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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Hold onto your hats folks.
Got a little revision to what I personally thought was the slider rig formula being used this week on the Bay with the bottom bouncers. Seems I had the right church, but was in the wrong pew. Don't get me wrong. My first impulse about the rig and how it was being used, reminded me strongly of my own slider rig and how I was setting it up. But this new way takes it to the next level and is not the way I innitially thought this rig was being used. Oh, it's State legal enough all right. But a lot more complicated than I originally thought.
I had the dynamics about this rig right, but was missing the refined way it was being used to fish for both suspended fish and bottom huggers at the same time. How you ask?
By using a smaller, revised stacker pinch tab in the same way Salmon fishermen use them when stacking one rod shallower than the other on the same downrigger cable. But instead of using those heavy electrical clip pinch pads that Big Jon supplies for Salmon, use the old yellow or Red pinch pads that Mr. Deshano provides with each of his In Line OFF-SHORE planer boards.
Let out the crank or bouncer to run near or on the bottom. Then reel as many feet back on the reel to coinside with how many feet down you want the suspended harness to run. Attach this combo pinch pad/little wire or mono (hold line) leader with snap to the main line, so it stays with the mainline even after it releases the slider. What's holding it in place on the mainline is the pinch pad itself that is connected first and deeply enough in the pad to not let go. But if it does, the line and snap will keep it on the mainline so you won't loose it. Put the (3 to 6 foot) slider line only the slightest way into the pinch pad after it is thrown out and attach the end of the slider leader on the mainline below the pinch pad, so when a fish releses it, it will then slide down the mainline to the bouncer or crank.
Leaving a little slack in the line between where you attach it to the pinch pad and where it's connected to the mainline via the snap often gives the light biters enough slack after the innitial hit, to bring them back and swallow the rig as it flutters through the water column towards the crank or bouncer below. You will also have to remove the pinch pad like you would a snap weight when you reach it as you reel in, but you can now fish both suspended and bottom fish.
I'm guessing this set-up will cause some tangles when pulling in the fish. And I know these instructions sound way more complicated than it really is. But the trade off may be not pulling in any fish. I'll opt for the mess with more fish in the box. 
Edited by walleye express 8/9/2004 4:24 PM
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| Thanks Dan, I take it you talked to the winners about this because of all the confusion about the systems legality. Seems like they just remembered their old salmon tactics that we all forgot. Sometimes we just get lazy and don`t want to give the more troublesome methods a try, again thanks Dan |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Ya know.
I've recently taken some flack and looks like I'll be loosing some "friends" over the posting of this new/old technique. It's exact rigging details were related to me, this was/is not something I invented myself. My spoon slider rigs have many of the same principals and dynamics in common and are along the same lines, but not quit the same. But lets face it, sliders and stacking lines in all it's dementions have been around for years. Moreover, I was not asked at the time to keep it a secret by the teller, so like I always do, I shared the technique and info with all to inhance everybodies fishing success. I'm not getting paid for it, nor gaining any personal favors from anybody for doing so. I've helped and shared information about the bay, it's Hot Spots and the techniques used on it with about 100 or more people who haved e-mailed or personally called me in the last year, including Pro's and amatures alike. And with some closer "friends", practically on a day by day basis, after many of my charters. Non of them seemed to have any personal problems about me doing that for them. Nor have I sworn them to secrecy about what I've shared with them. I'm sorry, but I still don't get it.
Am I truly that far off base about what fishing is and what it means to the average guy? Has the life of some people become so mundane that beating in every way the people who they call friends one moment, are so quickly dismissed and with all that came before because they shared a fishing technique with everybody? And is any fishing technique in todays world actually a new technique? Does it always have to be some covert operation where it's always you agains't me when on the water. And just because a pro fisherman hits on a new technique, is it suppose to be kept secret like government documents? Everybody who knows me personally knows that I hold virtually nothing back (save waypoint numbers) when asked by anybody. Is this really that terribly wrong?
Edited by walleye express 8/10/2004 9:12 PM
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Oh Dano!
You've been stung by the tournament angler! Secretive to the point of paranoia, these lessor of anglers do not deserve the time for you to be so frought over. Beleive me, they will stab you in the back at a moments notice should it mean they will gain a few places in the standings.
I have, and will continue to enjoy your insight! |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Thanks, Rick.
I guess I always knew that what you said to have some merrit as far as the pro's go. But this is of course to the very few, their only monitary means of support. So I can see having an ace in the hole for as long as you can. I guess I truly have to understand that the way I feel about and see this subject of constant covert fishing, is really not how some people see or feel about it. I'm just wondering how long it was going to take for the Walleye Insider or the inventor of the technique himself to break the technique or publish a article on it. How long can a winning technique be kept secret in a field of 150+ boats? Sadly, I don't see me changing the way I am about sharing fishing info. So to be fair, I suggest nobody share any info with me that you don't want passed on. Because I still see fishing as the sport and passion my Dad introduced me to. |
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Location: Milw, WI | Dan,
Got blasted for outting it with controversy last week.
