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| Message Subject: When the chips are down, who's all USA??? | |||
Big 3 worker |
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| Nothing needs to be said... Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11 An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest: 'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington. The findings are as follows..... 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees. 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the sam e number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks. 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack. 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept. 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC. 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross. 7. Audi-Nothing. 8. BMW-Nothing. 9. Daewoo- Nothing. 10. Fiat-Nothing. 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001 12. Isuzu- Nothing. 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing. 14. Nissan-Nothing. 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website. 16. Subaru- Nothing. 17. Suzuki- Nothing. 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001. Condolences posted on the website Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep this information in mind. You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned and/or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing at all to the citizens of the United States, and remember one thing, their profits do NOT stay in this country...that money is gone from the USA! It's OK for these companies to take money out of this country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention.. Please pass this on. | |||
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| Scott |
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| Now that really makes a person think, thanks for that post, I'll be sure to pass it on. | |||
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| Jack |
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Member Posts: 39 | Modern Parable. A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing. Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program ,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters. The next year the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses. The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India . Sadly, the End. Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'. IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY | ||
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| Chipper |
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| Who cares how much money they donated, I surely don't. The amount of innocent people killed by drunk drivers per year makes 9/11 look like a Sunday brunch at the church social, but I don't see anybody wondering how much money Budweiser donated. How much money did a dead person get from a drunk driver by these companies? NOTHING. How much money from the U.S. government did a victim of a drunk driver get? NOTHING. The 9/11 may be a tragedy where 2900 people died all at once, but 18,000 innocent people will die in 2008 alone and not one penny of government sympathy money will be given by the U.S. government as were the 9/11 victims My point is some deaths especially in large numbers all at once are more importance than other "less important" trivial deaths. The DUMBO U.S. people buy the lie ....hook, line and sinker! | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Chipper, government's job is not to hand out money everytime somthing bad happens in life and comparing drunk driving to 911 is so, so off base and not even comparable. With that being siad I'm not sure if the original post was supposed to rouse sympathy for the big three with the financial mess they are in but it gets no play on my end. No surprise they donated to a national event like 911, but I'm sure they didn't donate to most other tragedies that happen around the world. Does that make them horrible for not donating....no. I look for the best product for the price, not who donates what. | ||
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| Chipper |
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| Off base? LMAO.....you got to be from Minnesota or or Wisconsin right? There is no difference between getting innocently greased by some collapsing buildings hit by a plane or driving innocently down the road and getting greased by a drunk. The Fact is you just died an innocent death at the hands of some jerks where the punishment should be DEATH! DEAD is DEAD and in both situations you are called a crime victim!!!! SPell it out. "CRIME VICTIM" The fact is if you died in 9/11 your family got an average of 2 million TAXPAYER dollars and the victims of drink driving didn't get SQUAT. Do you "get it" now? GEEZ......its no wonder why the world is so screwed up! | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Boy did you miss my point! No one should expect nor recieve money from the government because someone dies....that is what life insurance if for. The classification of dead is the mute point. So if my 5 year son falls in the lake and drowns I should recieve money from the DNR because they have control of the lakes?? You more than likely think that when someone is shot in a robbery the gun manufacture should pay the victims family. | ||
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| WRONG... |
