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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Joel "Doc" Kunz - 12/28/2007 7:03 PM
Greg, with all respect,
PART of the reason for the reduced bag limit is the fish being targeted and kept during the event AND public opinion over tournament fishing. Obviously the bigger females are what usually win an event right? By study, tournaments generally weigh a bigger percentage of these fish then the 5 frying pan favorites you are trying to work in to your rant. If you and your partner want to take 10 keepers for the frying pan on Friday, enjoy yourself and hope that you didn't need any of those fish on Saturday I guess. Obviously if you're going to fish the tournament on Saturday, hope you get 3 nice ones to weigh in that are above eater size and be glad to be fishing a tournament at all. Where do you get the "second class citizen" stuff. You seem to think that any regulations as to tournaments makes you one. Smaller bag limits could actually create closer results and a better chance for anyone to win AND from what we WERE getting as a suggested rule, is far better then no tournaments at all during July and August. As far as public opinion, it IS important to have it on your side in such manners as tournament fishing. Especially when there are LARGE groups like PETA with money who are against such things and news organizations willing to publicize their cause. If reduced bag limits during these times helps to reduce dead fish wasted in the pursuit of fame and personal glory, then it should help to improve part of that public image. That, in the long run, should be good for fishing.
Doc,
why oh why do you have to make such comments. Quote: If reduced bags during these times helps to reduce dead fish wasted.... Come on man, what do you think tourneys do with dead fish, throw them down a disposal. what exactly do you mean by this?
....in pursuit of fame and personal glory..... again, explain.
Unless I am reading this wrong, wowee....you just made a hell of a stand against the tournament fisherman.
I think we should attack guides next. They take from MY resource without much of a chance of returning anything to the fisheree. Fish or monies. I would guess these guys would be the original .......in pursuit of fame and personal glory.... |
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Member
Posts: 794
Location: Elgin, Illinois | Guys, again...
This is a "discussion, among friends... And, Doc is a friend, I certainly saw his passion not in personal terms...
We need to spend our energy protecting our common interest... Not, looking at our narrow perspective as it relates only to ourselves. One only needs to look at "gun control" in California to see what ludicrous results arise from "feel good" legislation. About 20% of the state geographically is precluded from the use of lead bullets of any kind. Magazine capacity and stock shape have created bizarre firearms. So, if you want to see where this could go, just ignore it now and wait and see.
Dennis makes an excellent point, one I can almost fully support. I have retrofitted my boat with an improved livewell system... insulated and oxygenated... In warm weather, if I intend to release fish, I carry ice and monitor the livewell temp with an easy to read thermometer. I wish I possessed better information about livewell management, facts not just my own thoughts an opnions. I don't like to lower the temp more than 5 degrees from the surface temps. Am I right? I believe it helps... The oxygenator is a great thing...
But, I believe that better livewell technology and better handling are ethical matters, not matters for legislation, unless it is applicable to all fishermen. Or, I would certainly support any circuit that demanded better livewells as a condition of participation.
Edited by hgmeyer 12/29/2007 4:48 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | We are full circle back to the social VS biological issues. Some voice social issues I have heard before, choosing to use emotion and 'profiling' in the argument. Not all that uncommon, as some folks use that same debate tactic from the other 'camp'. It will lose the debate for you most times though, because folks are quick to the trigger when someone leaves a door open that wide; no matter the 'camp' or concept.
Reality for everyone depends on their perspective, keep that in mind. That's WHY we have laws and regulations, so reality is spelled out without all the finger pointing, etc. and all of our basic freedoms are not dependent on who is in office at this exact moment and who influences that politician the most. I won't even start on national politics.
