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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Good topic.
I have heard a lot of discussion on the benefits of red colors in baits and hooks. However, Cajun line claims their red line disappears when it's 8 or 10 feet under water. If this is true, baits running below that depth would be almost invisible if they are red. I am wondering who is full of bull, they obviuosly can't both be right.
Thanks,
Anthony
Anthony.
It would indeed be great if there was a consistent set of criterion for catching walleyes. A specific set of rules and techniques that applied to them consistently in all situations. Something as precise and consistent as reading an Engineers Blue prints. But that would involve knowing the exact finite parameters in a fishes world and his every reaction to them. We do indeed know some, from simple repetitive success. But most all of them are reliably hinged to seasonal habits and instincts, tied into their predictable reactions to climatic changes and just where and when to intercept them during these times. We've come a long way in knowledge and equipment to help us find and catch walleyes. But we are (IMHO) as far away from breaking their physical genetic codes as we were 30 years ago. And thank God walleyes can't and don't rationally think, or we'd never catch one. Our best teachers for fishing success will always be each other. If red works where and how you fish, use it. Capt. Dan. |
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| That's been my arguement against red all along, WE. Red is the first color to disappear when when under water. While I'm not sure if it disappears, or appears as black. Perhaps Worrall can help here.
Anyway, as it is the first color affected, I'm not sold that red hooks help. |
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Location: McFarland, WI | Maybe the fact that the red becomes less visible and therefore the hook less obvious, is the reason for their benefit. The color of the water has a major effect. There was a great article about this recently that maybe someone can reference. The basic background colors of water were red, green, and blue and they listed the contasting colors for each type of water. Red hooks have worked best for me in clear(blue) water but they should lose contrast fastest in muddy(red) water. A study in progress. |
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| Neither one is right! The color red is overrated for fishing line and hooks. This is only my opinion, but walleye either see the red line, red hook, etc. or not depending on how hungry they are. If they are feeding, you can drag a lure behind a red coffee can and they will eat it. If they are locked up they will see everything, including line, hooks, etc. and it does not matter if they are green, blue, or red. |
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| Some "old timers" swear by the use of a read bead ahead of thier hook on a wolf river rig. That's probably so they can't see it right? *insert sarcasmhere*
I believe a fish's brain is smaller than a pea...I try not to let it out-smart me.  |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | KLN Guest - 2/5/2007 1:26 PM
Neither one is right! The color red is overrated for fishing line and hooks. This is only my opinion, but walleye either see the red line, red hook, etc. or not depending on how hungry they are. If they are feeding, you can drag a lure behind a red coffee can and they will eat it. If they are locked up they will see everything, including line, hooks, etc. and it does not matter if they are green, blue, or red.
Believe it or not KLN, I agree with much of what you said. I've been out there on days when lures attached to Cat Gut line, soaked in either gas or oil, could catch just as many walleyes as the most carefuly rigged finesse rigs made. But on as many other trips, when that one certain rod, with that one certain lure (with only slight differences) catches the majority of fish. Rather all this color scheme and lure type hype is simply nonsense or man made superstitions, ya gotta go with what's working best. Because until we crack the walleye language barrier, and verbally interrogate a walleye on whats really on his mind, we're stuck with feeling our way around all the posibilities.  |
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Location: Rhinelander | Red indeed is the first color in the spectrum to be filtered out by water. Once that wavelength of light is gone, red becomes either black or gray, depending on what shade of red we are talking about. Plain old red paint over a white base will be pretty much gray in 10 in clear water at noon. What matters is contrast when considering what the fish can see. If gray or black contrasts with the blue, violet, or similar background of deep water looking sideways(which it does) or against the sky background of deep violet looking up (not so much), it's still there for the fish to see.
If the color is phosphorescent, and is charged up, red can exist very deep because the lure is providing it's own source for light.
Even more interesting, what primary colors make up orange, a very popular accent color on lures? Red and Yellow. Which was the base color, and which was added to make the orange? When red is gone, that lure could be light gray, or nearly black. |
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| You have a good point about that special rod or set-up catching all of the fish, when the bite is gone. A good example is, evey once in a while you run across a crankbait that will flat catch fish because of a special movement and I can tell you fron experience that it hurts to loose that special lure!
Here is some detail to my take on the red color thing; I've tried some things to understand what the walleye see and how that affects their craving to kill a bait. I agree with some the explanation about how the red color will change underwater.
Initially, walleye see a shape(the shape is very important) in the water, if they are feeding, they will eat it. If they are not feeding they will swim up to it and look and study it, sniff it, and hopfully kill it, even though they are not feeding. When they see your bait under these conditions, they will see the shapes of the hook and line long before the color becomes a issue. Also, I beleive that once they study the bait, the color of the lure becomes very important to get them to "kill it" and get the bite. Its a special day when you find that right combination of color and movement that gets them to bite.
