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hgmeyer |
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Member Posts: 794 Location: Elgin, Illinois | This requires careful analysis, so here is mine. Whether he had no plate or a "manufacturers plate" should not affect the outcome in this instance. The FLW's "diminished" ability (convenience...their sole justification for the clarification) to determine a safety issue does not trump the anglers rights. Nor, does his signature on the entry form allow the FLW to make up rules as they go along. His signature does not allow them to enforce or intrepret their rules outside some form of review in the courts. They have to be "unambiguous, clear and uniformly and fairly applied". As of this posting (11-8-04), the FLW web site still listed (in relevant part) in BFL Rule 9; "Each boat must have a U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate attached to the boat by the manufacturer." They have not, at least according to the website, changed the rule. They have issued a separate "clarification" in an open letter or press release, however you choose to characterize it. The rest of this post, except for direct quotes is my opinion. I believe however that it represents a careful analysis of the facts as are known at this time. They, the FLW, are, in the "clarification" apparently stating their "interpretation" of the rule. That clarification states, again, in relevant part; "The intent of this rule is to ensure that all boats used during competition are safe and will not endanger competitors or the boating public. In the case of boats that have no capacity information displayed, FLW Outdoors’ ability to ensure safe competition is diminished. Therefore, no boat may be used that does not clearly indicate the maximum horsepower and weight limits set by the manufacturer and/or the U.S. Coast Guard." Now, I believe that the FLW has a serious "credibility gap", and maybe a significant civil liability exposure in this instance. On one hand they have disqualified a participant and denied him the winnings because his boat violated rule 9. As they state on the website; "Recently FLW Outdoors disqualified an angler for violating a rule titled “Boat and Horsepower Regulation” that requires all boats in FLW Outdoors competition to have a plate attached by the manufacturer that displays capacity information." They conveniently delete any reference (from Rule 9 above) to "a U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate". On the other hand, hundreds of competitors have been paid in RCL walleye tournaments fishing from boats (Ranger 621, Lund 2025, and Crestliner 202s to name just some) that have no "U.S. Coast Guard rating plate" under a rule that is, in the relevant part, identical to the BFL rule. Obviously, they can't disqualify all of those participants and they can't justify not admitting they have a problem. So, they have apparently attempted to extricate themselves by writing into the written rule, an unwritten "clarification" or "exception". Again, I hope to make this point clearly... The rule, as written, requires a US Coast Guard Plate. Period. Unambiguous. However, the US Coast Guard does not "plate" boats over 20 feet. So it is impossible for a 20+ foot boat to comply. Now, the "clarification" appears to "magically" add a very material exception or unwritten interpretation... the published "clarification" states "no boat may be used that does not clearly indicate the maximum horsepower and weight limits set by the manufacturer and/or the U.S. Coast Guard." This is a very material "change"... The rule does not even imply that a "manufaturers plate" is acceptable. So, it is apparent that the "rule" is not a "black and white" issue. In fact, the clarification "proves" (to me, anyway) that the rule is, in the opinion of the FLW, "incomplete" and subject to further "interpretation" or as they call it, "clarification". If the FLW does not enforce the rule.. or makes exceptions that are not clearly stated as exceptions... like this, what I would characterize, a "secret" rule exception... or whatever you choose to call it... They have a problem here. Their "clarification" might well embody what they "wish" the rule to say, but that is not what the rule says. So, unless they start DQing everybody who has won from a Ranger 621, a Lund 2025, Crestliner 202 they are selectively enforcing a rule. There is a legal theory called "laches"... It basically says if you do not enforce a right/rule you lose the right to do so over time. Here it is so very obvious that they have a "bad" rule... (their own "clarification proves that even the FLW agrees that the rule does not state what they want it to say)... Next, they have failed to enforce it or have certainly allowed an exception for boats over 20 feet... They have lost the right to enforce the rule against boats over 20 feet in length. And, if that is not enough, there is the fact that they admit that the written rule can't/does not cover boats in excess of 20 feet so more "clarification" is needed. Since the rule needs interpretation (a necessity admitted by the FLW by issuing the "clarification") to arrive at the "intent" I believe that a court would find any other reasonable clarification that delivers the desired result (their stated intent, from the clarification; "The intent of this rule is to ensure that all boats used during competition are safe and will not endanger competitors or the boating public.") is just as good as another, if no "clarification" has been previously published. If there is any limit set by the manufacturer and that information is available that is what will be the "maximums" or if it is an "unlimited" hull then the tournament maximum of 250 hp will apply and the formula for capacity can be used to see if two anglers are allowed. The convenience of having an attached plate is nice, but I don't think