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Location: Rhinelander | With all the discussion about the WWR and different circuits, I thought I'd toss this one out there. We all know the difference between a Promotional person and a Professional, so let's stick to the latter.
Last year, the PWT defined anyone who fished 3 events; one full division, a 'touring' Pro. The FLW did the same for any angler fishing the full field of events. This year, the PWT has changed the format some, so the bar has been raised to 4 events. Of course, there are those who will fish a couple events this year in the regionals and FLW, but they are considered as anglers trying out the Pro feel of things, new blood, and returning Pros who simply can't fish the entire circuit. they will not be ranked, but have a definite effect on those who might be.
The WWR only ranks anglers who are considered touring Pros by the industry who have performed over a consecutive period of years/months. There have been those who'd like to see it even more restricted, and redefine the definition of the term to fit their interests or concepts. So far it seems the industry has done the job defining that term, and it's protocol for sports ranking sysytems that the Walleye and Bass Pros shouldn't have any hand in that process any more than the Tennis or Golf Pros do. That is especially true of the top 10% of the Pros out there, it's to their interest to STAY in the top 10% and restrict access to that level as much as is possible. Sports rankings are not there for the manipulation of the Pros or the Schools, Teams or owners the indistries say, they are there for the fans. I tend to agree, and am sometimes at odds philosophically with some of the general concepts put forth by professional associations and promoters as a result.
This goes to the age old argument that without the players, there is no sport. That's true, but tremendously tightly dialed in in a somewhat tenuous and self focused reality. Without the PLATFORM provided by the owners and the Leagues, the promoters and the industry, those players would be lawyers, accountants, and restaraunt owners, competing locally for kicks on the weekends. One probematic reality with the sport of competitive fishing ( other than the fact it's still in it's infancy compared to other venues) is that it parallels other sports where it's individual talent against individual talent, much like tennis or golf. One must take care to play only tournaments that reflect the best possible results if Ranking and making the 'grade' is a concern, because it is POSSIBLE for a Ranked Golf or Tennis Pro to WIN a tournament, and lose serious ground because of that events value in the system. One must do one's very best to play events that will get one into desired national events and championships.
So who decides who is and who is NOT a touring Pro? And why is the reality of today such a bad model, if it's worked over and over and over again for other 'individual' sports? Unless we are seeking a Walleye or Bass 'Olympics', I fail to see a viable alternative. Do you, and if so, what might it be? |
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| Interesting read.
One thing though. Not sure how a professional golfer can win an event and go backwards in the rating system. Since the top 125 on the money list get their tour card for the next year and most, even single event winners, make enough to get there. So I'm not sure what you were meaning. Each winner is also exempt for the next weeks event. That means they don't have to qualify, a big benefit.
Also in golf any amateur can pay the fee and attempt to qualify for most events, that is except the championships. So I could go to Dretska, pay the money and try to make the Greater Milwaukee Open. Tiger Woods was given a sponsors exemption to play in his first Milwaukee Open, and entered as an amateur. It was only when he cashed his first check, which may have included appearance money, that he was considered a professional golfer.
So, cash a check, get your pro card. Make it so you have to have a pro card to fish the bigger events. So, you have to have cashed a check, (larger then your entrance fee) in a tournament in the last X amount of years to get in. Would make cashing a check in even a small "recognized" event very important important.
Again, interesting point of view regarding the top 10%.
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Member
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Steve.
I'll take your post literally.
A Walleye Pro to me is a person who sacrifices his time, his money and (often) his/her family obligations for both the love and competiton of the sport. He competes and pits his knowledge ans aquired skills with like minded others, for both present and continued cash rewards in all facits of his chosen sport. But his success is not only measured by winning, but by the respect of both his fans and his peres, and is as much about the professionalism he achives and what history remembers and says about him, while excelling in the particular sport he loves.
Edited by walleye express 3/10/2006 8:20 AM
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| A pro angler is a person that fishes a tournament circuit that has a true national championship. You must EARN the right through the given tour to be in that championship.
