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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | no problem rich,,, my day is full of ups and downs,,, some things are out of our control, thats all, we can do our best but you know,, i like it when the posts go back and fourth,,, guys bicker and take a few shots.. all are good folks,, its fun to find a bit of humor in the stuff, things make me giggle some are silly and you cant help but jump on them.. guys always seem to find time to take a shot at tyee,, lol its kinda a nice way to get threw the day,,, its funny how this thread took off and the back and fourth got heated ,,, VHS the end of the world the next post , its not a big deal, then there is demands for more regulation!, then all of a sudden CT. comes in and says,, hmmm empty your live wells , kill your fish,, dont transfer water? NO he says something Brilliant! Wonder what happens when we get 15 inches of rain and the whole state becomes one big Lake and river system? THEN the thread gets quiet and the wheels are turning in people minds,,, HMMM maybe we humans arent the second comming after all. once again we bow our heads to mother nature in awe. tight lines guys, can you feal the love?
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| Thanks Bradley, wasn't try'n to sound intelligent but being referred to as Brilliant makes my day. Usually only my wife thinks that.
Actually this thread has had a pretty good balance, I think Red makes good points and puts it all in the correct perspective, obviously others think it needs more attention. Now if I wanted to rile people up I would start one about how ridiculous the Sauger program is for Winnebago, kind of like the Elk program. But I'll avoid that topic. |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | WOWEEE CT YOUR WIFE THINKS YOUR BRILLIANT? MINE LOVES ME TO NO AND BUT I COULD WIN THE NOBELL PIECE PRISE CURE CANCER AND INVENT A PILL YOU CAN DROP IN YOUR GAS TANK TO INSTANLY GIVE YOUR GMC 4X4 100MPG ,,, AND MY WIFE WOULDNT USE THE WORD BRILIANT.. common sence you have no doubt, logical too. now about the sauger program.. at least its not our tax dollars working on it. walleys for tommorw is the true reason with the work done to the marshes and the such for our fantabulus walleye population.. if anyone can get this sauger thing to stick i would think it would be them, if they cant i certainly dont think our tax dollars on the state level would get it done.. oh well tight lines .. Brad |
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| LOL, very good.
I agree, I'm glad it is WFT money that supports it and not my $. Personally I like to eat em, tastes like chicken. Oh well I digress. |
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| Gloria said it...............First I was afraid
I was petrified
Kept thinking I could never live
without you by my side
But I spent so many nights
thinking how you did me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on
and so you're back
from outer space
I just walked in to find you here
with that sad look upon your face
I should have changed my stupid lock
I should have made you leave your key
If I had known for just one second
you'd be back to bother me...........I WILL SURVIVE
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | gloria , you make me giggle too,,, aaaaaaaaah the sun will come out..... TOmorrow , sweap away the cobwebs and the sorrowwwwwwwww till theres none... just thinking about tomorrowwwww |
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| What gets my goat on this is that even though I have spent over 165 hrs. in the past 8 months researching the VHS virus, I have talked to over 35 DNR wardens and biologists in seven states, have talked to over 16 editors of fishing magazines and also have talked to an expert in Germany about VHS and I have concluded that VHS is a virus, like any other virus. It will come and go but it won't, and never has, devastated any wild fish populations in the world. And sorry, a 3% muskie kill is squat. But it seems that because I am not a tournament fisherman or a guide that it somehow makes the 35 DNR personnel, 16 editors and 1 German VHS expert irrelevant. But people then boast that the scientific community is behind the side of the worst case scenario when they are far from it!
I am far from naive about this subject. I don't post often on this site, but the subjects I voice my opinions on I know well.
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | I'm really sick of arguing, but from your postings, I'm guessing you didn't research enough and don't know that the virus mutated somewhat and is not the same strain that affected Europe and other areas of the world, so your research isn't exactly proven and valid. Still a guessing game, even to ANY biologist or whomever you spoke to, and I'll still error on the side of caution. We'll have to politely disagree on this one, but I sure don't want to hear you whining or pointing fingers is something devasating does happen.  |
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| The only things different about the strain over here and the European strain is than the strain here can infect more species and it survives in a little bit colder water....besides that they are basically the same. Now seeming how I never said they were identical I don't know how it is not valid. Please show me one thing I said that is not correct or based from facts of history. The viruses act the same and have the same symptoms and have the same wild mortality rate. Since there is more than a 60 year history of the virus you can look back and get a good guess on what will happen. The brown trout in Germany that were infected built up an anti-virus immunity right away. They monitored the anti-viruses and found out that after four years the virus was gone from the brown trout population, it took several more years for the pike but it still disappeared from the streams and rivers it was found in.
