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| As we all know, Mr. Keenan won a very big RCL tournament last year. He got a nice payday out of it, as did Mr. Plautz in the PWT. I was wondering what some of you thought about this question. When dealing with sponsors, or endorsment contracts, how long does that win carry full weight? How long till the sponsors feel the marketing value of that win starts to decrease, and thus what they are willing to pay you because of that win?
I might be wrong here, but I would think that if they have not capitalized (contracts) on those wins already, they won't get as much for them later. I know they are good for the resume, but I'm talking direct influence.
What do you guys think? |
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| I have a couple of buddies who each had a super year in the PWT, but lived out in the middle of nowhere. The phone didn't ring.
As more years went by and they kept doing well, the phone started to ring, but it was "return" calls from potential sponsors whom they had contacted.
You have to go after it even if you have won a couple big tournies. Your fishing skills aren't nearly as important as your people skills. If you go win a big tourney, it still doesn't translate into spin-off money. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Jack,
I agree with you. When dealing with sponsors, if they have not capitalized (contracts) on those wins already, they won't get as much for them later.
Many touring Pro’s have incentives built into their contracts and if these individuals were lucky (or smart enough) to have these, they are already taken care of (to a point).
Too many people have the belief that once they win, the sponsors will knock each other over to get them signed up or give them better deals. It doesn’t really work that way. You still need to show them how your win will give them more exposure and a better market share. Their work on getting more out of that win is intensified and being a good self-promoter and businessman becomes more important now than ever. IMHO, they will need to take advantage of the moment to get more presentations at prestigious gigs, more articles written and hopefully some ads in national mags.
Bottom line, you still need to show how additional exposure will show benefits for them.
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Really don't know anything about this, but will say being in the top ten would be fine with me!  |
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Location: Lake Vermilion Tower,MN | Winning tournaments makes it much easier to get in the door, but you still need to sell yourself.
I just can't imagine however, that winning the RCL Championship still wouldn't open some very big doors for a few years at least.
There are guys on TV all the time that haven't won a tournament in years, they made the best of their
opportunity and now their selling themselves. |
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Location: Rhinelander | From the perspective of the Sponsor, winning a big event is a good thing, but not the do all end all. The actual impact of a Championship win lasts a few months. By then a new year is underway, and the 'old' champion is pretty much expected to fall. CONSISTENCY is the key, coupled with superb marketing skills and concepts.
The companies I have worked for searched out anglers who would hold the company branding as paramount, and who 'get it' that the contract between the company and the Pro is a mutual agreement to promote what the angler can do for the Brand. If the angler does little, the Sponsor has little to work with, win or lose. The successful Pro understands his/her image is a PRODUCT, and is totally committed to creating the best relationship between that product, the sponsor, and the public that is possible.
Win or lose, an opportunity to promote passed up is forever lost to both the Pro and his/her sponsors. An opportunity (Not necessarily a win, either) capitalized upon and properly promoted, can do more for the Pro with the public, the brand represented, and the sponsor than the actual win ever will by itself.
Quick, who won the PWT Championship in 2002? 2001? How about 1999?
Quick again, who holds the World Walleye ranking Number ONE Spot right now? |
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| Originally written by sworrall on 2004-01-18 11:47 PM
From the perspective of the Sponsor, winning a big event is a good thing, but not the do all end all. The actual impact of a Championship win lasts a few months. By then a new year is underway, and the 'old' champion is pretty much expected to fall. CONSISTENCY is the key, coupled with superb marketing skills and concepts.
The companies I have worked for searched out anglers who would hold the company branding as paramount, and who 'get it' that the contract between the company and the Pro is a mutual agreement to promote what the angler can do for the Brand. If the angler does little, the Sponsor has little to work with, win or lose. The successful Pro understands his/her image is a PRODUCT, and is totally committed to creating the best relationship between that product, the sponsor, and the public that is possible.
Win or lose, an opportunity to promote passed up is forever lost to both the Pro and his/her sponsors. An opportunity (Not necessarily a win, either) capitalized upon and properly promoted, can do more for the Pro with the public, the brand represented, and the sponsor than the actual win ever will by itself.
Quick, who won the PWT Championship in 2002? 2001? How about 1999?