Today it seems a select few guys are trying to take it upon themselfs to set industry standards, these people are strickly out to protect themselfs! They feel that up and coming guys should have to follow what they set forth. These same indivduals were the ones that made this whole thing of sponsorships what it has become today. Somehow fishing a tour has become a who do you know thing. It used to be how good you are! People are always trying to ruin a good thing with there own beliefs on how things should be run. Some little "club" is out to change the world, the only thing they want is to control who, what, where, when and why! This makes me sick that people are so willing to follow, and they can't even see what the agenda is.
Pro anglers are people who fish Pro Tournaments, they fish for the love, competition, the right to be called one of the best!
PLEASE don't ruin a good thing with all the seperation of anglers, make it OPEN to all and grow the sport! |
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| Very strtictly speaking, I agree with Capt Dan's appraisal. I would speculate that in the strict sense of the term "professional' would have to include those old salts that do this for a majority of their income/time committment and that would include Capt Dan, Larry Smith and their ilk.
Regarding the developing, current system, the walleye world is still seeking its place in the matrix. The BASS model seems to work well and it appears that through its fits and starts, the walleye tournement scene is trying to emulate the BASS model.
PWT, FlW, et all, will work through this and the angler will end up helping determine the format via his/her participation.
With all the smaller tournements available, I thing the system is developing quite well. It may cause some consternation with some who feel a glass ceiling at the larger formats, but I don't have a dog in that fight.
Take care,
Jim O |
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| About the only definition of a Pro fisherman that seems to have stood the test of time is a completely nonemotional, nonjudgemental one. A pro angler is one who either is compensated for his service,(for example guides and and those fortunate enough to be paid by sponsors to fish ), and any one who pays an entry fee for an event that actually pays something of value to part of the field.
Now if the question is : define Full-time Pro Fisherman.... I would have to say it was anyone who actually makes the majority,(85%), of their living from guiding fisherman , fishing tourneys , seminars, endorsements, a slick one "Consulting", paid for fishing a TV show, contributing to a fishing magazine out of their own fishing trips, and compensate product testers.
Fortunately for those who also are involved in Bass fishing the number of actual full-time pros is larger fo some previously discussed obvious reasons...
The huge majority of what lots of folks call "Real" Pro fisherman especially in the walleye ranks are pay to play fisherman that pay from and earn the majority of their income in another usually totally unassociated field.
I can sum it up with my very first encounter with a " completely sponsored pro fisherman".. We were both fishing a tourney and decided to team up and fish together a little in prefishing.. I was quite impressed with his rig ,his tackle, and frankly his fishing skill. "yup he said my sponsors take care of all of this and my entries". Okay now I'm really excited..."how the heck do you pull that off being relatively new to tourneys and without any substantial record". I just called, sent letters, or asked personally. TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT HERE... #1 HE PAYED FULL PRICE FOR THE BOAT WHAT HE CALLED SPONSORSHIP WAS THE BOAT SHOP DOING ROUTINE MAINTENANCE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN THE WARRANTY. #2 HIS TACKLE WAS ALL FROM SMALL PECENTAGE DISCOUNTS VIP programs. #3 HIS DAD BOUGHT THE BOAT FOR HIM AND HE WAS PAYING IT BACK EVENTUALLY#4 HIS ENTRY FEES WERE PAID BY A GRANDMOTHER AS A GIFT WHILE HE WORKED A FULL-TIME JOB OUTSIDE THE FISHING INDUSTRY.
ONE OTHER CATERGOREY IS THE PRO WHO HAS A BENAFACTOR WHO USUALLY IS INVOLVED IN ALMOST ALL OF THE FISHERMANS ACTIVITIES,(PREFISHING, PUBLIC PRESENTATIONS, TRADE SHOWS) ... HARD NOT TO CALL MOST OF THE FISHERMAN IN THIS CATEGORY FULL-TIME PROS BECAUSE IN MANY CASES THE ONLY REASON THE PERSON WANTS TO SHARE THE EXPERIENCE IS BECAUSE THE PRO IS ONE OF THE BEST OF THE BEST WITH A PROVEN RECORD AND WINS AT THE TOP LEVELS OF COMPETITION.