it will magically be required by the court since it is not required by Coast Guard regulation and is only voluntary. It is certainly, entirely, too convenient, that subsequent to the disqualification that they publish a "clarification" that continues to deny the affected angler his win. I do not think they would prevail inlitigation. In fact, they affected Angler, might just have enough to hang his hat on in arguing "bad faith" and begin to open up the specter of additional (punitive damages), or at the very least, non-economic, additional damages beyond the stated prize value. Edited by hgmeyer 11/8/2004 9:03 PM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Maybe I'm missing the boat here..... The rule states the boat must have a plate. Yes wording change does nothing for FLW's credibility. But the rule requires a coast guard rating plate. The argument is that a 20'+ boat does not need this, that it's voluntary, however several boat manufactures still "plate" thier boats. Meaning the manufactures has rated thier boat and I ASSume that this is done by some standard that is regulated by the coast guard or industry standards as Steve mentioned. This guy had no plate what so ever in his boat, weather he needed it or not is a seperate issue from a legality standpoint. But the tournament rules stated a horsepower rating plate is required. Saying that all rangers crestliners and lunds over 20+ were also breaking the rule, I just don't agree with. I know the crestliner 202 has a plate, I know my Javelin 21 MSX has a plate......I'd be curious if about the Ranger 621, does it have a plate? I'm betting it does. How 'bout the Lund 2025 does it have a plate? Even though the Coast guard doesn't require a plate, why would any manufacture put a plate on a boat unless there is a liability involved? I believe it costs money to certify a boat, why spend it if you don't have to? I think we're missing the spirit of the rule here, much less lets dig back to earlier this year when an angler died in a bass tourney (time frame may be off a little). It's a rule of saftey and I'm sure the awareness for saftey is at a much higher level after a recent death in the tournament "game". In the bass world things are a bit different.....there is much more emphasis on speed. If the FLW were to lose a case on this stance. How long do you think it would be before a guy enters a tourney with an Allison with unlimited horsepower rating and comes in with a tweaked 300+ hp motor. Perfectly legal in the eyes of the coast guard and manufucture, but not "legal" in the eyes of the tournament. becareful what you wish for....... | ||
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| hgmeyer(unlogged) |
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| Jayman... You are missing a very big point... The absolute facts are that you are wrong when you state: "... the tournament rules stated a horsepower rating plate is required. " The tournament rules state that a "Coast Guard" rating plate is required. That is a huge difference. The "clarification", not the rule allows manufacturers plates. The Coast Guard plate is an impossibility for this boat. Yes, the whole issue would have been moot if the rule read the way the clarification reads. But, the plain facts are that the rule does not read that way at all. In very unambiguous language it states a "Coast Guard" plate. So any post tournament clarifications are just obfuscation. By the way, the Allison or bullet with a 300hp would not be allowed. The FLW tourney rules allow only up to 250 hp regardless of the boats rated maximum. The guys boat was within the manufacturers safety specs... It just didn't have a plate put on it by the manufacturer that stated that. And, no plate, other than a Coast Guard plate is in compliance with the rule. So actually, all those manufacturers' plates are meaningless until the rule is changed. You cannot fish an FLW/RCL event in a boat over 20 feet in length and be in compliance with the "letter" of the rule. | |||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Would someone please explain to me what the yellow plate with the horsepower rating is in my boat?!?! add sarcasm here. It's a fishing tournament, not a lawyers tournament the last time I checked. My point is, a 20'+ boat can still have a certified horsepower rating plate in the boat......the disqualifed competitior did not have a plate of any kind. | ||
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| Gander Mt Guide |
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Member Posts: 116 Location: Germantown and Land O Lakes, WI | Why does'nt the FLW call the manufacturer and find out what max HP is for his rig? If he's at or under the specs or at/under the 250hp rating, he wins. Pretty simple stuff. If the FLW has a 250hp max rule and this guy is under that and within the specs of the builder (builder only because the Coast Guard isnt rating it), then there should'nt be any violation. If the USC rating is that important to them, then make a 20' and 250 law. Nobody can fish a boat over 20 feet with a motor over 250 hp I bet there's alot of Bass boys scrambling to get thier manufactuers to stick a plate on thier rigs! | ||
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| Juls_OH |
