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| Message Subject: When the chips are down, who's all USA??? | |||
sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | This post is 'life interests related' to those who frequent this website, all who are walleye anglers.As such, it's been a great discussion and should remain on the general discussion board. | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | stacker - 12/2/2008 1:37 PM Sunshine... If you answered yes to all 3 then the problem is not with the union worker, it is with the greed of the owners as well as them taking advantage of policies that are in place for world trade. OR maybe both:) (I would assume this is what Sunshine meant). Even a pro-union guy has to be able to see there are problems with the unions that need resolving...right?? | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Rich, I am not for or against unions. Just had to ask some questions when it seemed all the blame was being put on the worker for getting to much coin. I honestly thought that if owners were not making money because of wages they would change that, or more like, they would have to immediatly change that or go under, instead it seems that the owners/stock holders just wanted to make more money. Greed May as well bail out the auto companies as they did not do buisness correctly just like the greed of the banking industry did not. You live your life fiscally responsible and then a bailout comes to those..... well..... I will stop. Edited by stacker 12/2/2008 2:25 PM | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | I work in the international shipping industry and have seen more outsourcing that most. I can tell you that a good percentage of the outsourcing is for one simple reason. Major exporters often can cut costs by manufacturing goods closer to final destinations. Ocean/Air freight is terribly expensive but inland trucking can be much less expensive. You can truck goods pretty much anywhere in Asia/Europe or the middle east if it’s produced overseas. Cheaper wages are a consideration, but paying a few hundred dollars to move a full truckload versus a few thousand to move it by ocean container is a pretty attractive offer for the manufacturers. This is a big part of the reason we see so many “Big Name” companies send their lines overseas. In many cases, the American sales only make up 10-25% of their sales. They have better access to affordable logistics in Europe/Asia. Many of you will tell me that’s not a consideration, but I know for a fact it is, I deal with this every day. Many of our customers allocate 30-40% of their production budgets to logistics. That’s a pretty big percentage that you can cut drastically by relocating. I’m not saying I agree with it, but I don’t think you can say every company that ever outsource a line is doing it because of wages. | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | I hope that the big 3 can come up with a plan to make themselves profitable so that the bail out can be justified. It would be awfully foolish to give our money to a company that continually loses money. We all have our ideas as to why they lose money (and a union workers hourly wage is not anywhere near the top of my list). I am out of this conversation and I wish everyone invloved the best of luck and that includes all of us. Hopefully no friendships were lost in this discussion (and by that I mean I hope you still love me). | ||
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| guest |
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| Obviously the trend here with this forum is for a non-union country. Sunshine, on your next contract renewal, why don't you vote against it? Why don't you try and quit paying union dues and tell them that you want out. Don't accept your next raise. ANYONE of the non-union guys can sit sit here and say how the expense the union worker has... blasted our economy ! just like one of the posts said, alot of our products are, most of our products are shipped overseas. Ever seen a Pepsi in Japan , funny how 75% of Europe brushes thier teeth with Crest, etc etc. You guys are literaly trying to talk yourselves out of jobs. What happened to the american way. Good wages, new car, new clothes, good healthcare, etc. Lets try and convince all the american business owners that we should get paid on merit...let's keep talking ourselves into smaller wages, if you guys aren't happy with your jobs, then become trained or educated in another field. You can blame unions all you want, were shooting ourselves in the foot already. What about bus drivers unions, police unions, firefighter/paramedic unions, nursing unions, highway dept unions, you guys are so focused on PRODUCTION unions that your missing the boat on the real problem. Just because the BIG THREE are in trouble doesn't mean UNION WORKERS are the blame, look outside the box. So China is successful.. correct? Ever been in a hotel room in China ? 5x8 YEP Wanna live in a 40 story apartment with 4000 people FINE. Imagine our country 7 times the population? More cars to Buy...maybe???? LETS THINK ABOUT THE OTHER REAL PROBLEMS HERE. MR GAS STATION OWNER OR RESTAURANT OWNER COMES OVER HERE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY AND GETS THE LOAN That US CITIZENS ARE TURNED DOWN FOR. THEN HE EMPLOYS only HIS FAMILY. THEY DONT PAY INCOME TAX FOR SEVEN YEARS....HELLO WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY! Where is the equality there. Regardless if we are union people or not, we still pay the same taxes for the same things, don't envy your neighbor. | |||