You just shared some thing you thought we should all know. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Express, Amen. That's what WalleyeFIRST is all about, sharing information and good news about catching walleyes. I take a fair amount of crap for much the same thing in the world of Muskie Angling, so I know how you feel. What, a new technique should be a secret? Not. In Fish was a funnel for years for new information like that, and believe me, most came from others. Don't worry about it too much, I heard about the technique before you posted it, and I am a Muskie angler. |
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| Dan , don`t loose any sleep over it, a true freind is always a freind, and remember this saying that was told to me many years ago, " Don`t matter if it`s your sister or your brother, your mother or your father, MONEY MAKES PEOPLE ACT FUNNY! |
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| Cap'n Dan,
I don't know why anyone would get bent about your post. That technique won't work on fish anywhere else besides Sag Bay hehe. Keep up the good work and the informative posts.
Tim |
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| I wrote the Wisconsin DNR to see if I could try something like this on Winnebago and I will post his reply below. Chris
"Our law states an angler may use 3 lines, baits or poles. The options of how many poles to use is up to the angler. (3 baits on one pole or 1 bait on each of 3 poles) In the case of trolling you may run 3 lines, assuming you have only 1 bait on each line. By "sliders", I'm assuming you mean lines running off a planer board wire that release when you have a hit. In this case you would be allowed 3 sliders per angler."
Mark Shepherd
Warden-Winneconne
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| Capt. Dan,
Good post - I was wondering a bit about the actual rigging of the technique as it was described in the controversial tournament post a week or two ago - whenever it was... Decided not to post then as the thread had already gone downhill.
I'm picturing what you are describing - makes sense.
If I were to run it though I think I'd just run it the way we've run fixed sliders off or riggers for salmon fishing for years. Rather than messing around with the offshore release and a snapswivel around the mainline above the bouncer I'd just put a loop in my line then hitch an appropriate sized rubber band (probally the same size 10 bands I use on my big planar board releases) at the appropriate spot I wanted the slider to run and loop the snapswivel that was on the slider leader through the band and around the mainline.
I can see the benefit of this in a four line / tournament type situation, but you must have a lot more patience than me to try to incorporate this into a 10-12 line charter situation....but then again somedays you gotta do what you gotta do!
Steve
PS - How's the TR1 treating you? The pics you sent after getting it installed looked like it would be a great setup. What I'm really interested in is how good does it keep control in less than ideal conditions? Are you able to use it in most all conditions you fish or do you sometimes have to run the big motor to keep control.
You can email me if you'd prefer on the TR1 ?s
Steve Carlson
[email protected]
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| Chris,
For the most part the discussion of these slider rigs revolves around MI law. Where they were used in recent tourneys. In MI anglers are allowed 2 lines and 2 baits per line for a total of 4 baits, not including salmon fishing.
Dan, thanks for the explanation on these rigs. It makes more sense on how they were run. |
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| Just wondering why a posting from last evening that didn't agree with Dan diseminating information, (that wasn't his to give out) is now not on this site, (from Guest ). This is my second visit to this site and obviously the site manager censures whatever material he doesn't agree with.
Professional teams-football, basketball, etc... don't give out their plays/game plans to the competition. If seems illogical to me to give the competition information that may cost a professional angler money in a tournament. If Dan wants to give out his own information, fine...but it's common sense that information that provides people a livelihood that is not his to give out should be kept private. Answer is, some people are more interested in appearances of knowledge than acting responsibly. :- |
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| Giving out someone's specific spots is one thing, but I'm sorry, a fishing rig is not a game plan, and like every other technique it depends heavily on when, where, and how you use it.
I doubt Dan explaining a variation on a slider rig (common rig, I just read the description, and it's a stacker rig) is going to cost anyone their livelihood; that assumes that someone's livelihood was dependant on the information in the first place, which it isn't. If someone is basing their livelihood on someone not figuring out that they are catching fish on a certain walleye fishing rig then that was probably a pretty short-sighted life decision.
BTW, ido you really think a football team or baseball team has never shared info or stolen a signal during a game, or analyzed another team's game plan (film review?, it's there for everyone to see every week) ? |
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| "This is my second visit to this site and obviously the site manager censures whatever material he doesn't agree with." I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, Guest 2.
I'd say Walleye First has shown great leaniency towards all posts and have kept the bashing to a minimum. I've seen moderators come right out and tell people they are out of line and defend they're reasoning. So please don't cry foul here.
