Posts: 24
Location: Winneconne, WI | I just received some information from the Village President in Winneconne...Years ago when they closed the locks on the Fox River by Green Bay the feds wanted to make a tax on all boats on the Federal Waterway, which at that time included the Lake Winnebago Chain. People complained at which time Congressman Tom Petri took the Winnebago Chain, up from the locks in Green Bay, off the Federal Navigable Water list. The Coast Guard stated to me they got a new Captain in the Milwaukee Office and he is gung-ho!!! In speaking with the Green Bay office they state the Winnebago waterway is not federal water and didn't seem to know what I was talking about. I sent a e-mail to Tom Petri about this and am waiting for his reply. |
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Your barking up the right tree by contacting Petri. Good job and let us know his reply! |
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Member
Posts: 24
Location: Winneconne, WI | As soon as I receive notice I will post---I also sent a letter to State Sen Ellis and US Senator Feingold---I will forward a copy of this letter to anyone interested----just need your e-mail address---mine is [email protected] |
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| Sauger, Just finished reading something about the Winnebago system being under Federal Jurisdiction. It came up in A discussion about Federal and State PFD laws and It was said that the coastguard is the only authority that can inforce the Federal PFD laws on winnebago |
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| I think everyone is missing the most important point, the issue of navigability. Having spent a fair amount of time in state and county government dealing with this issue. I believe I can shed some light on the subject. If you will notice the coast guard or federal authority extends to the upstream portion of tributaries to the great lakes and/or the Mississippi river, which are considered navigable. This is usually the first dam encountered, unless there is a lock at that dam. With regard to the Fox River there is a lock and dam system extending all the way up to the Winnebago system. The problem is it is not operational and hasn't been for quite a few years. How does that affect Federal jurisdiction? Good question, there have been rumblings about restoring these locks to again allow navigation from lake Michigan to the Winnebago system. My thoughts are it will never happen because of the expense to restore and operate the lock system, as well as the threat of exotics from the great lakes. In either case I am quite sure this is why the Winnebago system is still on the federal list of navigable waters. That being said, could you get a ticket for taking clients out on a fishing trip on the Winnebago system without a captain’s license? I would say yes. Would you have a reasonably good court case to defend yourself? I would again say yes. The federal government has not put any effort into maintaining the lock and dam system. In fact I would ask this question, if the federal government has not maintained the lock system for 20 years or more could the State of Wisconsin claim adverse possession on behalf of the citizens, of which the State acts as a trustee, for all inland navigable waters? I also believe, but could be mistaken, the jurisdiction for the Winnebago system would fall under the Green Bay Coast Guard station, if this is true are they able to navigate to the Winnebago system? Just some food for thought. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Mark,
Thanks for the reply. I suppose that the exotics issue alone would slow or stop any desires to lock through, but is there ANY possibility that could happen again? I am pretty sure the State would have no desire to spend the necessary funds, and the Feds have already announced their opinion by doing nothing.
Interesting issue. I am also aware that the Feds are trying to hand over control of many issues to the local or state level, is that a trend with the waterways? |
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Member
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Location: Winneconne, WI | I have received word back from Petri, Feingold, Kohl, and Ellis. Feingold pretty much gave me the run around and said he is looking in to it---Petri called and also sent a letter and said he is looking into it---Kohl---said he was looking into it and Ellis stated that I brought up some valid points and he said he personally contacted Petri in this matter |
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Member
Posts: 1406
| Typical political B.S. Never get a straight answer! Did you expect anything more? I wonder what would happen if a citation were issued? How much do you think it would cost for your lawyer and how long do you think it would take to fight? What if there was an accident and your insurance company refused to pay in a cival suit? Could the fines and legal expenses put the average guide out of business? Hummmmm....I don't think it's worth the risk. We need a big club with enough clout to get this thing resolved, because quite frankly I don't think it's worth the risk! Somebody call B.A.S.S or the FLW they have plenty of clout in WI Gov't! I don't think I would be much help with ya though!
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 6/7/2004 9:18 PM
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Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | A good friend of mine who is a charter captain in Racine recently attended the yearly meeting with the coast guard. With no prodding from the audience, the coast guard brought up the Winnebago situation and said that there will be coast guard presence throughout the summer and that there would probably be sting operations going on similar to what has been done on Lake Michigan. My understanding is that they call area guides/captains and book a date. When they are out on the water, they pull out the badges and write the citation.
