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Location: Rhinelander | The face of professional walleye angling has changed dramatically over the years, and lately the 'buzz' has focused on perhaps one of the most controversial developments in the Sport.
The concept of forming 'teams' to fish a competitive event is hardly new, it's the base upon which the MWC was built. Teams of two anglers were the very idea, and the format has worked very well; yet even on the Team Circuits, larger 'teams' are forming and pooling knowledge and resources.
Some feel the formation of the organized prefish and tournament time groups has damaged the sport, usually offering ethereal ideals in arguing against the practice. Those who support the practice offer more functional and reality based arguments, but either side can offer a good argument based upon perceived effects on the business.
During the final day live webcast from AIM, the winner talks about prefishing the area in which he won at the advice of his team partners. At the Red Wing FLW, the Top 3 were 'working together'.
I'm curious what both the Anglers think of the practice, and perhaps as importantly, what the fans think.
If one doesn't like info and resource pooling, and would prefer the practice to be prohibited, how would enforcement be achieved?
What are the advantages/disadvantages, to the 'teams' AND to their competitors? To the fans of the sport?
Without singling any one 'team' out or naming names, let's hear your thoughts.
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Member
Posts: 514
Location: Darboy USA | Great topic Steve, and I do agree that the "team" concept is really gaining momentum in the last few years. I guess my own personal opinion is that the "team" concept is a good idea due to the costs associated with fishing premier walleye events. On top of entry fees, an angler has motel, food, gas (huge bill lately), bait, etc. Add to that the lack of vacation time some have, or needing to work as many hours as possible to earn a living since fishing doesn't pay as much anymore, and all are very good reasons to pool resources, fishing time, etc.
While I see the reason why it makes sense and is a good idea, I do also feel in some cases it promotes illegal practices and shortcuts by competitors. Maybe not at the top levels, but some smaller local events could be compromised because of it. Hard to argue against the use of cellphones and even hand signals between "teammates". I saw it in a PWT event on Bago a few years ago while fishing for fun.
While I've been part of a team in the past, I think the only way it really works is if there is a financial stake in it from everyone. Example would be if team is comprised of 3 anglers, then 1/3 of any winnings from each goes into a pot that is divided at the end of the year 3 ways. If there is no money at stake for everyone, what is there to say I'm really going to tell my partners EVERYTHING that I've found and know? I don't think that happens unless all have equal shot to gain.
I don't think there is any way to regulate or outlaw teaming up with others, but will be interesting to see where it goes for future events. I'm really curious to hear from some of the bigger names in the industry to see how they make teams work for them. Like I said, the only way I think it makes sense is to share money.
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Posts: 794
Location: Elgin, Illinois | Teams are here to stay... The degree of cooperation is over a broad spectrum. Some "teams" share all info and do assigned prefishing, even assigned fishing during the event. As far as signals... it is gonna happen. Look at the idea that is not part of any prohibited conduct. Each team member is to fish an assigned area/pattern from start to 9:00am. They are not to leave if they have success. At 11:00 they are to fish another assigned area, unless they have success. The other team members need only be able to identify their teammates boat to know who is doing well and where.. they can then follow that pattern. Three or four teammmates can cover a lot of maybes and be "helpful" to each other without any on the water communication. |
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Posts: 625
Location: LaCrosse, WI | My only problem with teams is that they discourage new anglers from getting into the game. I think that's the case in smaller circuits which we don't really have any of any more (at least on the pro-am level). For example, it was frustrating for me to go fish a league event on water as big as Green Bay by myself (4 hours from home) knowing that there were 4-5 teams with 3-5 boats each.
I can't cover the thousands of acres of water like they can, I'm not from there and don't know it as well. Knowing that you're fishing against 95% of the people that have a lot more experience than you on that water and that half of them are working in teams make it hard to justify spending the money.
