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Walleye Fishing -> General Discussion -> Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?
 
Message Subject: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?
KHedquist
Posted 8/16/2008 5:00 AM (#72585)
Subject: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 1991

I wont use any more abbreviations!

Anyway, Steve and anyone else who wants the chime in, do you think the Walleye Tournament world will see more or become like the Bass fishing world and going to only artificial bait?

Can you give us some insight and feedback on their their feelings of the artificial only format?

I am sure Berkley loved it.
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Sunshine
Posted 8/16/2008 6:13 AM (#72586 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2393

Location: Waukesha Wisconsin

For what it's worth, I hope that the FLW picks up the idea of having artificial only tournaments like the PWT did at the Can AM. The time has come to show everyone that we are good enough to use artificial bait only like our BASS brothers & sisters do.

 

  • Live bait is a crutch
  • Sponsorship is the name of the game. How many live bait sponsors do you see?
  • We've come a long way with artificial baits like Gulp Alive (it really works). And we will go further if we embrace artificial only tournaments.
  • If you are good enough to enter a tournament, you are good enough to use artificial only. 

 

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john mannerino
Posted 8/16/2008 6:37 AM (#72587 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 1188

Location: Chicago IL.
I would not mind it at all, but I dont think we will see it.
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walleye express
Posted 8/16/2008 7:31 AM (#72589 - in reply to #72587)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2680

Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay.
My long term fear is that artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more, and the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys, and replace live bait. Doing so, even during limited periods during the year, would disrupt and hurt a bait business and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together. And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows on my Do-Jigger or using one on my dead rod with a Genz Worm during ice fishing season quit yet. I love and use Both Gulp and Power Baits quit effectively, but live bait will always trump artificials IMV.

Edited by walleye express 8/16/2008 7:38 AM
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Sunshine
Posted 8/16/2008 8:11 AM (#72590 - in reply to #72589)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2393

Location: Waukesha Wisconsin
walleye express - 8/16/2008  7:31 AM

My long term fear is that artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more, and the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys, and replace live bait. Doing so, even during limited periods during the year, would disrupt and hurt  a bait business and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together. And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows on my Do-Jigger or using one on my dead rod with a Genz Worm during ice fishing season quit yet. I love and use Both Gulp and Power Baits quit effectively, but live bait will always trump artificials IMV.


 artificial bait tournaments would give the public confidence to use them more
....... and this is bad because?

the antis more ammo and logical reasons not to hurt the little fisheys
......... doesn't seem to be the case with bass tournaments

would disrupt and hurt  a bait business
........ or it could help the bait business if they change their business model and sell more artificials.

and might put more live bait dealers out of buisness all together.
........ has this happened down south to bass fishing? There may be winners and losers but with the spread of VHS this may be a good thing in the long run.

And I'm not ready, nor do I have the confidence in Jigging a Gulp Minnows
..... no one is force feeding you if you are not a tournament fisherperson. Plus, the more you use artificials the more confidence you and everyone else will gain in using them.

but live bait will always trump artificials
........ again, the average person can continue using them. For the record, I fished a northern Wisconsin lake in June where I did much better on Gulp Alive than the real thing. There are times when artificials will trump the living stuff.

I believe that artificial only tournaments will stimulate the industry and create interest in the tournament world.

I know people will be reluctant to a major change like this. They always are. I Look forward to constructive responses for and against.

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jerry
Posted 8/16/2008 8:36 AM (#72594 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 2567

Location: Manitowoc, WI
I do not see an artificials only circuit in the future. And, in my opinion, I can't see it as a postive or negative factor to tournament fishing or walleye fishing in general. I don't have any statements or facts to back this up, only my gut feeling.

I also do not see the use of artificials only as a determining factor in the popularity of walleye fishing tournaments In my opinion, we've seen the peak of walleye tournament popularity, given the rising costs in fishing an entire major circuit. I see the future of major walleye tournaments dwindling, with the lion's share of tournament participation going to the weekend and team circuits. And I do not see where the use or restriction of live bait and artificials changing this......it's more of an economically forced issue than a use/ no use for live bait issue.