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Member Posts: 389 | And, no plate, other than a Coast Guard plate is in compliance with the rule. So actually, all those manufacturers' plates are meaningless until the rule is changed. You cannot fish an FLW/RCL event in a boat over 20 feet in length and be in compliance with the "letter" of the rule. I have to politely disagree with that statement. I do agree, however, that it could be re-written to read a little easier. "Maximum horsepower for all outboards used in tournament competition will be 250 horsepower, not to exceed the horsepower limitations set by the U. S. Coast Guard. Each boat must have an U.S. Coast Guard horsepower rating plate attached to the boat by the MANUFACTURER. The horsepower of the outboard engine must not exceed the rating specified on this rating plate or the 250 horsepower maximum set by FLW Outdoors. By signing the entry form, each professional agrees to submit their boats and/or motors to an inspection by factory-trained personnel. Falsifying information on entry forms or altering the horsepower numbers on the motor or rating plate will be cause for disqualification from the tournament and may result in future ineligibility to enter FLW Outdoors tournaments." The USCG set limitations on the horsepower of outboard engines. The MANUFACTURER puts a rating plate on the boat using USCG horsepower specifications. | ||
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| Richfish |
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Member Posts: 540 Location: Milw, WI | That reads well but you forgot one thing. 20' and over are not rated buy the coasties. You can not change the laws to meet FLW's rules. So to make any statement true, you would have to include the line less than 20'. Meaning that no boats larger than 20' could compete. If it has a plate it would be from the maker. 20'+ unlimited horsepower is leagle and out there. The only saving grace that they have is that his boat had no plate at all. But I bet that rig is unlimited or 300hp. If he was not over the 250hp as stated, he still met the" and /or " interpretation of the rules. Who was the whistle blower that tattled after he had won the contest? Shouldn't he have been stopped from competing , that would be to the intent of rule 9. Boat insection was passed, there fore FLW "ok'ed" it for the guy to compete. He passsed boat insepection. The rules state he would not be able to compete, he was aloud to, he did, and he won. And somebody whined. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | From Juls-oh statement above: "I have to politely disagree with that statement. I do agree, however, that it could be re-written to read a little easier." But it was not written this way when he signed the agreement, was it? re-written now is not an option. Edited by stacker 11/9/2004 3:21 PM | ||
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| hgmeyer |
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| Juls.... By what authority, other than the "clarification", do you "politely disagree".... The rule is unambiguous. If if said "red plate" in place of "US Coast Guard" and you had an "orange plate" would it apply... no... where does the "stretch and bend" of the rule begin and end. That is my original point... if it is not clear on its face,,,where does the reasonable interpretation begin and end. While rules "interpretation" are in the sole discretion of the tournament director he cannot be arbitrary nor can he interpret clear rules... six fish is six fish.... if it requires an aerated livewell does a small cooler comply just because the tournament director said it did? All of the entry forms and rules comprise a contract and contracts are the ultimate province of courts when reasonable people disagree. This will either be settled in Kevin's favor or he will sue... $58,000 is not something he is likely to walk away from... And, in my opinion, the FLW would be wise to bite the bullet and settle... Because it will end up giving them a black eye if they lose... | |||
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| Juls_OH |
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Member Posts: 389 | Do I need an authority to politely disagree? Thought I was just being nice....;-) The paragraph doesn't state that the rating plate MUST SAY "USCG" on it. It says that the plate put on the boat by the MANUFACTURER must show USCG rating specifications on the plate..."A U.S. Coast Guard rating plate". It doesn't change the fact that Kevin didn't have a plate at all. That was the problem, and why he got DQ'd. I'm done with this topic....I've said all I have to say on the subject. Believe me HG, your well thought out view on this subject almost had me swayed, but I just can't read that paragraph the same way you are. We will have to agree to disagree and move on... Have a great night HG! Wish'n I was fish'n, cuz we heard the big fish are bit'n tonight!!  Juls | ||
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| Juls_OH |
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Member Posts: 389 | stacker - 11/9/2004 4:21 PM From Juls-oh statement above: "I have to politely disagree with that statement. I do agree, however, that it could be re-written to read a little easier." But it was not written this way when he signed the agreement, was it? re-written now is not an option. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ He signed an agreement stating that he would have a freak'n plate in the boat and he didn't have one. LOL Geez. I'm saying it could be re-written to read easier in the future. I'm done with this subject. Juls Edited by Juls_OH 11/9/2004 4:30 PM | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | Actually, Juls is correct as far as the spirit and intent of the rule. Tho obvious intent is to be certain NO boat in the event is overpowered. It's true that the boat was not tagged, and it's also true that it wasn't illegal to not have the boat tagged, but the intent was to be certain of the actual horsepower rating of the boat without having to tape measure every single rig in the field. Sure, the fact that NO boat is REQUIRED to rate US Coast Guard at over 20' indicates the builder's plate won't be reflecting USCG 'requirements' for that boat, but it will be listing the 'safe' horsepower acording to USCG compliance testing and standards and would indicate the boat passes flotation, fuel system, and performance testing according to the Compliance Specialist who tested the boat. Tuffy just float