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| CT |
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| OK sunshine and rich, don't fall off your chairs but guess what, I totally agree with you both!!!!!The only thing more like a dinosaur than the auto companies are the unions of this country. None of them have evolved, using the same ole tactics and mentalities as always, threatening people, bullying, strikes, slashing tires and all along not realizing the wolrd has changed. Pompous attitude that no one else should have to compete with US. As the rest of the world evolved and blew by they stood still. Bless them for all they did for many years to make the dream come true but it's time to wake up and become more advnced, use dues to hire law firms that specialize in labor relations instead of putting some idiot pounding hist fist on a table threatening to strike in front of management. Oh by the way thanks for someone finally breaking the boredom with a new "fighting" topic. | |||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | EF Swagee/guest....It is nice for me to know that because I don't want to be part of a union I am exploiting and have no empathy. Your frame of mind on this is exactly why I don't want to be in a union. I personally am getting tired of this country being compared to China with the inferred statement that without unions we will turn into China. If you think teacher's unions, police, city, highway unions are doing no wrong then I deplore you to pay my tax bill for me. The main thing I see that unions do today is raise the price of goods. I went to a trade show in Las Vegas and I had to pay a union worker $250 to carry two boxes I had to my booth (I was forbidden to carry it myself) and I had to pay another $350 to have a union guy plug an extension cord into an outlet for me (again I was forbidden to do it myself) Don't tell me unions have not gotten out of control. Unions are no longer about poor working conditions or a modest wage. You act like getting paid on merit is a bad thing. Most non-union people I know could out-perform union members easily and it is all because of the mind set. I am not in fear of loosing my job to someone else but it sure is ironic that unions are constantly scared of loosing their jobs to others, why is that? Unions keep shrinking because they do not operate in the manner they were first started for, I honestly seems that the only thing I hear unions doing lately is whine on how $40 an hour and close to free healthcare along with safe working conditions are not enough. If unions would be concerned about the things they were about 50-60 years ago I would support them but they are not because those issues have been resolved. | ||
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| Horshak |
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Member Posts: 921 Location: Manitowoc, WI | RNT, please refrain from using snide comments about union personnel. I am a union member and am proud of what I do. Your snide comments about union personnel are starting to offend me. If you think anyone can do the work of a skilled union person, I challenge them to come replace me. Like Sworral said, keep it unpersonal and clean for further discussion to continue. I don't know you so I will not judge you. I just want to make it clear that you are starting to offend me. Nothing personal, let's just keep our opinions to ourselves. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Horshak, There may be one line in the last post that I did not phrase well...my fault. Question though, I have been trying to relay the way I see the situation and the way I look at life but there was a line that drew your attention. Why didn't the remarks aimed at me like "empathy for fellow workers", "your loyalty to exploiting" and "contempt for unions" draw the same criticism? Are these not snide also? Am I not to be offended by the way myself and other non-union workers are being portrayed? Edited by RedNeckTech 12/2/2008 8:37 PM | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | Just a few more Horshak, here are other comments directed at me: don't have empathy DINOSAUR BRAIN Mentality anti-unionist a scab for filling a non-union quota position arrogant and ignorant this isn't the U.S. only economy for years ago you mention before the unions(thanks to consumers like you). your contempt for the industry and unions you’re content in your paradigm at every opportunity during this discussion to stick up for your fellow working class members, you’ve chosen to support our rulers instead Seeming these are all snide and directed to me and non-union workers why does this not bother you? I never scabed or even said I did, I have been sticking up for other workers, I don't have contempt for unions, I don't have a prehistoric brain, I'm not sure why you were offended I can only guess that it was one sentence. Why the double standard? Edited by RedNeckTech 12/2/2008 9:22 PM | ||
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| Horshak |
