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| Message Subject: Tournament Impact in WI ie. Culling study Results | |||
Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | That's reall fuun Bradle. I would never of thought of that. Thank ou. | ||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Hey I was just going to post a poll question to see where everyone stands on the issues. When did that option go away?????????????????? | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | hmmm? sunshine? they got to you too? this is bigger than i thaught ,,,, first the crawler reports stop and all the crawlers go into hiding and now this? ok ,,,, i see how its gonna be.... | ||
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| Viking |
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Member Posts: 1314 Location: Menasha, WI | Bradley, I specifically said biological monitoring. You're changing the subject. | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Viking, it's okay to change the subject, the DNR and Legislation did.  What started as a culling study has turned into a tourament fee and stamp system and a few unsound biological proposed rules to appease another demographic of recreational resource users. | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | sory viking ,, i just jumped on everyone else for changing the subject and now i did it , didnt they budget biological monitoring for the bass guys piolot program thing and somehow now want to take the money that was waisted errrrrrrrr budgeted in advance and spent as conservitivly as possible and now they want to charge a fee to recover that money they spent that was our money anyway over a period of 6 years for now and also grab some cash in the form of stamps and fees from all the other anglers that m,,, how did that work... speaking of bioligical,, i havent seen a vhs sighting for a long time , in fact i have not caught a fish all year with the exeption of seeing one or two sheepsheads spinning out this spring..... ya the should still shut down the river this spring just in case though.good to see the Y's in your post though.. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | This isn't about anything but MONEY!!! Simple as that. The perception is that Tournaments are bad for the fish, and the recreational user. Fact is, tourney anglers take far less, and give way more back to the resource than the toutrists. Doc, I fail to understand why you must always throw in barbs and personal attacks. Why would closing the Bago system be ridiculous? Why do you side with the greedy pigs that double and trile dip, and keep the big spawners every spring. Surely, they do way more damage to the resource than the tournamments that are held, bar tourney or otherwise. Head in sand thinking? Yep, you're right. Regulate the snot out of the tourneys, and then you and your resort owners will be whining when the PWT, the FLW, and the MWC don't come here anymore. Because that is what will happen. Why is KC moving out of state, and many of the big companies? Because we tax, fee, and regulate them to death. It's all about the money. I don't care what the legislators say, they are not friends of industry, and they are driving WI into a service economy. Word of warning, you won't be able to afford to take a family vacation to the Wolf on McDonalds or Service Master wages. Also, you flatter yourself if you think all my comments are directed at you. My comments about the FLW are directed to everyone else that care about tourney fishing in WI. Again, perception is driving all the major circuits to look at how the do things, at how the public views them. Not just the FLW, but they have taken greater steps thus far in trying to improve the image of their tournaments. Again, I attended two of the local hearings when they were held. Neither one I was at, did I hear any complaints about the tourney boats misconduct that you speak of. Not one. Why is that? I certainly didn't hear you speak up on it? Why is that? | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | Shep - 10/5/2007 2:29 PM This isn't about anything but MONEY!!! Simple as that. The perception is that Tournaments are bad for the fish, and the recreational user. Fact is, tourney anglers take far less, and give way more back to the resource than the toutrists. Doc, I fail to understand why you must always throw in barbs and personal attacks. Why would closing the Bago system be ridiculous? Why do you side with the greedy pigs that double and trile dip, and keep the big spawners every spring. Surely, they do way more damage to the resource than the tournamments that are held, bar tourney or otherwise. Head in sand thinking? Yep, you're right. Regulate the snot out of the tourneys, and then you and your resort owners will be whining when the PWT, the FLW, and the MWC don't come here anymore. Because that is what will happen. Why is KC moving out of state, and many of the big companies? Because we tax, fee, and regulate them to death. It's all about the money. I don't care what the legislators say, they are not friends of industry, and they are driving WI into a service economy. Word of warning, you won't be able to afford to take a family vacation to the Wolf on McDonalds or Service Master wages. Also, you flatter yourself if you think all my comments are directed at you. My comments about the FLW are directed to everyone else that care about tourney fishing in WI. Again, perception is driving all the major circuits to look at how the do things, at how the public views them. Not