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walleye express
Posted 8/16/2008 9:05 AM (#72595 - in reply to #72594)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2680

Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay.
Bait business's in my area are BAIT BUSINESS'S. They don't deal with or dispense/sell anything else but live crawlers and minnows. They buy, keep and store crawlers by the millions. They aquire and travel to clients as far away as 100 miles or more that have sportshops that sell tackle and other outdoor gear like Gulp. They depend on these outlets to buy the live crawlers and the minnows they seign, during peak times of the year and keep alive in mamoth tanks with mamoth airators over the summer for the most part. I know I was in the business for 4 years. Whenever I use 3 Gulp instead of 2 dozen crawlers, or 3 power baits instead of 2 dozen shiners I take away their business.

As far as Bass fishing versus walleye fishing, and how bass are fished, it's haunts, likes and dis-likes and what it prefers in forage, lends itself to artificals more then walleyes ever will. Whens the last time you caught a walleye on a Jig and Pig, Big Craw Daddy or a Slugo? Aint the same, the comparison not even close and never will be.

I'm not against artificials and think an all artificial tourney is cool. Hell, I use them successfully myself as mentioned. But like the forage base itself. When one specie shoves it way into the ecosystem, another gets shoved out. I'm not ready for that yet is all.

Edited by walleye express 8/16/2008 9:25 AM
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guest
Posted 8/16/2008 3:11 PM (#72600 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


How much do live bait companies contribute to the tournaments?

There are times that live bait will outfish artifcials and times it's the other way around. I'm sure there are BASS tournaments that the guys would absalutly kill the bass using live shiners but BASS has determined that it does not look good to be using live bait nor does live bait bring in any sponsorship money.

Getting rid of live bait in walleye tournaments is LONG overdue!
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tyee
Posted 8/16/2008 5:16 PM (#72602 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 1406

Your right it is overdue! Live bait does NOTHING good for tournament angling period. It most definately does nothing from an economics point of view for these anglers either, If you have to rely on a few flats of crawlers rather than buying a few more baits, your in the wrong sport.

Bait shops like the ones Dan describes will slowly disapear from our landscape if they can't adapt to the ever increasing concern about invasives. Nationwide there are lakes all over the country that do not allow Live Bait. The time has long past to not have professional anglers looking at the best fishing practices available for the betterment of the fishery.

Bass guys have done it quite successfully. Does it matter that Live bait might put more fish in your boat? NO... it's quality not quantity as we all have the stories of the BIG one that got away! and the stories of the freezer fulls need to become a conversation of remember when!

Good Luck
Tyee

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Sunshine
Posted 8/17/2008 11:48 AM (#72605 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2393

Location: Waukesha Wisconsin

The winner of the Can-Am first-ever tour-level artificial-lure only tournament won with 36.83 after day 2. This was the best 2-day weight on record for a tournament at Wabigoon. The previous mark was 32.06, set in a live-bait event 3 years ago. Guess he did not need live bait?

 

Pro's used various techniques from spinners on bottom bouncers to pitching jigs and vertical jigging to snap jigging and slow death rigs to casting crankbaits. The winner pitched Northland whistler jigs with 5" Berkley leeches and also used a 6" Powerworm. perry Good caught about six 8-plus pounders during practice. he pulled spinners on bottom bouncers to nab his big fish. They key, however, was tying the hooks closer together than usual so when he put on the Berkley PowerBait Power Nightcrawler, it would create a big wobble, a la the slow death presentation popularized by Parsons and fellow Team USA pro Keith Kavajecz. The fourth place finisher casted Rapala X-Raps as well as jigging 3" black shad Berkley Gulp! minnows and 3" pumpkinseed Berkley Gulp! fry.

 

This info was taken from WalleyeFan. They have more interesting techniques listed. 

 

Will the average walleye fishwerman stop using live bait .......... absolutely not!

 

Can we all learn from tournaments like this ...... absolutely.

 

I always thought that one of the goals of the national level tournaments was to take walleye fishing to the next level by showing average fishermen how to use new techniques that they may have not tried otherwise? I believe this tournament and others like it ,if we continue on this path, will show all of us how to  expand our arsenal of catching techniques.

 

Dan, for the record, my bass buddies have helped me expand my horizons and and use different techniques in new locations. They do this by complaining about all of the walleyes they catch while prefishing or doing tournaments using techniques you mention. 

