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| Message Subject: Are Tournament Anglers Dopes? | |||
Fishing Fanatics |
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Member Posts: 52 | Check out this article on BassFIRST.com http://bass.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/10.24.2008/1784/Bassin%E2%80... | ||
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| B.JAY |
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Member Posts: 127 | excellent artical !! pretty much sums up what i've been thinking for along time. thanks for posting it. | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | "failing business model that doesn't allow us to have enough money to have a secure life financially " The quote above perfectly describes the past 25 years for 95 percent of the anglers competing at the highest level. It's been a sham...... No matter what format, media etc. is created by the circuits, the anglers will disappear. Just as they have for the past 25 years. There is a way! At least to cover the angler's expenses on the top level of competitve "Pro" fishing. No matter how you finish in the tourney! It's time the main players in the industry recognize and admit to reality. Or--live without competitive fishing as a promo/marketing tool and product development tool. It's only matter of time..... "Dopes"? Looking back.....no doubt. But countless good, hard working people gave it all they had and then some--all the while believing the business model that was sold to them. That effort, investment and sacrifice is commendable, to say the least. Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 12:02 PM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Great article, Dave. I came to the reality a few years ago the a full time pro fisherperson enjoys a great lifestyle in their yournger years perhaps, but will pay dearly playing catch up, in their later years. Or will be working the rest of their life, due to no insurance, medical benefits, or retirement plan. Different strokes for different folks. | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | Amen Dave, I have been thinking along those lines for a few years as well. The only "sport" that I can rationally relate to tournament fishing is golf. Golf is the only individual sport that I can think of that doesn’t pay all of its players just to show up. Golf is also a sport that you see the same names at the top over and over again with the lower 90% fighting for one or two spots in the top 10 at any given tournament. Like fishing, there are tons of guys out there who would love to play golf for a living, and are willing to spend the money to travel and play tournaments trying to work their way up. They even have special schools dedicated to becoming a PGA level golfer (that cost up to six figures). That being said, anybody going into tournament fishing with plans of being 100% self sufficient off of tournament winnings is probably going to have a rude awakening. Even the top promotional guys have found ways to make money besides what they’re sponsors pay them. Check out their TV shows, Magazines (the Next Bite guys), articles for magazines, managing sporting goods stores (Tom Keenan), owning their own tackle companies Ted Takasaki etc. If you have the dream, great, just be realistic and don’t make your family suffer the financial consequences for something that’s such a long shot. Be smart, take care of wives and kids first, pay the mortgage, make sure everybody has insurance and food. Once that’s done, if there’s some left over, what the heck, give it a shot. | ||
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| Fishing Fanatics |
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Member Posts: 52 | For a little comparison the PGA versus the highest paying bass and walleye tours: 50th ranked PGA play Fredrik Jacobson (sp?) has earned year-to-date 1.5 million or so. The 50th ranked FLW Bass Tour person for 2008 earned through the FLW- Terry Bolton earned 111,000, but that's with a 2nd place at the championship and 75 K. During the regular season he grossed 36,000. The 50th ranked FLW Walleye Tour person for 2008 earned through the FLW - Joe Okada,$11,767. Heck Pete Harsh only earned $25,016 for the year without including Ranger Cup money. I did not include Michael Bennett who won a million dollars at the championship this year. Or the half million won by Alton Jones or any other championship winnings. That happens to only a few anglers per year anyway. For 2008 the average PGA tour golfer has made year-to-date about $850,000 or so on tour. Of course, none of this reflects the dollars earned from sponsorships which can be tens of millions for pro athletes other than anglers. Ironically, there are about 50 million anglers in the country while the number of golfers is around 15 million. | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | The other thing you can compare is how many of those 50 million fishermen fish Bass, Walleye, Redfish, Kingfish, Salmon, Muskies etc... There's far less specialization in golf than in fishing. Golf is Golf, if we all fished one species where manufacturers could make products for one type of fishing it might be a different game, but what fun would that be. Boats are different, rods and reels are different as are all of the lures etc... Another big thing that helps golf out is the prestige