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Member Posts: 921 Location: Manitowoc, WI | No double standard from me. I am just tired of stereotyping us union people. If you are offended with the things other people said, let them know. I don't believe I made any snide comments towards you or your profession. If I did, it was unintentional and I apologize. Let's end it at that. Good luck in your future. | ||
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| RedNeckTech |
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Member Posts: 319 | No you did not make any snide remarks towards me Horshak. At time a debate can get quite spirited. | ||
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| back to issue |
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| Back to something closer to the original issue In Alabama, nonunion auto manufacturers are doing better than those located in heavily unionized states Saturday, October 04, 2008 THE ISSUE: In Alabama, nonunion auto manufacturers are doing better than those in heavily unionized states, so there's not much reason to sign up. If organized labor is looking at a shaky economy as an opportunity to elbow into Alabama's auto manufacturing industry, union bosses must be reading their own propaganda. A bad economy would be the worst time for workers at Alabama's three major auto plants - Mercedes in Vance, Honda in Lincoln and Hyundai in Montgomery - to look for the union label. These are difficult times for auto manufacturers all over the nation, and Alabama is no different. With car building a relatively new industry in the state, this is the first serious economic challenge. But even with the downturn, Alabama's manufacturing plants are doing better than many others. Mercedes has cut production to bring the number of vehicles produced more in line with decreased demand. Honda also has trimmed production, but is bringing new models to the plant in Lincoln. Hyundai has not announced any cutbacks, but if demand continues to weaken, production cuts at the assembly plant are a good bet. Yet, none of the companies has laid off any employees in Alabama. The argument by organized labor that union membership will assure Alabama auto workers job protection is undercut by the layoffs and closings at auto assembly plants elsewhere, especially in the heavily unionized Midwestern rust belt. Those union jobs are hardly secure. Unions have a better shot at organizing a plant if workers are upset about working conditions, pay or job security. There are no serious complaints about working conditions or pay at the Alabama plants. With the economy limping along, there can be no absolute job guarantees. That would be the situation whether auto manufacturers run union or nonunion shops. The real risk - to unionizing auto manufacturing plants and many other businesses in Alabama and across the nation - is the misguided and misnamed Employee Free Choice Act being pushed by Democrats in Congress. Under that bill, which has little chance of passing this year, but will surely be a top priority of the next Congress, workers would be prevented from using a secret-ballot election to certify a union. If a majority of workers sign cards saying they want a union, the union will be certified. With no secret ballot, union leaders could intimidate workers into signing the card. Just as elsewhere, peer pressure can be powerful in the workplace, too. Voters shouldn't have to explain their ballot in the presidential election, a governor's election or a union election. That's why in the United States we cherish the secret ballot. People should be allowed to vote their conscience without pressure, as the secret ballot guarantees. | |||
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| EF Swagee |
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| The reason I joined this discussion is because I am very concerned about human rights. Fellow working-class human beings in the U.S. and all around the world are being abused in the workplace. (To be clear, when I use the phrase "working-class", I mean anyone of us who is forced to sell our labor and collect a paycheck to survive). It's been argued that today's labor laws effectively replace workers' rights protections that unions provide. With sincere and all due respect to those who maintain that position, I humbly suggest that your argument is weak, at best. I know there are problems with existing unions, particularly auto unions. I won't argue that. I will argue, to my grave, that all people should enjoy the freedom of association, freedom of speech, and freedom to peaceably assemble, to secure a fair wage and non-abusive working conditions. When I bother to look outside my own little existance, I see my fellow human beings and working class members subjected to outrageous abuses, even though [weak] labor laws are in place. Unions are still very much needed in this day and age to help put a stop rights violations. To support my opinion, I offer the following articles: U.S. violates worker rights: world labor body GENEVA (Reuters) - The global labor union grouping (ITUC) accused the United States on Monday of violating a wide range of workers' rights and allowing the existence of a "huge union-busting industry". In a report sent to Geneva from its Brussels headquarters the International Trade Union Confederation said