I understand why they do it, it gives them an advantage. I just think that unless you're in a team to start with you're going to have an even bigger hill to climb. |
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Posts: 378
Location: Omro,Wi. | There is no way to stop it, so it is a mute question. With the money for entrance fees, gas,time off work,and bait prices, you may as well join a reliable team if you can. Rookie said it best "I can't cover the thousands of acres of water like they can, I'm not from there and don't know it as well." or have the time to learn it for that fact. Besides all of us who have been in a tournament and either had the bite dye or not found a good bite have wished for some helping hands at one time or another. It's fine with me as long as my team is better than the other guys...LOL |
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Posts: 300
Location: Lincoln Park, Mi | I agree, it's here to stay and impossible control, even if it were banned. I think it does inhibit the growth of tournament fishing though by discouraging possible newcomers from competing, unless they're part of an established "team". If walleye fishing and the team concept grow to the right level, I think it could open the door for an "Elite" series, where there is no prefishing, and working as a team is not permitted in any manner. Greg's example is almost impossible to control under any circumstance though. |
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| Just look at the number of entries in the latest aim and flw tourneys. The same group of pros are going to fish every event with their "teams" and a few locals or newcomers will try and fish them. But, once they realize you can't compete with the "teams" they won't continue to fish. If the aim circuit is supposed to determine the best fisherman who can catch the most and biggest fish, why don't they do it on their own? If you are the best fisherman shouldn't you be able to figure the bite out on your own? |
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Posts: 2300
Location: Berlin | Scott, the answer is no unless it is an even playing field. Take Green Bay for instance, can one person compete against a team of 4 boats? Only if they are extremely lucky or know the body of water like the back of their hand. There is just too much water for one boat to cover. I don't have a problem with it but I will tell you from personal experience it is hard to find the right guys to team up with. Money makes some people do strange things. If I were to fish at the "pro" level I would have to fish on a team that shares money. That is the best way to keep everyone honest and upfront with information.
Like them or not the teams that can make it work have the best odds of winning. Finding that many guys that get along and can work together well is harder then winning tournaments  |
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| i fish tournaments and rich you nailed it on the head |
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| Most of the guys that fish tournaments around here, me included, 'buddies up' with other boats and shares pre-fishing info. One of our buddies won a decent sized tourney last year, and thanked his 'team mates' at the presentation. The tourney director approached him afterwards, and asked him to refrain from doing so in the future.
I watched the coverage of last years MWC Championship, and the winners thanked their 'team mates' while up on stage.
I seriously don't see how you could stop people from doing it. |
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| One step at a time....CRR still needs to be carried through the entire tournament world....then you will realize what is REALLY important. Fishing IS an individual sport and you will never grow it until everyone plays that way. Enforcement becomes a moral thing just like culling and slot limits in the current team (2man) format.
I honestly don't believe you will grow until you develop a model where a person is paid to fish and wins other peoples, money here you will find a professional sport that will grow.
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| one more thing. the "elite" tourney should be for all no need for one group to be any different that the other. Also no prefishing, no talking with others including locals or guides, no sharing of infromation etc etc... I believe that is something being done in the Bass world already! |
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| Fishing with a team of boats does take the luster away from the sport. Part of the prerequisite in being called a pro is to find the fish yourself, not be given hints or suggestions or outright told where to fish. Severe monetary retribution would be a suitable deterrent to enforce compliance. |
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Posts: 174
| I fished a tournament last year as a co-angler where one of the Pro's had a guide come in from out of state to do his prefishing before he showed up and his partners download waypoints for him each morning.
I am not sure how you will ever police what is going on.
I know the PWT had a rule where a Pro could not hire a guide before a tournament and that never stopped anybody. |
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| If your worried you can't compete against teams think again. Do your homework put plenty of time in on the water and you will do just fine. I personally find it helpful to work with another boat but would never get involved with a big groups. Big groups are not always the best either because if your not familiar with the people someone will withhold valuable information and then from there it gets ugly. Find some friends to fish with have fun and all will be fine. Competing against the big teams could be intimidating if you let it be!!! One more comment Politics even finds its way into fishing!!! |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | If NASCAR can do it and thrive, competitive fishing can and should do it. Major league teams exchange video of each other before each game.
