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Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | What is the biggest ethical issue in Walleye Tournaments today? You may add your own if you're registered Edited by Shep 6/15/2005 7:35 AM | ||
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| weedbass |
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Member Posts: 20 Location: Campbellsport WI | Shep, These are all tournament issues but which one do you think we would have the best chance to control? Your certainly not going to eliminate tailpiping or talking to others or giving signs. So you eliminate one of them. You take something away that is a physical object. | ||
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| walleye express |
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 Member Posts: 2680 Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Shep. Again, while not personally being on the tournament circuit, I'll keep the survey results clean by not answering. But will respecfully re-submit one of my answers from the cell phone thred concerning ethics, as it applies here as well. I think Thumper hit on what this cell problem is really about, and where it may be headed. Most of us fishing today have been instilled with the right and wrong way to do things by our Dad's at an early age. If Dad was the kind that cared little for the resource and the limits set for harvesting fish, the son learned that that was O.K. to continue doing in his adulthood. If skirting the rules is given a pass or a wink as the competitor works his way up the latter via small tourneys, his misgivings about doing so and even his skills in applying what he's learned, becomes fined tuned in the larger ones. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Dan, As always, I welcome your perspective on all things walleye. You always have a keen grasp of things. Weedbass, I think tailpiping can be controlled. It would take some work on the part of the directors, but there is a way. | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Tailpiping.....yes definitely a problem in the FLW circuit but not as big an issue, to my knowledge, in the PWT. Communication during events......also a problem but not the biggest problem. Cell phones/mobile phones/text messaging......our biggest problem, without a doubt. Here's another question that needs to be answered: Should communication be allowed between competitors during a tourney? I'm speaking about information being passed about a bite, type of lure used, or a location. Currently, the FLW does NOT allow a pro to get information from a co-angler or non-entrant during tourney hours but DOES allow information to be passed between fellow professionals. Edited by jerry 6/15/2005 1:58 PM | ||
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| Gordy |
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Member Posts: 279 Location: Rockford MN | I think the whole thing comes down to ground rules! Make the rules straight forward, NO what if's! I had a tread on another site about Tailpiping, most had the same veiw others had the " You don't own the lake" view. If infact you did not "Pre-fish the area you don't belong there on day 2 or 3 because someone is doing better than you! Phones and on the water communication are a ethics problem, however if the rules are not spelled out in black and white people will view them differently! Sportsmenship is basiclly gone from "Professional" fishing, to much money is invested and stands to be made! People have changed over the years, the "They do it" so why should'nt I mentality is taking over the sport. Please make a set of standard rules that everyone must follow!! All these events can be what they started out to be by just making rules and really sticking to them! Enough complaints about an guy or team should send up "Red Flags" then just remove that element when needed. There are way to many stories out there about what some people are getting away with! Someone needs to take charge and set ground rules for ALL curcuits to follow, and BAN the folks that feel the need to bend or break the rules. It would be nice to just once fish a tournament that not one person had any problems with questional happenings on the water! | ||
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| Jim Ordway |
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Member Posts: 538 | Jerry, I do not know if you can or want to stop people from exchanging information during non tourney hours. Same goes with exchanging with tourney entrants vs non tourney entrants. Why penalize a guy who had friends casually fishing versus well conected team members? I don't see how you could stop this information flow anyway, so why bother? The other issues listed by Shep are basic ethical issues that we all should follow. Often, at least on the inland lakes, the schools of fish have many boaters working them and just because you show up to work them does not make you a tailpiper, of course, unless, you just happen to know that boat number xyz had good weight yesterday and he happens to be in the pack! There are many interesting comments on this subject. People have mentioned some creative methods used to get that unethical edge that I never imagined. It will be interesting how these issues effect future regulations. Take care, Jim O Edited by Jim Ordway 6/15/2005 11:34 AM | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Jim, I have no problem with the exchange of information during non-tournament hours or during prefish with anyone. The problem is during tourney hours, as allowed on the FLW Tour. That is what I was referring to. It's well documented that it takes place and, in answering a protest this year, it was declared legal by FLW Tour officials to communicate with another pro about location and presentation during tournament hours. