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| Message Subject: Once was hidden.... | |||
martyb |
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Member Posts: 13 | Probably sacrilegious on this site but Gary Gray and his Oshkosh posse were responsible for my much of my loss of interest in tournament fishing in the late 90's/early 00's. He would have a group of boats circling a spot like a war party of Indians circling a group of prairie schooners in the old western movies..... You couldn't get within 200 yards without one of his henchmen fending you off.... | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Fishing "Memories" should be illegal in a multi-day tourney! | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | You CANNOT WIN by fishing memories anyhow, can you? | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Mark Komo - 8/26/2010 6:59 AM What an entertaining thread. I love it. Team Gree-zee chicke Mr. Komo is RIGHT ON!! Most popular threads on the site (all sites) are ALWAYS about anything but the actual fishing and who won the tourney, how he did win and where he won. What kind of boat? What kind of motor and graph? WHO CARES!!!!!! Can you imagine what would happen if the event/sport marketing depts. focused on the human interest element of the event and the sport(like some of this thread did)? How fun could it be, to be fan , to know ALL the good, the bad and the ugly related to the anglers, the event and circuit itself? Just like all other major league sports are covered on Sports Center? LOL Anybody listening......to the likes of Mark Komo and potential fans that really don't care about the actual game itself, but instead the REAL elements fans interests are at?. I think competitive fishing should TAIL PIPE major league sports marketing!!!!!!! In other words...which angler has gone through a hellish divorce lately? The stories never end......unless they're boring like "what lb. test was used". "color of spinner blade to win"? "GPS tracking"? WHO CARES!!! Not many compared to the potential fans that want to hear about how Riley's promise to get married last fall (if he ever won the championship) turned out. But then...as in the past 25 years of marketing failure....THAT story was brushed aside. Mr. Komo got me off topic...or did he? LOL | ||
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| Mark Komo |
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Member Posts: 1195 Location: Orland Park, IL | Sorry about that. Its Team Gree-zee Chicken. I left off the N. Its like dock chatter more than anything. See thats what makes it interesting, we did play the game (at least a little bit), so really not new at all. I can't say I have heard one thing that surprises me. Its still fun! Nobody fishes memories, especially on the illinois river! | ||
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| LurePresentation |
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Member Posts: 132 | Since most everyone seems to keep playing a broken record on the tailpiping/net chasing stuff; that also includes my warped fishing magazine crap, lets name all the best stuff in tournament fishing. My best stuff would be the adrenaline rush!!! Larry Edited by LurePresentation 8/26/2010 10:52 PM | ||
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| Dale |
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Member Posts: 874 Location: Neenah, WI | The best stuff? Getting together with old friends after a long winter. Going to new venues and trying to figure them out. I still remember St. Mary's River and breaking down those huge navigational charts into something more managable (thanks to Rick Grable). Sometimes the journey is fun, one year for Saginaw Bay a bunch of us took the ferry across Lake Michigan to Ludington and drove from there. Making some new friends, trying new presentations that we dreamed up during the winter. Every once in a while one of them worked. Don't forget the anticipation building before leaving home, checking and re-checking everything, then telling yourself to just take a deep breath and relax. There's two sides of the coin. Fishing the Pro side of these events can put an enormous amount of pressure on you. There is one well known Pro who used to throw up every morning. Tailpiping,crowding, etc. are part of it all. If you don't stand up for yourself nobody else will. Edited by Dale 8/27/2010 7:13 AM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | "You CANNOT WIN by fishing memories anyhow, can you?" What are you talking about? All my favorite spots start out with "this one time..." hahaha I agree, Dale, you gotta stand up for yourself! This one time I was fishing a hammer handle pike tourney. I had ran out of gas and I saw the tournament director who was also a competitor hoarding in on my spot, so I dug out my flare gun and fired a round at him.....warning shot across the bow, you know, so I go that going for me, which is nice. | ||
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| FOUNDING FATHER |