 

I bet these same type of conversations happened when the BASS folks went to artificial only tournaments. I expect many will resist change like this but I really think that it will help the sport in the end. 

 

Jerry, I do not see this as the Messiah for all the ailments that we encounter. This will not fix the economy or lower gas prices. It will not give consumers more buying power so they can afford to buy more fishing equipment. But it may just spark more interest in the sport we both love. It may have already caused some people to stop and consider using new techniques. I'm sure that some will read about the techniques used (if the message gets out from the media) and they will consider buying some of the artificials used during the tournament. That's one reason why sponsors continue to endorse people like us. Heck, If I were Berkley, I would have the winner's picture all over the fishing magazines describing how he broke the lake tournament records using their product. Great advertising.

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sworrall
Posted 8/17/2008 2:20 PM (#72608 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?




Location: Rhinelander
Many of the Pros expressed interest in seeing continued Artificial Only Challenge events.
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CT
Posted 8/18/2008 9:46 AM (#72626 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


So if artificials are so much better then why do you guys have to push so hard to mandate it for tournaments?

If the winner of the Pan Am was going to beat out everything natural then why did it have to be deemed an artificial only tournament?

I mean, if fisherman are so smart wouldn't we naturally gravitate towards using the artificials since they are so wonderful and therefore mean more wins?

What are the fake bait companies afraid of, a little competition? Wouldn't they sponser things just as freely if their product did out catch all other baits?
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Sunshine
Posted 8/18/2008 10:47 AM (#72627 - in reply to #72626)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 2393

Location: Waukesha Wisconsin

CT - 8/18/2008 9:46 AM So if artificials are so much better then why do you guys have to push so hard to mandate it for tournaments? If the winner of the Pan Am was going to beat out everything natural then why did it have to be deemed an artificial only tournament? I mean, if fisherman are so smart wouldn't we naturally gravitate towards using the artificials since they are so wonderful and therefore mean more wins? What are the fake bait companies afraid of, a little competition? Wouldn't they sponser things just as freely if their product did out catch all other baits?

 

CT:

I would say that we all have a tendency of using the old methods that we are accustomed to before we try new techniques. Mandating artificials may just push us (as tournament fishermen) away from our comfort zone to try other techniques that can be just as productive.

I can recall many instances where we use artificials because they are more productive or more efficient. My fun fishing on Bay De Noc in the fall is all crankbaits. I have caught many 10+ pound walleyes using nothing but artificials. In the spring/fall while fishing big rivers, I have had great success trolling artificial lures using leadcore and/or 3 way rigs. There have also been numerous situations where I have caught more fish using blades,  jigging spoons or jigs with powerbaits while others used live bait. This doesn't make me the better fisherman, it just shows (to me anyways) that live bait isn't always the best answer. I believe that tradition or additional confidence in your presentation causes you to use live bait when artificials could be just as productive.

If you read the threads from the Lake Erie fishermen you'll see that more and more people are using GULP crawlers and/or spoons to catch their fish. No one forces them to do this, they have just discovered that it works for them.

Speaking of "fake" presentations. although real crawlers are alive, are they really a natural food for walleyes? In all honesty, how many walleyes really see a night crawler in the lake? I know that we have all been told that run-offs may cause night crawlers to end up in the lake, but how often does this really happen? We use night crawlers primarily because of their scent. If companies can reproduce the same kind of attractive scent and smell that works for walleyes why not use them? I believe that the answer is tradition or our crutch toward using live bait.

I'm not naive to assume that artificials will always outproduce live bait like minnows when techniques like lindy rigging work. But I believe that given the chance or opportunity, tournament fishermen can usually find an acceptable alternative using artificials. Sometime we need to be coaxed into using different techniques. I also believe that having artificial only tournaments will push manufactures into coming up with better products. I see it as a "win-win" for the industry and the fisherman because of the better products that can/will come along.

Is fishing with artificial bait for everyone? NO! Many weekend fishermen will continue to use live bait only until national tournaments are given a chance to show them that there are many instances where artificial bait is as good. 

I'm not suggesting that ALL tournaments go away from live bait. But I still think that everyone would benefit if a national tournament started doing articial tourmnaments only. 

