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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | A few years back, I always used my speed wheel from my LMS350A to determine my trolling speed. After calling in some friends via the Ship to shore one day to the few places I was hitting the fish pretty good, their own success wasn't as good as mine. Of course when this happens, you begin comparing the differences in your total fishing program to find out the differenece and the problem. It seemed when these same friends would line up their boats with my boat and try to stay with me, I'd pull away at a steady pace. My 1.8 mph on my speedwheel was truly about 2.8 to 3.2 on my SOG on the GPS.
So how soon after you find fish, do you try the slower/faster inticement? And in what enviromental conditions do either work best for you? Is there a certain visual situation you observe, or cue you take from your Graph readings that makes you try this manuever? Or have you even bothered to mentally document such things in different situations?
Lifes to short, The days to long, When both are spent fishing, You can’t go wrong.
Edited by walleye express 12/12/2003 2:10 PM
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | When I give presentations to groups I answer that question this way.
You should always try to fine tune your presentation in the following order:
Location
Depth
Speed
Lure
Color
Direction
In regards to speed, the colder the water the slower the starting speed. Obviously the type of presentation that you're using also dictates the speed. Crawler harnesses slower, shad rap type baits faster, stick baits in between. That being said, as I continue to play with speed I attempt to keep my lures in the strike zone as long as possible. If the fish are in a confined space I try to troll slower to stay there longer. If the fish are spread out over (let's say) a 2 mile stretch, I try to speed up to present my offering to as many active fish in the shortest time frame.  |
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Do concur with Sunshine on the temperature. Generally will fish slow and slower in cold and colder water. Specially if the water is turning colder.
On Lake Winnebago, my favorite trolling speed is a fast 3 - 3.5 on the paddlewheel. But only during at least a 3 day period of stable flat calm weather (don't think that happened much last year). Also will use larger stick baits and shad raps and fish them very high in the water column. If the seagulls try to get them, then your high enough!
Now on Lake Michigan, I like going fast all the time in any temperature water. Its wide open spaces and finding schools of fish is more hit and miss, so one needs to cover more water. But here current is a HUGE factor. Having down riggers is a must, even if you don't plan to use them. They will tell you the direction and speed of the current were your baits are, just by measuring the angle of the wire leading to the ball.
Along with this, I use a Cannon Speed and Temp that is sent down with the ball. It will give you the speed of the current and the temperature of the water at any depth you send it. Imagine you find a band of water at 54 degrees, a Salmon's favorite. You keep all your baits in this narrow 10 foot band of water. FISH ON!
The only problem with this knowledge is, doesn't take but a few trips to have my legal possesion limit in the freezer, and have to stop fishing for trout and slamon as they don't release alive very well. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Nice post Rick |
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*Thanx*!  |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Yupper. Good reply Rick.
And heres a picture from Manistee last year that shows the results of what you talked about. I had another picture of this monster, but it wasn't pretty. Seems one of my good buddies jerked my pants down from behind me the same time the picture was taken. Being a BIG man, I look small enough without holding a 24 pound comparison in my hands.
Edited by walleye express 12/12/2003 3:48 PM
(August Manistee Salmon. 017.jpg)
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 August Manistee Salmon. 017.jpg (81KB - 125 downloads)
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Sunshine on 2003-12-12 3:13 PM
When I give presentations to groups I answer that question this way.
You should always try to fine tune your presentation in the following order:
Location
Depth
Speed
Lure
Color
Direction
In regards to speed, the colder the water the slower the starting speed. Obviously the type of presentation that you're using also dictates the speed. Crawler harnesses slower, shad rap type baits faster, stick baits in between. That being said, as I continue to play with speed I attempt to keep my lures in the strike zone as long as possible. If the fish are in a confined space I try to troll slower to stay there longer. If the fish are spread out over (let's say) a 2 mile stretch, I try to speed up to present my offering to as many active fish in the shortest time frame. ;-)
Good stuff as usual Dennis.
And to add to the part of your answer that says "you troll slower with harnesses" is precisely why I worked to refine my Spoon Harness Rigs to troll at faster speeds with live bait last summer.
I find it fascinating at times that even the reaction-speed bite isn't enough to get the active biters to commit sometimes. I determine this mainly by observing just where and how deep the fish has both taken in the crank and where he has been hooked when trolling fast.