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| The way I look at red hooks is - "They may not help, but it sure dosen't hurt to use them."
I have seen in the Escanaba River when drifting just a plain hook and split-shot with a crawler, the guy using a red hook will out fish the guy using a bronze one at least 2 to 1. There's no arguing with success. |
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| Colors of the spectrum and how they appear and disappear in water maybe true.....but you're all makeing on e big mistake. You're assuming a fish sees things the same way a human sees. Think outside of the box.
It's no secret something different from the other may work better...we all know GOLD hooks work on the west end of poygan. Why GOLD? |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | Jayman - 2/6/2007 12:19 PM
Colors of the spectrum and how they appear and disappear in water maybe true.....but you're all makeing on e big mistake. You're assuming a fish sees things the same way a human sees. Think outside of the box.
It's no secret something different from the other may work better...we all know GOLD hooks work on the west end of poygan. Why GOLD? ;)
Any Golden Shiners in that lake? |
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| Jayman - 2/6/2007 11:19 AM
Colors of the spectrum and how they appear and disappear in water maybe true.....but you're all makeing on e big mistake. You're assuming a fish sees things the same way a human sees. Think outside of the box.
It's no secret something different from the other may work better...we all know GOLD hooks work on the west end of poygan. Why GOLD? ;)
Cause it's shinny and girls love the "bling" |
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| The gold hooks was in reference to the joke that surrounds Rich's winning program of the MWS the other spring.
My point is I believe fish see things much more different than we humans will ever understand......our eyes don't focus better during low light periods...in fact I would think we would fall in the prey catagory. Predators seem to have very keen vision especially during periods of lowlight. Thus seeing things much more differently.
good conversation. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Actually, I'm not making that assumption at all. I'm pretty careful to stay away from anthropomorphism.
Fish have two types of receptor cells, cone and rod. Cone cells are capable of seeing color, rod cells only black, grey, and white. Using rod vision, red appears black. Pink appears grey. Yellow appears a different shade of grey. look at your lures in very subdued light, you will see some are primarily dark contrasted to a lighter background, some medium, some light.
Following a clock basis (according to some theories associated with Circadian rhythms) the fish's eye switches to rod cells as the light drops, and back to cones as light climbs. This has nothing directly to do with exact sunrise and sunset times in most fishes. Bluegills, for example, may not be fully adjusted to dark OR light for two hours after either occurs. Full rod cell extension may last only last a couple hours for gills, and that's the best time to try for them after dark if you are shooting for them to be able to see the best.
When rods are fully extended, no colors can be discerned. The walleye then can see in VERY low light, way better than we can. Contrast, or being able to pick the lure out form the background, is key. During the transition of about an hour or so, color can be seen, but not real well. Probably doesn't matter much, because the light source(the sun) in on one horizon or the other and most of the light is reflecting back of the water surface, so not much color exists anyway. An analogy about low light and color availability; think about a poorly lit parking lot, all the cars seem to be varying shades of grey.
There's lots of study material out there on fish vision and color, most pretty confusing. To summarize, according to the accepted science of the day:
Walleyes see color well, IF it's available in the part of the water column they are in and it's within the timeframe every day when the cone cells are extended. The key when looking at a bait color is primarily contrast. It's accepted that most prey species adapt to the environment using either a behavior ( like shoaling behavior in minnows) or coloration that makes it difficult for predators to pick individuals out well. It would still suck to be a minnow in Winnebago, but you get what I mean.
The color spectrum, as discussed a bit earlier, is made up of varying wavelengths of light. The longer, the faster it's bent. refracted, and absorbed as heat energy. Red's the longest, and the first to go. Violet is the shortest, and the last to go. That's why everything looks blue/violet on the undersea movies where there's no artificial light in the depths. here's a link describing the effect in the clear ocean waters. http://oceansjsu.com/105d/exped_briny/13.html
Add particulate ( like Bay of Green Bay) and light penetration goes almost no where. it's important to consider what angle the fish are attacking from. Below, and you have basically an outline, with poorly defined color even in clear and shallow water. From the side, better definition in clear water, but still poor in dirty water even at sun noon. Ask anyone who dives.
I look for contrast. I fish muskies most of the time, sight feeders extraordinare. I look to contrast my lure with the background against which I feel the fish will be comparing my lure, and feel good contrast will elicit a positive response.
Black is, for this point's sake, the absence of color, white the full spectrum presence. Black will show up against a light colored background well, white against a dark one.