Create a better team than the rest and quit whining--or don't play the game. "those damn Yankees!" |
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Posts: 3899
| Teams are here, have been here, and will be here in the future. I don't see any way they could be banned. You're on the road, sharing expenses, so even if it was banned, you're going to share info, with someone. Heck, I've even seen it where a member of one team blabbed to members of another team 2 nights before the tourney began!
I don't see anything wrong with it. I've heard people in teams complain about it. Good teams will rise to the top, just like good anglers will. The excuse of being a newbie, and not having the opportunity to be on a team is hooey. If you are good enough to fish a "Pro" level tourney, you'll have information and insight to share. Somebody will find you valuable. Find them, and form a team. Hard work, honesty, and trust are the key ingredients. Pull your weight, don't hold back, and you'll be a good teammate. Once the trust is questioned, it's over for that team. |
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Posts: 2567
Location: Manitowoc, WI | Teams are the way to go for competitive walleye tournament fishing. There is, as I see it, no way to get around them. It's been said multiple times in this forum that given the expense of travel and tournemant fishing anglers must share expense in order to make it work. I cannot see how I could sit in a room with some of my best friends and not share the info.
The relationships I forged with my tournament partners are, to me, worth more than anything I could have ever earned on the tournament circuit. Dan Plautz, Pat Schuette, Danny Plautz, and Jeff Taege....those guys are both my family and friends. If it were not for Team Walleye fishing I would not have these relationships.
I feel for the new guy coming up, trying to make it work, on his/her own. That is why I would suggest a newbie to the sport to spend a year or two traveling as an amateur, take in as much as you can, forge some relationships, and try to become part of one of these teams. That is how I got started. |
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| Bass Classic rules: A good model for all tournaments! Not really "team" related but addresses the sharring of information issue well!
3. PRACTICE AND COMPETITION:
(i) The tournament waters shall be off-limits to all Pro contestants 30 days prior to the first practice day in all Elite Series, Bassmaster Majors, and Bassmaster Classic events unless otherwise notified by BASS. During the 30 day off limits periods, other than using publicly-available information (e.g. newspaper and Internet reports) Pro competitors cannot solicit, receive, or gather any information via phone, electronic devices, or any other means about locating or catching fish on tournament waters. THERE SHALL BE NO EXCEPTIONS. For a first offense, the competitor will be disqualified from the tournament. For a second offense, the competitor will lose his eligibility for the following year's Elite Series events. During practice and competition Pro anglers cannot solicit, receive, or gather any information from co-angler contestants in the tournament. NO EXCEPTIONS. There will be no off-limits for co-anglers.
(ii) There will be an official practice period immediately preceding the first competition day of the tournament. Bassmaster ELITE SERIES Official practice will be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday prior to the first competition day. Bassmaster Major Official Practice will be Monday and Tuesday prior to the first competition day. No competitors will be allowed on Tournament waters after registration until the first day of competition, except under rule 3(iii). Unless otherwise specified, all official times are specific to local host community. The competitor must know and observe these dates. During both the official practice and the tournament, a competitor may not have the assistance or advice of anyone for the purposes of locating or catching bass, nor enter the tournament waters with anyone who has been on the tournament waters during the off-limits period including, but not limited to, a professional guide, state or federal wildlife agency employee, or any other person deemed an "expert" on these tournament waters by the Tournament Director, unless they are a competitor in the tournament. Co-anglers are not allowed to share information with Pro contestants. NO EXCEPTIONS. Flying over tournament waters during official competition is not allowed.
(iii) Anglers renting boat slips may launch boats and proceed immediately to slip location. Testing of engines during off-limits period is not permitted on tournament waters. Testing of engines after the weigh-in is only allowed with permission from the Tournament Director. No Exceptions. During the official practice and during the tournament, a competitor may not "SKIN DIVE" OR "SCUBA DIVE" in the tournament waters.