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Jerry, No protest was filed at Lake Erie. The question was asked and answerred by Sonny at the rules meeting. I overheard a conversation at Green Bay one morning while waiting for the launch. Seems a few people were discussing this very topic. I guess it was the verbal part they had issues with, because when I asked Ted what the big deal was, everybody uses some form of hand signal, he, well, that was true! The other part of the conversation was just p&m-ing about the bonus money, or lack thereof, for non Ranger/Yammy/Brp owners. Now, I would have to look very closely at the PWT rules, to see if this verbal sharing, or any sharing for that matter, is prohibited. The fact is, the FLW allows it. Makes it equal for every team this way, whether or not you agree with the rule. If one has a problem with that, or any other rule, or even payout structure, then I guess one needs to decide whether or not to enter that series. Oh, and the information asked for at Lake Eire was not about location. They were already in the same location, and had been all day. Them and the other 5 boats on day one. The information was what color and how deep. That's it. But it could be about just about anything, I guess. Location, presentaion, bait, temperature, clarity, weather. If it's allowed, take advantage. If you don't, don't complain. Edited by Shep 6/15/2005 12:57 PM | ||
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| jerry |
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Member Posts: 2567 Location: Manitowoc, WI | Shep, I know for a fact that a protest was indeed filed and then withdrawn as the parties involved were told to save their money. I got this straight from the individual's involved, not by word of mouth passed from another. And yes, the PWT does prohibit the passing of information in their rules, not to mention ANY communication regarding location or presentation methods. And yes, I do know what was said by the participants in the FLW Erie event. I just added it as a note to my post so others would read it and understand that it is approved on the FLW Tour. And if you are viewing my comments as complaints, then you need to take a closer look. Nowhere am I complaining about what took place, just commenting that it is declared legal by the FLW Tour. Edited by jerry 6/15/2005 1:56 PM | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | The problem is during tourney hours, as allowed on the FLW Tour. Jerry, your quote. Looks like you disagree with the rule. Maybe complaining was a bit strong. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate here. I still stand by my statement that communication, even of the nonverbal kind goes on by most teams. No offense intended. But do you think that is as bad as the tailpiping that went on at that event? 7 boats the first day, more than half the field the third, which was really the next because of the call back on day 2? One day to prefish due to weather, and none of those 73+ boats were anywhere near that area. Let's talk ethics! Edited by Shep 6/15/2005 2:27 PM | ||
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| walleyechaser |
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Member Posts: 84 Location: townsend,wi | Man i remember a few years ago when i fished the mwc at bay de noc.we were fishing big bay the first day and did quite well,i think around 8th place.there were about 15 boats fishing the area and on day 2 we had company about 125 boats on our spot.it was a mess if i would had a gun there would of been some boats on the bottom.so i think tailpiping is the biggest issue. | ||
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| Jim Ordway |
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Member Posts: 538 | Jerry, Thanks for the backround. I had no idea that any tourney allowed that kind of information exchanges. Sounds like the FLW is the Wild Wild West of operations! Take care, Jim O | ||
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| Johnnie Candle |
