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Location: Rockford MN | I think that has been left up to the organizations that run the model for us the product. So they have made the labels as to what level we are on. So far atleast. Is that what you were getting at Steve? |
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| I think it's very simple. A walleye pro (on a competitive angling level, I assume that's what we are talking about) is someone who fishes either the entire FLW Walleye Tour, the entire PWT Regional Division, or the entire PWT Super Pro Division. There's 4 tournaments in each of these circuits. |
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| Boy Gordy if you think this is bad you should see what is going on Right now with the dividing up between two organizations of the Bass Fedration... I think a guys gonna need a bullet proof vest pretty soon, and even though that is a slight exageration it is getting Pretty Sad. I agree with you about the expansion of the sport whether it is for weekend fishing or tournaments. My son who has decided to come back to tourneys and I were just discussing where some middle of the roaders as a Team,(triple AAA ers), go to compete in a national series as a team that has a true national championship with real rewards. Guys can say what they want about the old USFA Team walleye, and things might not have worked out for Bernie in The GNWC but they were where Brian and I belonged. Quite honestly as a team at this point I believe the MWC is way out of our league so we find ourselves right now Plannning to fish a series with Steve over at WWA,(great teams just not quite the same equipment requirement... I fish tourneys right now out of my 16'9" guide boat with a 30 or 50 on it), hoping that now that he has a clear field ahead with little competition that it will evolve into what we are looking for. I have never had a better fishing tournament experience in my life than when we fished his division of USFA Team Walleye. But in reality this year we are putting most of our eggs in the "Bass Basket". Right now 4 or more legitimate national Team series , with legitimate NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS, and legitimate rewards at their national championship have divisions right here at home in the La Crosse area.. I wish I could say that about Walleye fishing Tournaments. If I had the choice between how big and how many compared to can you trick these suckers into biting at all,( Bass VS Walleye), in these conditions with the three criteria met above I would take the hardbitters. ( again this is my opinion... please don't anybody start a battle over whether my decriptions of the two fish are right or wrong)
Jayman you are right ::: as I mentioned in a post above even websters dictionary in its many definitions of Professional has many more regarding "how or the quality of how a task is done" than the financial rewards or making a living aspect. Again I was just saying what I perceived as my definition of A WALLEYE PRO ... I may fish like a god, but contrary to what some people think I don't think I'm God,( to quote an past tournament partner " a know it all"...) its just an opinion.
I've been fishing for 46 years, competing in some type of competion for 20+ and guiding for about 16 years now and sometimes maybe I have way, way, Way, Way to much time on my hands to think about this and it shows up in my posts. A close freind of mind says I have a "Terminal case of the Rush Limbaugh Syndrome" but there I went and opened up another can of worms didn't I ... what a troublemaker.
LOL. |
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| Lawrence,
Thanks, and for the record in no way was my post aimed specifically at you or anyone else for that matter. Just a question to the topic at hand.
Zach, I think you nailed it as it is now status quo. I'm sure there are some MWC people who would consider themselves a "pro" as well as some guides.
I've always considered the financial part of being a professional, but have discounted that idea and it has been debated on many website what a pro is. But I'm finding more and more the people I consider "professionals" are the people I hold in high regard, they are the people who are knowledgeable in the subject of walleyes and to be a touring pro would be some whose knowledgeable in tournament walleye fishing. But at the same time I've met some very good quality guides over the years who put a prioity on guiding vs tournaments that I would hold in high regard, are they the best fishermen in the walleye world? Maybe, probably not. But they are the people that contribute to the sport in a positive manner. They are the ones actively seeking the future generations of walleye fishing. Those are the people I consider "professionals". So to me a Walleye pro is not the guy with a lot of money, not the guy with a bunch of patches on his shirt, not the guy they has the "great prostaff deal". It's the people that make a positive impact in the world of walleye fishing whether it be tournaments or just a day on the water. I've been called a cynic in the past, but to me it seems harder and harder to find these walleye pros. Am I walleye Pro? Absolutely not, but maybe, just maybe, some day I will. |
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Location: Berlin | Good lord, my head is spinning. The day I start worrying about if I am a pro or not is the day I give up tournament fishing.
With the way this discussion has gone in the past I am really surprised it was brought up again. My answer to the quesion, it has no answer nor will it ever have an answer. This discussion is not good for the future of fishing. How is this going to get new blood involved in fishing? Some 12 year old kid gets on here because he has an interest in fishing tournaments when he is older......WELL NOT ANY MORE!