I've been working on giving even the active biters some meat smell and taste when chasing my offerings down at faster speeds. I think this facit of the game will become even more inportant, as our fish, water, forage base and enviromental conditions continually change and shift in the years to come.
Edited by walleye express 12/12/2003 3:45 PM
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| So how soon after I find fish do I start changing speeds?
Depends on if I'm in a group of boats, seeing other boats catching fish or if I'm all by myself. If I'm around other boats and see them catching fish while I'm not, I'm would probably be pretty impatient and start trying to match the successful boats speed after being a spectator for no more then 20 - 30 minutes TOPS. Now if I'm alone over open water, on a bite that I've been fishing successfully, I would be more likely to make small speed changes (from 1.5 to 2.2) and mix in some different colors before changing bait styles and making a change greater the 1 mph. (for instance going from 1.8 to .8 or to 3.5) I can imagine color tweeks and small speed tweeks taking a good couple of hours to play themselves out. I can also see myself making smaller tweeks in bait styles under cold front conditions and staying in the slower speeds for a good amount of time before bringing in all the baits and going to spoons and tight running baits at 3.5 mph and looking for a reaction strike.
Of course all of this is based on presenting baits to fish at the proper depth and how much homework I've done on presentation. If the sources that put me on the bite or personal experience over a number of days has me catching fish with Wally Divers, X amount back at 2.2 mph and all of a sudden the fish don't bite what do you change first, depth, speed, color or diffreent bait style? I guess since I always cover a range of depths in a spread, personally I'd start with color and small tweeks of speed.
So under what environmental conditions does either work for best for me? I've had my best success pulling large stick baits, rod in hand, VERY slow over and around shallow structure at night with my bow mount.
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| Well Capt. Dan, let me start by saying that my trolling experience is mostly harnesses (some cranks) and very very little if any with boards. That being said, I obviously do most of my trolling with straight lines w/ 3 ways. In my applications, when trying to determain the best speed to trigger fish, I usually troll in a continuous S curve as I go. If I'm getting bites on my outside rods, I know I need to either go faster, or shallower while in a straight line. If my bites are coming on my inside lines, that would indicate that I should slow down, or go deeper. I know you understand my references to speed dictating depth with a weighted harness, so I won't go into long detail. Once I get a couple bites, I'll make my adjustments and troll in a straight line.
I have more than once had a simular situation with other boats I was working with where I was catching fish 3-1 over the others, and every time, I was going considerably faster than the others. |
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| Was in a tourney one fine weekend and after day one away from the pack we did fairly well trollin' As the majority of the others were all in one area doing the same on the other end of the lake! We'll we were clippin along at 3+ and on day 2 when we went with the rest of the pack we were "screamin" by them all. I think we covered more water than 100 other boats combined in the first hour! Didn't realize they all were pullin crawler harneses, as this presentation had just begun on this lake. It seemed that day that the crawlers at the slow 1.5 and under did a better job at the scales, Although we did fairly well rippin sticks through that hot bite, Hindsite is 20/20 but had we been on that bite day 1 might have had a whole different result. So my opinion is, If the bite is on, your gonna catch fish either way! for those dog days in summer switch it up till it works. I think you have to look at every body of water differently. Just as you do with every presentation. OH, and don't forget wind direction, I think that plays the biggest part in trolling not necessarily the speed but depending on the depth of water, the direction to waves and underwater current!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | AA confession:
Most people have to force themselves to slow down. I'm just the opposite and I have to force myself to speed up.
When I read press releases like the one announcing the Minnema’s MWC victory, I just shake my head. Tim is quoted as saying they did best trolling down river with leadcore fishing over 3 mph. I don't know if I would have even thought of this in mid-October. I guess we all need to keep an open mind at all times.
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Dennis.
You got that right. I was shaking my head the first time I seen Al Linder catching last ice walleyes at river mouths, while trolling Rapala's with three ways. And trolling downstream (very fast) in one of our local hot water dischrages, is a proven method as well. I'm thinking this would be the ultiment (reaction strike) in both places.
Edited by walleye express 12/13/2003 11:25 AM
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Location: NW Illinois | I am new to trolling this past year, but found by accident on the Mississippi that there are times when the fish will hit at 3 to 1 ratio on a bait trolled downstream, fast. I was trolling shap raps on a 1/2 mile long clam bed. No fish on first pass, but marked lots of fish on the channel edge. Drifted jigs down through them with one small fish. On my second pass down I decided to leave the raps in the water. Ran 4+ mph down towards my starting point and had a double in the first 100 yards. I experimented with faster upstream speed, but was not nearly as productive as the same speed downstream.