just the FLW, but they have taken greater steps thus far in trying to improve the image of their tournaments. Again, I attended two of the local hearings when they were held. Neither one I was at, did I hear any complaints about the tourney boats misconduct that you speak of. Not one. Why is that? I certainly didn't hear you speak up on it? Why is that? YA WHAT HE SAID!!!!!!!!!! FOLLOW THE MONEY!! | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | ALL THIS VENTING IS GOOD BUT.... is there someone at the state level we can pummel with out thaughts,,, ? that will understand our mission... sheps stuff is always good but they will throw his letters away and say he is on the FLW payrole, they might take Doc's letter into consideration as they my assume he as well educated as they are and might know what he is talking about.... i think they will throw out vikings stuff exept the part about willing to pay a small fee for biological programs,,, they would consider the rest be they already consider him to be a physical threat to there existance. then there is sunshine..... the name Sunshine reminds them of there childhood and there hippy parents lil nickname for them ,,,, this is good because he comes up with some good stuff,,,, as for me my letters will be burnt and tossed on the side due to spelling and grammer, fragmented run on sentances,,,, Jaymans stuff will be thrown out as he is noumber one,,, a man.... and not a spineless sheep,,, what can i say about Tyee... well in reading his posts it is evident to me that he subliminaly is telling us resistance is futile and we will be assimilated , deep down in side though he wishes the best to us somhow has come to the conclusion that this is more cut and dried than we would like to believe.... this is not good ,,, what to do ? what to do? i look to the govornor ,, and if thats the case ,, our fight is over... i dont know of one representitive with the power to stop it... the new appointed DNR secretary,,, its a start,, good luck... | ||
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| Brad B |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | "That's not the case. It's a more complex issue then that by far. It's stupid to think it is as simple as you described." Wow. You described it that way, not me. YOU said "It is also the concern of some of the resort owners whose customers don't come back and sight the tournament boats as the reason." I had the pleasure of talking to one of the resort owners for quite some time two springs ago. He was complaining about how poor his business was. He said that if the fishing was better, he'd be full. For him, it was pretty simple - if the fish are biting, his business is good. Never once in our 30 minute conversation did he mention tournaments. I say we pass a law that requires the fish to bite - that makes about as much sense as this law does. Then the resorts will be full, the guides will have business, and everyone will be happy. Well, almost everyone. | ||
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| Joel "Doc" Kunz |
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| Ohmigod Shep, you think the only double and triple dipping is done in the spring. Again, because I've had to interview people at the DNR for articles and have been asked to work on advisory committees at the DNR, I know from asking that the main concern over poaching on the system is what is done after the spawn. This because the fish are in the river system for such a short time compared to the months they roam in big schools on Poygan, Winneconne and Winnebago where anglers find many more limits then in the often difficult spring conditions. The "run" usually lasted for a few days and only a few anglers do very well during the up run. Also, the shacks are targets of enforcement and don't move much AND the number of people even willing to try and run a fish trap have dwindled to a few brave souls who I hope ALL get caught. Compare that with the number of anglers doing well on any given day on bago? Let's use the archives here to see the length and proficiency of good fishing on the system. As far as the personal attacks, I don't feel that believing a point of view is ridiculous or stupid is a personal attack, and if it is, it is not even in the "your grandma wore army boots" category of offensiveness. I did not insult your intelligence, physical stature or anything else, I just stated my opinion of the remark. Why would I want to insult you? I certainly did not intend to insult you. As an example, I was in a good storm recently and BARKED orders that kept an inexperienced friend IN the boat. Once safe, although I apologized and he knew I kept him from going overboard, he told me that he would have rather be tossed out of the boat, then to ever be talked to like that again. I can't explain that. Also Shap, as far as thinking everything you post is written to me. Where did you get that? Jeepers, calm yourself down a bit. Jayman, I agree with your post about the way this has all happened. It has taken too much and tried to group it in to one basket. Brad B, your new law requiring the fish to bite is the best suggestion that has been made and yes, it is almost as ridiculous as the need for legislation on water way use. I wonder if this would have been a simpler issue if there had not been so many changes in the way the DNR is run. | |||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | I got to thinking about those spring meetings and my first reaction was that these meetings are a sham. It's was apparent to me that the DNR does what they want regardless of the input they receive. That's pretty obvious! Then I realized that they take all comments in stride while finalizing their rulings. I guess what I am trying to say is that the DNR does not operate by a "majority rules" opinion poll taken from these meetings. Again, at first this really bothered me until I thought through the entire process and what sides of the fence I have been on in the past. Let me explain........ I remember going to the hearings when we were discussing the planting of walleyes in the Milwaukee River. As a member of the Milwaukee Chapter of Walleyes For Tomorrow I was all in favor of this occurring. I spoke on behalf of the walleye planting but I was a small minority. The trout and salmon captains were there in force. They spoke of the many reasons (in their minds) why this should not happen. I felt like this initiative was doomed because of the public outcry that occurred during these meetings. I was shocked and very happy that the DNR went on with this plan. They made some minor modifications from the original proposed ideas because of comments made but went forward because their ecological facts were sound and were in line with the DNR mission statement. Now, fast forward to the meetings regarding tournaments. Many of us showed up in opposition to the rulings just like the charter captains in the scenario above. We are a very vocal interest group just like those charter captains. I do not like what I think is about to happen but is there a scientific or ecological reason that the DNR is moving forward? These are the issues or facts that we must focus on. To have any success in this dialog before it becomes law, we must all focus on what is real versus what is perceived. We must remove our biases from the equation and we must refrain from emotional outbursts. Name calling or acting like children amongst ourselves does nothing but remove ourselves from the focus of the debate. Talking specifically about the Wolf River; the overcrowding there; the spawning run; the poaching; no wake issues; and driving too close to other boats does absolutely no good. WE ALL NEED (including me) to stay focused to the real issues and the ramifications of the proposed rulings. This is a STATE ruling not a bago problem. This effects all tournament organizers and tournament fishermen, not just walleye. Doesn't it have effects on bass, sheepshead, muskie and salmon tournaments? Aren't all organized tournaments in the same situation in regards to fees? I see no separation between charity functions and million dollar business. We are all in this together. I'm an optimist in heart but also believe that I am a realist. I do believe that if we give the right people the right facts about tournament fishing we will be heard. I believe that it is not too late. I believe that we will have about a 2-3 week window of opportunity to contact the right people. I believe that we need to be ready for when the "green paper" comes out. At that time, it will be imperative to contact those who will be voting with factual information. To succeed we must be ready. I would propose that we continue this conversation in earnest trying to look at the facts and coming up with a position paper that we can all use to write, call or make personal contacts with the powers to be. Is this possible? | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Dennis, It's nice to see that someone else understands the entirety of this situation. I don't know when this became a bago situation and maybe I am to blame but you are absolutely correct, this is a Statewide and even a Nationwide situation not just our favorite lake issue. EVERYONE is watching to see what we do. I had some pretty inteligent coversation (If you can believe that) with a few of our local wardens this weekend and to be quite honest, this is a tough call for them, they have to do something because legislature is forcing them into this and yet they want to do something as there are many issues they have to cover when working with our resources and the users of them, (not just the bodies of water but the species and the people.) I will tell you that the biggest concerns I got out of theses conversations were the invasive species. To put it mildely.....wait till spring! Lets see what happens to our populations. and watch how fast it spreads. It is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CONCERN they have right now and if a population situation arises you and I will both be glad they have the ability to say who what where and when a tournament can take place! That alone should be enough for everyone here to support these issues and start looking at the big picture, from Musky to shepshead everyone that sportfishes in WI should have some sort of big brother looking out for our fish, they sure as heck don't listen to me or you and if not us who should it be, I am in total disagreement of allowing billy bobs boat tourney to be self governed as much as I am against big business corporations governing themselves although they do a much better job of it. It is critical that the stewards of the resource be someone we all agree should do that job and in my simple mind who better than the DNR it doesn't matter what side of the fence your on. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | billy bobs tournament self governed? even if billy bob himself fishes in his own tournament he must follow wisconsin and dnr laws as it partains to fishing regulation or safty to himself and others... billy bobs bar doesnt change the rules because he has a tournament... the state is changing the rules on him... and changing them to make rules for Billy Bob to follow that nobody else using the resource has to follow.... billy bobs getting the shaft ,, billybobs neibor went out fishing the same morning . billybobs neighbor got to bring home a larger bag limmit for the day ,,, last year Billy bob had to register his little tournament made up of individual anglers all responsible for themselves ,, billy bob gave the state what they wanted and now the state wants to charge billybob and all the individual anglers who already pay there fees to fish in the state and charge them extra to fish that day,, the state has a head count ,, the state has a record of participation and the state can now dictate weather or not billybob gets a permit or not based on payment (payoff) to the propper athority.. NO PAY << NO PLAY>>>> simple,,, so much for being articulate and civil. this is a tax,,, there is no vote no representation. just the state turning our resource into a revinue source to be used by an agency that has all the power they want to take... nice... as far as invasives ,, we were told wait till fall,,, now we need to wait til spring... im sure there just going to pass this expence on us too... or whom ever they want too... what choice do we have... our state spends tax dollars putting a collar on a canadian goose ,,, if you shoot a marked bird you can turn it in for cash... a-lot of cash... a-lot of marked birds,,, how much did it cost to mark them? how much is being paid out ? HOW MUCH OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IS BEING SPENT ON FLYING PIGS.....? THIS IS CRAP,, IF YOU DONT WANT THE OVERPOPULATION.. THEN LET PEOPLE SHOOT AS MANY AS THEY WANT? THESE ARE THE THINGS THE TIC ME OFF... ITS NOT THERE MONEY TO GIVE AWAY ITS YOURS AND MINE !!!!!!!!! CIVIL DEBATE ... WHAT WILL IT GET US... THE SHAFT... AGIAN.. AND AGAIN.. | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | LOOK it s easy for me to dump on the state and the DNR but take a look at this large opperation... lets face it,,, its not all made up of your typical uw stevens point grad,,,, they wardens out working the public sector are trying to maintain a good relaitonship with the sportsman as well as the land owners.. trying to stop the things like overbaggin and potching and violations... they are trying to stress safty and incurage peple to follow the rules... awarness of invasives and the damages caused ,,, and then go to the top of the pile... made up of people who also care about our invironment and recource,,, but ... there day is tied up with political agenda's big corperations, ground water , farm issues, heavy pressure from the federal government on how to regulate our state... polutions , the green crowd, the governors idias, and things that make our little cry for fairness look trivial... these are people who are getting bombarded by some major influences some real power,,,, and then act as gate keepers,,, im sure there day at work isnt much fun either,, although i look at the appointed top DNR representitives and wonder if they have time to deal with our little battle ... its a shame... they are faced with a budget and too many places that are screaming for attn. to many with there hands out... to many complaining about the next guy,,, too many trying to advance there agenda , just frustraiting as i sit and seperate myaluminum from my plastic bottles and news papper,,, frustration as i think illinois is still sending there garbage to wisonsin land fills... frustrated that all the power our state generates and is cooled and monitored by our resources is being sold out of state , just seems like everything is for sale... its a shame.. we the good folks of wisconsin should be a little better off.... | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Take a deep breath Bradley, Look at the other users that profit from the resource, take the comercial fishermen for example, they pay to profit from their resource, 100.00 for a shot at making $130,000 in one day in Alaska, or the guy supplying you your perch dinner Friday night, less we forget the nice grouper we had when out with the wife last month or the many other "fish" that are harvested for profit! these programs cost money to be managed, A couple bucks from a tournament participant won't hurt the director nor our 1 mpg boats. As a sportsman I always consider the other users, I don't have to like it but then again they don't have to like what I do either. Good luck Tyee | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | i know tyee... i just fail to see the real money in this industry,, i braught back the thread pole that showes how much these guys spend to go fishing for a day,,, this is a big part of the states revinue and 100 % of what a guy spends to fish being a tournament or just a day of fishing with the family is already taxed hard... not just taxted as income earned but also at the state level in a hefty gas tax and sales tax and other not hidden but lets just say nominal fees... just gets a bit old,,, ill pay for a stamp if i have too.. what am i gonna do ,,, but also need one for my son as he will fish with me a few times,, and my wife needs a stamp as she wants to do a small bar tourny we do every year togather.. so now i buy 3 stamps ,, and im sure it wont be 5 bucks.... it will be 20 im sure .... im sure the entry fee will go up a bit to offset the fee increase at the director level and so on... hey im thinking a half dozen tournaments might cost me