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| Team wanna be - 6/8/2010 8:22 AM
Some of you are confusing me. Are you suggesting that Parsons and Kavajecz work as individuals during a tournament? Nothing could be further from the truth. They have one of the best teams out there.
Tyee,
You say that AIM gets it and has the right model. Again, are you suggesting that teams do not exist in AIM tournaments. This is not true.
Teams don't even have a chance if if the sport doesn't survive. Worry about keeping the ship afloat before paying attention to the cargo. |
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| tyee i know what you mean. when i direceted the fox river classic my goal was to keep the entries low and get maxium payout, with out taking more money out of the fisherman pocket, we would have a average of 100 to 200 boats, payout was good entries were $100 it was afforadble now since randy and karl took over many years ago 100 teams it fills up in 3 days, there is still alot of intrest in lower priced tournaments, a lot of good sticks fish it, and back then guys fished as teams during prefishing, they still do it. |
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| Since I'm a team player, we always try to take away the "non-team angler's" thunder everytime on the water and at the weigh scale! The non-team angler's don't even have a chance.  |
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| Aim has the model correct in only that there is a co angler that is not on the team and is there to keep the boater honest. All team members are competing together like in nascar where everyon e tests tracks and equipment for the rest of the team. The coangler teammate events have evolved in to a sport where everyone questions the real capabilities of an individual fisherman being able to win on his own merrit. Broken......... |
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Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | tyee - 6/8/2010 11:04 AM Aim has the model correct in only that there is a co angler that is not on the team and is there to keep the boater honest. All team members are competing together like in nascar where everyon e tests tracks and equipment for the rest of the team. The coangler teammate events have evolved in to a sport where everyone questions the real capabilities of an individual fisherman being able to win on his own merrit. Broken......... Tyee, How is this any different than FLW events? Now I am confused too.
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| Dennis, FLW has "other" issues not related to "team". I don't think they are failing because of that and I'm sure we all have our own opinions on that one.
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| I would like to add something after reading all of these great posts. stopping for a min and thinking. DO YOU GUYS REALIZE what a great bunch of minds and perspectives have been offered on this thread? What a great question to post. I think RNT's Ethics argument makes a great point! yet again human nature and the game will not permit it to be done any other way. you CANT FIX IT!. i know of teams who are out of the running to win a tournament yet in position to cash a nice check who are willing to give up there noumber 1 spot to a team member in the top ten who has a chance to win. this kind of thing is what hacks folks off. yet the guy most hacked off is a local pro that gets all bent out of shap yet he also has no problem with getting info from 3 guys at work, his buddy who runs the bait shop, 2 brothers that fished the day before and his pal who won the bar turnament the saturday before. everyone wants it to be a fair fight... unfortunatly like a real fight the guys who waits to get hit first in most cases gets his azz kicked. Not fair! No.. one thing to keep in your mind is this.. even though and ill bring up Gary and Kieth , and probst , and the second generation or who ever they work with now is this... We only tend to remember the wins. Even though these teams are are strong its not as if they cash big in all the events.. they take a beating just as often. the biggest names take plenty of beatings. a little loner in my opinion has a better chance to win. too much information is as bad as not enough. the anglers i see at the top seem to be doing what they do best( trolling ) rigging, jiggin or whatever on a day when the walleyes aare in the mood for there speacialty. how many times (and any angler can relate) have you and another boat working the same water seemingly doing the same thing have two completely diferent outcomes? one boat smokes the other 10 to 1. team or not! then the next day same two teams and same programs completly opposite results. the frustraition is folks lay out a bunch of cash and when things dont turn out there way the cry!!!!!!! teamed up pro's say its an us agains the locals game. guys on a hot bite call in the team and there goes the neiighborhood... if its not the team its the Tail Pipers... Ban Willow cats its not fair.... I dont have a big enough boat or an HD10! i only got to pre fish for 2 days! Not 5! CRY Cry CRy! a bunch of brilliant minds on here for real! yet the only problem with teams is they naturaly form. no way around it. folks want to be social. They are not on jury duty locked in there hotel and will end up teamed anyway . the thaught of a perfect walleye world with no teams sounds like heaven! but here on earth its not possible. Sharing info durring tournaments with signals or cell phones is illegal!!!!!! if you see it its time to let the directors know. time to turn them in and get these guys off the water or to change there ways. great toppic but it cant be fixed. for the guys who think they cant compete because of it. Your wrong! most of the nice checks i ever cashed we were on our own. weird how that works. But with me anyway thats how it seems to be. just not good at catching other folks fish. |
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| This is reminding me of the baiting non baiting issue. You will never please everyone. I think most people are looking at this issue two ways, RNT for example as the fan, Proeye as an example as the fisherman. I do not think teams have an advantage, yes they can cover more water then an individual, but you still need to make adjustments possibly every hour on the water to get the bites. The pros are in the boats with thier co-angler then, bite goes sour, they better figure something out, and I have fished a couple of AIM events and there is no sharing during the tournament, at night maybe, but that doesn't help you during the day.