tested the 2060 under contract with a Compliance Specialist from Hayward, Wisconsin. All production 2060 models will be tagged. The rule should read: "Maximum horsepower for all outboards used in tournament competition will be 250 horsepower, not to exceed the horsepower limitations set by the U. S. Coast Guard. Each boat must have a US Coast Guard or Maunfacturer horsepower rating plate attached to the boat. The horsepower of the outboard engine must not exceed the rating specified on this rating plate or the 250 horsepower maximum set by FLW Outdoors. By signing the entry form, each professional agrees to submit their boats and/or motors to an inspection by factory-trained personnel. Falsifying information on entry forms or altering the horsepower numbers on the motor or rating plate will be cause for disqualification from the tournament and may result in future ineligibility to enter FLW Outdoors tournaments The angler should (I said SHOULD) have questioned the ruling because he had NO tag on his Viper and could not comply. Both sides have valid points, and both can argue successfully their point of view is 'correct'. Since the FLW writes and enforces the rules, they have the final say. | ||
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| Rob Stratton |
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Member Posts: 171 | But, what about an angler who competes in tourneys with a rig he KNOWS is overpowered? | ||
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| Gander Mt Guide |
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Member Posts: 116 Location: Germantown and Land O Lakes, WI | If a guy knows he has an over powered rig, he should also know he's gonna get DQ'd. I think the boat maker, Viper, should stand up for it's angler and give the FLW some poo. Yes, the rig didn't have a tag, No, the angler was'nt in violation of any HP limit regs or rules. In my opinion the FLW would have had every right to DQ this guy if he would have had a larger motor than required or pulled the tag off himself. This whole thing seems very very petty. I really believe what should have happened is that the FLW gave him a warning, contacted Viper about thier rule and the whole thing would have been done with. | ||
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| eye lunker |
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| What i see is odd about the whole things is that they went back and checked his boat after he had won.If that rule is so important it should be part of the boat check prior to the tournament?Either way like i said in a earlier post too bad for anyone who losses on such a thing. I guess it stresses just alittle more how important it is to be ready and have everything in order(boat) | |||
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| ShellbackCVA59 |
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Member Posts: 39 Location: Coatesville, PA | I'd like to see the guy get a lawyer and let the courts rule on this one. I doubt the FLW could win with the Coast Guard wording in the rules. From what I gather, the Coast Guard won't put a plate on a boat larger than 20 feet, so for the FLW to require one, they are out in left field. They screwed up writing the rules, so in my opinion, they are as much at fault as the fellow not having any plate and entering the tournament. | ||
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| hgmeyer |
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Member Posts: 794 Location: Elgin, Illinois | And, only the FLW can fix the rules... so it's kind of like "in their conrol" to get the rule right... Especially with all the over 20' boats out there in every tournament | ||
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| john mannerino |
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Member Posts: 1188 Location: Chicago IL. | OK thats enough boys and girls. Alot of good points have been brought up that only a supreme court can can make a ruleing on. I`m just glad I dont fish out of a 20' plus boat or have to worry about being over horsepowered. I guess haveing to do 80mph on the water has its draw backs. So it looks like its a split Juls. John Mannerino #473 | ||
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| JLDII |
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Member Posts: 714 | Sorry to bring up old hash, but........ I saw an article that said that Mr. Snider has indeed gotten a lawyer and is pursueing legal action against the FLW over his being DQ'd. I think in the end he will prevail. The "plate" issue will have something to do with it, but I'm inclined to think that the fact his boat was checked in and inspected before take off each day would suggest that the FLW accepted his boat as "compliant". Regardless what the wording of the rule is/was, and however they try to say what their interepation of that rule is. If it is as big an issue for the tournament directors as they are making it out to be, they should have checked on those things at the same time they check livewells, lifejackets, kill switches, registration numbers, safty inspection stickers, ect... The court will probably say that it was the FLW's responsibility to check those things prior to allowing a competitor to participate, not after the fact. That allowing him to pass thru pre take off inspection was an admitance on their part that his boat was acceptable to compete in their tournament, and thusly, they are without grounds to deny him his just winnings. He will probably be entitled to some punitive damages as well. | ||
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| Richfish |
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Member Posts: 540 Location: Milw, WI | Jack my point earlyer exactly. He was allowed to compete. Passed their inspections, and competed. Courts will rules this way. | ||
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