I have had to cancel and/or turn down guide trips on bago for this summer and will continue to do so until I get the necessary training and paperwork completed.
I know that this has been on the books for sometime but I wish they would have given us a friendly timeframe to complete this prior to the enforcement. This hurts financially.
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| A friendly timeframe to continue breaking the law? Good one. |
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| Not a "friendly time frame to break the law" at all... It was almsot universally understood that the interpretation was that Winnebago was not subject to Coast Guard rules... After some "people" changes in the Coast Guard they revisited the situation and decided that they were responsible and were therefore going to enforce the rules... It is a bit facetious to say it is "navigable" since the locks don't work... And, the feds don't/won't fix the locks (and shouldn't)....
I have no dog in this fight since I am not a guide but I don't like to see honest people hammered or bashed by a post that is at best misguided or ignorant of the circumstances. |
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| First, the Department of Homeland Security redefined all listed Federal waterways in an effort to know the entire scope of thier responsability. Second, after talking to Congresman's Greens office I found that by agreement the local communities who bought the lock and dam system can never resore all the locks and must keep one closed as a lampey barrier. Third, future plans are for a boat lift to complete a navigable waterway.
After talking with people and business owners in Fremont, Winneocnne and New London, we hope to have a meeting to discuss a plan to have a portion of the waterway removed from the list of Federal waters. It can only be done with the help of our congressman and it won't happen over night.
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| HaHa, Almost universally understood! Uh if it's listed as a federal waterway you best have the correct documentation or you are operating illegally no matter how almost universally misinformed you may be. Ignorance of the circumstance and what is the law won't hold water in court. There's your ignorance. |
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Member
Posts: 188
Location: Westland, Mich. | hey, okay. troll somewhere else; this is a serious issue for those with a vested interest in making a living on the waters in question. You would be stupid or naive to think that a reputable guide would go out of his way to break the law. On the other hand, when a new law or enforcement policy goes into effect there is always a pre-established date before legal action will be taken. That’s all anyone here wants, a chance to get training and certification in a reasonable time frame before enforcement begins. How ‘bout you log in before you spout off again? Or maybe a moderator can check your ip address and see who you really are? |
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| It's not a new law, an oupv as a minimum is required of any person operating a boat for hire on waters that fall under federal jurisdiction. It is a serious issue I would agree, it is also a serious issue with those guides who do have proper documentation as well as those who don't. |
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Member
Posts: 378
Location: Omro,Wi. | I'll would like to give you my own opinion here,on this subject,and hope nobody gets upset.I've been guiding on this system for 10 years now,and have made many new,and good friends,and taught many novices the ropes.I myself have no complaints about having to get a (OUPV) to continue doing so,but the timing,and lack of information is a little anoying.I do believe that some form off notice or grace period would have sat better with us all.Having to cancel someones trip,that may have been a big part of their vacation,is not professional,or received well by some off my newer clients.Although most new clients have agreed to wait until I have my Documentation in order.I will still take the Regulars,that have been coming for years,and they understand the circumstances.I just hope it all comes togeather for all the guides in the area,and for the sake of the people with NO Boats,and the same desire we have,toward the outdoors,may it be soon....hafe |
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|  That is a nice walleye |
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Member
Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | And we brought up a two year old post because??????????????????????? |
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Member
Posts: 27
| I guess I'm not quite clear on why we are so worried about the issue in the first place. If you want to guide on Winnebago, get a captain's liscense. Going through the training would likely teach you many important traits in both safety for your client and knowledge of the laws which could prevent a possible ticket. I think it is important that the state of Wisconsin makes liscensed guides a quailfied position with minumum requirements of proper insurance and cpr training. This is a business and I am not familiar with any business in America where you can get all of your proper paperwork done for $40 and five minutes. At first thoughts of being a guide are "making money fishing". It is not this way. I've guided with regularity since I was 18 and understand that this is a business where you potentially put people's health at risk. I think we need to take it seriously. Also, if all guides on Winnebago are trained captains, don't you think the comfort level of the client booking a trip would be improved? It is also going to weed out some of the one day a year guides, ensuring that the average Winnebago guide is well equipped, knowledgeable and professional making the client's experience better and improving the image of the area. |
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