From a spectator standpoint, I watch these tournaments and participate in them to learn new techniques to become a better fisherman. I personnally don't care if it comes from Team Tracker or Joe Blow. These guys are great fisherman, give them a Navionics map and they have a general idea of where they want to go before they even leave home. The guys in AIM and maybe others (I haven't fished in any other events besides AIM) are very ethical, alot more the your average Joe. It has been said time and time again from these guys, someone is on a spot first, it is thier spot, they do not stop and crowd each other. How many people have been fishing whether in a tournament or not, start catching fish and the boats seem to get closer.
Maybe I am off base here but no matter what you will never in any sport have an even playing field. Next we could argue that so and so has a better locator than I do. Where does it end. |
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| Johny v is right! and if you enter a walleye tournament the entire day is going to be decisions. if you hold tight it may or may not turn out. if you zig when you should have sagged ? well you better have braught the vassoline. everyone also is looking for a little luck along with useing there experiance on the water with what they do best to adapt in the limmited amount of time available. some will hold up the plywood and others will smile and bend over. others cant smile and wont and will look for reasons to blamb others! these folks will not last long fishing tournaments or have a misserable time in the long run. remember 10-20% of the field get to cash a check but only THE TOP 5 % will come home ahead for there experiance. so make sure you get something out of the experiance as odds are that there wont be much more taken home. oh and some good stories and frienships is priceless. |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | Why is NASCAR not questioned on the "ethics" level? Many of you are fans of that sport, right?
Are the drivers not alone in the car? Like a Pro Angler in the boat? So it's okay for the driver to get live info/advice from the sidelines and even new gear etc. during the race but not right for anglers to work together before the event? Tell me I'm wrong.....please.
If it's okay with the fastest growing fan base in any sport, to have the sport work as teams and NOT have the driver on his or her own before or during the race, than being against the pro angling teams is plain foolish-to say the least. I'd rather mirror NASCAR! Fights and all!! |
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| In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | RNT - 6/8/2010 2:43 PM
In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
Sounds like a plan to me! lol Let's mirror NASCAR. A salary? I could live with that! Someone else do the pre-fishing? Sweet! But of course, no one in their right mind, that I know of, would ever suggest we model competitive fishing around the likes of NASCAR's business model. (or is that the reason I've been told I'm nuts for the past 26 years?--one of the reasons I should add lol)
Edited by Steve Fellegy 6/8/2010 2:57 PM
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| johnny v and rnt you guys are great |
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| RNT - 6/8/2010 2:43 PM
In NASCAR the teams are owned and ran by an owner, the team members are paid a salary by the owner and have different titles with different meanings...it is a full time job. Car 55 does not use car 56's pit crew. The pit crews do not directly compete with the driver. Each member of the team has a distinctly different task that they perform to achieve the goal of the team winning.
If it was to mirror NASCAR then you should have a full team of fishermen that is owned. Each person would have a different task to perform to achieve the outcome of catching fish...one man goes and locates the fish then moves aside so another can try to catch the fish.
RNT, I'm gonna stop after this one. First, your statements prove you know nothing about walleye tournaments. Your statement above proves you know nothing about NASCAR, too. Your analogy is way off base.