Zach, outstanding answer. |
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Member
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. |
PS - How's the TR1 treating you? The pics you sent after getting it installed looked like it would be a great setup. What I'm really interested in is how good does it keep control in less than ideal conditions? Are you able to use it in most all conditions you fish or do you sometimes have to run the big motor to keep control.
You can email me if you'd prefer on the TR1 ?s
Steve Carlson
[email protected]
Steve.
I'll be brutely honest about the TR-1. It's a trolling dream come true in flat water and waves approaching 3 feet. But in waves above that or in a stiff wind the sheer mass, height and weight of my Grady White renders it's almost usless. But I expected and was told as much when I bought it. It was developed for pro type fishing boats and not really developed for boats in the 5 ton category. But again, it's function, course reliability, gas and engine saving convenience cannot be beat for the most part. And I've only had one charter day all summer, where I had to resort to using one of the main engines to troll instead of the Yammie 8HT kicker. |
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| guest 2,
No, actually from what I have seen the moderators here don't necessarily agree or disagree with what was said when a post is pulled. If a moderator sees a personal attack it's gone. You can say your piece, that is no problem. Just be sure to say what is on your mind without taking personal shots while expressing your opinion.
Please, though. I have been in this game for 30 plus years, and have seen the development of more 'new' techniques than you can count, many of which are accepted as 'standard' stuff. This is a variation of a technique that has been around a very long time. It should be kept private? Why? And, how long do you suppose that would even be possible? I have to agree with WalleyeFIRST here, they said it well.
I suppose Gary Parsons and Keith Kavajecz should have kept their varied planer board techniques silent. Bottom bouncers should have been TOP SECRET. Mark Romanack should have NEVER published that crankbait data. And the Lindners, those guys were REALLY off the edge giving up techniques that should have remained forever Private.
The fellow who developed the modification should be publicly, openly proud of the idea, and take full credit where it's due, THAT is worth more in this business than any possible next event win or loss. Nothing like this stays 'secret' long, especially if the idea works and a tournament or two is won using the set-up. |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Guest 2.
This may come as a surprise to you, but after long self deliberation I just called and sincerely apologized to the man who told me about this rig and it's working dynamics. Even though at the time he did not tell me to keep it under my hat, out of respect to our friendship, I should have at least called him to ask if I could indeed broadcast it to the fishing public.
To this degree, I admit I was wrong and this scenerio (given the circumstances) will never happen in this way or fasion again. But my belief that all fishing info either found or discovered is fair game, still stands. But closer considerations about tactics and techniques shared between friends, should in essence be privy until otherwise verbally released by them for display.
And in essence your right about the livelyhood of professional fishermen. What they know, learn and how they apply it for the most part in the fishing game, is indeed their security blanket. But I won't retreat from my stance that it's sad, to turn what is to so many, something more meaninfull than a continous competition, into precisley that.
Edited by walleye express 8/11/2004 9:35 PM
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| walleye express - 8/11/2004 12:39 PM
PS - How's the TR1 treating you? The pics you sent after getting it installed looked like it would be a great setup. What I'm really interested in is how good does it keep control in less than ideal conditions? Are you able to use it in most all conditions you fish or do you sometimes have to run the big motor to keep control.
You can email me if you'd prefer on the TR1 ?s
Steve Carlson
[email protected]
Steve.
I'll be brutely honest about the TR-1. It's a trolling dream come true in flat water and waves approaching 3 feet. But in waves above that or in a stiff wind the sheer mass, height and weight of my Grady White renders it's almost usless. But I expected and was told as much when I bought it. It was developed for pro type fishing boats and not really developed for boats in the 5 ton category. But again, it's function, course reliability, gas and engine saving convenience cannot be beat for the most part. And I've only had one charter day all summer, where I had to resort to using one of the main engines to troll instead of the Yammie 8HT kicker.
GREAT TO HEAR DAN!
And exactly what I was hoping to hear. I had one of (if not the only) 25 Carolina Classics rigged with a kicker and I'd agree - it was awesome for up to around 3 footers and then I needed the main motor. Awesome for keeping hours off the main engine(s) and fuel compared to my old carbed 454. Mine was tied into my outdrive with the EZSteer system and used my main AP - worked well but struggled more that I'd expect your kicker designed TR1 to. Anyways I was just curious and glad to hear it works as you expected.
We will save some Huron/Vermillion HAWGS for you... (ps bring rubber bands...LOL)
Steve |
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Posts: 2680
Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Don't know much about the EZ-steer system. But the system that TR-1 comes with is something to behold. You'll never see straighter lines on your plotter. It's the same hydraulic steering system they put on airplane auto pilots. And instead of a slow fluxgate compus and mechanical steering that is subject to wave action, they use GPS technology for the steering. How? You got me.