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| It always amazes me how some people will post stuff like this on the net without first checking it out for accuracy.... from Snopes.com GM - 1 million + 50 vehicles Ford - 2 million DaimlerChrysler - 10 million Audi - 100,000 BMW - 1 million + 10 SUV's + 100 motorcycles Honda - 1.5 million Kia - 300,000 Mitsubishi - 200,000 Porsche - 20% of its "Drive for Hope" program Subaru - 1 million Suzuki - 31,000 + several SUV's and ATV's Toyota - 1 million + program to match employee contributions volkswagon - 2 million | |||
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| WRONG |
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| Forgot to add Ford and GM had programs to match employee contributions. | |||
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| Not confused |
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| After all the time, money and energy spent to entice auto manufacturers (other than the BIG 3) into the mid-west states MI. Oh. Ind. employing a lot of people and contributing a lot of monies to these localities, yes some goes over seas. Why do people try to put a guilt trip on people that buy other than the Big Three. Maybe they should consider why?? Just one example is 95% of current salary after their unemployment runs out. What is up with that when states unemployment offices are all but broke. I think we live in the best country in the world. We have lost a lot of job over sea, but thankfully we have gain some as well. P.S. I lost my job because of NAFTA and outsourcing after 28 years, so I walked in those shoes. | |||
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| bagz |
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Member Posts: 185 Location: Port Washington, wisconsin | Relative of mine bought a 2004 GM truck, new, and after 71 times in the shop he claimed the lemon law. Got a new truck. Wonder what he thinks of the bailout request. | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | I had a GM that ran 350000 miles. I just sold a Ford last year with 230,000 on her. I run a Toyota Tundra now and love the truck. I live in a 'world, not just the United States. I am aware commerce that's great for the US isn't limited by boundries and borders anymore when talking manufacturing. It's hard to find anything that's 100% made in the US these days. I feel really bad for the Auto Workers, it's not the guy assembling the doors on the GM trucks fault GM pays what they do all the way from top to bottom, it isn't his fault they can't get the house in order...it's management and that goes for ALL management top to bottom. I'm not even going to guess what needs to be done with GM, that's beyond my somewhat limited sight plane these days. We just spent a TON of money so a few big banks could get bigger buying out other banks with the money. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | I really do not feel that bad for the auto workers or management, they both had a heap to do with what is going on. The union did the industy no favors in this. | ||
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| Big 3 worker |
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RedNeckTech - 11/28/2008 1:42 PM I really do not feel that bad for the auto workers or management, they both had a heap to do with what is going on. The union did the industy no favors in this. I guess that was a little outdated. At the time, it was pretty accurate in 2001. I should have assumed that the bad press the foreigns got would have opened their wallets. My aplogies. Redneck and others. What about all the others who are not part of management or unions? Or work for the suppliers effected? I'm an engineer and not part of any union. I make a descent wage, but less than the $23/hr the Honda and Toyota line workers make. More than the new UAW hires at $14/hr though. Why screw me? And the 2 million others in the supply chain that aren't union? Sure, there are some UAW workers left that make in the upper 20's, but they're getting few and far between. They have more time on the line than Toyota has in this country though! The issue isn't wage. It's legacy costs. Plain and simple, GM has been here 100 years, and Toyota and others only a decade or less. The Big 3 have accumulated retirement costs and the foreigns have not. New UAW hires make about $5 less per hour than new foreign hires. Quality? We can debate that forever. Show me one good Toyota or Honda and I'll show you 5 great domestics. We could go on forever. That's more a matter of perception than anything. Funny how the preception of Big 3 cars are so bad only in the U.S. and Europe, but regarded as higher in quality everywhere else, even in the orient. And why not float the industry a LOAN???? We already gave 6 TRILLION away to the banking industry. The U.S. taxpayers made a sizeable profit on the Chrysler LOAN. Go ahead, let the industry die. The unemployment bill for the 3 million Big 3 workers alone is over $50 Billion for the first year. Possibly over $100 billion if a bunch of suppliers go down. Some estimate a $2 trillion hit to your wallet. That's not a loan either! | |||
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| Big 3 worker |