around200.00 in a state that after you add up all your taxes you already end up paying about 50% of your income in direct taxes and hiddne taxes on perchases and fees that means that 200.00 bill will actualy be a 400.00 bill gross income. this is my point tyee.. its not just what the fee is for ,, and the warm fuzzy place its going to go ,, the good of our fishing recources ,, it going to go to the same place the rest of it is going.. add it up im not just worked up about this little plan from our state officials its this one combines with the other 100 little fee and tax idias they come up with to nickle and dime us.. look at the bigger picture , you all bring up the big picture ,, the big picture is that they already get a bazillion dollars in revinue,, where does it go? and where will the million go? i know where it comes from ,,, comes from our wallet... and im sure it will be spent on all the things tournament anglers want because thats where it came from... what are they going to do with the money put another 50 parking stalls and ramps in at the popular tourny locations maybe... stock the popular destinations with fish ? put 50 employees on the payroll to show up at the tournaments with release boats and tanks ... let me guess they will have there own tournament every year and call up all the winners .. along with a W2 they will get an invition to the state championship everyyear and a chance to win back what they spent for the year on fishing... ? sory for the sarcasm but just dont want the state to add more fees for this and that ,,, look at what they added for fees covering the whole state for 2007 not fishing stuff every day stuff that we all use.... tell me where it will end? that why im upset tyee.. i know we all care a great deal for our state and waters but they use our love for our recource to take advantage of us... its not ethical... | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | TAX THE RICH, FEED THE POOR!!! Maybe we should teach the poor how to fish instead of implementing a new tax on the ones that already know how to fish? Edited by Jayman 10/8/2007 4:01 PM | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | as for makeing 130000 a day in alaska,,, did you watch the dangerest catch? how much does a ship cost and how much would insurence on a ship that is used up there cost if you could get it ... and how many are lost? im sure there making people wealthy at that kind of income and a few rich.. but they also have a permit system now and the bulk of the fleet is now gone... who gets the permits is dictated by the powers that be...this is how great socialist governments fall,,, know your history,,, it starts with power,, then with power comes the curruption... how many road builders get state contracts ? who are the players? why does a company have to give both political candidates running for the same seat a milliion dollars .... now im getting carried away a bit for a small fishing fee but with regulation comes more power and with that will come favoritizm... human nature.. you ask for a big picture. the intention may be good by the supporters of this program but the intention of the state is for one thing... revinue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wake up! why are the locks opening with all the invasives at our doorstep on the baggo chain... hmmm ? revinue? no cant see how they can offset the expence of operation and maintananc with what can be collected ... hmmm must be a small group with power than.... somone is buying someone off... and if invasives were so important they wouldnt be comming in second to locks opening or some shipping regulation.... big picture makes me second guess the intention of this new regulations warm fuzzy well meaning objective.. ok so they can start with a cool million in revinue from all the bass and walleye and musky guys and there clubs... fees can be raised later.. permits can be held over the heads of the highest bidder... wait till the small mouth poputlation double 3 more times on the baggo chain... they seem to be taking off... and the musky guys are salivating over the future of the system... wait till all three groups are applying for permits give it another 10 years... | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | wow thanks for letting me know im made of money.... i have to go now... im gonna order me up a new Ranger 621 with hell i dont know the biggest opti pro xs i can get on one side and heck ill put the big Rude dude on the other side and then im gonna order up two of the new 19 inch flat screen laurance units and add the radar so i can spy on all the little people ,,, im gonna send in all my entry fees now so i can get boat noumber 1 in all the tournys i wanna fish... send in for all of them and sort em out later.... heck i dont know what this stamp will cost .... ill just send in a grand just in case.... oh ya im gonna need a matching truck too... hmmm? do they make a Hummer XL or should i just pimp out an escalade ... i dint know i had all this spare cash,,, thanks for reminding me i shouldnt be so cheep all the time ... even though im crabby now i do think you guys are the best... just want you to know i wont forget the little people .................. oh crap is today the 8th? ............. oh crap..... i have the wrong power ball ticket.. i was looking at last weds winning noumbers... oh well almost done at work today,,, gotta go home and have my spagettieO's life is good , got meatballs in em... wooooooohooooooooo | ||
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