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Location: La Crescent, MN | People will eat anything. Its amazing someone can get by under the radar this long selling LIVE bighead carp in Chicago. It will be interesting to see how many of thse are caught on the IL River this year. There was a huge bighead caught at the WAT IL River tournament on the IL r in 2003.
http://www.protectyourwaters.net/news/display.php?id=909
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Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Originally written by zboudreau on 2004-01-16 5:45 PM
People will eat anything. Its amazing someone can get by under the radar this long selling LIVE bighead carp in Chicago. It will be interesting to see how many of thse are caught on the IL River this year. There was a huge bighead caught at the WAT IL River tournament on the IL r in 2003.
http://www.protectyourwaters.net/news/display.php?id=909
Steve.
I see it as just another black number on the uneducated roulette wheel,
that will eventually, someday, crash our Great Lakes ecosystem. Why let something like a whole sportsfishery worth billions, stop a few guys from making a couple buck selling carp? Brother, I'm very much less surprised
about this than I am mad. |
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| I am near Peoria, IL and the Asian/Big Headed Carp have taken over here. Between all the carp species, it's a danger to get in a boat! I was wondering if the Asian Carp sold in the markets are selling for food or for pond stocking? I am asuming for food, and was wondering if this isn't a solution to these pests! Recently I was at an Asian market near Oak Brook and they had a strange assortment of seafood....maybe there is a market, and we could cut down on them. Tho' the way they have seemed to mulitply here...it seems doubtful. Whoever thought of bringing these here should be held accountable for the damage they have and will continue to reek upon our commercail fishing industry, as well as our recreational sport fishermen and women!
Juli
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Just as when the Asians from Vietnam first arrived and set nets in the river here in Manitowoc - without a license, there is no doubt in my mind some Asian got an idea that it would be nice to "stock" them here in the US, so as to not have to pay the price of importing them... |
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Location: Chicago IL. | The DNR needs to do something or the IL river will be back to what it was 15 years ago. John |
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Posts: 51
| If I'm not mistaken, these carp were imported by the catfish farmers down south so as to take care of an alga problem in their ponds. Heavy rains and floods turned them loose into the rivers and streams and it didn't take long for them to find their way to the midwest. Big Head and Silver are the two species causing the problems we all will see eventually.
I have to question why our government allowed them to be imported in the first place.
Big Head and Silver carp, asian beetle bugs, where and when will they learn to stop this importing of foreign species when they have no idea of the consequences? |
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| Herb, you asked a good question, Why our gov't allowed them to be imported in the first place? I suppose you could ask the same question about the 2 legged species from the same countries? Doesn't every living species have a right to this free country? hehehe.
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 1/27/2004 12:19 PM
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| Well, its to late anyway... Soon all the hospitals (staffed by asians) will be serving smoked carp to all us fisherman who are being treated because we were slapped silly by the jumping carp...  |
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Posts: 67
Location: Sth/side Chicago | I know a Asian Carp was caught in one of the local park lagoons in summer 2003. The North American Fishing Club magazine recently had a picture of what some use on the mississippi to protect themselves from injury on the river(a garbage can lid). Most of the populations of Asian carp are said to have come from a fish farm along the mississippi that got flooded in '93 anf they have spread since then. They think the one out of the lagoon may have been released from a fish bought at a market like described above. Supposedly it is some tradition to release a fish like that to mark certain occasions.. South Branch of the Chicago river flows through part of Chinatown, huge huge carp in the Chicago river...I wonder???
Edited by Musky Fishin Kevin 1/27/2004 6:34 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Rick. For me these days, that would not have to be all that hard a carp slap..:) |
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New User
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Location: Mesick,Michigan | well i sure hope they keep that darn carp out of lake michigan period.sounds dangerous to me. |
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| Hi - I am a research fisheries biologist working to combat these fish in the US. I'd like to respond to the question about why the government allowed these fish to be imported. Unfortunately, the way it works in this country (with the feds, anyway, different states have their own regs, but fish have no respect for state boundaries) is that there is a black list of animals and plants that cannot be imported live. (the Lacey Act "injurious species list") Once a species is listed, it cannot be imported into the US or across state lines. There is a huge number of animals and plants out there in the world, and it takes a huge effort to get a species listed on the black list (the bighead and silver carp still are not on the black list, because there are still some people who want to move the fish around.) This means that anybody can bring anything they want to into the country, as long as it hasn't been blacklisted. The National Aquatic Invasive Species Act (NAISA) would change that in favor of a "white list" of approved species for import, which makes a lot more sense. However, this would place more regulations on industries like the pet trade and the aquarium trade and some kinds of agriculture. And people want to be able to buy a snakehead for their aquarium (snakeheads are now "injurious", but you can still get one if you don't have to transport it over state lines, or you don't get caught) or some goofy african rodent for a pet (even if it does carry diseases that kill people). People don't like to be regulated, and NAISA would result in significant new regulations. It doesn't look like NAISA will pass, at least under the current administration. |
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| In other words, "It's too late, learn to live with it".