You or anyone else has yet to come up with one virus that has done any devastating, long term affect to a fish population anywhere in the world...and there are a lot of them out there! Dido that to an animal population. You will not see me pointing any fingers because it is Mother Nature. Funny that this thread did not start when the thousands of round gobies that were found dead earlier, but instead you don't have a perch kill and the DNR find some that are carrying the virus while doing routine tests and all panic breaks loose and "there goes the farm".
I you are so concerned about it and want to error on the side of caution then why don't you stop fishing in tournaments. The effects of the virus are exacerbated by stress, and tournaments cause stress to fish, very possibly causing fish with VHS that might be able survive the outbreak to die. I'm not against tournaments but if your concern is that great you would modify all your habits that might affect the outcome.
Even Sea Grant states that VHS is like any other virus including the ones we get, it will come, it will infect, it will kill some and the rest build up immunity! So now you’re going to tell me those 30 universities that have spent money researching this are all liars and don't know what they are talking about either? Is their research not valid? You are thinking I don't care when all I have been saying is STOP BLOWING THIS OUT OF PROPORTION! For crying out loud, there was a large fish kill in a Wisconsin river after a tournament, over 500 bass died and 98 had their tails clipped from being registered in the tournament and many had LMBD, where is your concern over this? Or is walleye and VHS your only worrisome combination?
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | RedNeckTech - 6/18/2008 1:12 PM
Well Walleye,
I'm 42, not exactly young, but you do have quite a list.....now can there be a reference point to any thing on the list that is directly blamed for a long term, devastating effect on fish populations?
OOOOOOOeeeeeeeeee. Man, I'm gone fishing for a day, go to bed early and come back to find what I figured was a thoughtful thread full of melodrama and letters from the dead letter pile of Dear Abby. Remind me if I actually do see the sky falling not to post it here. But I'd like to close by answering RNT last question to me above.
I'll start by saying that every single living thing in any ecosystem is connected. No zooplancton is an Island, too paraphrase a popular book. Every single new thing that comes into an ecosystem pushes or changes the other things in it. And yes there were plenty of fishing things effected and devestated by some of the things on my list. Lets take Zebra Mussels, the easy one first. And I'll use Saginaw Bay as the watershed as I've grown up and fished its waters for 50 years. Saginaw Bay used to be called the Perch Capital of the world. You could catch as many perch as you wanted any time, not only in the Bay but the ditches and dredgcuts that dumped into it. There were no limits. Perch were the first specie to suffer because of the mussels. Perch need all the same things that zebras filter out of the water column to survive from fry to fingerling stage. Their number fell dramatically and put many commercial fishermen and a few perch fishing charter boats out of business. The standing room only piers and docks I fished off when I was a kid are baron of all life now. All those little comunities that got a shot in the arm from this fishery don't have it any longer. But lets continue.
It took yet another invasive we aquired via Ballast water a little longer to get starved out because of the zebra, but our enormous biomass of alewife finally succumb. And when it did the Lake Huron salmon fishery did so with them. No more tourest dollars starting after ice-out in the spring or the best three months in the fall when one tournament after the other in every port and packed Motels and Hotels were the norm. AuGres, Taws City, Oscoda, Harrisville, Rogers City, Mackinaw City, Port Sanilac, Harbor Beach, Grindstone City and Port Austin all look more like ghost towns now during the best fall salmon fishing months. The Lake trout are still doing fine because of yet another invasive called the goby. But we keep dodging this invasive bullet year after year. Tell all these people who have lost everything about the 60 year history of VHS and not to "OVERBLOW" this new threat. It was so much easier when I was young and only cared about my own personal pleasures, needs and not much else. I'm not sure now that I'm any better off or respected any better for speaking out about or caring about everything from our next president to the young men dying to keep us free and safe in foreign lands. But I damn sure know it makes me feel better about doing so. So excuse me and a lot of others for OVERBLOWING this subject as well. Thats all I'll say any further on the subject.