many U.S. workers were denied the right to organize into unions while child labor was not effectively tackled. "The U.S. administration, rather than leading the way on the protection of working people and on decent pay and conditions, has been intent on denying the freedom to join a union and bargain collectively to millions of workers," the ITUC said. "This hurts America's working people and has a negative impact on workers' rights in other countries as well," said the grouping's General Secretary Guy Ryder. (source: http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USL0963879920080609 ) Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops American importers have long answered criticism of conditions at their Chinese suppliers with labor rules and inspections. But many factories have just gotten better at concealing abuses (source: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm ) Despite a decade of criticism, worker abuse persists in China Nearly a decade after some of the most powerful companies in the world — often under considerable criticism and consumer pressure — began an effort to eliminate sweatshop labor conditions in Asia, worker abuse is still commonplace in many of the Chinese factories that supply Western companies, according to labor rights groups. The groups say some Chinese companies routinely shortchange their employees on wages, withhold health benefits and expose their workers to dangerous machinery and harmful chemicals, like lead, cadmium and mercury. (source: http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=9028448 ) Report alleges abuse in Asia shrimp industry WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Workers in Southeast Asia's shrimp industry suffer regular abuse and sometimes live in what amounts to virtual slavery, a human-rights organization said Wednesday. Sexual and physical abuse, debt bondage, child labor and unsafe working conditions are common in Thailand and Bangladesh's shrimp processing factories, the Solidarity Center said in a 40-page report. (source: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/23/shrimp.workers.report/i... ) Meat industry attacked for human rights abuses By Susan S. Lang, Cornell Chronicle Working conditions in the U.S. meat and poultry industry are so hazardous and the tactics that employers use to prevent workers from organizing so threatening that the industry consistently violates basic human rights. That is the conclusion of a Cornell labor law expert in a report for Human Rights Watch. "In sum, the United States is failing to meet its obligations under international human rights standards to protect the human rights of meat and poultry industry workers," writes Lance Compa, who teaches courses in U.S. labor law and international labor rights at Cornell's School of Industrial and Labor Relations, in the report. "Workers in American beef, pork and poultry slaughtering and processing plants, many of whom are immigrants, perform dangerous, physically demanding and exhausting jobs in bloody, greasy surroundings. The workers not only contend with abuses and an unprecedented volume and pace in sawing and cutting carcasses, but they also experience constant fear and risk, not only for their health and safety but for their jobs if they get hurt or attempt to organize," says Compa. (source: http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/05/2.3.05/meat_industry.html ) Ecuador: Widespread Labor Abuse on Banana Plantations Harmful Child Labor, Anti-Union Bias Plague Industry Banana workers in Ecuador are the victims of serious human rights abuses, Human Rights Watch charged in a new report released today. In its investigation, Human Rights Watch found that Ecuadorian children as young as eight work on banana plantations in hazardous conditions, while adult workers fear firing if they try to exercise their right to organize. Ecuador is the world’s largest banana exporter and the source of roughly one quarter of all bananas on the tables of U.S. and European consumers. (source: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2002/04/24/ecuador-widespread-labor-abus... ) | |||
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| Paper Guru |
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| Ef, some interesting reading for sure, thanks for sharing, although I wonder if those "human rights" violations are that big of a problem here in the US? The only article you list pertains to the meat processing industry, I am sure there have been fines and violations as well. Also the population of the workforce is primarily imigrant labor in many of those companies. Obviously they are entiled to the same human rights as others but wouldn't we all be better off addressing the "illegals" first before allowing them to band together and join or form unions? Subsequently raising the prices we pay for goods? These low skilled jobs are the ones in jeopardy and quite frankly are the ones most "Americans" don't want. Simply put the Unions have created an environment of Greed themselves, I know many in these unions that are paid exhorbanant amounts of money to sit on their arses to watch a machine run. One particular individual in my family made $112,000.00 last year driving a tow motor thanks to the unions and all the overtime he was able to accept. $75.00/hr on Holidays? Great