There really, IMHO, isn't a fisheries resource protection issue here. If the population of walleyes in any given water cannot support harvest at the level a tournament represents, it also cannot support angling harvest and has to be limited. TAC requirements have done that on waters in the north since the shared resource Treaty issues were clarified. If indeed there was even the slightest threat to the fishery, the area manager needs not issue a permit or limit th number of fish coming off the water in ANYONE'S livewell. HG is right, the attempt here is to legislate a different standard ONLY DURING COMPETITION for those who signed up for the event. Stacker is also right, how can one assign that limit to a competitive angler, and not a Guide? Do the numbers on 5 Guides operating full time on any body of water. What about any other angler, why do they get to target big fish (And many do, it's fishing and it doesn't take a tournament to make one want to catch large fish) and take a limit but not me? If year classes need protection, the area manager can implement a slot limit, like those seen on many waters now.
Here's the deal...the State is not trying to regulate tournament ANGLERS, they are regulating TOURNAMENTS in an attempt to placate the other 'camps' who don't like the ANGLERS on 'their lake'. The State is possibly setting themselves up for no end of trouble by insisting the structure of the law governing the rest of the anglers on that lake that day to NOT apply to me just because I am fishing a PWT or the Denny's event.
I asked if it was a resource issue from harvest standpoint. The answer was no. Attempting to mask social lawmaking based on pressure from special interest groups as a 'resource issue' when there is no 'resource issue' makes for all the confusion. |
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Posts: 2393
Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Nicely stated Steve, you put it all in perspective .........
But now what do we do?
Shut up and take it?
Wait until spring hearings to try and change it?
Call or write our reps?
Call the DNR?
Voice concerns on sites like this?
Raise money for a law suit?
Boycott tournaments, cutting our own throats?
I guess I'd like to know what tournament directors are doing or how they feel about this. It's interesting that those who run tournaments (outside of our very own Stacker) are silent on this. At least in public.
I believe that most of the anglers and directors just do not care. They will just live with it. Actually some directors may like the reduced workload of weighing fewer fish.
You look at the number of people who actually read this thread and compare it to some of our/my silly threads and you get the feeling that some just do not care. Lots of people who do tournaments on this site who show no interest. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Actually, we had the chance to do something about this when the hearings were held across the state. I was pleasantly surprised by the big turnouts, and the Chambers of Commerce, event directors, and other interested parties who showed up and had their few minutes to speak. |
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Member
Posts: 794
Location: Elgin, Illinois | To quote John Belushi; "it ain't over till we say it's over"!
I want to pursue the information about who, what, where, tournaments are doing for the State and the "resource". That is a "political" angle that needs to be presented as a collection and analysis of the relevant data.
And, I want to pursue "pursuasion" before "litigation".
So, as I said before, I am looking for ways to gather the tournament information efficiently. |
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| Denny Denny Denny, You know better then ANYONE that I am NOT against tournament fishermen. WOWEE yourself for making such a claim. Come on my friend and sports show partner, read a little harder before you get on your tournament horse and ride it 
As far as wasted fish. What do they do, go around the lake with a net to scoop up the fish that die from delayed mortality and give them to a food pantry, or do they just die and end up gull food? I'm pretty sure my post was clear that I was talking in reference to the "public opinion" part of the formula. To the public du-fuss or PETA believer, that's a waste. At least the people the day before took their legal limit and ate them = no waste. Also, we both know that the part about the fish going to a food pantry doesn't get enough "ink" and it's my understanding that public opinion is against catch and kill events.
And what am I missing? Tournament fishing isn't about personal achievement? Tournament fishing or fishermen are not concerned with the pursuit of fame or personal glory. OMG, are they stopping handing out checks, publishing pictures and ending all sponsorship opportunities? Wow. I'll reserve THAT comment for our next phone conversation.