A team owner, Hendrick has 4 teams. Gordon, Johnson, Jr. and Martin. Gordon, Johnson, Jr., and Martin are teammates. These 4 teammates also have employees working for them, individually, and as a whole. These teams all work together, and share information. One team will test at one track, another at a different track. Sometimes they all test at the same track. Whatever, they all share whatever information they have. Pre-race testing? Information gets shared between all teams. Race practice? All information gets shared. During the race? Information gets shared. And you can bet that after the race, information gets shared.
The only difference between NASCAR and the walleye tourney world, is no one person owns a team, and the team is usually only made up of actual competitors. Some teams have "members" that will help prefish and share info. They are usually not part of the prize money sharing, however. They may help share traveling expenses.
I'm not sure what Tyee means about a AIM co-angler not being part of the team keeps the pro's honest? And that is different from the PWT and the FLW how? Just an FYI, a co-angler could be a "member" of a team.
All this talk about all these individual non-affiliated anglers leaves me with one comment. Get together and form a team. There seems to be plenty of you out there to form several teams. |
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| hey shep you just stuck your foot in your mouth,, rnt does know about tournament, if you new who he is i do he was their from the beginning he knows excactly whats going as you guys would say he one of the walleye inventors lol hey rnt |
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| Do I know...yes. Have I cared enough over the last 8 years to keep up on everything with tournaments...no. Unless you are a current everyday presence within whatever tiny portion of the industry they are in, they do not care. |
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| You seem to claim you know marketing, RNT. I'm still waiting to hear your viable solution to the "broken" model. All I've heard is it's broke and it's not your way, but I haven't heard "your way".
Greed and a poor economy is what's hurting the sport currently. |
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| RNT - 6/8/2010 3:50 PM
My point was the teams are owned. Hendrick owns all four teams and funds all four teams. The goal is to win for Hendrick...that is what they get paid for. Your statements prove you know nothing about marketing a product to the public. Have you looked at the condition your sport is in lately?
I never claimed to be a marketing type. Unlike you, I don't make unsubstantiated claims, and spew them as fact.
And so what if the teams are owned by one guy, or if a couple of individuals get together to share info, expenses, winnings, etc. Oh, wait, the do that in nascar, too! Look at RPM and Rousch.
My point is you don't have a clue when it comes to the Pro Walleye tours, and the why's and how's of teams.
And I agree with Jayman. Or as your fav Slick Willy would say. "It's the economy, stupid!" Teams, sanctioned or not, have nothing to do with the state of Walleye tournaments as they exist today.
I've said for years, that sponsorship from non-endemic sources are the key to growing this sport. The angling industry just doesn't have the money to throw the big dollars to a hundred or more top level pros. We need money from outside the industry, and teams are not what's holding that back. Until AIM, the tours were there to promote the tour, and not the anglers. AIM is by the Anglers, for the Anglers. They get it, but it's going to take a few years, and a better economy, to get really rolling.
OK, now I'm done.
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| there is know way to fix it, listen to the people on this form(oh by the the way i think we broke a record on this thread) walleye fishermen and people have big ego's, im' not a walleye fishing inventor, im, not the top fisherman, im not syco therapist, (BUT I DID STAY AT A HOLIDAY IN ONCE) it's all about ego and thats that!!! |
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| shep check your pm and call now i'm still in the office
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| Jayman…Why on earth would I sit down and waste my time to pencil out a viable solution for a part of the industry I am no longer financially vested in? I have pointed out the areas where activity is hurting the sport through the years but your ears are rusted. The economy is only part of the problem and if you are banking on the turning of the financial markets to boost the sport back to the glory years you’re in for a shock. The sport is stuck in reverse and I don’t have the energy to help push it into neutral to only have it put back into reverse. I have and will continue to help individuals and recreational fishing but you will have to show me where the incentive is to help the sport of tournament fishing.
Shep…I know the why's and how's of teams but I never have agreed with them, my opinion and many disagree. Fishing is not a sport that needs teams, especially the way they have been formed. NASCAR also has fans…many, many, many, many fans…something walleye fishing does not have. Their fans can also voice their disgust with drivers and the sport without the driver attempting to discredit the fans.
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| Pretty silly everyone! This sounds like one of our favorite Television commercials from the past. Less filling!, taste great!, less filling!, taste great! Then Bob Uecker crashes the scene towards the end and chimes in!