I will NEVER call myself a professional. I don't feel it is a self-appointed title. It is a title given to you. Hopefully by someone whom you respect. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The argument could, and should include the fisherman of the FLW walleye league as well. WHY? well, they have a 4 tournament circuit. They have a pro/am format. If we are to consider the other 3 circuits as pro because of this criteria, then the league fisherman should be in this group as well. After all, IN The other 3 circuits, the fisherman who patronize these circuits, could of, and in the future will probably, come from the league. Its a fine place to "Cut Teeth" if you will. Most of the guys who fish the league have moved to the pro/am's from the team circuits. We are getting closer and closer to developing a "Pecking order" in the walleye world. Bass and the FLW Bass do this already. Not comparing US to THEM but it is a system that works. I would like to see a baseball style rank. A to AA to AAA to majors and that would be the AL and NL. Of course the FLW would be the AL and the NL would be the PWT as that is often referred to as the senior circuit. Both leagues could have a super circuit if they choose. A finishing point. Or the elite could be the majors, but you get my drift. We could then decipher the word PRO. You have the right to call your self a pro if you patronize the complete schedule set forth by any one of these levels. Not just one here and there. If you only fished one here and one there, you would be fishing SOME pro tourneys but not a actual "Card Carrying" PRO.
Edited by stacker 3/9/2006 5:30 PM
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| Lena,
That was very well said. |
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| AMEN Rich!!! bout time someone said it!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| What about the other side of being a pro? Not by a title but by your actions? Good and bad. I think that the vast majority of touring pros do a good job of conducting themselves on and off the water and didn't matter if they were in a tournement or not. But like all groups there are bad examples. These are the guys that want all of the good things that come from being a pro but when they set a bad example they don't want to admit to it or answer to the critisism. I have seen some pros act like complete jerks on the water and off of it. There actions seem to undo alot of the good work done by other touring fishermen but these same guys don't take responsibilty for it. I believe if you want the spot light and all the benifits that go with it you better be willing to own up to your actions when you set a bad example.
Having said that I think that the other pros who see these actions and don't say any thing are only hurting themselves and the sport. I am not just talking about the bigger issues but the small ones as well. For example, such things as tailpiping during a tournement and during prefishing doesn't show who the best fisherman is just who has the best spoting scope.
Like I said before there are alot of good pros who are doing it right but the one that aren't are the ones that you remember. |
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Location: Jackson, Wisconsin 53037 | The way I look at it is, once you cash a check,, you should be considered a pro. Reason being, any other sport that you do win money, or get paid, you are considered a professional. If you get compensated or win, trophies or plaques, you are considered an amateur.
Stacker, I agree if you fish the FLW league, you should be considered a pro. I look at it as baseball, you have single A, Double A, and Triple A, then the majors. The FLW league, to me, is Triple A. The smaller circuits, like the MWS, WWA and so on, double A, and the bar tourneys, single A. Don't take that the wrong way, there are very good sticks that fish all 3. It just comes down to the money issue, and what you can afford. Once you get to the PWT or the FLW tour, you should be considered in the Majors.
Guest, it is unfortunate that the ones that act up and are total jerks do get alot of press, and the general public looks down on the tournament fisherman. You have that in other sports, as well. In the NFL you have Terrell Owens, basketball, you have Ron Artest, the list could go on and on. I will say, before I got in this business, I thought all tournament fisherman were total jerks, that wouldn't give anybody the time of day. Well, I was 100% wrong. All the guys that fish the two big tours, that I have approached, emailed, or even contacted by phone have been more than helpfull, and more than willing to help. The jerks that I have come in contact with, were fishing the smaller circuits.
That's why, when I have read other posts that say the old timers just want to protect themselves, I have to laugh, because it is so wrong. They actually welcome the newer guys. Reason being, it will help elevate the sport, and if the newer guys are getting the money, the guys that have been around will make more money. |
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| My experience have come from both the pwt and flw. Last year I was fishing a small tourny on Devils Lake and the flw pros were prefishing. They had no way of knowing that we had a tourny going on but the attitude that I got from a couple of these guys and gals was unbelievable. Also it has happened to me with the pwt guys. Like I said in my last post. THese guys are the ones that get remembered. I am not of sure of these peoples names from the flw but I know the names of the guys from the pwt. But at these same events I meet some other pros at the dock. They had come over to see how we did and we just started b/s and stood there and talked for an hour. They asked if I wanted to fish with them the next day. Said we could stay in there room with them. But I had to get back home and had a 3 hour drive. We had a great day of fishing with a lot of big fish and gave these guys all the info we had plus gps cord. I think one guy was in the top 10 and the other was in the top 20. Not sure if they fished our spot or not and it doesn't matter. I was just happy to help a couple of really nice guys. And in my book TRUE PROS. |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | In the end I'm all for total growth in the sport and in tournaments. I just wish some would see the whole picture and not just what good for them now. The NPAA has done some good things for the sport, I just wish some people would not use it as a platform for there personal goals over the goals of the sport and what the NPAA was founded for. I hope that makes sense to you?
Gordy,(your words above)
The one thing I like about your posts...you have passion for what it is you do and think. That's an asset!