Edited by walleye express 6/20/2008 8:24 AM
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| Dan for VP!!!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Red Neck your research has validity,, your research is well recognized and though you guys go back and fourth the science and logic behind your words give you more credibuility than then the emotional argument.. the emotional arguement is always going to be there because we are talking about something neer and dear to our hearts... the fish population.. i have come to the conclusion that if it wasnt this virus it will be something else,, the fact that we give mother nature a little help with transportation doesnt mean she couldnt have spread these bugs and things by herself eventualy,, i think small exposure to these worldwide and continualy evolving threats isnt nessisarily a bad thing.. though i wouldnt condone helping the spread . its unfortunate that folks wait around to use things like this to advance a political or what they feal is a moral adgenda . anyway keep up the good fight and to the guys who have spent countless hours working on things like this , im thankfull that there are folks with the same sportsmanlike mentality working on this as i have.. as long as we have some sharp minded anglers who take on issues like this and can put up a solid argument with supporting data there is hope that we have some chance and representation from our side of the fence. thank you! dan too. i cant say i would be one to set asside the time and effort to tackle such a project.. shame on us.. i guess...... DAN please let us know where to send the check? running for president is spendy ... ill throw some in the hat for you.. grab the red neck for VP and you guys would be unbeatable .. they wouldnt know what hit them..
Edited by bradley894 6/20/2008 10:19 AM
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| "Saginaw Bay used to be called the Perch Capital of the world. You could catch as many perch as you wanted any time, not only in the Bay but the ditches and dredgcuts that dumped into it. There were no limits. Perch were the first specie to suffer because of the mussels. Perch need all the same things that zebras filter out of the water column to survive from fry to fingerling stage. Their number fell dramatically and put many commercial fishermen and a few perch fishing charter boats out of business. The standing room only piers and docks I fished off when I was a kid are baron of all life now. All those little comunities that got a shot in the arm from this fishery don't have it any longer. But lets continue. "
While the Zebra muscles MAY have been a contributing factor, I would like to see scientific proof that it was the sole reason as you claim. What about poor recruitment and plain overharvesting?
The alewife IS an exotic, Salmon were introduced to resolve that problem. When the numbers were finally in check, they played with stocking numbers to make Salmnoids a viable fishery, not what was best for the ecosystem. When the Ale wife populations were "crashing" a few short years ago on Michigan, there was talk of stocking Alewifes. Again not what's best for the ecosystem, but what was best for some people's pockets.
Greed does more damage, exotics are a great excuse after the greed damage is done. |
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| terroreyes - 6/17/2008 10:14 PM
It's not the laws that will put the bait shops out of business, that has already been proven by adaptation of the rules by the sates and their actual survival. It's the lack of tourism. I don't dispute your acknowledgement of the problem. It's your take action after the consequences approach that I don't agree with. Your point of view seems to be that if it doesn't wipe out the entire population, then there's no reason for action.
It may not be because of the VHS that the guides are suffering, GAS PRICES might be causing more people to stay home and fish local lakes or shorter trips to closer destinations instead of running to Erie or Canada for that mater. $4.00 Gas can cut into allot of trip plans when your talking several hundred miles.