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| HEY FELLOWS I POSTED A VERY INTRESTING AND AMUSING POST YESTERDAY. BUT NOBODYS FREIND MR WOR-HOLE , IS PLAYING GOD AND TOOK IT OF, THERE WAS NOTHING OFFENSIVE TO ANYONE IT WAS JUST PLAN FUNNY, YOU KNOW REALLY , THESE WEB SITES REALLY DON,T HELP THE FISHING INDUSTRIE,OR THE FISHERMAN, ALMOST ALL THE COMPANYS AVOID THIS LIKE A LEAD BALOON, THEY WANT NO PART OF THIS OR THESE CONVERSATIONS, THERE SMART. WELL I BET YOU HE WILL TAKE THIS OFF TO. ONE OF YOUR FOUNDING FATHERS OH BY THE WAY WHEN I SAY FOUNDING FATHERS I DONT MEAN ONLY 4 PEOPLE , THERE ARE ALOT MORE PEOPLE OUT HERE THAT STARTED THE FISHING TOURNEYS AND CRAZE, BUT DON'T GET THE CREDIT, | |||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | OK, Jim, that is just rude. You took a couple shots in your post yesterday that were beyond our permissions, and as a result, your post was dusted; nothing personal. Just about everyone on this thread has suffered a deletion or two (ha! Some, may be more than two..), including me. Calling me names won't help your cause much. The 'industry' watches these posts with interest, by the way, so you are also incorrect there. I'm not sure what we did to you to garner all this hostility, but the obvious solution is for you to find somewhere else to be angry for awhile. As far as the history of the sport, that's a subject JK, Thomas Allen (Thomas will interview the Lindners and JK), Ron Lindner and I will be covering this winter. All the way from Manion to present, with no revisionist history leaking into the mix. Interviews with the pioneers and innovators, Team and Pro/AM Anglers of note, tournament organizations, sponsors, promoters, and directors past and present. In fact, the pulse of the sport is being taken by WalleyeFIRST radio's series with Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen regularly, openly discussing topics you may see started right here. A new show featuring a young gun on the FLW Tour will be published when I get back from 'vacation' this week. Can we get this one back on track a bit, gents? | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | sworrall - 8/27/2010 9:10 AM OK, Jim, that is just rude. You took a couple shots in your post yesterday that were beyond our permissions, and as a result, your post was dusted; nothing personal. Just about everyone on this thread has suffered a deletion or two (ha! Some, may be more than two..), including me. Calling me names won't help your cause much. The 'industry' watches these posts with interest, by the way, so you are also incorrect there. I'm not sure what we did to you to garner all this hostility, but the obvious solution is for you to find somewhere else to be angry for awhile. As far as the history of the sport, that's a subject JK, Thomas Allen (Thomas will interview the Lindners and JK), Ron Lindner and I will be covering this winter. All the way from Manion to present, with no revisionist history leaking into the mix. Interviews with the pioneers and innovators, Team and Pro/AM Anglers of note, tournament organizations, sponsors, promoters, and directors past and present. In fact, the pulse of the sport is being taken by WalleyeFIRST radio's series with Ron Lindner and Jim Kalkofen regularly, openly discussing topics you may see started right here. A new show featuring a young gun on the FLW Tour will be published when I get back from 'vacation' this week. Can we get this one back on track a bit, gents? The harsh reality, (nothing personal to any of them), but the names mentioned above, in the history of the game are out of touch with what it takes to market a major league sport--or create a major league sports fan. Proof is in the pudding! And so far, this year, as has been the case for the past 27 years, nothing has changed. Coverage has broadened in some cases but content of coverage is all of the same focus from the unsuccessful past. A new breed of marketing needs to be put in place or slight growth at best will happen down the road. How competitive fishing operates now and in the past is laughable when scrutinized by major league sports marketing depts. and the writers/producers that cover it. Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 12:10 PM | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | Steve, How about you step up, grab a camera, and make it so. All you need to do is invest in a High tech website capable of doing what this one does, acquire the bandwidth and find a way to get a couple hundred thousand anglers to look in on it for news and information, grab about $12,000 worth of gear, learn how to use it, and hit the road to cover all the Pro events. Get other networks to carry your stuff. Find a way to pin down the Pros and ask them family, personal, or other questions ( and get an answer) and make that content relevant to the actual tournament coverage, which whether you like it or not, is core to covering an event; people still want to know the who, what, where, when, why, and how of the success of the top anglers in each event. Spend the extra 3 to 5 days extra during the prefish to get the 'color' and 'up close and personal' items you think will get the job done, end edit and produce those pieces so they don't come off as either 'cheaply' done, or worse...corny. Oh, another thing...get promotional partners and sponsors to step up and pay for it all and make a enough of a profit so you can continue this into the future. It's Major League budgets that allow the huge productions that your examples of 'major league sports' coverage to be produced. Not one single tournament circuit out there has the budget for their entire existence Major League ball of any type has for one World Series game or one Super Bowl. Those examples have developed and evolved WITH radio and TV, over decades of existence, and are of interest to a much wider cross section