SO WHAT ABOUT THE GROUP OF GUYS OR GALS THAT LIVE SIMPLY, AND FISH SMALL, MEDIUM AND REGIONAL EVENTS, AND SELL FISHING PRODUCTS AND OR GUIDE FISHING CUSTOMERS , AND AFTER THEY ADD UP THEIR EARNINGS EACH YEAR AND SUBTRACT EVERY EXPENSE STILL MAKE 80% OR SO OF THEIR LIVING AND END UP SOMEWHERE ABOVE THE POVERTY LEVEL????? I HAVE TO CALL THEM A FULL-TIME PRO FISHERMAN. |
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| Can you say "NPAA" ?
No more
Pros
Are
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| Doc, it happens all the time in golf, win an event with a weak field and your ranking drops.
On the other side of the coin, strength of field calculations also tend to perpetuate the same people at the top, since the top ranked anglers (or in this example, golfers) carry their SOF with them, thus evey time they participate in an event the SOF score will be high for that event. You have to be careful with SOF influence on tournament score for these reasons. (Maybe this is what some groups want? Great, but not very accurate or representative)
Additionally, SOF can be misleading or inaccurate in fishing tournaments that allow local one-time anglers to fish an event for a reason that Gordy brought forth earlier. Location is much more important in fishing than it is in a sport like golf or football. Example, an unranked local angler like Glenn Chenier on a tournament at Bay de Noc would probably influence the true SOF much much more than a highly ranked angler like Nick Johnson, but basing SOF solely on factors like current rank would not take this into account.
Maybe SOF scores in events like this could be better accomplished with a ranking-based component and one that assigned points to each angler based upon hometown zip-code proximity to the tournament location ??? |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | IMHO, a Pro is simply one who dedicates as much time to his sport as life, family, work and other responsibilities allows them. Wether they pay for their expenses or are sponsored. Wether they are a big name or just starting out. However, this same person will, promote his/her sport in a professional manner, teach someone something they know well, encourage others in their sport to do the same, and most of all, not let their sport take anything away from what means the most to them like family and friends. Here's hoping all of us can be happy with what we do and call ourselves PRO's. Just my two cents! |
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Location: Rockford MN | If you asked fishermen you would get 50 different answers from 100 guys. If you ask the tours they will tell you it's the people who fish with them. If you ask a sponsor.... well most don't care, as long as you sell product and show that you are. If you ask the NPAA they will say it's just there top 100. So who is right?
The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me. There is NO profit sharing or stock options in fishing! Some guys that fish pro tours, would NEVER consider quiting a very good paying job or selling the business they started years ago, all for the right to be "called" a pro fishermen! Some guys have WAY to much into companies they would NEVER consider giving it all up for a name.
You can go round and round about who is what. I think it's up to each guy to make the most of what they have. NO sponsor is beating down doors giving away the farm for walleye anglers. You can go all over the internet and find out how to approach compaines. You can also get the contacts by simply calling the companies. In the end it's up to each angler to show the company what you can do for them.
All this junk about who is a "pro" who is ranked higher and what tour does the most for the sport is getting old! The same guys are always the ones trying to stir the pot. The same group are the ones that are trying thier hardest to make it as hard as possible for guys to get past all the politics and just fish. At the end of each event there will be a winner and a guy who ends up last. Nothing will ever change with that format. The best are the ones that find thier way towards the top a lot of the time. They have made the most of how the system works, they pair up or have have networks of locals or do what ever to make sure they are informed on any body of water. The guys who make it a point to work soley in this industry and fish "pro" tours just earn their income differently than the guy sitting at his desk for for a corp... No one or group has the right to tell that guy that he's not a "pro" because he has choosen to hold a 9-5 job. Many guys have kids, many guys are not willing to invest the road hours to work for sponsors on weekends. Heck they just worked all week and earned a good living, now they have to be away from there families for the weekend?