Remember that some colors are combinations of the primary. Orange is red and yellow. Red goes first, yellow sometime after. Is the orange made from adding yellow to a red base, or is it yellow based adding a bit of red? One will be dark grey to black in low light, the other lighter grey.
Fishes are not able to adjust pupil size rapidly like we are, mostly because, I'd bet, there's not enough light to force that evolutionary pathway. The fish's eye is like a 35MM camera lnes, open all the time; fixed iris. Focus is poor, and when compared to ours, much slower except in the trout/salmon families, where the more elliptical (egg) shape of the lens and differing focusing capabilities allow them to see an object in the relative distance and one close up equally clearly, sort of like bifocals. Walleyes are somewhat myopic, or nearsighted, because the lens is round, not flatter like ours. So are most gamefish. That doesn't mean they can't see very well, it just means fine detail and color lines are probably blended and not what we see above the water. Some close focusing is accomplished by the retractor lentis muscle that adjusts the distance between the lens and retina. It's assumed that because vision underwater is generally poor, the fish do not need to see well at distances;because of low light and poor water clarity fish can't see far anyhow.
And so on!
Bet you can't tell you hit on one of my favorite subjects... |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | One of the articles I wrote for the MSSFA newspaper back in the early 80's, when I was still knee deep in Big Water Salmon trolling, was on this very subject. I titled it "Maybe it's what they don't see". It compared and pointed out what the basic similarities were to the Hot spoon colors all along the East and West shorelines of the Great Lakes. What many had in commmon was either being White or Silver on one side. And how Black with whatever colored stripe on the other, was a real hot spoon color. I theorized then that it wasn't the colors they were seeing but the look the spoon took on when going from visible to invisible as it flipped and flashed back and forth in the water column. Giving the spoons the same look as a pulsating school of baitfish, as they flee or change swimming directions.
How Colors Are Viewed Underwater
A large part of vision underwater is being able to distinguish different colors. Seeing colors underwater depends on the amount of light reaching the particular depth at which one is at. Another factor in seeing underwater is the condition of the waters and, more specifically, the conditions of the surface. There are several ways to make the colors easier to see. However, it is most important, to simply understand that colors change underwater and it is sometimes hard to distinguish between them.
One factor in seeing underwater is the fact that as light passes through the water it is absorbed, and much of it is lost in the process. This causes objects to lose their color as they go deeper down or further away. To add to this, the wavelengths that make up our perception of color are absorbed differently. The length the wavelength changes how fast the color is absorbed. Red has the longest wavelength, more than 700 nm. One "nm" stands for one nanometer, which is on millionth of a meter. After red comes orange which is somewhere in-between 700nm and 600nm. After orange comes yellow and so on, all the way down to the blues and purples which are the shortest at around 400.
Depending on the length of the color's wavelengths you can predict how a color will change underwater. For example, in clear water, the longest wavelength is lost first. So if you were in a pool swimming downward, the first color that would be hard to see is red.
Another factor in seeing color underwater, is the condition of the water. Light from the sun is reflected by the surface of the water. This means that the surface of the water can cause significant change in one's perception of color underwater. Different surfaces can be different amounts of bubbles, pollution, decomposing plants or plankton. Even if the change is simply more motion in the water, causing more bubbles and a different angle between the rays and the surface of the water, light would be absorbed faster, and color would be therefore lost faster. However, something such as plankton can significantly change perception of color underwater. This is because plankton absorbs violets and blues. So the presence of plankton would cause blue and violet objects to lose their colors much faster compared to red and yellow objects. Red was the first to lose its color in clear water, and the blues and violets were the last. So the condition of the water can ultimately reverse the situations, before the longer wavelengths were the first to be absorbed and with plankton the shorter wavelengths are the first. Thus, the condition of the water is a huge importance when seeing colors underwater.
Understanding how colors change at different depths and in different conditions is the first step, understanding what they change to and how to work with that is the next. In clear water, if you go down far enough a red object either appears unlighted or black. This makes since as clear water absorbs red light and eventually you can reach a depth where no red light reaches the object. The same thing could happen to a blue object in coastal waters, it could appear black. Even though red is absorbed faster in clear water and blue in coastal waters, all the colors are absorbed in water, just at different rates. So the farther you go down the less color is perceived. Plus, the further down you go different color objects all start to look the same color, the color they all look like tends to be the color that is best perceived in that water condition. For instance, if it was clear water, at a certain depth all the objects would start to look blue. So even before you reach a depth deep enough to make colors look black you can get easily confused between the different colors. One way to distinguish between different colors is their relative brightness or darkness. Several of the most visible colors are light, bright colors that cause a good brightness contrast with the dark water background. If there was a different background, such as white sand, darker colors would be easier to see. Another good way to distinguish different colors is to use two colors that cannot be mixed up in any type of water. A good example would be orange and green.