of the world's average Joes and Josephines. You obviously have not been listening to the WalleyeFIRST radio programs Ron and JK have been doing, they are talking about subjects that haven't been discussed and getting way more 'personal' with some of the top new anglers out there, and some of the salty old Pros. And you are, of course, perfectly within your element to be critical, but are off the edge saying the Lindners 'don't get it' without actually having that discussion as to what they would like to do...believe me, they do get it, and we've had that conversation recently. So do the AIM folks; what you see with the GPS trackers, live video from the water, 4 camera wirecast of the virtual weigh in, and more have never been done before, but this ain't network television or a cable reality show...the money just plain isn't there to DO what you suggest; in fact, the money wasn't there to do TV at ALL this year, for either circuit. In order for your 'out of the box' stuff to apply, there has to be a venue, budget to pay for it, and crew that matches the workload. So reality is the sport has to grow within the boundaries the economy and budgets allow for. Sure, tie 'em in with festivals and the like and create interests off the water within the event...how about a rodeo and a Bull Riding Walleye Champ? Repeatedly pointing fingers that no one else gets it won't make it so. No matter how great your ideas, they have to be within practical application. One more thing, network coverage of a sports hero's up close and personal stuff, the paparazzi and the independent reporters, it isn't done by the NFL or major league Baseball, it's done by the press and the networks. Those shows, interviews, and the like are offered as 'color pieces' before, if relevant...during, and after the game BY THE NETWORK who paid the NFL to carry that game and grab the huge advertising contracts that are the result or networks looking to get some eyeballs on thier content despite the fact they didn't carry the game. But..... the fans are there....to watch the game. If what you are suggesting is going to be applied, we need to find a way to bring that game..on the water as it happens..into your home and the majority of all others across the world. Seems to me AIM is doing exactly that, constrained ONLY by the harsh reality of budgets. So from one who's been on the other side of this coin since Manion, all it takes is huge money and ways to apply that money to acquiring a fan base... and huge money ain't there. So it will take the slow and painful growth and fallbacks due to the economy the sport has endured since the 70's, unless someone has a new mousetrap. Mr. Jacobs seemed to have one for awhile, but it was, after all the Pomp and Circumstance, another wood slab with a spring and some wire...just a better paying one...for awhile. We'll have to wait and see what the all new FLW offers next year, that guy never quits. That said, BASS creates personalities, and plays on them (yet ESPN is selling BASS, not enough of a a money maker, I'd bet). Were trying at WalleyeFIRST, we really are, but it's not easy to get the Walleye guys to step up. | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sooooo.... after days of deliberation and insight from a few old salts, whats the verdict? Can we use "Once was hidden is now publically exposed" with in the parameters to change the face of the game and draw in new fans? Can we use it to our advantage or will it be the stake in the heart of the beast? Can the promoters make a game of the teams? Or maybe they don't want to. Edited by stacker 8/27/2010 3:29 PM | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Stacker, You might be able to have a professional event like AIM with teams but I'll maintain that it should be an individual sport. If they establish "team rules" they might get more/new attention and have a better chance at large sponsor and marketing dollars. billions will be spent again next year. The real problem doesn't lie at this professional level with Aim and Irwin (FLW) though (and now that its out there it will probably open some eyes)......There still needs to be a viable ladder like Bass has for those of us born without that silver spoon. There are a lot of great sticks that had 2 learn some of this the hard way (very evident in this thread alone) and if they had known of these ways around a rule when they started it probably wouldn't have left that bad taste in their mouth and either they would have found something else to complain about or they would still be playing! Steve, I like your reply about the media, but Fellegy has a very valid point. How many of your "news stories" have individual IP Hits, your photos, Live coverage, what was once considered news worthy is now yesterdays news. etc. etc. Point being that bringing it into the home is nice but so outdated already. In this day and age that still isn't enough you need to make it live streaming real time. and offer more than just a camera shot of a guy on stage. It needs to be exciting, off the wall something EVERYONE will be talking about. talk to anyone and most (all teenagers today) get their news and current events from a social networking site......Go spend a day in a college commons area and you'll understand what I mean. Good Luck Tyee Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | LOL Same old answers and excuses. The money is their IF the plan is created and the right people make the