associated with the sport. The fans of golf can identify with the golfer because they are working at the same things. Honestly, I could care less when I see Redfish tournaments on TV, and I'm sure that many those guys feel the same way about Walleye tournaments. If we only had one species of fish in the US more people would be interested in what was going on with tournaments because they would all be fishing for the same things and wanting to learn. My whole point to my rambling is that each type of fishing tournament is targeting one group of the 50 million anglers, and even then they’re only targeting a percentage of that already reduced number. Maybe all golfers don’t watch the PGA, but I would be willing to be that a far higher percentage of golfers know what’s going on in the world of competitive golf than most anglers do in their own “sport”. It’s just something we have to accept, and have to figure out how to use the fan base we have and can gain to increase profitability to the players in the game. | ||
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| Brian Hoffies |
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| The big advantage in golf is TV. Golf on TV................real power nap material there!  | |||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Good stuff. But I wonder if the reality of the difference in how PGA golf is viewed versus the FLW etc., is how the two sports are marketed so differently. The media coverage is very different for fishing versus ALL major league sports. (I'm not talking about the games/tourney themselves) The marketing of competitive fishing is all about fishing and selling fishing products. NOT about the other asepcts of the sport--being the business side, the human interest side of the anglers, the good the bad and the ugly of ALL related activity etc. Major league sports thrive on the WHOLE marketing package each sport offers. Competitive fishing circuits are afraid of that model.....and have failed to grow in the process. Major league sports thrive on controversy. FLW once told me " we don't air our dirty laundry". Who's smarter and bigger? Major League Players contract terms are press releases! Anglers tuck their tails and hide behind confidential agreements. The differences are endless......and the success stories of each sport(fishing versus major league sports) reflect right from wrong in the marketing departments. Major leauge sports sell the whole story, from every angle, 24/7--that leads to the games. They create fans! NOT focusing on creating consumers. In the process, they create plenty of actual participants/consumers. The question is--will anyone finally take the lead and follow the marketing models of major league sports? Or will competitive fishing marketers continue to do more of the same? Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 3:34 PM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Steve, How'd ya like to buy my "Jayman's Takin' names and kick walleye azz" T-shirt? I agree you're on spot 100%. I've said the same thing before, but have told by the "wise" that I'm dead wrong. | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | Excellent post Steve. I agree that the marketing is where tournament fishing lacks. You see sports like Nascar, Golf, Ultimate Fighting and many others having companies line up to advertise and promote their products with them. Those sports have the fan bases so they can effectively advertise sponsors products without forcing them down viewer’s throats like fishing tournaments do. Personally, I get sick of hearing every angler tell how they couldn’t have caught their fish without their certain brand of sunglasses or their such and such sunscreen. When you’re at a major league weigh in, you really do feel like you’re at a tradeshow more than at an angling event. I don’t remember ever being at a football game where I heard the same product pounded into my head a million times in one game. To me a lot of the blame comes down to the anglers as well. So many anglers are willing to sell their soles for crumbs, there is no need for a company to invest the money in top notch anglers. Wins are nice, but a die hard angler who will travel the country and sell your product for a few shirts and a crankbait are a way better deal. | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Here's a prime example of how OUR sport marketing differs from how the big league marketing thinks and works: In the winter of '98 ( I think), I met with a key person within the PGA event production company. Just to learn and get advice on how fishing tournaments could or should be covered. It was a few months after Rick Lacourse won the PWT Championship. In the process of explaining the various aspects of how a walleye tourney happens on the water, the gal stopped me and asked " what was the focus of the televised coverage for the Championship?" I explained how Rick and his fast Ranger was able to get down river(Bismark) 50 miles. I explained that he used a Fuzzy Grub on a certain line using a certain rod and on and on I went about the PWT TV show. But again, she stopped me. She asked " what about the guy who won? What about him? Who is he? What is he? Anything special happening in his life the past year or so?" I said.....well.....he lost a lot of weight. And he's quite a "character". As she slumped into her chair, she said in disbelief, "everyone in America would have connected to a Pro Walleye Champion IF his weight loss was the lead story. And his character? THAT needed to be right up there as the lead story!" I relayed that scene (the producer slumped in disblief)to the key media people in the fishing game. It's quite obvious, 10 years later what they thought of my advice. Edited by Steve Fellegy 10/24/2008 4:40 PM | ||