 

The only argument that I can see involves those involved with producing/selling live bait. I can see their concern with loss in revenue. I do not have all the answers with their concern but I would be interested in knowing if live bait sales went down in the southern part of the country when bass tournaments went to artificial only.

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sworrall
Posted 8/18/2008 11:00 AM (#72628 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?




Location: Rhinelander
CT,
Sunshine nailed it.
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stacker
Posted 8/18/2008 11:23 AM (#72630 - in reply to #72628)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 2445

Location: Fremont, Wisconsin
After reading through Sunshines long post there are a few points that he has seemed to miss. That is, we the fisherman pay to fish these tourneys, not berkley or anyone. When we cash a check, it is our own money we win not berkleys, the directors keep that, and last but not least, we do not work for the bait companies. we work for ourselves. Dont even start the "That is the reason they are not sponsoring events." Crap. I believe that there is a very small percentage of tourney fisherman who believe we are NOT AS GOOD A FISHERMAN as a bass guy.

Been bass fishing lately, well, let me tell ya, they just aint as hard on most days as walleyes.

There are many other personal reasons, however, I will leave it at that. I am sure some of the pros enjoyed a change of pace at the can am, mixing things up is always good.
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guest
Posted 8/18/2008 12:04 PM (#72632 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Funny I have been saying that walleye tournaments should be artificial only for a couple years and have been getting ripped for it so much that for the last year or so I don't even bring it up anymore. No suddenly it seems to be all the rage to try to get rid of live bait in tournaments.

Like I've said before, real men don't fish with worms!
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tyee
Posted 8/18/2008 12:29 PM (#72633 - in reply to #72632)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?



Member

Posts: 1406

Stacker? Directors get all the sponsor money?......Then they need to get more sponsors so the fisherman can enjoy that as well! WHY do the fishermen need to get their own sponsers to help defray costs? We know how much it costs to be a tournament fisherman.
Good Luck
Tyee
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CT
Posted 8/18/2008 12:30 PM (#72634 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


I repeat, why mandate it, let those that fish decide who is best with whatever legal technique they choose. If occasionally someone wants to run a tourney mandating artifical only fine, I just don't believe it should be the "new norm", or that there is any justification pushing this on people. It won't take very long for the best practice to be utilized for the best weight, nobody will have to coax me into using something much cleaner and cheaper if that's what is working.

I never said crawlers were natural bait for fish, I don't believe that is the issue here.

Lastly, to simply say real men don't use worms is just being ignorant.
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stacker
Posted 8/18/2008 12:42 PM (#72635 - in reply to #72633)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 2445

Location: Fremont, Wisconsin
Tyee, you will need to explain what in the world you are refeerring. You got me confused.
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Jim Ordway
Posted 8/18/2008 12:45 PM (#72636 - in reply to #72634)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 538

The Can-AM was an interesting idea that very well may be copied. I am certain that all the guys I fish with would not be scared off by the idea. Lets see who is the first to try it next year.
Take care,
Jim O
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bradley894
Posted 8/18/2008 12:46 PM (#72637 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


lol you guys can get into a psssssssssssing match over anything lol,,,,, first of all i for one do not want to see 75 burkly gulp wrappers a day floating past my boat or littering the shoreline. second point! 99%of artificial bait is PLASTIC a patrolium based product and all you tight wadds are going to support the cheep import knock offs from china anyway... lead paint based finish of course... cant wait to put some crappy fake leach on my nice hand crafted wooden slippry float!!!!!!!!!!. IM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE CREATING MORE RULES! what does anyone have against live bait! Bass GUYs only use artificials bla bla bla.. the bass game is a southern game for the most part a very long season,..... the fact that bass fishing is bigger than walleye fishing because of artificials is WACK! that argument is silly. the population in florida alone is larger than the whole walleye midwest alone!!!!!!!!!! of course there going to sell more crap and have a larger following.. lets face it ,, the little walleye world we live in is centerd around 6 states that added up do not compete with california alone... tell all the artificial bait companies out there that i will not use there stuff full time unless i have more faith in there product and i have the free time to experiment more with there stuff... but since i have to go to work all the time to pay my taxes to support all the other silly idias people come up with that there is no real need or demand for ,, i dont have time to go fishing and try all the new stuff... so until you make me im gonna buy my nightcrawlers and leaches and what ever the heck else im allowed to fish with..
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guest
Posted 8/18/2008 12:47 PM (#72638 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