As far as the guides. MOST guides do a good job of teaching people to fish or use the resource. That brings dollars in to our communities over a long period of time, even generations. I've met young men who fished with me with their Dad on a guide trip. Said they didn't like fishing because of not catching much. I changed that for this guy and now he brings HIS son fishing. So, I'm STILL giving back and I don't even guide anymore. Same with Bob Vandervelden, Russ Kapitzke and old Smokey who taught ME to fish here. I have a problem with some travel in guides who don't even buy bait locally or won't join the local chamber of commerce, but that's a different story. |
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| Wanted to add. Well run annual tournaments ALSO help to bring people and money to the area AND any problem I HAD with "travel in" guides (as I stated), was in the past when I was guiding here. Since I quit guiding, I don't care what they do as long as they don't drive like an idiot, but I think that goes for everyone. |
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Member
Posts: 1406
| You have a chnace to voice your opinion!!!!!!!
Good Luck
Tyee
January, 22-23 Natural Resources Board meeting.
Persons interested in appearing before the NRB on this issue should review the public appearances guidelines at: http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/publicappearance.htm/ and register to appear by calling NRB Executive Staff Assistance Laurie Ross at 608-267-7420 no later than 4pm on Friday, January 18, 2008.
DRN LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE MEMBERS
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Member
Posts: 1406
| From the Brush Pile! Always worth a chuckle!
Keith Nighswonger IS THE Self-Proclaimed Commissioner Of Professional Bass Fishing. (How is that for arrogance?!?!)
The Brush Pile: It's The Hot Stove League Of Professional Bass Fishing. The Brush Pile is an up to the minute rendering of what I know about the bass fishing world, (no jokes, please.) Whether its a live update from one of our pro correspondents or just something that I came across. If it is something that I think you will find interesting, you will find it here.....in the Brush Pile.
Those who have followed the Brush Pile for a while have noticed the change in tone of this column. The author is experiencing his own, personal Renaissance. Once writing solely for the pure love of fishing, the Brush Pile has evolved, so to speak, into a fan's perspective, (this fan,) of what is right and what is wrong with professional bass fishing today.
With my unique forum, I have the privilege and the responsibility to write the things, that many insiders in the world of Bass Fishing want you to know, but couldn't dare say themselves. I write the truth as I understand it, and my approach is such, based on the available information. Right or wrong, the Brush Pile is opinion, love it or hate it, just make sure not to miss it. To sound off click here.
Going Pro? Read These!
Thinking About Turning Pro? The Article You Must Read!
Making An Impression-Required Reading
ProBassAnglers.com Editorial
Good Morning, Henry Livermore (Reader #158,322)
Thanks For Reading!
Paid Testimonial-In reading the following link be aware that the testimonial involves a product advertised on ProBassAnglers.com
Brim Light
01/06/07-California Not The Worst Anymore! Yaaaay-Whenever I go to a Classic, (this might not be a good year for me to go,) an FLW Championship, (cross that one off the list too, I would be safer in Pakistan,) a PAA Bass Classic, (I think Texas wants me anyway, at least Lyle Lovett says it does,) or an ICAST show, I always have to walk around with a kind of sheepish grin on my face because all of these events require you to wear a press pass. Press passes of course say your name, and embarrassingly, where you are from. I'm from California, (I do have a banjo somewhere in the attic,) which means until recently, I lived in the state with the stupidest rules surrounding bass tournaments.
California laws are written in a manner that makes tournament organizations have to drastically change their rules when, (and if,) they decide to hold an event in our lovely state. A couple years ago, FLW's EverStart events (Strens now,) on Clear Lake allowed only a four fish limit each day because of the wording about number of fish in a boat at one time, if memory serves me, somebody had a 30 pound limit for four fish! Last year we watched in horror as Steve Kennedy had to throw a monster back that was hooked outside the mouth at the Elite Series event on Clear Lake. You see, in California, a bass pro needs a lawyer who can show a bass' intent to eat.
Well, thankfully, California isn't the worst anymore, THANK YOU WISCONSIN!
Wisconsin's Department of Natural Resources comes off as a bureaucracy gone wild with the findings of their study released in a recent memo sent to members of the Natural Resources Board. A study was concluded in June of 2007, with interpreted results that make the "half full, half empty" comment a laughable reality. (What did he just say?-Exactly, if that confused you, the memo to the Natural Resources Board will blow some fuses. Read it if you would like to waste 45 minutes of your life.)