The next day, could not buy a fish trolling down stream. Any ideas why the change in attitude? Weather and river conditions where very stable, same time of day. I am still scratching my head?!?
Rooster |
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Location: Chicago IL. | John, Thats fishing the river for ya. Always try something untill you find what they want. The worst thing that could happen to a river fisherman is catch 1 walleye on a different method and get stuck on it tring to make it work for the rest of the day. I have fell victim to this toooooomany times. Its not to often but pulling downstream sometimes puts bigger fish in the boat. Think about it ,,,,its hitting the fish with a in your face look at the bait. I know of a few tourneys that were won on this method . The secret is not to go TOO fast but just fast enough to get the cranks working. John Mannerino |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rooster on 2003-12-15 12:14 AM
I am new to trolling this past year, but found by accident on the Mississippi that there are times when the fish will hit at 3 to 1 ratio on a bait trolled downstream, fast. I was trolling shap raps on a 1/2 mile long clam bed. No fish on first pass, but marked lots of fish on the channel edge. Drifted jigs down through them with one small fish. On my second pass down I decided to leave the raps in the water. Ran 4+ mph down towards my starting point and had a double in the first 100 yards. I experimented with faster upstream speed, but was not nearly as productive as the same speed downstream.
The next day, could not buy a fish trolling down stream. Any ideas why the change in attitude? Weather and river conditions where very stable, same time of day. I am still scratching my head?!?
Rooster
Rooster.
I see you becoming a very good successful troller. You did some things that tells me that. You first noticed where the fish were setting up and stayed in that zone. You then left the lines in and trolled back with the current. I think you did that instinctively & impulsively, maybe even on a fluke, but you did it. Now, it payed off and you have yet another ace in the hole that others may not think about or try on a hard bite.
Lets face it, these fish were setting facing up-stream, to ambush anything being washed down. Adding some speed to your cranks over the exsisting currents speed, probaly triggered their strike instinct even better in those circumstances. You might try anchoring off to the side next time you zero in on just where they are staging and do some casting and speed reeling.
And another little tid-bit that catches (tough bite) river current fish. If possible anchor above this ambush point. Then let your cranks drop-back slowly into the current to where you think that point is. The current will work your offerings quit well. Hold your rod high, so as not to let your lure gouge bottom, even though at times this can be the key that makes them strike. Work your lure slowly through that zone by inching out line in small incriments. Might even try moving your rod tip left and right. If theres a fish there, he'll eventually strike it believe me. I've put so very many fish in my Drift Boat while doing the same thing, only with oars.
Edited by walleye express 12/15/2003 8:20 AM
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| I had the privledge 2 years ago of fishing with Pete Harsh, in my opinion one of the finest pro fishermen on the circuit. We were cruising along pulling harnesses at .6 mph on the GPS. Mr Harsh almost made me seasick with the S turns he was pulling. Of course my inquisitive mind forced me to ask the question as to why this technique was better than simply following the break and changing speeds.
His reply made alot of sense. He said, not all fish from the same school are in the same mood. Some like it faster, sone like it slower, some higher, some lower. This technique alloed us to present 4 different baits with 4 differnt presentations. Using this technique also makes it possible to troll harness and cranks at the same time. Put your harness on the inside boards with a narrow spread, put the cranks on the outside and get /em way out there. In my humble opinion it is by far the best method to troll.
Rob |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rob Stratton on 2003-12-15 4:25 PM
I had the privledge 2 years ago of fishing with Pete Harsh, in my opinion one of the finest pro fishermen on the circuit. We were cruising along pulling harnesses at .6 mph on the GPS. Mr Harsh almost made me seasick with the S turns he was pulling. Of course my inquisitive mind forced me to ask the question as to why this technique was better than simply following the break and changing speeds.
His reply made alot of sense. He said, not all fish from the same school are in the same mood. Some like it faster, sone like it slower, some higher, some lower. This technique alloed us to present 4 different baits with 4 differnt presentations. Using this technique also makes it possible to troll harness and cranks at the same time. Put your harness on the inside boards with a narrow spread, put the cranks on the outside and get /em way out there. In my humble opinion it is by far the best method to troll.