I still think that we should be a little carefull on this but I think it is also maybe mother natures way of keeping fish populations in check as well. Sure, this was brought here but whos to say that in the long run with fish populations being that large that something wasn't going to happen in ways of fish kill? |
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| It's not dodging a bullet, it's nature. Isn't it amazing how Mother Nature takes care of it's own problems! Wow! The only time there are major issues is when man steps in to stock a waterway the way he would like it to be or harvest it in the way he thinks it can handle. Labeling everything that comes here that shouldn't be "dodging the bullet" is exactly my point. In order to dodge a bullet the item has to be a bullet in the first place. All the invasive you mentioned earlier have no record of devastating fish anywhere including where they came from. We stock bass, muskie, walleye and other game fish in places where they were not for the sole purpose of our fishing enjoyment and then get upset when Mother Nature says "hold on a minute, this is not right". Gobies end up being a food for other fish, zebra mussels end up cleaning the water and so on. There is no outrage of the DNR killing all fish in a southern lake so they can start over with what they think is best....and all the fish die in the lake when they do that...100% mortality rate. If you keep portraying every fish kill like it is the beginning of the end for fish, soon there will be people getting into government with the attitude that it is too risky to allow anyone to harvest any fish because it will aid in the destruction of the fisheries. When something shows up in the world that is actually having a devastating impact on wild fish, then I will be right on board with worrying about it. But if every time something new shows up and the first reaction is panic, pretty soon in 20 years your grandchildren will be asking you what it was like to be able to fish. You cannot just ignore the history on this. |
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| Didn't this whole thing start with fish farms over in Europe? I cannot find any articale on a "devisating fish kill in the wild" when it comes to VHS, only large fish kills. And what is a large fish kill? Is it in relation to the over all fish population in the lake or is it more like someone looking at 1000 dead fish and saying"Boy, that is a lot of fish? |
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| Just to put it in perspective I'll use the muskie kill on Lake St Claire because they think they know how many muskie are in the lake and the guessed how many may have died. If the average musky size in that lake was 30" and you laid them on the ground head to tail you would form a line from downtown Green Bay, WI to Oshkosh, WI following hwy 41 (about 48 miles)....now if you laid the total they think were killed in the outbreak head to tail you would not even make it out of down town Green Bay (about 1.4 miles). Now, is that kill a large size compared to total population or just looking and saying that is a lot of fish? |
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | Now I see where your animosity comes from. LOL FYI, I don't fish tournaments. I just custom paint and make tournament fisherman better.  Maybe a charity event for injured troops or such, but that's it.
Though we don't agree, it's good to see that at least you were concerned enough to research it extensively. Like I said, it's just a guessing game for everyone, and as a RECREATIONAL fisherman, I'll still error on the side of caution. And like I and others noted earlier, it doesn't take devestation to have a major impact on a fishery and related businesses. That's my point, not too worried about the doomsday scenario. but I am taking precautions to prevent it. It's not really that much of a burden! The time you spent arguing about it on here, you could have sterilized your livewell 20 times.
Edited by terroreyes 6/20/2008 9:00 PM
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| No animosity here. I just don't fish tournaments, in fact I don't even have a boat anymore...I had operations on my inner ears and it kind of affected my sense of balance. The rocking of a boat or the slightest movement throws me off balance so I don't even try anymore.
I do know what the fear can do to business. But that fear only has one foot in reality. Believe me, if VHS had a track history of doing the damage to wild populations that some keep saying could, might, can happen....I would be a bit more concerned.
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Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | It's not the fear, it's the reality. The muskie kill here was bad enough to break a few charters, and severly limit others success. There's still lots of muskie around, but many of the trophies died and the population was dramatically affected. Also, many people, no matter what you tell them, aren't going to come to a place to catch fish with rashes, because they're not going to eat them with a rash. Ther's the fear impact. Many, many scenarios of impact from a business standpont beyond regulation.
Edited by terroreyes 6/20/2008 9:44 PM
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| Hey, I agree that it is affecting businesses, but it is not just the VHS. It is the gas prices, the food prices, and the over all economy....and MI is in worse shape than most of the country. People are just not out and about like they used to be. People will always fish for the fish they like rash or no rash. They still fished for perch with the peppering affect of parasites, they still fish for bass with LMBD (very similar to VHS) and they still fish for muskie with muskie pox out there. Another aspect is that many people who start charters, guide services, bait shops may know their stuff when it comes to fishing but they have poor business sense. Many of the business failures are of the owners own fault and they blame it on everything from regulations to President Bush. |
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| economic impact.....Dan didn't you post the zebra mussel affect on the wastewater treatment plants.......maybe I read it someplace else but they alone have accounted for more than 30 million dollars of expense If I remember correctly. clogging drains and what not. So no it's not just the affect on the fish but the overall business expense of invasives is huge..VHS is in it's infancy and it's going to get worse, maybe not a doomsday senerio in your mind but maybe in others.
Bradley....I want to throw some money in the pot too..... for you as...well Pres and VP have been taken so maybe...... secretary of state......I'm with Rich I gotsta meet this guy.........
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| 30 million vs 4.6 billion.....Charter sport fishing for Salmon. Exotics can provide benefits too. |
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