negotiating skills for sure! Now that should put a sour taste in everyones mouth. Is that REALLY a reasonable wage for the midwest? No wonder the paper industry fell apart! Where is their "bailout"? | |||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Jayman: "Yea, yea, let’s go after teacher unions. After all, they are the root of all evil economically in Wisconsin. And they only work 6 months out of the year " 6 months? don't oversell yourself we know it's more like 3-1/2 months out of 10 scheduled  Mashall, I respectfully disagree with your shipping assesment. I appreciate your understand of logistics, but please explain China's decellerating economy and you'll understand outsourceing more. As for union argument, I think there is too much generalization within these debates. Every union is different, it's bargained as such. Some unions protect slugs that most of you don't like and other unioins are very efficient skilled labors, where if you don't cut the mustard, guess what? You don't have a job very long. I've seen and worked with both extremes. | ||
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| EF Swagee |
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Paper Guru - 12/3/2008 10:19 AM Ef, some interesting reading for sure, thanks for sharing, although I wonder if those "human rights" violations are that big of a problem here in the US? The only article you list pertains to the meat processing industry, I am sure there have been fines and violations as well. Also the population of the workforce is primarily imigrant labor in many of those companies. Obviously they are entiled to the same human rights as others but wouldn't we all be better off addressing the "illegals" first before allowing them to band together and join or form unions? Subsequently raising the prices we pay for goods? These low skilled jobs are the ones in jeopardy and quite frankly are the ones most "Americans" don't want. Simply put the Unions have created an environment of Greed themselves, I know many in these unions that are paid exhorbanant amounts of money to sit on their arses to watch a machine run. One particular individual in my family made $112,000.00 last year driving a tow motor thanks to the unions and all the overtime he was able to accept. $75.00/hr on Holidays? Great negotiating skills for sure! Now that should put a sour taste in everyones mouth. Is that REALLY a reasonable wage for the midwest? No wonder the paper industry fell apart! Where is their "bailout"? Here is more evidence of U.S. employers violating basic workers rights: Students investigate worker rights violations By Sara Bruestle , February 7, 2008 Student delegates from 14 major U.S. universities, including the UW, conducted a three-day investigation in response to complaints of worker rights violations at the New Era Cap Co. facility in Mobile, Ala., in mid-January. New Era, which has been accused of discrimination and providing unsafe and unsanitary conditions for their workers, produces baseball caps with collegiate logos for the UW and several other universities. (source: http://dailyuw.com/2008/2/7/students-investigate-worker-rights-viol... ) _______________ Why are Workers' Rights Violations So Rampant? The right to form a union and collectively bargain is a basic right, recognized by U.S. federal law since 1935 and universally recognized and protected around the world. So why is it that over 20,000 workers are fired or discriminated against each year for union activities in this country?1 One reason workers’ rights violations are so widespread is because the American labor law system offers terribly weak punishments. American Employers Face No Effective Reprisals for Violating Workers’ Rights A Slap on the Wrist: If an employer is found guilty of violating labor law, the typical remedy is ordering the employer to post a notice in the workplace promising not to break the law. No Punitive Damages: Employers that illegally fire workers for union activity are not required to pay fines or damages. The law just requires a worker’s lost earnings to be repaid, minus whatever amount the worker earned in the interim. Bargain Prices: In 2003, the average “backpay” award for a worker was $3,800.2 Human Rights Watch has assessed that employers are aware that an order to pay backpay is a “small price to pay to destroy a workers’ organizing effort by firing its leaders.”3 No Three-Strikes Law: Repeat violations can continue indefinitely because the NLRA does not provide for tougher penalties for repeat violators, in contrast to OSHA, EPA and other governmental agencies. Technicalities: The government turns a blind eye to behavior undermining the intention of the law. 75% of employers hire consultants during organizing drives.4 These “unionbusting” consultants help companies implement legal tactics to thwart workers’ rights to organize without technically breaking the law. Workers’ Rights Violations Escalate With Ineffective Laws Auto maintenance service workers employed by U-Haul in Nevada experienced first-hand the inadequacy of labor law remedies. Workers at two facilities sought to form a union with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (Machinists) to improve working conditions and wages and benefits. ( source: http://www.americanrightsatwork.org/publications/general/why-are-wo... ) ___________________________ Suit Says 18 Companies Conspired to Violate Sweatshop Workers' Civil Rights Apparel workers and human rights groups yesterday filed the biggest legal challenge ever against sweatshops on American soil, accusing Tommy Hilfiger, Sears, Roebuck & Company, Wal-Mart and other prominent companies of conspiring to place thousands of workers in involuntary servitude and otherwise mistreat them to hold down production costs. The class-action litigation asserts that 18 American retailers and apparel companies engaged in a racketeering conspiracy with factory owners in the Northern Marianas Islands, an American commonwealth near the Philippines, to deprive the 15,000 apparel workers there of basic rights. (source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9502E5DD1331F937A257...) _______________________ Workers' Rights 'Under Fire' Worldwide December 2, 2008 OneWorld US, OneWorld UK, AFL-CIO, International Trade Union Confederation, Online NewsHour, AFP WASHINGTON, Dec 2 (OneWorld.net) - Workers organizing for their rights in all parts of the world continue to face government repression and, in some countries, violent persecution and murder, states an annual report by an international alliance of trade unions. Colombia, Guinea, and the United States were among the countries singled out by the report. (source: http://us.oneworld.net/article/358850-workers-rights-repressed-colo... ) _______________ I think workers rights abuses here in the U.S. are more serious and more widespread than a lot of us realize. And, I would like this opportunity to express the idea that an injustice on one worker, whether in the U.S. or anywhere else, whether documented or un-documented, is an injustice on *all* workers. There is no good reason to tolerate any injustices against any of our fellow working-class members. When one suffers we all suffer......... Sincerely, EF Swagee | |||
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| 4 ever and ever |
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| This could go on for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | All this over one single letter....change the U to an O and we're all friends again. No one hates onions or thinks they are destroying the American workplace. .....Or are they? hmmmm.... | ||
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| Viking |
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Member Posts: 1314 Location: Menasha, WI | thumper - 12/3/2008 12:53 PM All this over one single letter....change the U to an O and we're all friends again. No one hates onions or thinks they are destroying the American workplace. .....Or are they? hmmmm.... I have to ask.... Do onions make Chuck Norris cry? | ||
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| eye Lunker |
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Member Posts: 859 Location: Appleton wi | Chuck Norris makes onions cry | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | Chinas decelerating economy can be blamed on many factors. I work with people in China on a daily basis, and I can tell you this, they are 100% dependant on the US. This effect is much more than just the Chinese items we purchase, it’s all about what the rest of the world sees Americans purchasing. Love it or hate it, the US is the golden standard to most countries in the world. The clothes we wear sell worldwide, the hot new items we purchase this Christmas will be the hot items in most countries this summer. Chinas economy is also largely based on the extra few billion people in the country. There is no greater employment competition in the world than in modern day China. Why would companies pay higher wages when they can post an ad and have hundreds of educated well qualified candidates apply for every position? Chinas economy is in rough shape, there’s no doubt about it. On that note, I will admit that some outsourcing is due to lower wages, but not the majority that most think. A lot of the lines I’ve seen moved in the last few years for logistical reasons tend to be large items like air conditioners, tractors etc… These items are very big and bulky and can cost a fortune to ship overseas. For a few hundred US dollars, you can truck an item almost anywhere in Asia, as compared to a few thousand to send a flat rack with the same air conditioner in an ocean container. You also cut out customs fees and duties. As I said in my previous post, if a company is mainly exporting large items, it makes sense for them to manufacture those items closer to their customers. I don’t like it any more than any of you do, but we can’t continue to think that our wages drive every business decision ever made. The one positive that tends to come out of this, is the import business that the logistics industry gains back from the moves and the parts exports that usually come with it. | ||
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| baldeaglefisherman |
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Member Posts: 63 | that might be the best chuck norris joke ive ever seen | ||
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| scared |
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| I know I am "hiding" behind my computer and all, but I think the horse is dead! | |||
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