Thanks carptracker. Been reading your posts on other sites about this subject, and looks like you've been doing a great job of keeping us informed. |
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Location: El Paso, Illinois 61738 | GLAD TO HEAR THAT THERE IS SOME BEING SOLD. WE HAD A BIOLOGIST ATTEND THE SPRING VALLEY WALLEYE CLUB MEETING THIS MONTH TO DISCUSS THIS PROBLEM AND IT IS A PROBLEM. THIS IS WHAT I GOT OUT OF THE PRESENTATION.
--THEY REPRODUCE AT AROUND 200,000 EGGS PER FEMALE A YEAR
--THEY WILL EAT DOUBLE THERE WEIGHT PER DAY UNBLEIVABLE 4# CONSUMES 8#@DAY
--THEY LIKE HIGH WATERS YEARS FOR BEST REPRODUTION
--THEY MAINLY FEED ON PLANKTON WHEN SMALL AND THEN GO AFTER THE SHAD
--ONCE THEY DEPLETE THE SHAD THEN YOUR SPORT FISHING SUFFERS
WHAT"S THE GAME PLAN?
--THEY ARE TRYING TO CREATE A MARKET FOR THESE THINGS. RIGHT NOW ONLY ABOUT 20 CENTS A POUND TO THE COMMERCIAL FISHERMAN. (NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM TO GO AFTER)
--THEY ARE A DELI ITEM FOR THE ASIANS AS THEY HAVE ALMOST DEPLETED THEM IN THERE COUNTRY
--THERE IS A DEAL IN THE WORKS THAT IF IT GOES THEY WOULD BE COMMERICALING ABOUT 50,000 A DAY OUT OF THE ILLINOIS RIVER
--THE ELECTRO BARRIER TO KEEP THEM OUT OF LAKE MI. IS IN NEED OF REPAIR WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR. (NO BUDGET MONEY GO FIGURE)
--IN CONJUCTION WITH THE CORP OF ENGINEERS THEY WANT TO INSTALL ANOTHER ONE.
THESE WAS SOME OF THE HIGH POINTS. IT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM IN THE ILLINOIS, MISSISSIPPI AND MISSOURI RIVER SYSTEMS.
HOPEFULLY THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GET SOME CONTRACTS SIGNED WITH ENOUGH MONEY FOR THE COMMERCIAL GUYS TO GO AFTER THEM.
UNTIL THEN THE BEST THING IS TO HOPE FOR LOW WATER. LOW CURRENT IN THE MAY/JUNE TIME FRAME WHICH IS NORMALLY WHEN THEY SPAWN.
BE CAREFUL WHEN RUNNING IN SHALLOW WATER THESE THINGS WILL JUMP RIGHT IN THE BOAT. LAST YEAR WE HAD ONE GUY RUNNING AT ABOUT HALF SPEED IN 6 FOOT AND ONE CAME OVER THE BOW AND SMACKED HIM IN THE CHEST.
BOB |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | I disagree with the statement "It's too late, learn to live with it".
An article in the Milwaukee rag stated that if it makes it to Lake Michigan, the trout, salmon and lake sturgeon will be wiped out.
IMHO, this is a emergency and all agencies need to work together to come up with a solution, not turn our backs and just say it's too late. |
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| You mean bunches of nice fat natual saugers and no fishing pressure?
The DNR can only do so much in this case. These imported species are a national problem. The state has placed electric fences in the chicago river to 'prevent' these carp from passing through to lake michigan but we all know that's a pipe dream.
These are the good old days my freinds - these are the good old days.