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 Member Posts: 120 Location: Devils Lake, ND | Tournament Ethics is a tough topic for me to discuss, but I will try. The past few years, this has become a much larger issue. There is more on the line now than ever. We all know what money can do to some folks as well. Many have taken the win at all cost attitude, and obviously this is wrong. The problem with Ethics, wether it is fishing or your day job, is that it is not defined. When we stop at a stop sign, that can be measured, you either stop or you don't, same with speeding, tax evasion, etc. Ethics is not black and white, so it is impossible to enforce. Some see ethics as if the rules doesn't say I can't then I will. Case in point are many of the stories I have heard about exchanging information, protecting spots, etc. Other cases include spot jumping, or tailpiping. again, no true definition of what this is. Jerry Ruffalo, this is just an example, so don't hate me. Totaly made up. Jerry fishes spot X on day one. Johnnie fishes spot Y. Jerry weighs respectable limit is in top 3. Johnnie weighs modest limit is in 23, still two days to go. On day two, Johnnie shows up at noon at Spot X. Did he tailpipe? With the information here, no ne can make an accurate judgement. You know what? This is the info anyone has when they make the judgement and tell everyone on Walleye First who is tailpiping who. No one knows if Johnnie pre-fished there or not. It may have been a spot he was saving for later in the event. It may have been a spot he expected to fish on day 1, but spot Y gave up enough fish he didn't have to. Why is it that we now have to fish all of our spots on day 1 or we are tailpipers on days 2 and 3. It is my personal feeling that we all need to just go fishing. If you want to be the spot police, get a job as a tournament director and have at it. Otherwise, keep your lips zipped and go fishing. I fully expect to see people adjust to the fish. With large teams working together, there is seldom a time that everyone doesn't know about most of the good spots by the tourney. Fishermen will find the fish. If someone does move in on me that doesn't belong, they should never beat me on my spot. If they do, it may be time for me to give it up as we mentioned in an earlier post. It is very hard to move to a spot you have never seen and fish it very well right off the bat. We have to be allowed to fish any spot on the lake at any time. The person doing the fishing knows if they belong there or not. if they can sleep at night after the deciscions they made, then who am I to say they did wrong? What goes around comes around, and in due time they will get what they deserve. In the mean time, I am going fishing and will continue to say hi and be cordial to anyone that fishes beside me. You are all welcome to fish beside me anytime you would like. There are plenty of walleye in this world for all of us. Sorry if I offended anyone, just my take on a bad situation that I think we are all making worse by dwelling on it. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Great Post John, I believe tailpiping would be reduced if the sharing of info would be limited to none, 24 hours before a tournament. This gives everyone a chance to find their own fish on day one. Sometimes rules need to be made in the extreme to get thru the rule benders! This is an issue the Bass world is dealing with I believe. Although difficult to enforce, just the thought of being accused of being a cheater isn't worth the chance. The "true sportsman" WOULD prevail. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | I need to make this short because I'm off to the water again........ Tailpiping can be eliminated by having everyone turn in gps coordinates prior to tourney. Or checking their units for gps numbers if a complaint is filed. All of your coordinates are dated and it is very esay to see if you have been there before.....period. Johnnie, I know this rules out sesarching for fish during a tournament.But IMHO it's better than the alternative..... | ||
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| Captdoug |
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| Tailpiping, spot jumping, BITE CHASERS, they have been around forever and it can not be stopped or controlled through regulations, this is about being ethical, either you are or you aren't. Now as far as talking on the water goes or using a cell phone or text messaging that is another issue. I don't think we need cell phones or text messaging devices on the water, start there. The VHF radio does the job 99% of the time and it can be monitored. If you have guys talking in navajo, find out who they are and kick them out. There should be NO EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION ON THE WATER DURING TOURNAMENT HOUR, PERIOD. Yes, groups have there special hand signals and that is hard to controll. But, standing on the front deck doing sign langauge is another story. Money does crazy things to people, so does ego. Remove all communications devices from the boat that can't be monitored and state it simply, THERE IS NO EXCHAGING OF FISHING INFORMATION DURING TOURNAMENT HOURS. Oh yeah, and if you break the rules you will be banned from tournaments for the rest of your lives. Just my opinion, Doug | |||
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| Gordy |