Quick again, who holds the World Walleye ranking Number ONE Spot right now?
Touche`! Well worded and to the point! Thank You!
Edited by JLDII 1/19/2004 12:14 AM
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | 2002 winner-Keith Kavajecz
2001 winner-Mike Gofron
2000 winner-Ron Seelhoff
Number one ranking-again, Keith Kavajecz.
I talk with Dan Plautz 2-3 times a week, as I am lucky enough to call him one of my fishing partners. There are things we have discussed that I cannot divulge, but I can tell you that winning an event like the PWT Championship is lucrative. It's a matter of whose hands it falls into and how they play that hand.
Not to play name dropper, but Mike Gofron is also a good friend of mine. He is quite active in the seminar speaking tour and does quite well for himself because of his ability to speak and fish. However, the PWT championship win wasn't nearly as lucrative as it could be. Why, you might ask? Think of the timing......he won on 9/14/01....yes, three days after the 9/11 tragedy. Due to economic restraints, there weren't alot of companies banging at his door, looking to hand over big $$$ for fishing related things.
In 1999 (I think), Ted Takasaki won the PWT championship. This is not first hand info like the other stuff, but I heard that win was worth about $1 million to him. Ted, if you've heard him talk, is a first rate promoter, along with being a top notch stick on the water.
The common thread behind all of this is: Timing is everything. If one gets to the top and can parlay it with speaking engagements and endorsements, they can set themsleves up for life. I just hope that someday I can grab a piece of that pie...) |
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| Jerry, No arguement intended, but Ted might account part of that large amount of earnings to the fact that he is president of Lindy Lil' Joe also. That does carry alot of marketing value which could lend itself to his personal earnings, not to mention what it might do for the company, and thus his contract as president also. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Yes, Jack, that is true. As I think back, he won the PWT in 98, as Seelhoff won back to back in 99 and 2000.
As for Ted's income and being President of Lindy/Little Joe: I think this job he took was in the negotiation stages before he won. When he won, Lindy took advantage of it, as did Ted. Good promotional move by both parties, I'd say. |
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| Think maybe I can have a say here? Hehehe
Really, none of this will "set one up for life". Doing well in tournament fishing and "making promotional hay" from the action is really alot of hard work mixing in a whole lot of luck.
If you spent the same enthusiasm and hard work on your current means to make an income, one could enjoy just as much, and most often more, rewards than most promotional tournament anglers will ever get.
So my point is; if you want to set yourself up for life - it may be easier to win the lottery and get paid 20,000 a month forever. Otherwise, the only extra to being a successful tournament fisherman is if you enjoy the recognition from fellow anglers.
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Rick,
I agree with some of what you say and some I do not. Let me explain.
There are only a handful of fisherman who are "making it"....i.e., fishing is their only source of income. These guys are the ones who have won major events. When I say things like "lucrative" and "set up for life", I am referring to the fact that they get to do just fishing to earn a living. It is what they worked for, what they desired, and, because of a major tournament win or circuit win, they have achieved it.
I do not claim by any means that they could not choose another career path and still have a similar income. The rewards, as you call them, are that these guys have a job that they love in a field that they want to be in. Not to mention the financial gain from being a sponsored individual.
At this time, to my knowledge, there are about a dozen walleye tournament fisherman who are making a six figure salary from fishing. This is without any prize money they might make. It isn't hard to figure out who these guys are. They've been in the game since the beginning and have paid their dues. I'd say that the "extra" they've earned is more significant than the respect of their fellow anglers.
Edited by jerry 1/19/2004 6:20 PM
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Thats a good thoughtful response jerry.
I have been "exposed" (it is a pun) to enough young hopefuls who believe the path to the top is to simply hop on the ski lift and just ride it up. Man, this is very far from the truth (there is no lift and the ski hill is very slippery!).
Now before you dismiss this as a smart statement, will qualify myself as owning a business that was started at an opportune time when the law changed in my favor and there was no established competition. This really is the reason my business thrives today.
My business experience can be laid right on top of the tournament phenomenon. There are a few anglers from the beginning (when there was no established competition) that had the right timing and distinguished themselves from the rest of the starters. And through many hours of hard work and many hours of traveling from home, have become the "establishment" of the promoting tournament anglers.