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Not confused - 11/28/2008 9:11 AM Just one example is 95% of current salary after their unemployment runs out. What is up with that when states unemployment offices are all but broke. P.S. I lost my job because of NAFTA and outsourcing after 28 years, so I walked in those shoes. If you were part of the industry, you should know that the 95% is NOT any burden on taxpayers. Workers draw the same state unemployment bebefits as every other citizen. The balance of the 95% is funded by the UAW and the employer. Before you get your panties in a bunch, that was a deal worked out for the manufacturers benefit. When a plant shuts down for retooling, which sometimes takes over a year, they want the same experienced workers right back on the line. Not having to go out and find green workers. Yes, it was a great idea for all parties in the good years, but it's not now. That's why you're seeing it phased out. | |||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | I think I said I had a great GM vehicle and a great Ford. I now run a VERY nice Tundra built in Texas. Five to one? Not too sure on that one, I've had GM transmissions go like candy, and ford emission control computers, too. My Dodge needed a new oxygen sensor about every 20,000. That's three a year for me. No one is 'screwing' anyone far as I can see. I find it interesting that free market capitalism is applauded loudly as the US WAY of doing business right when it benefits us directly, and not so much when it doesn't. And no one said anything about 'panties in a bunch' except you...let's keep the discussion civil and about the industry, please. | ||
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| Big 3 worker |
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| I didn't mean it was 5:1 ratio. I just meant that it can go tit for tat with quality comparisons forever. And I wasn't being uncivil with the panties comment. It does seem shocking to some with the 95% on the surface until you see the reasoning at the times. As for screwing. It is screwing us from many people's point of view. It has a personal element to it. Surveys say that over 50% of people oposing the loans think it should be a punitive measure for the industry. To teach them a lesson. No denying that's the sentiment of many. Spoiled, spoiled unions is the ignorant assumption. Well, in that lesson, are many, many innocent people who work hard for a non-union wage, and are just victims of countless mistakes by others and lumped in with the management and unions. | |||
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| Big 3 worker |
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| One thing to remember also, when it comes to cost. My non-union UAW wage as an r&d engineer is paid for by the manufacturer. The wages of Toyota and Honda r&d engineers is paid for by the Jaspanese government. | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | I for one will be spitting mad if my tax dollars have to go to bail out the auto industry. I didn't agree with the bank bail out. There is not anything written anywhere that states just because a company has been around for 100 years that it has a right to be around for another 100 years. If management and union cannot agree on settlements that will keep an industry viable then it deserves to die. You have picked to be in a career field that is not viable at the moment, and just because you are an engineer does not entitle you to continue with the same wage, employer or benefits. If you cannot (or refuse to) adapt your going to be in a world of hurt. I was heavily involved in the manufactured housing industry until it went under. I did not complain but I did grab onto something that I thought I would be good at and put all my effort into it and it succeeded. I am not meaning to sound cold hearted but this is life. Neither you nor I am entitled to keep the wage or benefits that we have, if the time comes for you to move on I suggest moving on before you get stuck in a rut. | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | For those who will be mad when the government DOES bail out the auto industry, similar to what it is doing for the banks, consider this: stability in the economy is what the goal is. This isn't a case of worrying about who's pocket this money comes from. I for one am glad that during my lifetime they are at least trying to help a large group of people, which will trickle down to helping even more people, instead of investing it somewhere foreign where it won't help anyone in this country. How often, in the last 100 years, can it be said that we had one iota of knowledge as to where our tax money is going? I say let them spend it, and make sure the money is spent to help the masses and not the CEO's who are creating the biggest burden for this country. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Jerry, that would be fine and good in the banking industry if the money was actually used to free up the credit freeze like it was intended, not buying up other banks. This notion that my tax dollars have to go to prop up whole industries is sick. If this is how it has to be then all this inflated wages and benefits need to be cut back a lot in both management and union. We went through this with Chrysler back in the 80's, so I guess that every 20-30 years we should used to giving the auto industry loads of money for very bad decisions and horrible union negotiations. You know, I need my money just as much as the auto industry needs my money. | ||
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| Brad B |