Hopefully, big head carp will feast on zerba muscles and gobies. |
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| Sunshine, I truely hope they do come up with a solution-but I doubt it happens. Commercial fishing seems to be an answer to keeping them in check IF there is a market for them. And anyone who's ever commercial fished knows that markets can soon get flooded to where there is no demand for the product fish.
Electric barriers, especially on rivers such as the Miss and Missouri, don't seem feasable to me since they are so prone to flooding and going out of their banks during that period. Down my way, when the Miss. River floods, it goes everywhere it wants and so will the carp.
I wish I could be more positive about this but, I just haven't read or heard anything to make me think otherwise. |
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Location: Sth/side Chicago | "GLAD TO HEAR THAT THERE IS SOME BEING SOLD"... Are you serious? You must be kidding, really, how else do you think it became a problem? They are sold LIVE! Not dead ready to eat. Supposedly the Chinese buy the live fish, and then release them to honor something, a relative dying or something like that. They were being raised in a fish farm in Misouri back in '93 when the Mississippi flooded, coming over the banks and flooding the fish farm. No good is going to come out of these fish being in our lakes. We have Zebra Mussels in lakes not connected to the Great Lakes. Why? Everyone thought, oh well, its too late, why worry about it now. Or even worse, they thought, why should I waste my time cleaning out my bilge and washing down my boat, I don't have the time to do that. Yeah, now we have Zebra Mussels in tons of lakes. Milfoil? Bass Tournaments helped the spread of that. Why? See above about Zebra Mussels. I know of people who have caught Grass carp and released them back into the water..You know CPR with everything. Grass Carp are not good for the lakes either. As for getting by under the radar, they have a license to sell this stuff. The state has never asked why the fish need to be alive. The fish in the Il river are coming from the Mississippi, not the Chicago River. The bElectric Barrier is to keep them from coming up the Il to the Chicago. However due to lack of funds or something stupid the project got delayed and anglers are reporting catches on both sides of the barrier. Sorry for the rant here but this is a topic that bothers me and saying "oh well, lets start a commercial fishery for them instead of finding a way to get rid of them" is not what I want to hear people say about this problem. The electric barriers can work on the Sanitary and shipping canal in Chicago because unlike the rivers it is not prone to flooding.
Edited by Musky Fishin Kevin 2/17/2004 10:49 AM
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Canada, and every State bordering the Great Lakes ought to be so concerned that each provide enough time and money to stop these carp. |
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| The quote "It's too late, learn to live with it" is not by me so don't take it as such.
But I try to be realistic about these matters. It's going to be mighty hard to control something that we can't see. You talk about an electric barrier stopping these fish in a canal that isn't prone to flooding. That's fine. But here's why it might not be the cure all. Do you have pelicans, herons, and cormorrants in your area? These birds catch lots of fish as we all know, but they don't always eat them right away. Many times they'll catch a fish and fly away to another area to eat so as not to be disturbed or have their meal stolen. Even then, not all fish are consummed. Some escape to live a healthy life in their new home.
How else do think fish such as bullheads get started in farm ponds that have never seen a human being since the pond was completed?
I don't mean to ramble, and I know something has to be tried to stop this invasion. But the biologist's track record on stopping invasive species is pretty dismal right now. Ussually by the time they get done studying it, it's too late. I certainly applaude 'carptracker' for keeping us updated though, and I do know he's on top of the situation.
I'll get off my soap box now. |
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Location: Sth/side Chicago | Herb, I didn't take it as such. I know what your saying about the barriers though, lots of Heron's around the Chicago area, and I think a decent amount of Comorrants. They studied the barriers for a year or so, went to go do it but turned out they had no funds, finally did it and fish were being caught on both sides... They originally planned the barrier to prevent Goby from getting down into the Il river from the Chicago(another one of our lovely nuiscance fish). There were a couple reports a few months after it was finally installed of guys catching Goby on the Il river. Now there are reports that it needs to be repaired. |
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| Lack of funding is most certainly going to be a major drawback if and when a method of control is decided upon. I wonder if it's possible to collect damages from the aquaculture industry? |
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| Herb – lack of funding will likely be a problem. Minnesota is considering suing certain aquaculturists or possibly the federal government (which, depending on who you talk to, may have had a hand in this) or the state of Arkansas. My guess is that suing aquaculturists will unproductive – whether it is true or not, they’ll claim you can’t get blood from a turnip. Best you could do would be to put some people out of business, but there is no real money there. Same for Arkansas. Suing the federal government might generate something, but that would take a very, very, long time. And most of the money would likely be chewed up by lawyers. Then, after all that, we know what happened to tobacco settlement money. For heaven’s sake, in North Carolina, they used it to build tobacco drying sheds. Sorry I’m such a pessimist. But getting lawyers involved usually is unproductive, IMHO. What you can do is make some politician realize that his odds at getting re-elected go up if there is some money thrown at this problem.
