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Location: Chicago IL. | Let me throw this out there. How many think walleye tourneys should ban live bait. I know it will end alot of this mess about traveling across state lines with live bait in your truck. Dont mean to start a fight but Linder has a point. |
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| In my opinion, if the walleye world wants to be more like the bass world they have to eliminate trolling. And make the pro's cast and/or jig with artificial baits. Most recreational fishermen look at a walleye pro with all the tackle in the world trolling with inlines, mast riggers, dipsy and such...just don't or can't relate.
Now, will that hurt the compitition...of course. The numbers will be down of fish weighed, locations will be all but obsolete without it. But, every Tom, Dick and Harry can pitch a jig and try to catch fish. The first thing you think about when talking about fishing is the casting.
IMHO, live bait will not be eliminated, and neither will trolling. The question is, why does the walleye world have to be or compete against the Bass world. Everyday fishermen use natural bait almost everytime they go fishing.
Edited by saugers2 1/19/2009 4:46 PM
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Location: Elgin, Illinois | 1) Why would we want to be like the bass folks... That would be regressive evolution...LOL
2) It is the vast variety of specialized techniques that do fascinate many (me included) fishermen. But, it can be done, and is done, by many average fishermen... Just spend a day or two on Winnebago or Green Bay when there isn't a tournament in town. There are still lots of boats and fishermen.
3) Live bait is just another choice. Just ask John Mannerino how fond he really is (NOT) of willow cats... That issue alone should not dictate a choice of presentations appropriate or not for tournaments. Bass have always been pursued with artificials more than with live bait (at lkeast in the last 30 yeears or so) and it was not from anyone emulating tournaments. Artificials were/are preferable becauise you can fish faster and cover more water.
4) Now, would artificial only tournaments have a positive or negative impact? I honestly don't know. Some experimentation needs to take place and some honest assessments need to be done. I tend to think "right place, right time" will have no negative impact. "Wrong place, wrong time", and the fishermen will be having a door prize drawing for the money with no fish caught.
5) I now tend to use more GULP crawlers trolling on harnesses than lkive crawlers. So, I am moving away from live bait in one scenario. But, what do I know. I haven't really tried the minnows or leeches yet. So, might be as the number of successful artificials increase for use by walleye fishermen, live bait may go extinct for tournament purposes by choice. |
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Location: Chicago IL. | I was not comparing the walleye world against the bass. Dont know to many bass guys trolling cranks or harnesses in the weeds in 3ft of water. Way different!!! Every recreational fisherman I see out on the great lakes is trolling, I dont see why it is just pro thing. I`m just talking about all the new laws in the last few years about live bait across state lines. Greg, my thumb is starting to hurt again thinking about it!!!! |
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| Yeah John, I was reading in to it too much. I had just read the article on Linder talking about trying to emulate BASS.
The issue with live bait across state lines is a disaster, I always hated on having to worry about the selection at local shops when out of town. I always prefered to have my bait ahead of time and then I don't have to worry.
Devils Advocate: How long before somebody requests testing on another competitors bait? |
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| I think they will get there, banning live bait. Look, it's in the best interest of the sponsors of the tournaments. Name me one live bait sponsor. Then there is all the lure and artificial bait manufactures. Rapala, Berkley, mann's, etc. You won't see a ban on trolling, andy more than you'll see a ban on GPS or Sonars. It's too ingrained, and besides, a great portion of trolling is already done with artificials, and as HG says, more are turning to artificail crawlers for the spinning rigs. Could you see a tourney on Green Bay without trolling? |
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| lol...no I couldn't.
But for the most part, I don't want to watch a TV show with guys trolling either, and I am a pretty serious angler, I just prefer to watch guys casting or at least having a rod in their hands during filming. And that is the point I think Al Linder was trying to make, it seemed he wanted the walleye world to be a draw similar to the Bass world.