They have the odds in their favor for gaining the right (getting paid money) sponsorship, gaining inside information because of their status, and winning tournaments because of their long and vast experience.
Now that doesn't mean a beautiful-faced young man with the gift to smooze the masses won't come along and take the fishing tournament scene by storm. Thereby gaining much attention and support from enough to also succeed in winning money in tournaments.
Could happen.
But for the rest of us to think we can mimic the few at the top and make enough to quit our jobs and leave home for the easy life of a promoting tournament angler is just a pipe dream.
So (again its just my opinion), anyone who has a good job and wants to fish tournaments, should put the number one priority on the job and use the money earned to pay the boat payment and the entry fee to the contests.
And who knows, after a dozen years of proving yourself, you may get a few baits for free.
Edited by Rick Larson 1/19/2004 8:09 PM
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| Jerry,
Even saying 12 might be stretching it a bit. Of course, we have to keep in mind all the non-fishing asspects of the success these individuals have also. These men don't just pack their bags and fly south when the slow flies and ride out the winter in some warm weather location. Some are helping with product development, advertising ads, photo shoots, lectures, seminars, and fullfilling endorsment obligations. Traveling all across the country. To some degree, their return for a good job fishing involves a bigger committment of time outside the boat. Often other peoples jobs revolve around that persons success, such as business agents, and the employees of the companies he represents. Some where along the line, those successes they have had, become the chain that holds them almost as a slave to the industry. So, while they might be set, they are still under the gun to produce, but in another manner than fishing.
In the end, tournament fishing is simply a stepping stone to a marketing career. If you want to earn a living fishing and not be tied down to the marketing aspect, you will be much happier as a guide or charter captain. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Well said Jack. A few of the folks that I talk to who have "made it" always mention that they always look forward to the season starting again because of the grueling work load of the off season. Too many towns, too many boat/sport shows, too many appearances, too many articles to write....... you get the idea.
That free boat or free motor isn't really free. It was paid with sweat and blood. Those that have those lucritive contracts that you speak of (6 figures) are a very very small minority and they work harder than anyone can imagine for the pay. You can say that over and over and for some reason most people don't get it until they try it.
I think the main reason for the misconceptions about the "free ride" stem from two reasons. 1). the non-disclosure agreements that many of us sign prohibit us from sharing our "deals". And secondly, people assume that when we wear a patch or have a decal on our boat/truck that the product was free and with no strings attached. Nothing could be further from the truth with "most" tournament fishermen. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Jack and Sunshine, I agree.....there is a price to pay, with appearances and always having to be "on" for the fishing public. Obviously, those that chose this lifestyle do so because they enjoy it.
As for the 12 or so who are making it, I think it is a low end estimate. Granted, everyone's definition of "making it" is different, but some may have goals of just being able to fish and afford their expenses, as they have spouses who have good careers, which allows them to pursue their dream. As I think about it, I can think of at least 15 who fit this category. |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Well put Jerry. There are many whose goals are to just fish and afford their expenses, not to make 6 figures. I will not mention a name here but I just had a conversation with someone like that at the Milwaukee boat show. This person guides and then makes (his estimate) about $30,000 a year in tournaments. After expenses it's a meager income (my opinion) but he is very happy. |
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It really is funny watching (through my eyes) all the little characters who make up this fishing industry.
The first, and deserving the most respect, is those who guide for a living. Everyday they must come to grips with the fishing public market, and need to adjust their attitude accordingly. Not only this, but they are on the front line giving personal instruction on how to use fishing products.
Going from these guys are the honest tournament promoters. They will always tell it like it is and be interesting and entertaining, no matter what outcome they had on the tournament trail. These guys work hard for their position and deserve much credit.
Then, there are those that manage a living fishing tournaments without alot of sponsorship. They often have outside jobs to supplement their income, also having to prove themselves often.
And finally, its the manufacturers that need some recognition in this deal. They must meet the demands of the fishing public through innovation. Products must be appealing to the public (marketable), be affordable (tightly control their costs), and catch fish (critters that will tug on your line).
Much Kudos to these individuals and companies.