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Member Posts: 617 Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | RNT - What's wrong with a loan? As long as they pay Uncle Sam back, I don't really care. It does bother me that I am going to be paying for the mortgage crisis that has spilled over onto Wall Street because I don't see those pukes ever paying that money back. And you may want to do a little reading on the Chrylser deal that Carter signed into law in 1979. The US Government guarenteed the loans - meaning Uncle Sam didn't give Chrylser one penny - had Chrysler defaulted on the loans, tax dollars would have been used to re-pay the banks. Its VERY important to note that Chrysler paid back the last of the guarenteed loans in the mid 1980's and actually made $350 for the US Treasury. Should the US government get involved in private industry to this level? Maybe, maybe not. Just don't insinuate that Chrylser took tax dollars or that the US treasury suffered in any way for what Carter signed into law in 1979. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Brad, the point still is that the taxpayers were on the hook if Chrysler was unable to pay it back, there was no guarantee of that. Chrysler also had the unions and stockholders sacrificing a lot to help the company survive (unlike today). We are also not talking about government backed loans, we're talking about a direct loan from us, the tax payer. Why should my tax dollars, my kids tax dollars and my grand kids tax dollars go to any company as a loan when that company would never be able to get the loan on its own in the market place because it is not solvent? Does the government give "loans" to people who spend over their limit and ability to pay back credit card debt, or people who buy a home in which they wanted to own but couldn’t really afford? No...and the government shouldn't, the people have to work it out or file bankruptcy. This bail out is not so the auto makers can develop new technology, they want it to cover their day to day operating expenses for the next year because they cannot do it on their own. Chrysler at least had a new front wheel drive vehicle ready to launch and a game plan to go with it. At the present time the economy and market is not in the automotive buying mode...so be it. Just because a business exists doesn't mean it has the right to keep existing if it cannot remain solvent. A business is not in business to give people jobs and keep them employed forever, they are in business to make money. If they cannot do that because of whatever reasons then they should have to take the same coarse of action any small business has to do when it cannot find funds on it's own. I work very hard for my money (and I do mean my money) and I am tired of having to give it up to companies who cannot survive on their own. Will this whole bailout stop the auto workers union from striking because the industry will not be able to give them yet another perk or pay raise? I doubt it. | ||
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| Big 3 worker |
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| Several things you have completely wrong Redneck. First, you mention that nobody has made sacrifices. Let me point a few out to you. The Big 3 have trimmed almost 50% of their payroll. The UAW is now funding the workers healthcare. The dealer networks have been trimmed down, though more is needed. Even below the Big 3 many sacrifices have been made. American Axle workers had their wages cut in HALF and lost many benefits. Delphi, almost the same stroy. Then there's the 100's of other companies that have made cuts that didn't make the headlines. Second, you keep refering to a bailout. It is not. It is a loan. Third, the taxpayers were not on the hook for Chrysler. It was set up so that the taxpayers would get every penny back in the event of a Chapter 7 filing, just as they should in this case. Fourth, you say they are in this mess because they are not solvent. I guess you are right in a sense, but you don't realize that in NORMAL conditions, banks would be lining up one after another to lend any of the Big 3 money. Thanks to great decisions by banking and investment execs, the credit market is frozen for everyone, even business. Sure there's been alot of mistakes made and probably will be more, lots of sacrifices already made and probably more to come. but you and many others are so misinformed and detached from this industry that you don't know what is fact or rumor. I even see congressmen spewing misconceptions on camera because they have no idea. And I don't really think many people realize the repercussions of letting the industry die. Like I pointed out before Red, if you're so worried about your tax dollars, then you better be worried about the $50-100 billion unemployment bill alone, possibly a $2 trillion+ hit altogether. I'll gladly take your tax dollars to fund my unemployment, food stamps, healthcare, etc for a year or more, but I'd much rather them get the loan, everyone make sacrifices, and keep the heart of our manufacturing base intact. And don't say go get a job, because with 15-20% unemployment, there will be no jobs!!! Far beyond the Big 3, you're going to have thousands of steel workers unemployed, millions from the parts suppliers, over 1 million dealer employees, tens of thousands of trucking and transportation jobs lost, and the list goes on and on. Some estimate that for every Big 3 job lost, three others will lose theirs as a result. It's not pretty! Then there's the military aspect. What, are we going to have Honda and Toyota manufacturing our tanks and other military equipment in the time of a crisis? Think about that one! | |||
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| Dick Trickle down |
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| It's more like 9 lost jobs for each big three job lost! | |||
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