If you eliminate live bait, you will in effect turn most tournaments into trolling events. You will see the "odd" location where the guys are pitching jigs or vertical jigging, but that will be rare. |
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| I pull 1/8 oz. jigs and crawlers behind planer boards all the time so I guess I am really screwed.
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Location: Berlin | I agree, there is no way to make trolling exciting to watch on TV. I don't think that is possible but I guaruntee you it would help. If I had to pick one thing that makes bass fishing more exciting to watch then walleye fishing it is the hook set. Can you imagine a televised event that is nothing but Jigging for huge walleyes in shallow water where you have to give them 10 or more seconds. To have that 10 seconds on video would be heart stopping excitement especially if the angler played it up like say Skarlis would.
It seems like the sport is going more to trolling. There is a good reason for this but I like to watch trolling on TV as much as I like to troll myself. Lets put it this way, I would rather stay home and watch bass fishing on TV then go trolling even when the bite is hot. |
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| "Most recreational fishermen look at a walleye pro with all the tackle in the world trolling with inlines, mast riggers, dipsy and such...just don't or can't relate. "
Saugers2, I think you touched on something from outside perspective of walleye fishing. The average angler most liely will not own 6 trolling rods, boards, rod holders...etc etc. It's boring to watch as a fan.
Casting and Jigging is something any person can do, even from shore, and catch fish there is the "action" of doing something to catch the fish. It is a form a of fishing that any average fisherman or kid can do, to get started.
I would favor a no trolling tournament, sure trolling is an effective way to catch fish, but so are commercial fish nets and tournaments don't allow them...yet.
Reality of it is, most guys who fish, don't care what the fan sees when it actually does come to fishing, if they are trollers then they will troll and that is a large percentage of the playing field.
and Shep, back in the day, there were once guys that fished GB other than trolling, offshore boards haven't been around as long as the jig or the bobber.  |
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Location: Berlin | Shep - 1/20/2009 8:36 AM
I think they will get there, banning live bait. Look, it's in the best interest of the sponsors of the tournaments. Name me one live bait sponsor. Then there is all the lure and artificial bait manufactures. Rapala, Berkley, mann's, etc. You won't see a ban on trolling, andy more than you'll see a ban on GPS or Sonars. It's too ingrained, and besides, a great portion of trolling is already done with artificials, and as HG says, more are turning to artificail crawlers for the spinning rigs. Could you see a tourney on Green Bay without trolling?
I see your point Shep BUT just like there are "madatory trolling" locations there are also "mandatory live bait" locations. OK, maybe not mandatory but close to it with a tough bite. Banning live bait might help with sponsors but I don't think it will do anything but hurt the excitement of the TV coverage unless you are VERY selective on locations.
If you want to double the percentage of guys trolling, ban live bait. I truly hope that never happens. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Yep, gotta say that some changes in the walleye world will keep things exciting, I just aint ready for this one. Nor do I think it would increase the fan base. I cannot see this as anything more than a ploy for big business to mandate the purchase of goods to compete. I cannot see how this will increase the sport. I cannot see how it will bring more people to walleye fishing. I cannot see how it would be better for the fishes. The only people I can see this being good for is the people who get to line there pockets with the money spent on the product. If I enjoyed casting I would fish for (Gasp) Bass. I enjoying using my boat as a tool to deliver the bait. I think we are all worm diggers and we enjoy the smell of minnows and black rings under our nails. Well, I do anyhow. |
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| Jayman - 1/20/2009 9:16 AM
"Most recreational fishermen look at a walleye pro with all the tackle in the world trolling with inlines, mast riggers, dipsy and such...just don't or can't relate. "
Saugers2, I think you touched on something from outside perspective of walleye fishing. The average angler most liely will not own 6 trolling rods, boards, rod holders...etc etc. It's boring to watch as a fan.
Casting and Jigging is something any person can do, even from shore, and catch fish there is the "action" of doing something to catch the fish. It is a form a of fishing that any average fisherman or kid can do, to get started.
I would favor a no trolling tournament, sure trolling is an effective way to catch fish, but so are commercial fish nets and tournaments don't allow them...yet.