Rob
Good stuff Rob.
And precisley why I worked on and refined my Spoon Harnesses Rigs last summer, to troll with both cranks and meat at the same time and at the same speed. It's always an asset to take advantage of all and any techniques you can, while illiminating the ones that do and don't work as fast as you can. Or like you said, appealing to both active and less active biters at the same time.
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Location: NW Illinois | Man, what a great discussion this is! I've been trying to learn all I can about trolling the past year or so, getting a lot of GREAT info here. John, I know what you mean about getting "stuck". I've done that plenty myself, with many presentations. Also, that "downstream" day, I caught two of the four biggest fish I've caught on this pool on that day, with the downstream troll.
Dan, thanks for some great tips! I don't know why I did not think to anchor and cast or, especially, to anchor above and drop back to the fish. I have done that with very good success on wing dams when the bite is really tough. I like to use a jointed rap or walley diver on a modified Carolina rig and let it slip with the current until it contacts the wing dam base, moving ever so slowly down stream. I've found that to work on really tough bite days when the fish are staging at the base, or out in front of a wing dam, and won't touch other presentations. Never crossed my mind that it would work in many other areas as well! I assume that the bait wiggling in front of their face long enough just aggrivates them in to striking. When you say speed reeling Dan, are you talking about casting across and upstream, cranking back downstream?
Thanks for a great thread!
Rooster |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by Rooster on 2003-12-15 9:07 PM
Man, what a great discussion this is! I've been trying to learn all I can about trolling the past year or so, getting a lot of GREAT info here. John, I know what you mean about getting "stuck". I've done that plenty myself, with many presentations. Also, that "downstream" day, I caught two of the four biggest fish I've caught on this pool on that day, with the downstream troll.
Dan, thanks for some great tips! I don't know why I did not think to anchor and cast or, especially, to anchor above and drop back to the fish. I have done that with very good success on wing dams when the bite is really tough. I like to use a jointed rap or walley diver on a modified Carolina rig and let it slip with the current until it contacts the wing dam base, moving ever so slowly down stream. I've found that to work on really tough bite days when the fish are staging at the base, or out in front of a wing dam, and won't touch other presentations. Never crossed my mind that it would work in many other areas as well! I assume that the bait wiggling in front of their face long enough just aggrivates them in to striking. When you say speed reeling Dan, are you talking about casting across and upstream, cranking back downstream?
Thanks for a great thread!
Rooster
Roster.
Most often, I'll get upstream and just off to the side first. Then quarter cast just above and ahead of the holding spot and make sure the crank is at it's retrieved arc and turing away from the spot at it's apex. Cannot say how many different fish species I've caught when that magic arc changes from swimming downstream to swimming up. It has to be the best instinctive manuever you can have with a crankbait.
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Location: La Crescent, MN | Rooster, we troll downstream alot on this part of the Mississippi (pools 3- 9), it can work really well, and the side benefit is you get snagged alot less. I have found it to be best in cooling water and warming water, i.e. may/june and september/october, but of course can work well in the summer also.
Zach |
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Location: NW Illinois | Originally written by zboudreau on 2003-12-16 10:46 AM
Rooster, we troll downstream alot on this part of the Mississippi (pools 3- 9), it can work really well, and the side benefit is you get snagged alot less. I have found it to be best in cooling water and warming water, i.e. may/june and september/october, but of course can work well in the summer also.
Zach
That really makes sense to me Zach. The best day I had was a week after the first big cold front of mid-late September. The water temp had dropped 10 degrees in a week. I had hoped that drop would trigger an increase in appetite, and you confirmed that for me. Thanks, its great to know that the dropping temps were probably a factor. It saves a lot of guess work having a great place like this to confirm hunches and hear from guys in the know!
Rooster
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Rooster.
It's my opinion that virtually all of the technique refinments along with 90% of the lures produced in the last 35 years have been started on hunches. You could have the next hunch that revolutionizes the walleye fishing world. Keep at it.
Edited by walleye express 12/18/2003 7:55 AM
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| If your baits are flippin your to fast.
If there not your to slow.
It's a fine line.
I find you ussualy catch more fish going fast.
But there are day's when sloooooooooooooooow is the ticket.
Bigger fish seam to like it slower though but for eaters crank it up. |
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