Larry |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Wow, you leave for a few days and the playground gets pooped in...hahahahahaha.
Here is one I would like to present to all who have fished with me, against me, beat me, and those that want to beat me....
So far every person has been a independant business within a business. How do you think, what Tyee and I were speaking of, would change the face of the walleye world. It goes like this.
way long ago, companies put together teams for there product but that had little to do with actuall team work on the water.. Then came along the spider, flw, who took the industry in a direction. where you say? they came up with incentives, very large incentives for people running certain boats and motors. Then the independant businessmen decided to corralll there efforts in the events. there were large sums of cash at stake for not only wins but for placing. I am sure they were sharing money, one for all, all for one. making money. Great marketing, perhaps the best marketing idea in boating history.
flash forward today. You want more endemics, start a circuit that hired there players. They will no longer be independant, but can be fired just the same. A circuit that pays for winners and such, but also has the teams playing for a cup. a bonus from sponsors. a way to get the faces associated with names on who is pitching playing tackle or who is goalie on team plavadore. they are starting to associate team national guard players with each other over in bass fishing.
3 man teams. they are on the salary of said sponsor, say 50k a year. they work shows and promote the circuit and the product. the players are also the buyer of there boats and motors and may cut any deal they can on both, but the chest plate on the shirt is there main sponsor. the 50 k guy. They may also do "side work" at any other circuits they wish, but the side work means they are promoting the 50K guy all the time. They cannot do side work unless they can promote him. They share everything on the bite and they get fired if they talk to others.
This takes the work factor and the vacation factor out of it. the health insurance is covered or offered by the 50K guy. all boats fully wrapped. starting conttracts at 3 years so you get a shot at the deal and not quitting a job for a 6 month job then fired.
hmmmmm........
Edited by stacker 6/9/2010 10:25 AM
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| RNT, Why on earth would you sit on the internet and waste your time telling everyone they are wrong and the current model is broke?
I hear plenty of negativity, but I'm still waiting to hear your viable answer.
I'll agree things can be improved in the walleye world, but I don't believe teams are the reason why walleye fishing as a sport is "hurting". |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 10:21 AM
Wow, you leave for a few days and the playground gets pooped in...hahahahahaha.
Here is one I would like to present to all who have fished with me, against me, beat me, and those that want to beat me....
So far every person has been a independant business within a business. How do you think, what Tyee and I were speaking of, would change the face of the walleye world. It goes like this.
way long ago, companies put together teams for there product but that had little to do with actuall team work on the water.. Then came along the spider, flw, who took the industry in a direction. where you say? they came up with incentives, very large incentives for people running certain boats and motors. Then the independant businessmen decided to corralll there efforts in the events. there were large sums of cash at stake for not only wins but for placing. I am sure they were sharing money, one for all, all for one. making money. Great marketing, perhaps the best marketing idea in boating history.
flash forward today. You want more endemics, start a circuit that hired there players. They will no longer be independant, but can be fired just the same. A circuit that pays for winners and such, but also has the teams playing for a cup. a bonus from sponsors. a way to get the faces associated with names on who is pitching playing tackle or who is goalie on team plavadore. they are starting to associate team national guard players with each other over in bass fishing.
3 man teams. they are on the salary of said sponsor, say 50k a year. they work shows and promote the circuit and the product. the players are also the buyer of there boats and motors and may cut any deal they can on both, but the chest plate on the shirt is there main sponsor. the 50 k guy. They may also do "side work" at any other circuits they wish, but the side work means they are promoting the 50K guy all the time. They cannot do side work unless they can promote him. They share everything on the bite and they get fired if they talk to others.
This takes the work factor and the vacation factor out of it. the health insurance is covered or offered by the 50K guy. all boats fully wrapped. starting conttracts at 3 years so you get a shot at the deal and not quitting a job for a 6 month job then fired.
hmmmmm........
We put that plan out there to the industry years ago......and got laughed at. Non-endemic teams might work but the endemics will not pay anyone--because they don't have to. Everyone does this for nothing already!
Jayman....why would you expect the likes of RNT to lay a plan out there, without compensation for the plan, in place upfront? |
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