Reality of it is, most guys who fish, don't care what the fan sees when it actually does come to fishing, if they are trollers then they will troll and that is a large percentage of the playing field.
and Shep, back in the day, there were once guys that fished GB other than trolling, offshore boards haven't been around as long as the jig or the bobber. :)
Yup, and I was one of those guys that fished there before planer boards became the hot item. Long lined crankbaits, and drifted bottom bounced store bought spinner rigs back then. Lots of fish caught, but not nearly the size we catch now. I don't think I ever caught a 10 out there untill I started planer board trolling. I think that was somewhere around 93 or 94 when I got my first 2 planer boards.
If you were to ban trolling for a tourney, would drifting also be banned? Cuz there's days that you can troll by wind and wave power just as effectively. Now that would enter into the strategy. Ban powered trolling, either by gas or electric motor. How do I plan to fish today? What's the wind speed and direction?
But I could see a tourney not allowing trolling. Maybe the way to reduce the numbers of trollers would be to allow only 1 rod and 1 lure per angler? And ban livebait?
You're right. I'm an average walleye angler, and I don't own 6 boards and rod/reels. I got 18 boards, and at least 16 rod/reel combos for trolling. 8 for planer boards, 4 segmented lead, a couple full, several fireline rigs, etc. I got way too much stuff! hehehe
Edited by Shep 1/20/2009 10:34 AM
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| This topic was already beat to death last August. |
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| Except last August, we didn't have Al Lindner calling for live bait only. And that brings a new voice into the discussion today.
Do you have an issue with this current discussion? If so, it's alot like TV. Use the remote, and don't tune in to this channel.
And Rich, I'm not saying it will help WITH sponsors. I am saying it will help the artificial bait makers. And, do you think that if you eliminate live bait, and the new plastics like Gulp, PowerBait, and the others would not be used by guys like you, and you'd switch to trolling cranks?
I think live bait is a great way to catch walleyes, don't get me wrong. But a tourney ban would result in the faster developement of new products, and tactics. You are going to see guys like Skarlis, Gofron, the Keenan's, Jim Hughes, KK, GP, you, and the rest of the innovative guys develope new systems for catching big walleyes. Take away one thing, and they'll adapt and overcome.
Edited by Shep 1/20/2009 10:45 AM
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| John, as for the border crossing, banning live bait would be a good thing for sure, I didn't read Al's article, could he have been referencing invasives as well as survival? I believe one of the key reasons the Bass world banned live bait use was for the survival impact. Bass are more aggressive than a walleye are they not? Live bait ment deeper hooked fish and more mortality. At least at the time the Bass world made the change that was one of the main reasons they cited.
Those spring events on the wolf would still be there and they would adapt. Most serious walleye anglers I know are concerned about the survival of their fish but they still have a long way to go compared to that of many Bass guys I know. (man, their eyes swell up if they kill a fish) If AIM is successful, fish on stage will become a thing of the past and the tools are constantly changing if tourneys banned live bait fishermen will adapt as we always have. There are dozens and probably hundreds of lakes that you can't use live bait on now!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| The reason that bass tournaments banned live bait was because live bait fishing tends to result in fish that are hooked deeper and increased mortality. As we all know, bass fishermen tend to fish for the "sport" of it a bit more than walleye anglers (as walleye anglers tend to be looking for a meal). Because the average bass guy wants to release his catch, getting rid of live bait in tournaments (ie., decreasing hook mortality) was viewed as a positive move as it decreased tournament mortality AND gave all bass anglers something they wanted - a way to catch more bass without killing more bass.
Would the same result occur with walleye anglers? Perhaps, but probably not for the same reasons. Eliminating live bait MAY decrease hooking mortality, but if the fish is destined for the table, I don't see how that is going to make the transition to most walleye anglers. If the move increases the amount of money sponsors are willing to give to tournaments and to promote walleye fishing in general, then I could see a positive benefit.