(iv) No competitor may buy or barter a fishing location from any other competitor for use during any competition day.
(v) During the official competition days of the tournament, a competitor may not use a CB radio, a VHF marine-band radio, a cellular phone, or any other type of communication device for the purpose of locating or catching fish. Competitors are permitted to transmit by radio or telephone only in the event of an emergency. If so equipped, competitors may listen to the marine-band weather information.
(vi) A designated tournament official must be granted access to the competitor's boat at any time during the official practice or competition days. Failure to grant such access may result in immediate disqualification.
(vii) Each competitor agrees to report to the Tournament Director any violation or infraction of any Tournament Rules. Failure to report violations, or suggestions to another competitor that they violate these Rules, or false verification of weigh-in forms will be cause for disqualification.
By signature on the Elite Series participation agreement or the official entry form, each competitor agrees to submit to a polygraph examination and abide by its conclusion should he/she be accused of any rule violation. The BASS Tournament Director or rules committee or such person designated by the Tournament Director shall have the discretion to determine the need for a polygraph examination. The BASS Tournament Director or his/her designee shall be responsible for selecting an independent expert to administer and interpret the results and establishing, in consultation with the expert administrator, the scope of the questions which may be asked during the polygraph examination. The BASS Tournament Director or his/her designee shall attempt to have the location of such polygraph examination as close in proximity to the angler's permanent address or such other mutually convenient location as possible. The competitor shall make himself/herself available at the location selected by the Tournament Director and shall cooperate in all respects with such examination. Anglers taking a polygraph examination may be responsible for any and all cost incurred.
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Posts: 1406
| Wouldn't (iv) above pertain to a violation for a team that shared costs and winnings? If Bass can enforce it why can't the Walleye world?
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| I'll agree that teams are hear to stay but I'd like to make a few comments (for what it's worth.... afterall everyone has an opinion right or wrong)
1 - Sharing of expenses? Really? What other then the hotel and that's the lowest cost factor of the entire tournament. Unless you stay in a 5 start swanky place. Be real, that is a poor excuse.
2 - I keep hearing that in the old days "pro's" did not team up, yet they got along when they hit shore. Now that sounds appealing and FUN. Is FUN allowed in tournament fishing? From my 5 year experience I'd have to say not so much.... Lot's of jealousy and strange behavior... within teams and across teams....
3 - A much more disasterous problem with walleye tournaments is all the "friends" pro's make at common bodies of water. Some of these "friends" are top notch anglers that have no interest in tournament angling due to many legitimate reasons. These "friends" basically put their buddies on fish so the "pro" only has to figure out the presentation. Not so easy for the newbie and makes the playing field more then tilted.
4 - Integrity - not sure I dare touch this one but many of the things said above boil down to integrity. Seems to be a rather gaping hole when it comes to chasing the elusive tournament walleye. Rules are made to play by. Follow them or don't play.
There - got that off my back.....
Kurt |
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Member
Posts: 625
Location: LaCrosse, WI | Like I've said, I don't dislike teams as a whole, but it makes it hard to compete on big water. There's a big difference between fishing against teams on water you know well versus going to hundreds of thousands of acres and trying to pre-fish.
I always find it funny that so many of the tournament guys only consider home water when talking tourneys. We're talking two different levels here. I feel the way I do because I traveled all the way across WI to fish against you guys on your home waters all the time.
Explain to me how 4-5 boats fishing Green Bay (which they know very well) is not an advantage over me in my one boat trying to figure out the hundreds of thousands of acres that I fish once every year or two recreationally. My problem isn't with the teams, it's the fact that I have to spend more money to fish there than 95% of the other entrants and still I have 3-4 less boats worth of info.