pitch. I, for one, am not in a position to make that pitch for various reasons. Nor am I or for that matter, anyone I know within the industry, presently, is the right pitchman. Remember when I brought the stuff I speak of now, back in 1988, to the MWC, at a meeting/presentation I called at O'Hare? 10 NFL players had formed an LLC to build the new mouse trap you speak of. Way back then....and what happened? The MWC and the industry laughed and walked away. The production people, lawyers and the players rep were shocked at the blinders everyone had on then. And they were insulted, to say the least. So--I won't debate with you here. But your excuse about lack of funding is the least of the issue. Getting all the key aspects of the sport to support, 100 percent, a new marketing culture, run by non-endemic people, is the problem that holds up the growth. If you doubt me, sit down with a fortune 500 company rep that funds NASCAR or any of the major league sports. Sit down with the Sports Center people and ask what really is the issue with the lack of success in the BASS coverage! They will tell you, flat out, the fishing industry leaders do NOT want what it takes (the good the bad and the ugly) to be part of it. The amount of money you speak of needing, is nothing....... 22 years later, when the industry turned away from opportunity, nothing has changed. (I can't recall if you were at that meeting/presentation or not--I doubt it though) The attitudes are the same within the sport. Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 4:26 PM | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | "But your excuse about lack of funding is the least of the issue. Getting all the key aspects of the sport to support, 100 percent, a new marketing culture, run by non-endemic people, is the problem that holds up the growth." VERY VERY well said Steve and I couldn't agree more.. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Fellegy, TYee, sworrall I want to hear your answer to this question only. We need to grow competitive walleye fishing so it will benefit......... | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | Wow. The difference between fishing as an angler/Pro and actually operating a circuit. Yes, I remember the NFL deal, but the reaction is not clear in the old memory at this point. The MWC was a different animal back then, not even in the same ball park as it is now from every perspective. Both you and Tyee missed the fact the 'press' isn't a 'circuit'. There's your most important issue for what you seem to want. Excuses? How about realities? Easy to sit on the sideline and criticize, harder to address the reality of the business and actually make it so. What the heck are you talking about....immediate and live is not 'old news'. You are ON a social media site. We post everything of substance to Facebook by the way, and tweet it too. Look it up. SF: That is interesting; please offer what AIM and FLW should do that can be funded and how those funds wold be accessed. And PLEASE show us all how to get the money in the door to do what you suggest, if it's so simple to do. The amount of money is 'nothing'? That's interesting, how much would it cost to air a 1/2 hour AIM TV show on the Outdoor Channel? How much to shoot it and produce it? I already know the numbers and it isn't within reach and wouldn't be supported with today's budgets for the endemics and non endemics. Who IS that pitch man, and what IS the marketing plan that will bring millions into the sport? What would be the interest of the industry in the plan, if any? Believe me, I'm more than interested, and not a bit willing to let this go until we've done some back and forth...why not, a couple of old warriors discussing the ails of the sport? I have a function to attend, more later. | ||
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| LurePresentation |
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Member Posts: 132 | I said my best stuff would be the adrenaline rush in tournament fishing. This comes from the rewards, compliments, and the personal satisfaction after dissecting a body of water, then bringing in a winning basket of fish to the scale. Larry | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | quote:Both you and Tyee missed the fact the 'press' isn't a 'circuit'. There's your most important issue for what you seem to want. " If the "circuits" would have been and are smart enough today...they'd make sure the press MAKES the circuit. Fact is, that if press releases/writers covered, on a daily or weekly basis, YEAR'ROUND, the likes of the various debates within this thread, and were sent out since the Manion Outdoors circuit days, you'd have fans more than you ever could imagine. But instead...as the tilte to the thread says "once hidden" is STILL hidden for the most part. I won't debate here anymore, because game changers are NOT on here to debate with me(they are too afraid and are "hidden"). That said, I have consistently, debated the same stuff with the game changers, every week, year 'round, including the past couple years, for 27 years. And will continue to do so until the modern day culture of competitive fishing marketing is created and becomes a way of life. What I've said here, the current and past game changers have already heard.....'nuff said by me....for now. More seeds have been sown. LOL One more tidbit....you ask about money? If the current endemic sponsors of the two top circuits pooled $$ resources and hired a marketing company such as the likes that created WWA, they would NOT have to spend another dime down the road to advertise their products. Proof? When is the last time you saw Wilson, Rawlings and Spalding spending $$ on ads? Yet their sales flourish! Why? Because they allowed and still do, a marketing culture that creates NON-ATHLETIC FANS--that in the end, create enough consumers of grass roots levels, to support their companies. Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 6:35 PM | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | No way you make claims like that and get a free pass to walk off with nothing more than 'Because I said so' as an explanation. If you think Brunswick/Wal Mart don't invest in a PR/Ad agency firm and implement the marketing plan they design, you are mistaken. I doubt they'd pool money, and Brunswick is one company, so that's not a possibility either. Bad example on the sporting goods, those particular brands rely on the Schools, little league, Babe Ruth, and High School ball, and the same goes for soccer and hockey; secondarily marketed to the young 'fans' of the sport which requires the equipment they sell. Last time I saw them advertise? This month. Look around, they are still advertising in circulars, buying space through price/advertising/merchandising agreements with the Wal Marts and K marts and Targets of the US, and they have TV ads as well. I get what you are saying, though. Here's the bottom line. If you want change, the level you are at right here, right now is where it starts. Insulting us out of hand as a collective group, or seriously underestimating our numbers is a tactical error as bad or worse than any you claim the circuit leaders have made in the past. | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Obviously they have the WRONG PR agency at FLW...so using that guidance is a mistake. Proof is in the pudding there. You say--Bad example on the sporting goods, those particular brands rely on the Schools, little league, Babe Ruth, and High School ball, and the same goes for soccer and hockey; secondarily marketed to the young 'fans' of the sport which requires the equipment they sell. I say those school kids and the like are first fans....then consumers! Why? Watch Sports Center. "Insulting" you say? Recall I said "nothing personal" from the beginning. Now it's bed time for me........with a parting thought. "The way to become truly useful is to seek the best that other brains have to offer. Use them to supplement your own, and be prepared to give credit to them when they have helped." Harvey MacKay Edited by Steve Fellegy 8/27/2010 7:48 PM | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | All I know for sure is if your ideas actually have merit, we need to flesh them out here and now, and I'm challenging you to do so. I mentioned Wal Mart and Brunswick as major sponsors answering your comment, not FLW. 'I won't debate here anymore, because game changers are NOT on here to debate with me(they are too afraid and are "hidden"). That said, I have consistently, debated the same stuff with the game changers, every week, year 'round, including the past couple years, for 27 years. And will continue to do so until the modern day culture of competitive fishing marketing is created and becomes a way of life. What I've said here, the current and past game changers have already heard.....'nuff said by me....for now. More seeds have been sown. LOL ' That's pretty condescending and actually rude to the 'game changers' out there, Steve. PLEASE drop the 'all you other idiots don't get it' stuff and teach us something; I get the frustration, but that don't make it so. I think you have some good, solid concepts to offer. If you have failed for 27 years to gain a proper audience or convince 'them' you are on to something, perhaps you need to look at your overall delivery methodology and style and use this network and others where debates like this are encouraged and kept civil to get your points aired carefully and fully and perhaps acquire a couple new influential folks as associates to your concepts. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | FG, I didn't miss the point that "Press" is not a circuit. Actually I believe whole heartedy that the circuit will come and be developed by those large sponsors, the directors of past will be molded into what the sponors want to see to promote their product. AND the media/marketing will flourish when they realize the opportunitys these dollars present. BUT until the field is level you won't find a single sponsor willing to invest those marketing dollars needed to Grow. Stacker, Rephrase your statement as a question...or did I just answer it? those little league babe ruth and other groups you refer to are team sports , with very stringent team rules. Wilson, Rawlings, spalding? Are they spending large dollars on major pro sports figurers or investing heavily on marketing now? I haven't seen them? Which single sports figure do they invest heavily on? You see they don't and they don't for a reason. But they have much larger audience at a much younger age. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Essay question. No right or wrong answer, just see's where everyone is at with there agenda's. Why do you want to see it grow? We need to grow competitive walleye fishing so it will benefit......... | ||
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