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| Brian Hoffies |
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| I think until the public shows an interest and everyone inside pro fishing realizes that they may need to sacrifice $ for exposure, then this what you will have. Steve has hit the nail on the head. It' can't be just about fishing. You need to include more features. Do interviews with the "legends" of Walleye fishing. No, they don't need to be touring pro's, just guys who have added something to the sport. How about a feature on how boats are built? Who & how are baits designed? IMHO the features shouldn't be limited to just Walleye people. Add in the Muskie guys, add the Crappie guys, add the Bass guys. The public that watches need to be entertained, viewers bring ratings, ratings bring dollars and dollars brings better tournaments. But don't hold your breath on this thing. Read the message boards and you will see a bunch of egotistical guys just looking out for themselves while thumping their chest proclaiming a love of the sport. | |||
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| Fishing Fanatics |
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Member Posts: 52 | This is in a response to how general media covers tournament fishing and in particular high-level tournament anglers. They don't. They truly don't care. I was covering the 2000 Bassmaster Classic in Chicago and the irony was that the only coverage there was the morning folks looking at it more like a circus coming to town. There were tens of thousands attending the event in a monster city, but since it happened at Soldier Field when there were 10,000 folks int he audience it looked like a sprinkling of a few people. The city never promoted the event with any vigor. It was a joke. I know a lot of you could care less about Chicago, but the reality is there are an absolute ton of anglers within a 40 minute drive of the city who are totally into tournaments. The media looked at it as a distraction for all of us rednecks. Our radio show focuses on the people, the real people, we don't aimlessly promote product, etc. If its relevant to someones success we discuss it, but we are interested in who these folks are. We promote the anglers, personalities and the folks who make up this nutty business that I've devoted my adult life to. | ||
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| Toolman |
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Member Posts: 129 | I agree with many responses points on the marketing aspect of walleye tournaments. I think the problem is that the target audience isn't (and will likely never be) larger enough to spend much $ on the marketing end. Why put in more than the potential return. I can't disagree that it coud be marketed in a better way. My other point on tournament walleye fishing (and tourney fishing in general) is that it can't be compared to major pro sports. There are 'quqlifying" events for all major sports starting even at the pee-wee level, high school, and college called organized sports. Those that are truely great at their respective sport tend to move on to the next level. While I played golf at a D1 college and consider myself a good golfer, I am 100% sure I coulld not qualify to play golf at any Professional level. I fish the MWC and consider myself a good fisherman (though I wouldn't consider that I'm in the top 100 or even the top 1000 walleye fishermen in the country) but I can still participate at the higest level of walleye tournament fishing if I chose to, by merely paying the entry fees. That's the two basic differences between fishing and other major pro sports as I see it. Tim Edited by Toolman 10/25/2008 6:00 PM | ||
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| JAKE |
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Member Posts: 188 Location: Westland, Mich. | ?" I explained how Rick and his fast Ranger was able to get down river(Bismark) 50 miles. I explained that he used a Fuzzy Grub on a certain line using a certain rod and on and on I went about the PWT TV show. steve: that's hitting the nail on the head. tournament fishing promotion is all about the product, not the people. sell, sell, sell! how many weekend anglers need $60,000 boats, 2,000 $10 crankbaits or $5,000 worth of electronics? i fished with rick a few years ago and losing weight was never something i knew about before he drew my name and i got to spend some quality time in the left seat. | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | A few things to consider: Walleye Tournaments are relatively new to the Media spotlight, just beginning to get to a level where even local media notices them happening. The original, the Manufacturer's Walleye Circuit (created out of the train wreck that was the Manion Circuit), was about providing a venue for the anglers to promote the sponsors/organizer's products. That model was working, but tough times and a recession or two created a situation where