I personaly spend about 6-8 weeks a year away from the ones I love. It's very hard on the wife, she works a very stressful jobs and has to cover "all" the home duties while I'm away. If someone tells me I can't be a "pro" fishermen unless I'm making most of my living by doing so, I say to h*** with them! You have to do whats right by your family 1st and fish fish second. These pipe dreams that get filled into peoples heads has cost many a good guy more than just some money, they have lost everything (wife&kids).
When you look in the mirror at the end of an event, and you gave it your all. You just played a game against others just like you. Win or lose you were fishing against other pro's, NO matter what someone or group was trying to "name" you! |
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Location: Darboy USA | Gordy,
EXCELLENT post! I couldn't have said it better myself. I know of one very good walleye fisherman that I sure would call a pro, but he continues to work his job, spend time with family, take others out fishing, etc. He is a PRO in every sense of the word, but doesn't get caught up in what he should be called, he just likes to fish! Isn't that the bottom line???
I'm all for tournament fishing and tournament fishermen, but I agree, sometimes it's gets old hearing somebody telling everyone, I AM A PRO FISHERMAN, blah, blah, blah....... |
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| Gordie---"The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me" glad to hear someone elses opinion is a joke to you. ( no offense taken just a "little" surprising). The to H*** with anyone who expresses the opinion that I did you posted farther down in your post., I do take offense with. Not because it's me but because that language is totally uncalled for. I have a very simple question, does a professional plumber, carpeter, engineer, banker, lawyer work another job so they can be called a professional in the fields above. No. I have never been shy about it.... I fish to make money...guiding , tourneys, Commercial fishing(catfish & rough fish again this year). I am not now or never expect to be a purest. Doing it for the Sport. Do I still almost whoop at every fish into the boat... yup I enjoy catching fish.
But I do not meet my description For professional tourney angler(Walleye Pro").... no where near the majority of my income comes from Fishing. I repair computers,(1500+ last year), and farm Meat and vegetables , and sell fishing products at shows and online for the majority of my income. In years past I did make near 90% but not any more.
In defense of all the opinions including Gordy's, if you look under Websters definition of a professional you will find as many of the assorted definitions,(note the part of speech they are noun or adjective), have to do with the manner that someone does something as much or More than whether it is his or her main lively hood... but I gave my opinion right or wrong and respect others.
Edited by Mountain Man 3/8/2006 5:38 PM
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| it's funny! you can ask the top walleye pro's like Gary parson and Kieth k,Gary gray, and the rest of the really top pro's that got there start on the mwc and the pwt,and i bet none of them would tell you they are pro's.we just all know they are. |
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| Mountain Man - 3/8/2006 5:27 PM
Gordie---"The thoughts that you have to make so much of your income is a joke if you ask me" glad to hear someone elses opinion is a joke to you. ( no offense taken just a "little" surprising). The to H*** with anyone who expresses the opinion that I did you posted farther down in your post., I do take offense with. Not because it's me but because that language is totally uncalled for. I have a very simple question, does a professional plumber, carpeter, engineer, banker, lawyer work another job so they can be called a professional in the fields above. No. I have never been shy about it.... I fish to make money...guiding , tourneys, Commercial fishing(catfish & rough fish again this year). I am not now or never expect to be a purest. Doing it for the Sport. Do I still almost whoop at every fish into the boat... yup I enjoy catching fish.
But I do not meet my description For professional tourney angler(Walleye Pro").... no where near the majority of my income comes from Fishing. I repair computers,(1500+ last year), and farm Meat and vegetables , and sell fishing products at shows and online for the majority of my income. In years past I did make near 90% but not any more.
In defense of all the opinions including Gordy's, if you look under Websters definition of a professional you will find as many of the assorted definitions,(note the part of speech they are noun or adjective), have to do with the manner that someone does something as much or More than whether it is his or her main lively hood... but I gave my opinion right or wrong and respect others.
Read my post as you may! You can bring up the pro thing about other fields, simple fact that every day someone NEDDS one of these people to fix something! NEVER has or does this industry need pro tournament fishermen to SELL product! Long before we had walleye events there were millions of rods, reels, tackle sold!