But YOUR philosophy about the direction of the NPAA and competitve fishing in general, is wrong. Using your "model", I, nor most anyone who has been connected to growing a sport to PGA/Nascar levels, can't see how ANY of the sports such as golf, Nascar, tennis, bowling, rodeo and so on would EVER reach the levels they have.
Baseball, baskeball and football at the highest levels as we know them went through these same growing pains. These same debates, led by competitor based organizations, evolved into major league sports as we know them today. The good, the bad and the ugly all played key roles in the end. In the end, the sports ARE limited to who can play at the highest levels based not only on talent but the avenue they took to get there. Competitve fishing today is where these sports were, in some cases, more than 50 years ago.
As far as your opinion or view of how the NPAA operates, well, that's your opinion. But I think you have developed that based on anything but reality and by NOT closely interacting within the organization.
Keep up the passion! All good, well intended, goal based debates need that.
My answer to the origin of this thread? Like in ALL careers, businesses, sports etc., a professional fisherman is one who makes his main living from all aspects of the sport...on and off the playing field.
As I have invited you in the past, feel free to call or stop by the north shore and "discuss" this anytime! (I won't post on this thread again...)
Steve Fellegy
NPAA #49
Edited by Steve Fellegy 3/10/2006 6:40 AM
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Location: Sheboygan,WI | Sorry but I can't see how you would consider the FLW league as a pro circuit but not the MWC. I believe it is not about what circuit you fish. What defines the word pro is someone who is making a living professionally fishing. Not just tournies but seminars, sport shows and sponsors. That in my opinion is a pro. Just because someone pays the entrys to a circuit surely doesn't make them a pro! |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | WalleyeFIRST - 3/9/2006 12:28 PM
I think it's very simple. A walleye pro (on a competitive angling level, I assume that's what we are talking about) is someone who fishes either the entire FLW Walleye Tour, the entire PWT Regional Division, or the entire PWT Super Pro Division. There's 4 tournaments in each of these circuits.
Russell, My reply was in response to WF's statement of who a pro is. Did I leave out the MWC? just wondering, what is wrong with the league? |
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Location: Sheboygan,WI | stacker i just feel storngly that guys pay there entry into a circuit and magiacly they are a pro walleye fisherman. No matter what circuit you fish just fishing that circuit makes you no more of a pro than the guys who fish the mws or wwa. Making a living in the fishing industry makes you a pofessional. |
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| I think the term is used very loose and that's fine. Whatever makes you happy! I think if you defined it by 'Walleye Tournament Pro" or "Pro Walleye Guide" or "Pro Walleye Fishing Promoter", then you'd have clear honest professions. I think it is fine to fish tournaments as a hobby and if you come out ahead a few grand a year to call yourself a semi pro. I for one will not be offended by someone not using exact terminology. It is specific thinking that creates so much political correctness that we have to have a disclaimer for everything that comes out of our mouth.  I am a 70% Professional Sales Manager, 21% Semi Professional Fishing Guide, 4% Semi Professional Outdoor Writer, 4% Semi Professional Speaker and 1% Semi Professional Product Demonstrator. **Note: These calculations are subject to change at any time without notice. To ensure integrity there will be a fiscal quarterly public announcement on the percentages but not until reviewed by a comittee and notarized under the supervision of a legal attorney. |
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| There were three "touring pros" that fished the MWS May 22 out of Green Bay.They had just finished fishing the FLW from Wed. May18-Sat. May 21. They finished 2nd,17th,and 64th in the FLW Tour, and 49th,52nd,and 56th in the MWS.These pro's are great sticks give them their due, i just want to make sure the weekend guys arent overlooked.Some just cant afford the time or money to commit to bigtime. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Thanks for the input, everyone. I just wanted to see what the public's perception might be, and for those who want to argue what a Pro is or isn't to get a bit of all sides of the matter. A Touring Pro is an angler who by fishing the proper number of events and finishing well enough might qualify for the Championship of the PWT or FLW. A Ranked Pro has to do same for at least a couple years plus a defined additional timeframe.
The FLW League is IMHO a stepping stone tour, designed to encourage more national participation.
Touring Pro is a great definition, by the way.
The term doesn't mean anything as far as 'talent' goes, that is indicated by where the Pro sits long term; if the Pro has been at it for a long time and is not getting it done, it's obvious that no one will compare that Pro with say, a top ten ranked Pro. Of course, there are GREAT sticks who don't fish the Pro Tours. There's quite a number of GREAT golfers and tennis players and snowboarders who don't compete in a National Circuit, too. It's a matter of ability to decide to fish a circuit both financially and taking the risk/playing the game, at which time accepting the mantle placed by the tournmanet organization under who's rules of the game one plays is 'defining' . I bet there's several basketball players out there as good as Jordan ever hoped to be who will never see the court in Milwaukee or any other city. |
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