Combine this with the twin cylindar Yammie HT8 horse kicker, and the quick, quiet, fluid movements that the hydraulic master cylindar block imparts to the kicker, it has to be seen to be believed. Both the MWT and MWC guys I took out before both tourneys were in AW and were going to look up Gary (Bo) Bowman as soon as they could. No bull.
Edited by walleye express 8/11/2004 3:02 PM
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| Captain Dan,
Amazing isn't it that we as charter captains are always being asked by these traveling "PRO's" to share all of our where, when, and hows of our home waters freely, but if we share any of the "facts", or truth, after the tournament, we are the scorn of the earth! Since in the mind of the all knowing and ever wise "Guest 2", we are taking from the pockets of these "PRO's" we should start charging these same people when we share our common knowledge since they feel so free to profit off OUR KNOWLEDGE!
Only a struggling "wanna be" pro would even consider saying something like that on this, or any other public forum.
Take care friend. |
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| My God, it's just stacking lines people! It;s not like he invented a new technique, just a new way of doing it. We knew how he was dong it and still didn't do it even though there is a defnite advantage of running 8 vs. 4 harnesses, there is however a disadvantage too, tangles during a tourney.
I would really lik o know what percentage of his fish came off the bouncers? My bet is not many.
Rob |
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| Rob Stratt - 8/11/2004 3:42 PM
My God, it's just stacking lines people! It;s not like he invented a new technique, just a new way of doing it. We knew how he was dong it and still didn't do it even though there is a defnite advantage of running 8 vs. 4 harnesses, there is however a disadvantage too, tangles during a tourney.
Rob
Rob,
Yeah - sounds pretty straight forward - just a stacked line...not sure what all the fuss was all about??? Did sound pretty interesting with some of the initial descriptions of lines being tied to a boat cleat??? Also agree with you on the tradeoff between more lures in the water compared to potential problems / tangles. This time it paid off for them. I don't like anything that makes us slow down / increases the chances for tangles, etc. and therefore rarely run threeways/stackers but on a slow day it can often make a difference. It is kind of entertaining to see both sides of this.
Steve
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Location: Milw, WI | There is no reason to try this here (WI), unless you only own 1 pole, and planner.
Because of the weather this year, most of the fish came on bouncers.
And remember just because it is a bottom bouncer , doses not mean it is on the bottom.
Edited by Richfish 8/12/2004 10:35 AM
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Location: Devils Lake, ND | This has become a very interesting thread. From sharing a technique, to scorned for doing so, to TR-1, to how pro's don't share information, but take all they can get.
Apart from the TR-1 thing, I can relate to all of this from every side of the coin.
I am a full time touring pro on the PWT (for those that don't know) as well as a guide on Devils Lake, ND. I do my share of begging for help from Charter Captains. I appreciate all the help they can give me, and I respect them for what they have to do every day to make a living. I try very hard, especially during practice to stay off of their spots. Catch two or three fish to make sure I am on the pattern that they gave me and then fish somewhere else.
Case in point, Lake Erie, Cleveland OH. I spoke to several charter boat operators and local fishermen. They pointed me to the Lorain Sandbar area. I fished there long enough to catch 4 fish one day with the PWT film crew. My partner fished there long enough to catch 6 fish over the week of pre-fish. We both fished the tourney there and finished 26th and 15th. We did our fine tuning one fish at a time and during the tournament. For 6 days we stayed away form the spot, of course on tourney days you have to fish the fish all day, but I try to respect the local Charters and give them all the room I can when I can.
I also thank these guys profusely and try to do as much for them as they did for me. Obviously they will most likely not be in Devils Lake any time soon. Although you would be suprised by how many guys have come out here duck hunting on my invitation. I share tactics that may have worked for me on tournament day that they had not suggested, and I have given plenty of tackle away over the years to my Helpers.
The flip side is I give the same info away here at home. The RCL fished DL this spring. Because of the lack of an RCL boat, I could not fish. I shared locations, techniques and lures with several guys that made the top two cuts. One of the gentlement never saw DL before in his life. I felt great seeing that happen. Do I care if he tells the spots, no. Actually I would be upset if he didn't. It is his job as a professional to let the public know what worked for him on DL.
Bottom line is this, I feel, wether a Charter Captain, Guide, or Tournament Pro, our job is to make fishing better for everyone involved. When I figure something out that works, I tell about it. As a pro that can get me some good ink in a magazine or on tv. As a guide, it will get me more business because telling someone and showing someone are two different things. If enough folks here about Johnnie Candle stacking lures on DL, they will come to see it work for themselves.
Do I want a competitive advantage, of course. Do I get one very often, no way. I may as well take advantage of the benefits of sharing what I have learned and do my job of teaching others to fish. Winning tournaments and filling coolers are not the only two jobs of fishing guides and tournament pros.
Hopefully, some day we will all be able to realize this and fishing will be better for everyone. For now, I say way to go guys that share and who has time for those that don't.
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