Bass angling is more popular because bass are found more places and they are a lot easier to catch. When we find a way to make walleye grow in every back yard pond, impoundment, lake, stream, and bayou across the country, we'll find a way to make walleye fishing more popular. Until then, hoping for the walleye tournament angler to reach the status of the bass counterparts looks like crawlers left out in the sun too long... not very good.
Personally, I would support a move to eliminate live bait in some tournaments, especially those where such live bait methods would likely lead to higher hook mortality. Maybe we could get a special exemption for waxworms - I would hate to see a nice guy like Rich lose this go-to bait. |
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Location: Berlin | Shep, here is my take on it and how it would effect me on the Winnebago system.
Could I still catch fish on gulp etc.? Sure but not nearly as many or as big. Now I am sure some will disagree but I can tell you this, I have NEVER caught more on artificials fishing the way I do on this system. Now take my live bait away and sure I can still catch some fish but not enough to make me competitive against the trollers. Now I don't mind trolling once in a while but if I had to troll in every tournament, I would quit tournament fishing in a heartbeat.
I am not trying to take anything away from the trollers. There is a tremendous amount of skill in what you do. It is just not for me.
As for drifting if trolling was banned, I say as long as planer boards are not used, have at 'er. |
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| drifting... *cough* em, yeah, ah, dragging is allowed in BASS tournaments.
If live bait is banned, better than 3/4's of the field will troll even on classic rigging, jigging or bobber locations. From my point of view, I can't handle watching footage of trolling. As a walleye fisherman, I can say honestly that most walleye fight like a wet paper bag anyway, add to that a boat going 1.4 mph or more.
If TV action is wanted, they need casting, hookset and fighting fish at the boat. IMHO
Now, that said...are walleye tournaments broke? Not in my mind, I am just responding to the question at hand which was actually based on the border issues with bait. I redirected this towards the talk of banning live bait for the betterment of walleye tournaments as discussed by Al Linder.
I love watching Linder and his pals catching hog walleye on Lindy Rigs with either Gulp or live bait....showing me the structure, the rig and the fish on an underwater camera.....the bite, the buildup by Al and eventually the hookset and the fight. Sure they are trolling with the electric, no matter its slow, precise and done with rigs everybody that has a fishing rod can tie on. |
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| Gulp
Flicker Shad
Slow Death Hooks
Frabill
What is going to be the next well promoted product? I don't see live bait disappearing. Although the great crawler scandal of 2009.....you heard it hear first! |
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| Too bad you still got that attitude Shep.
I don't care if Tony Dean comes back from the dead as a new voice, these still are the same arguements.
"Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and unto God what is God's. Which in this case simply means too each his own and let it be, why does it have to be all one or another. If you can beat a guy using live bait then fish that way and if you can't then well maybe next time you'll change up. If fish numbers are so fickle that we're so worried about mortality then we shouldn't have so many tournaments.
Now if a specific sponser wants to run their own artificial circuit and pony up all the money good for them, but pushing mandates for all tourneys is not going to help the sport and will limit catches. |
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| Are they trolling? Or position fishing?
Ohh, now that is a whole 'nother can o' worms! |
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| What attitude? Your point is that this has already been discussed. If that is a problem, then just don't open this thread and read it! Or post that this has already been discussed.
I never said I am in favor one way or the other. I did say that I think it will happen. Far from supporting it.
And who is calling for a mandate on all tournaments to ban live bait? When I'm discussing it, I am hypothetically talking about a series banning live bait. Not all of them, and I have not singled out any particular one. And where did I ever mention mortality?
This will be my last response to you.
Edited by Shep 1/20/2009 4:14 PM
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| OK Shep; This topic was posted by Jim O last August. It was 3 pages worth and is a really good read. I suggest everyone look it up! |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | Any talk or thought of banning trolling in walleye tournaments is just stupid talk. The backbone of tournament walleye fishing IS trolling. Without trolling you wouldn't have any walleye circuits......enough said!!!! |
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