In the wording of Wisconsin's memo, there are some beauties like-
"DISPOSITION OF DEAD FISH." Disposition or Dead Fish? They're dead for crying out loud. Are tournament officials responsible for checking the dead fish's attitudes? I'm guessing unhappy, perhaps resting, maybe relaxed. Of course some may be ridged. I would have to put "Disposition Of Dead Fish" right up there with a Bass' "intent to eat" a lure.
"REQUIRE CONSISTENT AND OBVIOUS MARKING OF TOURNAMENT BOATS." How about a scarlet "F" so all could see, and especially so jet skiers would know to run their slalom races between the fishermen!
In The Public Forum Portion Of The Memo, the lunacy continues-
Public comment
Major Themes:
1. The proposed fees are unreasonably high.
DNR response: The Department has attempted to equitably distribute the costs of administering the fishing tournament program. The proposed fees are necessary to cover the costs of administering the fishing tournament program.
Self Proclaimed Commissioner Of Bass Fishing's Response-"My office is always on the lookout for inappropriate costs passed on to anglers. While it is agreeable that there are social costs attributable to not just fishing tournaments, but all public activities, (including public policy making,) these costs must be reasonable."
2. Proposed fishing tournament permit fees are too high for tournaments held as fund raisers for charities, for fishing/sports clubs, or for conservation projects. Any fees charged would take away funds from the money raised for the charity, club, and/or project.
DNR response: The Department recognizes that some fishing tournaments differ in their purpose. In attempt to address this, the Department proposes that a fee of $25 be charged for “charity-type” tournaments in which proceeds are not returned to the participants.
Self Proclaimed Commissioner Of Bass Fishing's Response-"If The Department of Natural Resources feels that $25.00 is an adequate fee for charity events, then my ruling is that ALL EVENTS SHOULD BE CHARGED ONLY $25.00. IT COSTS AS MUCH TO SOCIETY TO RUN A CHARITY EVENT AS IT WOULD A FOR PROFIT EVENT. Penalty marker thrown, DNR is penalized 15 yards for showing a blatant biased attitude against tournament fishing in general, plus an additional 15 yards for making it so apparent as to be considered taunting to anglers who just want to use the resources, AND a loss of downs. WAKE UP WISCONSIN!"
Final Thoughts By The Commissioner-Bass fishing tournaments provide an opportunity for state resource agencies. They provide opportunities for the collection of data that the public does not have time nor money to fund. The State Of Wisconsin's Department of Natural Resources would be well served to observe the State Of Nevada's practice of having a representative at all events stage out of Calville Bay at Lake Mead in attendance, collecting data at every weigh in. The State of Nevada recognizes the value of these tournaments, and the information they can provide at virtually zero cost to society.
Therefore it is the suggestion of this commissioner's office that The State Of Wisconsin's Department of Natural Resources actually pay tournament organizations a stipend of $150.00 per event and encourage organizations to hold events in the future, so that much needed data can be collected at a fraction of what it would normally cost bureaucrats to conduct a study.
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Member
Posts: 1406
| The NRB has approved a tournament regulation plan and it is now up to the legislature. I heard it was a revised NR20.40 but do not have the final copy yet, will post when I get it!
http://wkow.madison.com/News/index.php?ID=18465
Time to start calling and sending e-mails, this thing is on the way for approval!
Good luck
Tyee
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Member
Posts: 1314
Location: Menasha, WI | Tyee, Why call our reps? The legislature granted rule-making authority to the DNR. It doesn't have to go to the legislature. It's a done deal as I understand the law. |
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Member
Posts: 1406
| Here it is!
Tournament Regulation FH-22-06
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2008/January/01-08-3B1.pdf
There's a lot of info in here!!!!!!!!
Good Luck
Tyee
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