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Member Posts: 279 Location: Rockford MN | Jonnie I don't care who you are you are going to you're BEST spots on day 1 !!!!!! Way to many people have come up these excusses after being confronted! Most all the events are trolling bites now, so why would you not fish the best spot on day 1???? Because you did'nt know it was giving up the best fish! Easy to just follow and hope no one says anything! I'm not talking about you in general here just thats the way guys are now! The only time I could see this is if you are bobber fishing and the wind switches from the south to the north and you need to switch ends! Its easy to figure out whats going on out there, a 30lb basket comes across the scales and everyones asking where the guy was! WHO cares you need to catch YOUR own fish and figure them out! Day 1, 4 guys on a spot all 4 have limits of good fish day 2 84 boats on the spot! Tailpiping!!!!! EVERYONE knows it and most have zero problem doing it! SAD | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | Remember the "Cream Rises to the Top" references in other threads? This is another issue where that will hold true. If an angler is regularly unethical that reputation will very quickly stick, and effect his/her ability to get ANYWHERE in this business. Winning isn't everything: its an important component unless one is shooting for only ONE win. HOW one acquires the win is pretty quickly public information. I sure wouldn't want to be the Pro known only as the guy who won by unethical methods. This business is no different than others; it draws people from all walks of like. Expect that there will be some who are not as careful to toe the line as others, that's the human race. We have a fellow over at MuskieFIRST who says it right: "Just fish it." I agree with Mr. Candle, he has it right, IMHO. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Johnnie, You are partially correct. Here's my scenario of obvious tailpiping, and it is flat out wrong and unethical. Jerry and his team show up for an event to prefish on Friday. Due to strong winds, cold temps and rain/sleet/snow, it is unsafe to get on this huge lake to prefish until Monday afternoon. Finally, Jerry and his team, and the rest of the field get out to get less than two days of prefishing in. Jerry finds some good looking water, works it on Tuesday, and there is only one or two other boats anywhere nere this area either day. Nobody, absolutley nobody has prefished it. We are not talking structure here, but a certain clarity to the water muddied up by the storm. Wednesday, Jerry and team fishes this area, and there are a total of 7 boats there. Jerry and his team do well on day one. Day two they are called in early. Day three, Jerry and his team get to their spot, and 80 boats show up! 73+ of these guys never prefished it! Jerry and his team still do well, and make the cut. Jerry wins the tourney despite the fact that 2nd place Johnnie decides to follow directly in his wake, and then switching over from cranks to harnesses, when he sees Jerry catch a 9 lber! All hypothetical, of course. The problem with the statement that those who know if they belong on a spot or not, is that these guys CAN sleep at night! And sometimes, what goes around, doesn't come around. Or at least it doesn't in this life! Edited by Shep 6/16/2005 10:05 AM | ||
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| Johnnie Candle |
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Member Posts: 120 Location: Devils Lake, ND | Gordy, I agree 100%, I fish my best spots on day one. I make a list of where I want to fish day one if I need to move around. Just because a spot was my best doesn't meanit will hold up for three days. They very rarely do. My best spot and someone elses best spot do not match. Perhaps #1 for me is #3 for some other competitor. Does taht mean he can't fish my spots? All I am saying is that I should not have to fish all of my spots everyday of the tournament to get to fish them on day two or three without being considered unethical. I do not like the idea of turning in waypoints, although I agree it would stop some of the BS. Too many times on day three I have pulled into a windy shoreline with no boats on it or an area of clean water that I never pre-fished and caught limits of fish that got me good checks. LAke Oahe for example has miles of shoreline, all of wich can hold fish at any time. It is impossible to fish all of it in practice. If we turn in waypoints, would this mean if I am catcing fish while trolling form point x to point y in practice, then on day one my fish move 1/2 mile east of point y that I can nop longer fish for them because I didn't pre-fish there? I know this all sounds rediculous, and that is my point. If you fish NE of Kellys island move 1 mile and you do not have waypoints turned in, can you troll an extra mile to find them? It all sounds stupid because it is. I hold firm in my earlier conclusion. Let's just go fishing and let the powers that be worry about the BS. Just concentrate on catching your fish. The problems will ake care of themselves. If you feel someone takes advantage of using information he shouldn't have, them make sure he never gets the info. Once someone has gottne the reputation as a tailpiper, if the rest of the fishermen cut him out of the loop and I mean totaly, tey will figure it out real quick. Could you imagine spending an entire pre-fish and tournament with no contact from anyone. I mean no Hi, how are ya's or nice to see you's. Nothing. They would get the point pretty fast. Rules will not prevent this, ever. We as ethical fishermen need to find a way we can each deal with it and go on. Poor ethics is everywhere in every profession. We either learn to handle it or we find other things to do with our time. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Johnnie, You make some very great points regarding reputation, and such. Perhaps the NPAA should have some sort of ethics doctrine or guidelines. Let them be the standard bearer, and help promote ethical competition. I would think an advisory/review board could be set up, and membership be reviewed on any issues brought forth? Edited by Shep 6/16/2005 10:20 AM | ||
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| Johnnie Candle |
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Member Posts: 120 Location: Devils Lake, ND | Shep, I do have a problem with following in a wake. That is bad and unexcusable. However, 2nd place Johnnie may have had a grat area day one and did well. The day 2 storm wrecked his area with muddy water. He knows that he must find clean water so he begins his search. Finally he finds the clean water and there are boats there. from a distance it is impossible to tell who they are, so he starts trolling the clean water. When he approaches the others, having caught 3 fish so far, he sees it is Jerry. Johnnie immediately turns around to give Jerry his space and hope like heck that Jerry is not over there thinking Johnnie followed him to his spot. Jerry most likely feels this way, as most of us would, but being a true professional, Jerry just keeps fishing and wins the event. This is where the problem lies. We are competitve anglers, much like competitors in other sports. This is a stretch, but football teams do not turn in a play list and are forced to use those plays wether they work or not. If the off tackle doesn't work they try the end around. If the off tackle works three times and the defense adjusts, they are not forced to continue with the off tackle. Fish move, conditions change, we must be allowed to adjust to this. Turning in waypoints do not allow for these adjustments. Here is a great example. Bull Shoals this year I had a great first day and was in 10th place. I caught all of my fish in the first hour of day one and fished all of my other spots. The fish moved. I was fishing deep bluffs. It became obvous by the end of the day the fish had moved shalow and to the flats adjacent my bluffs. I tired my deep spots in the morning of day two, NADA! So at noon I began looking for shallow fish near my deep spots. I spent the rest of the day loking for flats with no boats so I did not get tagged a tailpiper. Day three was very frustrating as for 10 hours I drove to spots, fished for 10 minutes, would see another boat coming, recognize them as a leader, and pull lines to move. All because my reputation is important. I do not feel I should have had to move. I was fishing the same fish I had been, but not the same spots. So to me the question is do we fish for fish, or spots? I will continue to say that we fish for fish. If a strom comes up at Lake Erie and all the catchable fish end up in the clean water NE of Kelly's Island, you better be ready to fish in a pack. It is going to happen and I do not think that is spot jumping. | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | But you were fishing close enough to your spots, that it is reasonable to project that you are fishing your fish. And no, when you are on a spot, and see the leader coming, you did not HAVE to give up that spot. You did, as a courtesy to him, I'm sure it was appreciated, and I'm also sure it will be remembered. Class act, and you'll likely be rewarded for that in the future. Kinda like the lapped driver not racing the leaders too hard, or getting in the way, toward the end of the race. The problem with my scenario is the water was wrecked prior to prefishing, and there was basically less than 1 1/2 day of prefishing. The cleaner water was found by Jerry, and Johnnie found none in prefishing, or on day 1 after searching. It didn't get wrecked during the tourney. It just didn't get any better anywhere else. Edited by Shep 6/16/2005 10:34 AM | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Look at it another way. The leader is on fish and the third day his fish die. he is now in a pickle. Stay on the no fish spot that has been producing, which is now void of fish or go looking. Well, he goes looking and Finds a bay with one boat and its johnnie. He is in 50th so it wont matter if I fish here with him, however, it does. He shares fish with johnnie and johnnie misses a check by 1/2 pound and the leader dropps to 5th but saved face on johnnies fish. So, tell me, who was the tailpiper now? | ||
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