In the middle, one will find those that can afford to participate in tournaments, and are mostly the retail customer to the whole affair (guys like me). Followed by the mass of non-tournament customers.
Then we get to the seedy side of this tournament phenomenon.
The many individuals who really can't afford to spend the 50 grand on all the trappings needed to half/way compete in these tournaments, but get sucked into the idea that they can win and will be marketable. Often they become overly aggressive in their tactics and become the bullys of the water thinking they have sole right to "a spot" on public water, and other tactics more attuned to giving false rumors of those they consider competition. All in response to the pressure of having to win in able to pay for the mess they find themselves in.
Those responsible for selling these poor saps all this stuff should take the blame, as they use these hopes to sell their wares. Some of these promoters should be jailed.
Then finally, the seediest character of all is those promoting tournament anglers who have the win at all costs attitude. They often use subterfuge and deceit to trip up their unwary opponents and think nothing of getting on the stage and holding a picture of him/herself with a big fish - claiming to all who would listen - they have caught the fish on their sponsors bait, using their sponsors boat and motor, while fishing out of their sponsors resort. When all the while the fish was caught by someone else, on a different lake, using something other than their sponsors product.
I could tell you what I think should be done with this ilk, but only in private.
So to really get down to the question, each of the described above will have a different way of "Valuing" a tournament win. At one extreme, some will immortalize themselves in it (you'all can guess where that leads). While on the other, they will just take great personal satisfaction that they were on the top, even if for a short time.
One part of it that is certain, the effect of public notice is very fleeting, but can have a long term "residue" effect amongst a few who take personal notice of the winner - should he/she be honest and fair in all their dealings.
Otherwise, it is what the winners purse is.
Edited by Rick Larson 1/20/2004 9:02 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Rick, just a point or two. EVERY one of the anglers out on the Pro circuits had BETTER believe they can win, and had BETTER believe they can be marketable. Self assured destiny that one is going to lose does not a good start make.
No one forces any of the anglers out there to sign the check for a circuit or the needed equipment, that pen is in the angler's hand alone. If you come to a sponsor or promoter and tell them you want to fish the entire PWT, and want a deal on a product in exchange for the promotion you provide, then allow that you have the money to buy what it is you want, they are going to sell it to you. It is not their position or RIGHT to question your condition or motivation, it is their job to give you what you want.
If winning is paramount to the angler, so be it. The varied behaviors you describe are not unique to competitive angling, those are and will forever be basic human nature. Put 400 anglers together, and one might expect the representation of every personality type, emotional state, and human condition there is. Dealing well with THAT is what makes some Tournament Directors near saints, IMHO.
I have been around the business since competitive walleye angling started, and have seen about all there is to see. I have never seen a promoter schnooker some poor, unsuspecting, underfunded angler into fishing a circuit. What I have seen are the anglers who want a shot at the brass ring whether they can actually afford the trip there or not.
I've never yet had anyone who is selling me a something I have indicated I WANT ask if I am being fiscally wise or using good sense buying the product.
Many approach the sponsor with that desire. The sponsor then has two paths; Tell the angler to forget it, the dream is just that. OR: Tell the angler the truth. It is ANYBODY'S game. There will be those who succeed big time, and those who do not, just like any other competitive sport. Skill, knowledge, and the ability to apply those two will get an angler a long way, and 'learning the game' will get them through the rest. Decrying the reality that there IS a game to learn won't help. In short, about trusting the information or word of competing anglers? Trust everyone, but brand your cattle. I would expect nothing less, or more.
If one allows a position in the competitive walleye angling 'pecking order' to be established, then it would, I would assume, be wise to place that position as close to the top as possible. Best trick is to avoid that condition entirely, succeeding or failing at any one event standing on one's merits, and behaving up to one's best personal standards. I believe they call the Pros who accomplish this balancing act 'nice guys'. Contrary to popular belief, sometimes nice guys DO win. |
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Ooooouuuuu. Really got your attention with that one! OK, I stand to change my thinking - at least a little bit.
Anyone ever tell you how high your writing skills are?
Edited by Rick Larson 1/20/2004 2:07 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Rick,
Ever hear of SRA? The wonderful folks who supported that particularly odd reading/writing educational style sent me through that program all the way from 3rd grade to High School graduation.  |
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