You can read me that NPAA "OLD" act all you want, they may have got you brainwashed but that dog won't hunt here anymore! NO one NEEDS pro fishing except the guys that do it! Sure some nice things have have come about in products that relate to fishing tournaments, but did the industry really need that to make it happen? NO!
INTEREST in the sport is what draws monet to it! I heard all that mumbo jumbo they were pushing, but to truely grow a sport you NEVER restrict it. You NEVER divide anglers because YOU want a title over the next guy. YOU build the sport by opening your arms and bring people in. I'm sad that this club is trying to take things upon themselfs for there select few. Just read there board with an open mind, and tell me that it's NOT only about them! Then they have the balls to come on here and ask questions of a ranking system? You got to be kidding me! They only want there top 100 ranked, that excludes EVERYONE that is not a memeber. Even if you are one of the true top tour anglers, unless you play there little game they want you out!
You tell me what a pro is? A pro fishermen is NOT a Doctor or Lawyer, or school teacher!!! |
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| Gordie I read it the way you posted it then saved it and printed it, and I think I will frame it . It is exactly the reason I dissappeared from these board for almost 2 years. Thanks for reminding me lol |
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| Mountainman, I know gordy and he puts exclamation points at the end of every sentence but don't take that as yelling, he just is expressing his opinion strongly, as you did. I didn't read it as a personal attack, just his opinion, for what it's worth. Enjoy many of your posts, esp the one about your kid fishing with you. Have a good one. |
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| Please don't feel that I'm trying to single you out here! I'm just speaking my mind. I'm sick of all the people trying so hard to make tournament anglers above regular anglers, why do you think people have such mast opinions about tounaments? It's because this is how they see us, we have given them no choice. Then "we" fight amongst ourselfs as to who is what. If they want a union they should just start one and be done with it! If you let a web-site board just because you have a different opinion than someone else, then these boards are not for you. If you want to fight the good fight (your opinion) then you have every right to stand up and be heard. I'm not knocking you, I'm knocking the system and what some people are trying to make of it. |
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| Gordy,
I was reading this thread and then I got your post and it realy interested me and if I am reading right got me a little mad. are you saying that certain people want walleye first work there walleye rankings to leave out those anglers that aren't a member of the npaa? |
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| Basiclly yes. They want there own system or want walleyefirst to give them sort of speical treatment to the members of there group. They want to seperate all tour anglers into groups (or aleast thats the way I'm reading it) Group "A" is the list of there top 100 everyone else is in group "B" the only catch is now they want strength of field? Well thats never going to work when the fields are not open to all. I understand what they want, they want the "top dogs" to be the only ones ranked. Guys don't seem to have much problem using the ranking system for there own personal gain now, so what good would a new system that they install do? Oh thats right it would be a exclusive to there club.
Who makes up there mind what a stong field is? Isn't a strong field, a field that is open to any angler? If they open that can of worms, the only anglers in the top 25 rankings will be in the PWT SP field, because they would control it all. I have all the respect in the world for the guys that made the Super Pro, they all earned the spots. However take the top guys from the other tours- the Top dogs on the FLW and the PWT and just because they don't fish the SP they will not get the rankings they might deserve. Anyone who thinks a Nick Johnson (the highest ranked FLW only guy) does not deserve to be ranked where he is based on what he has done (on the water) should have there head examined. Yet it seems that is what they want? |
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New User
Posts: 2
| Sworral, I did the blog thing. First time, but I had a lot of thoughts on the subject.
Enjoy.
Lena |
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| This time I didn't take it personal... just offended by the language and the way things got over the top and frankly I'm sick of that in forums... Don't want to get into yet another conspiracy theory here, because first of all I have been so far from the top where this is or isn't going on that anything I would say would be only guessing. I'm not now or have I ever been a member of NPAA , (don't know why except that I'm to cheap to pay the money),but the guys I have associated with that were didn't seem any different to me.