the circuit was sold, and is now owned and operated by a company that basically is a publisher by trade. The MWC was never meant to provide a venue to make a living fishing, although a few enterprising individuals did just that. The PWT was owned by Al and Ron, and originally was formed to create a new level of competition. In my opinion, the PWT was ALWAYS designed to promote In Fisherman first, the sponsors second, and the Pros third, a model somewhat still in play within the Bass world as well. When In Fish sold to PrimeMedia, the focus changed some, and when sold to Intermedia, again. Owned by a company that is a publisher, and has a cable TV show. The FLW was originally designed to sell Genmar products as the RCL, the big shift occurring when Genmar sold Lund and Crestliner. Huge parallels here in the Bass world, as Genmar owns Ranger and the FLW, so in a nutshell, that's what the circuits are about. Non competing sponsors are brought into the fold, note G3/Yamaha. The FLW publishes a magazine, and airs a TV show. The focus is more on the Anglers, in my opinion, but the promotional venue is all about the sponsors, of course. Some Anglers consider the FLW an 'owners trail' because of the contingency allowances, and in a limited sense, that's right. What to do? A shift has already occurred in the business, and you'll see more of that coming. Driven by the absolute paradigm shift from print to electronic media advertising and promotional campaigns, sponsors look carefully at exposure, timing, and impact now in this very tough economy. That, in my opinion, is why In Fish bought Bass Fan, and opened Walleye Fan to compete with us. Bang for the buck is critical right now, more so than in the last 30 years. Reallocation of dollars into programs with instant impact, and moving some of the money from advertising to contingency with the intent of attracting the press to that move and using the sponsors own promotional machine is now more common than just a couple years ago. Bass is where it is today because of ESPN. It's a natural fit for them, everything is in place on the web and on TV, they OWN the joint. The fact ESPN is the leading authority on sports reporting in general certainly helps; allocation of dollars across the spectrum from ESPN gets the job done better than other media can, sheer dollar and position power in this case. FLW is chasing that hard, and is not, IMHO, making the headway they expected to as of this date, hence the shift in dollars from Redfish and Kingfish to Bass, opening the college level circuit, etc. Interestingly, Lindner Media shoots and produces a considerable amount of the FLW footage. The only parallel in Pro Sports is golfing, and in a sense, bowling. Golfing is a world wide sport, and as mentioned above, is consistent to every corner of the globe. Bass are where they are, so right out of the chute, there are regional limits. Walleye are restricted even more, unless we look at Zander. The PGA is the center piece for Pro Golf, so maybe AIM has the right idea! Most other Pro Sports are basically team events, and the teams are owned and operated by folks who run them as a business, a completely different deal, IMHO. As far as the Pros talking about their sponsors onstage, that's because they are offered an opportunity to do so. Every single Pro who weighs in a fish has a moment onstage, and uses that moment as he/she sees fit. Since we see the entire weigh in, you will see several Pros talk about and thank their sponsors. Where else are they to do that? The circuits won't do it for them unless that company is a MAJOR sponsor. I agree with Mr. Fellegy, times are changing and the need is there for the business for the circuits to change accordingly. That said, each Pro enters each event 'Eyes Wide Open' so to speak, so it should be no surprise what the return might be, IF due diligence is done. Some Pros are better at marketing the 'product that is their image' than others, as it is in any venture.The issue at hand is simple; there isn't enough sponsorship money endemic and non in the Walleye, Bass, or Muskie fishing businesses to accommodate all the Pros as they might expect if they were top of the top Golfers. Why? My opinion is there are too few Pros, too small a payout, too regional as a venue (see above), and the events are too limited in coverage and media hype as a result; so Fans have to find what Media coverage they can. The more the better, even marginal coverage gets some attention and draws more folks to coverage that isn't. BASS is the biggest and best, and still pales in comparison to the promotional machine some of the PGA events fire up. BASS and their sponsors are still engineering ways to make the Classic a spectator sport event, something Professional fishing has failed to do over the years. As Stacker has said over and over, Fan Base is the engine that pushes that bus, and it's up to the Media working with the Sponsors and the organizers to help create a strong base. Manufacturers and the non Endemics will go where the action is to partner up. Here's to the growth, changes, and excitement Pro Angling SHOULD bring to the public. We hope to be a small part of that as all of us move into the 2009 Tournament season and beyond. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Dave Landahl, thanks for kicking tournament walleye anglers, at every level in every state, right in the coin purse. That article will take guys, who had dreams of entering, and you just single handedly crushed them. It will stop many that were to enter, they will decide not to. It will slow the sales of boats and the tackle industries will feel the lack of impact as well. I cannot believe that a person like you would write such jibberish. Do you want this sport to die? Do You even realize what you just said? | ||