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| It's a nice piece, Steve, but you nor I see that way. Our eyes are different from fish, therefore we will see differently than fish.
You did hit on what I believe to be a key element to the color/vision question, contrast. |
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Location: Oshkosh, Wisconsin | It does not matter what walleye can see and that they can not. It only matters what they will try to eat and what they will not. Anyone who has read articles about bait selection knows what types of colors to start with in clear water, stained water, or something in between. PERSONALLY, I believe the profile of the bait makes more difference than the color. I believe that color is important, but only to act a secondary trigger and perhaps as a fine adjustment to the bait's profile.
In any case, the original post was about the cajun red line. IMHO, the reason that line may work better from time to time has way more to do with the fact that it is a very soft line and much less to do with the color of the line.
There is no instant pudding in walleye fishing. |
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| Brad, I agree! color plays a secondary role in getting a walleye to bite. It's all about the shape of your lure that gets them to move in for the kill.
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Location: McFarland, WI | We do have some idea how a walleyes vision works. They have one set of cones less than us. Through evaluation of nerve impulses in response to different wavelengths of light scientists have determined what colors trigger the greatest response. Steve is right on. Remember a walleyes reaction to color may be attractive or a flight response. Aggressive fish may see orange from a long distance and attack it. Negative fish may be spooked by it. I see this ice fishing for perch. Drop a bright jig and they disappear. Drop a black one and they investigate. The article I referenced earlier "Secrets to what walleyes see" by Dr. Rob Neumann In Fisherman April/May 2005. If you enjoy the science it is a great read. My father-in-law caught tons of big walleyes and hated the science so it is not a prerequisite to being a good fisherman. I love the science because it is what I do daily. Why is more important to me than how many. |
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| Good reading.
Steve dont forget this is the Walleye side of the site.
Actually, I'm not making that assumption at all. I'm pretty careful to stay away from anthropomorphism.
We are not highbrow muskieguys, big words will confuse us. Must be a musky thing big baits=big words |
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Location: Rhinelander | Sorry Moreeyes, it's the only big word I know...honest!
The term I use for what a bait does:
Vibration, color/contrast/profile,speed/'action' imparted by angler casting or trolling, position in the water column= signature.
Even out of exact same lures from the same builder, same color and all, one single lure can have a slightly different signature and seem to catch more fish. Ever have a lure like that? |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | sworrall - 2/7/2007 9:37 AM
Even out of exact same lures from the same builder, same color and all, one single lure can have a slightly different signature and seem to catch more fish. Ever have a lure like that?
Yup....Old Scar Face was one of those lures. He had been with me for years and had virtually every bit of surface paint scraped down to the white primer below. What made him even more hidious, was that he was a Hot-N-Tot in the Tootie Fruitie color. A Nice Northern Pike finally gave him his death blow at the start of a night time spring charter, with 2 guys from Russia. I tried everything to bring him back, but he went into the light. So I removed the hooks and gave him too one of the russian boys to take home for a suvenier.  
Edited by walleye express 2/7/2007 10:01 AM
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| Science plays a big part in understanding walleye habits. But sometimes a person can get caught up in out-thinking themselves with too much of the sience and not enough of the experience. Even if you have a good grasp of what walleye like and don't like, you'll never know enough of the little subtle things that get a bite or repel the fish.
I have a longer list of things that repel the fish compared the the list that gets them to bite on the instinct. Its a huge accomplishment to get them to bite when you know they study your lure for large amounts of time, like your fish in the videos. I have lures that consistantly produce fish that are totally beat-up with most of the paint missing. The key is what is that lure doing that triggers the bite? If they stare at it long enough, color is secondary. Trolling is a little different since walleye have a short amount of time to make a decision on a kill. Although, at times they will cruise along with the lure, taking a look. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Agreed, it's all part of the system applied on the water on any give day. Good to know, and valuable to understand, but none of it makes a Walleye hit if the Walleye doesn't FEEL like hitting. Why? I'll never know until I can get one to talk to me and explain the whole deal. |
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| Comon, Steve, FEEL? you're telling me walleyes have feelings? Don't tell PETA. hahahahaha Just jerking your chain.
"But sometimes a person can get caught up in out-thinking themselves with too much of the sience and not enough of the experience."
KLN, excellent point.....hence "A fish's brain is smaller than a pea don't let it out smart ya." I tell this to alot of people.
Fish do two things and that's it........Eat and enjoy group sex, but only once a year. It's that simple. |
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