Also, I’d like to address the “too late now” sentiment. You are right, that we’ve had little luck with the aquatic invaders so far. We are getting better at it though. We are starting to get a handle on some of the plants (although the more emergent the better, in general). We have some new tools, and we are starting to think outside the box to better control invaders. At my lab we are trying to use sex pheromones to bring the carp to us during spawing migrations so we can kill them en masse (and maybe sell them to get the money to run the operation??). There is the daughterless carp technology developed in Australia, which has a way to go before we’ll feel safe using it here, but it could potentially result in the extermination of targeted species. There are other things we can do like barriers and education on bait bucket transfer to slow the spread of these things. A better understanding of the fishes’ life cycles will enable us to dream up ways to better control them. Basically, things might get worse before they get better, but all is not lost.
On marketing these fish – I am all for the harvest of bighead and silver carp, but they should all be dead before they go anywhere. However, there are dangers involved in encouraging the commercial harvest: 1. If someone is making money off them in one place, they may move them around to be able to make money elsewhere too. 2. If we generate a large capitalized industry around these beasts, there will be money involved, and people that are making money hate to stop making money. I don’t want to be managing for Asian carp ten years from now. Incidentally, silver and bighead carp really are pretty damn good eating, if you learn to deal with the bones. They don’t dress out well (lots of head and guts and a small amount of meat), they have lots of intramuscular bones, and it is damn hard to tie those zooplankton flies on those number 200 hooks, so catching them on a hook and line is tough. So as a sport fish, I don’t think they’ll make it. But I definitely think it will be possible to sell these fish commercially and develop a market. I’m just not sure of the wisdom of developing a highly capitalized industry.
It wasn’t Asian people who originally brought these fish over to the US. It was the Malone fish hatchery in Arkansas. I don’t know of any escapes that have been traced back there though (although there have been no attempts that I know of to trace any of the early escapes). There wasn’t a lot of griping about it though within much of the state and federal government, although scientists were divided. There were a few sports writers who were on top of the grass carp importation and roundly denounced it. But the bighead and silver carp mostly went under that radar screen. You will hear a lot that the fish escaped in the 93 flood from hatcheries in Arkansas and Missouri, but the fish were in the wild long before that. Bigheads were showing up in the wild in Arkansas as early as 1980. I do think they got off a pretty good reproduction during those flood years.
http://www.cerc.usgs.gov/pubs/center/pdfDocs/Asian_carp-2-2004.pdf
Kevin - On zebras - this just in - they found zebra mussel veligers (babies) in water samples in the Missouri River below Gavins point dam in South Dakota. Presence of veligers means there is an established population of adult zebras somewhere upstream. There is no way this could have happened without human transport, on boats or other gear, or just possibly in transported water. Too much people moving boats around without inspecting their gear.
one more thing - I just got a partial translation of a german doctoral dissertation that found that silver carp "nearly wiped out" fish that spawned in the sublittoral zone and had pelagic zooplankton-eating fry. To us, that means perch and walleye. Also, crappie fry and fingerlings are very pelagic zooplankton feeders, although they spawn in the littoral zone. Fish with fry that stayed more in the littoral zone (bass and bluegill) were less effected. |
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Location: Milw, WI | We as fisher men(people), got to find a way to catch them, then kill all you catch.
This wait and see thing is a slow sure agonizing killer.
Kill one invasie and bring it in, kill all the little buggers and till them in to the garden.
In two day this past summer I must have fed 200 golbies to the ducks on shore and they lined up to get them.
Wish they would get them their self but they don't.
Just can not stand it any more to watch a fishery get wiped out again in my life time. |
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| Very informative carptracker and thanks for setting things straight. Please keep us updated. |
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