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| Fishing Fanatics |
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Member Posts: 52 | Stacker, I love the tournament game. I want it to thrive and the anglers and fishing and boating industry along with it. Yes, I realize what I wrote. The truth. Edited by Fishing Fanatics 10/27/2008 6:37 PM | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | You're right Stacker! The truth WILL hurt. (even if you spell "Gibberish" right lol) Now instead "blaming" someone who speaks to reality, become a part of a solution that actually works. A solution that creates a scenario that EVERY aspect of the sport can thrive on and actually live with. YOU, of all people know what reality is. I know you do..... I won't post on this anymore here..... but anyone that wants to discuss/debate this subject with me can and should feel free to call me. 651-270-3383 NO ONE wants this more than me, to be a great, profitable sport for EVERY aspect of the industry. I said "EVERY aspect of the industry". "EVERY"! Get it? "EVERY"..... | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | Anyone named Dave always speaks the truth. If that article "crushed your dreams", you were doomed anyway. Dave | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The short term effects that "That mans truth" will have on the number of entrants will be countable. I promise you that. The truth of the matter is, there are some guys who are making a living in this industry. That is fact. The truth is, that many many business' fail within 3 years of start up in any field, and there is Nothing different in this industry. The truth is Dave decided to paint the gloomist picture he could about this sport. He even seemed to blame others. The truth is he could have a adverse effect on the number of the entrants, period. Then I bet we will read another story telling how the recession or some others persons actions slighted the fields this year and the payouts went lower. Then a few more circuits will shut the door because he keeps yelling about getting the short end of the stick. Steve Fellegy, I do know. As you have seen in the past, a guy becomes a fan. he becomes a better fisherman, and then he becomes a contestant. The fans will push this sport. I am glad Dave felt the need to tell them his point of view on this subject. They may choose RVing over buying a better boat and get involved. Success breeds success, meaning, if the person who you are watching is always whining about how much they get paid, you will get tired of it and quit watching. If the bait shop owners is always telling you that he is not making it as you fork over your doe, then its time to go elsewhere so that other guy will be in business. Negativity will not help anything. A guy like Dave, that has the ear of more fisherman than he thinks, just told them it aint worth joining now, and dont even bother because you will go broke. Please go to the wolf river page and look at updates on the wolf river slow no wake issues. Thanks | ||
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| bwa |
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| Stacker The economy will keep the Walleye world down! and you can take that to the bank! | |||
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| Jim Ordway |
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Member Posts: 538 | Wow! I am surprised that Dave's article has pushed so many buttons. I always believed that a majority of all the folks who fished tournaments understood the odds of winning and losing the event. I also felt that the competitors, be they on Steve Fellegy's level or mine, understood what a long shot is was to have this sport become a livelihood. My apologies to Steve if I am speaking out of turn for him. (He is a great guy to fish with) What Dave is stating is not startling news and I do not expect it to have any overall influence on whether or not one buys a boat or continues fishing. The economy is going to be the biggest issue for all discresionary purchases in the next few years. The rest is up to the tournaments to offer attractive programs and locations to entice anglers to participate. Meanwhile, we all will have to buckle up for a nasty ride. Oh, and in answer to the original question, some of us are hopeless dopes who just love comptetion and learning, and it has it's costs. Good luck to you all, Jim O Edited by Jim Ordway 10/28/2008 3:24 PM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | I agree in the fact that the economy is going to take it's fair share of players out of the game. Simply because when guys like Joe the plumber are getting laid off, chances are they won't be using their un-employment check to pay entry fees. As for players, so long as there are, liars, BS'ers, braggers, and testosterone there will always be "boys being boys" and competition. So the tournament life will live on. | ||
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