But back to Gordys issue on one being better than this or that. On this site and another when the a discussion came up some time back which was obviously us vs them regarding who is better,( and trust me I never saw the us vesus them coming in this one),I answered that with a true story... heres the short version. Just got back from 2nd at national championship in a AAA walleye series and went to enjoy a day of fishing on the fishing barge in Genoa..a sponsor, long time freinds, and place where lots of buddys fish. Close freind to my surprise came up to me and Not kidding said," Now that you won that boat and finished second I suppose you think your better than us". After getting over the amazement I said " John Doe how many fisherman are on the barge to day. " 80 0r 90". I said, "lets say there are 88", so of that eighty eight there are Eighty six that are better walleye fishermen than me... ofcourse he fell right into the trap and ask who's 88th and realized what I was saying as soon as the words had left his mouth.
I still remmeber when after training all year and getting higher in the ranks of cross country in high school getting demolished in gym class in a long distance race,( gym coach was kind of an over doer), by a classmate who simply chose not to go out for sports and other than hunting alot ,(he was a high school hunting buddy), didn't train or run much at all. I mean according to the time he ran he was ,(back then), an world class distance runner.
People do what they want at what level they want and that doesn't now or at anytime in the past or future make them better or worse than anyone else,(although they may very well be better),.. but back to what I thought this post was about... to me one's profession,(PRO or Professional), is what that person does for his or her living. Had the question been what is your opinion of on who are or is, or what group, is or are the best walleye tournament fishermen... I could of answered that question with the fishing float story... even though in my heart I would have being saying >>>That's an easy one "ME".
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| Professional? define professional? are we speaking about making a living or the way they compose their selves? Making a living is proving to be quite difficult as most will attest. Acting in a professional matter? Well that seems to be disappearing too. |
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Location: Rockford MN | Mountain Man
I agree, and thats what my post was about. The total seperation of anglers and the bickering about who is better and which tour and all the rest. I do feel that to many guys are using organizations or tours or what ever for their own personal agendas, which is seperate from the goal of being a pro fishermen.
I like some of things the NPAA does, the youth programs are fantasic. It just scares me when other things don't fit the main goals they have listed. I went back in and looked on the site as to the exact goals. Here they are and I believe they make sense, and would be good for the sport of tournament fishing.
1) To increase the Professionalism of our members
2) To grow the sport of fishing and the industry as a whole.
Both very good ideas and a true must to grow the sport to the level of say a "Bass". I'm just finding it hard to understand how the bickering over which tour is better is helping with the NPAA goals. They have the right idea's, but are these goals in the fore front or are "some" people using the open forums for a hidden agenda? I can't seem to figure any of that out. Hopefully some day soon all the tour anglers and the general fishing public will come to a understanding that this is a good thing no matter what level you are on. Hopefully this sport takes the right turn and for the betterment of all fishing. At some point when all the dust clears over who is better and which tour is better everyone that does this for a living or for the love of it, can and will be on the same page?
Both tours are needed and now even all 3 tours are good for this sport. Why we need or feel the need to prove that one is better for the sport is what worries me. It worries me when "some" people want growth and then they turn around, when another venue opens and fight about how it's not good for the sport. I don't like everything any of the tours does or stands for, I just choose one that fits me at this time.
In the end I'm all for total growth in the sport and in tournaments. I just wish some would see the whole picture and not just what good for them now. The NPAA has done some good things for the sport, I just wish some people would not use it as a platform for there personal goals over the goals of the sport and what the NPAA was founded for. I hope that makes sense to you? |
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Location: Rhinelander | Let's try to refocus this.
I was in part asking the question to see if the industry definition matches the general public's perception of what makes a Pro a Pro from a Competition based definition. The FLW and PWT are currently the only venues that have a Pro/Co angler format, the rest are Team. When the PWT was formed, the general concept was the ability to move from a Team format to a Pro format, and the FLW followed suit.
If the FLW defines any one angler as a Pro, and the PWT defines any one angler as a Pro or Super Pro, then is that the 'gold standard'? Is a Pro who fishes all three to be considered any differently than a Pro who fishes one? Is there any other definition that isn't totally personally subjective, based on 'feelings', not data, and actual performance? |
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Location: Appleton wi | and is there a difference between a "touring walleye pro" and a walleye pro? |
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