That being said, the checks I've cashed on bodies of water farther away from home have been worth more to me than local checks. But at the end of the day, those checks don't pay the bills or even cover expenses. If it comes down to dollars and cents for me to decide if I'm going to fish a tourney 3-4 hours away, the team thing will be a factor in my decision.
It's also funny how many guys want to "Team Up" with you when a big event is going to be on water you know well. I get more phone calls and emails on years when a big event is going to be held on the Mississippi than any other time. Would those guys have called me if a championship was going to be held on Erie? I have a few boats I share some info with, but those are personal friends that are not based on personal gain.
Those folks are people I speak with because they treat me well and expect the same in return. We don't ask anything of each other, but instead BS and share some info when we can (even when it's not tourney time). Teams are here to stay, but like it or not they're not helping draw new anglers in. |
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Posts: 192
| Rich S. knows how I feel about the "Team" thing. I think we spent most of the ride back from a Saginaw Bay MWC tournament arguing and discussing it. I don't like the idea one bit. You will never convince me otherwise. I have a group of good friends that I BS with and may share how the day went, but we are not really working together. We mainly talk to make sure we aren't in each others way during the tournament. How can you have a true Pro rating system with the "Team" thing going on. I've fished with some good guys on the pro tours. They all are great fisherman with no one person seeming that much more talented than the other. Yet none of them are anywhere close to each other on the rating system. Lets face it, most of us are good enough to catch fish when we are on fish. That's the easy part. Very few guys are really good at finding fish though. You get a group with one or two of those guys in there, and they can make everyone in the group look good. My old partner Rich S, is great at both finding and catching fish. I am very good at catching fish, but do lack in the department of finding fish. Because of him, we have cashed some nice checks together. Yes, we both worked great as a team to catch those fish, but he was always the first to come up with the idea on how to find the fish. Without him, I would maybe have half the good finishes i have.
Like I said, I hate the whole "Team" idea, but I realize it will never go away. I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what you do. Luck will always play a huge role in every tournament. All you can do is just try to increase the odds of getting lucky, just like we use to do in High School.
Just my 2 cents... |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even. "Quoting Mark O"
Mark, you may have just hit something right on the head. Practice periods. 2 weeks and teams.
Lets start with, if you have 3 days to pre-fish, what are the odds that everyone in the field will find the same fish as you? not as good as 7 days? Would there be a reason to need a team if you went out and found fish and there was limited time for everyone else to find the same? How about actually wanting to tell others of your fish at that point? I hate tellin'. I like bragging, LOL, but hate tellin'.
I think It would also put new blood in contention. It would also protect the old guard. The new guys would have the ability to find spots that the old guard did not. They would be able possibly hide the bite with the shorten period. The old guard has many irons in the fire on there side and that would help for the return to familiar waters.
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 5/27/2010 4:34 PM
I would however like to see practice periods brought back like they do in the elite series of bass. Then you would see a change in things. I've been in tournaments where the team that won was pre fishing for two weeks. How the hell am I supposed to compete against that. If you ask me, time on the water is more important than the "team" thing. If you start to limit practice time, then I think everyone becomes a little more even. "Quoting Mark O"
Mark, you may have just hit something right on the head. Practice periods. 2 weeks and teams.
Lets start with, if you have 3 days to pre-fish, what are the odds that everyone in the field will find the same fish as you? not as good as 7 days? Would there be a reason to need a team if you went out and found fish and there was limited time for everyone else to find the same? How about actually wanting to tell others of your fish at that point? I hate tellin'. I like bragging, LOL, but hate tellin'.
I think It would also put new blood in contention. It would also protect the old guard. The new guys would have the ability to find spots that the old guard did not. They would be able possibly hide the bite with the shorten period. The old guard has many irons in the fire on there side and that would help for the return to familiar waters.
Closed practice was in place for at least a couple whole seasons on the PWT. Various lengths of 4 days or 5 days of practice was used. All it did was increase the use of local info and made for more crowding of tourney anglers on community spots.
The anglers decided, by majority vote, to end closed practice periods. |
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