CT, The worm thing was said in jest although think how profesional one looks on TV when they are hooking a worm on there hook?
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bradley894
Posted 8/18/2008 1:08 PM (#72640 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: RE: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


i know they can make bio degradable artificail bait but 99% will be plastic and be floating arourn FORVER , eaten by all spiecies .. talk about leaving a footprint.. if a cercuit comes along and its aritificial only i wouldnt decide to fish it or not because of that rule... if it make sence to fish the cercuit the i will... but just because you would prefer an all artificial tournament because the only thing you know how to do well is pull a crank bait behind a board shouldnt mean you should take away other anglers favorite tactics . i love jigin and riggin , its more fun for me and i feal its more affective 90 % of the time.. also more enjoyable TOO ME! MAYB NOT YOU BUT TO ME.... i spent 10 years as troller and enjoyed those years very much... it got old and i got tired of the hard work it took to keep everything in order and fishing properly... yes i can jig with artificial bait and will admit on some days i caught more and larger fish on artificails than live bait but what does that have to do with anything... I WOULD NOT SELL OUT A WALLEYE CERCUIT TO ARTIFICIAL BAIT ONLY WITHOUT A HEFTY CHECK INVOLVED . IF THE ARTIFICIAL BAIT MANUFACTURERS WANT A MONOPOLY ON THE WALLEYE TOURNAMENT WORLD THEN THEY NEED TO WRITE THE CHECK.... the can am was organized by anglers and supported by a company that has a direct interest in the sales of artificial bait (im sure somewhere along the line a check was written) anyway so be it ... and as long as the anglers participating were ok with it and got something out of it than i am good with it too... BUT>> AS LONG AS ANGLERS ARE FISHING FOR THERE OWN MONEY WITH THERE OWN MONEY , I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ADVERTIZING FREE OR BEING MANDATED TO USE A CERTAIN PRODUCT OR BRAND!
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sworrall
Posted 8/18/2008 1:53 PM (#72642 - in reply to #72585)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?




Location: Rhinelander
. I WOULD NOT SELL OUT A WALLEYE CERCUIT TO ARTIFICIAL BAIT ONLY WITHOUT A HEFTY CHECK INVOLVED . IF THE ARTIFICIAL BAIT MANUFACTURERS WANT A MONOPOLY ON THE WALLEYE TOURNAMENT WORLD THEN THEY NEED TO WRITE THE CHECK....

BUT>> AS LONG AS ANGLERS ARE FISHING FOR THERE OWN MONEY WITH THERE OWN MONEY , I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ADVERTIZING FREE OR BEING MANDATED TO USE A CERTAIN PRODUCT OR BRAND!

1) No one 'sold out' anything. This was an artificials only 'challenge', and Berkley sponsored the event. That said, Bio Bait and other brands of the new generation artificials were in use and mentioned onstage. 99% of what was used to jig and rig WAS biodegradable. Crankbaits are not, but that's nothing new. You argument should apply to lead jigs and bottom bouncers, then you might have a good point, but not with the bait the lead is holding down.

2) Believe me, the sponsorship from Berkley and others made the Challenge doable, not the other way around. No sponsors--- no event, and that's a fact. What's the difference if the main sponsor is Berkley or Ranger? Mercury or Evinrude? Until a new model can be developed that pays well enough for the Sponsors to pony up ALL the money, anglers will for the most part 'fish for their own money'. Some FLW Bass events have entry fees as high a $5000.00.

Lots of fish were caught. I fail to see a problem here.

' Through technology exclusive to Berkley®, Gulp!® releases scent 400X more than regular plastic baits. And with all natural ingredients, Gulp! is 100 percent biodegradable—the first bait of its kind.'


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stacker
Posted 8/18/2008 2:14 PM (#72644 - in reply to #72642)
Subject: Re: Future artificial only Walleye Tournaments?


Member

Posts: 2445

Location: Fremont, Wisconsin
There is one thing that is showing its face on this thread, THaT IS, there is a black and white line. neither side will see the other. I will bet that there are more on one side than the other though.
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