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Message Subject: 'Teams' in Pro Walleye Angling..Opinions? | |||
RNT![]() |
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It is not a simple little "fix" where you can blurb something on line and "TAH DAH!" everything is okay. It takes a complete business plan to restructure the sport to reach viability and framing one takes time...lots of time and no one will ever do it without compensation, including me. If you want the benefit from it then come up with one yourself and present it to the people with the funds to get it done. Stacker has the right idea on how it should be done and Fellegy has proposed the same in the past. No one grabs onto it and having a third person present a different version of the same concept will not push this pig out of the mud. The sport is in a very unique situation...everyone wants things to change without changing anything. The whole current model has to be scrapped and start back at square one, but this time frame it around a fan base. I think the area to concentrate now is on the individual pro-fishermen, helping them to gain exposure so whatever system rises out of this mess they can be right there to bring the sport back to a level of sanity and influence. | |||
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Johnny V![]() |
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Stacker, not sure you are on the right track. Here is my opinion, you start giving pro fisherman salaries to be on a team, the compitition becomes less important, they are still getting paid whether they cash a check in a tournament or not. Wether you play in the big leagues or fish a few $100 tournaments, people help each other out, I've even heard it at small tournaments, "I would rather have my buddy joe blow win then some out of towner" so they talk. As I have said before, you can prefish all you want as a team, It is only you making the decisions come tournament day. Wrestling is an individual sport, it is only you and your opponent out there, but I will tell you, if it weren't for my teamates i wouldn't be worth a lick. To me, that is the same principle. | |||
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Guest![]() |
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Johny V If that would be the outcome then it would mean that the fishermen of today are only in it for the money and there is no passion for the sport...something that is not the case. These fishermen love the sport and the effort put in if they were salaried would be just as intense at today. | |||
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tyee![]() |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Well now that the idea is out there.......It really is the only way to build a sport if there are going to be teams. JonnyV, It isn't a matter of if I'm getting paid to cash a check or not, Its a profession/industry/career path I choose to be a part of. If I chose this as a career path I need to be the kind of person that can market my companies products for them...I need to be the face of said company, I need to be valuable enough to do more than just win a tourney. And said company doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with fishing. Just because I have deep pockets doesn't mean I am the best person to represent a company either (unless of course it's my own). The cream of the crop will rise to the top fast and the rest will fade away. This would be considered an owners circuit and the investment in the team belongs to the team, they are their own company they have all the necessary employes required. A president, marketing, accountant, board of directors and so on. This team of 3, as Stacker put it competes against each other and shares with each other throughout the circut, rules are designed to prevent any cheating which would be very easy to do. The hard part is finding those 50 companies that will buy into the business plan. But I'll tell you what...... Marketing budgets are exploding right now and Billions are being spent on silly campaigns! With the right promotion/media company this plan should be able to be sold very easily Good Luck Tyee | ||
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Johnny V![]() |
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I do not agree with this at all. If I want to put my money up to compete at a pro level, I will, you do this and most folks do not have a chance to compete at this level because it is already staged. I don't care how you look at it, fishing is still an individual sport during tournament day. What you guys are asking in my opinion is rediculous. You don't think Berkley, Ranger, Lund, Rapala, etc don't already spend a lot of money for promotions and help sponsor events, and then ask them to fork over another $150,000 for three guys to promote their products on top of that, and who is going to pay for the rest of the employees you are proposing? I do not have all the answers, but I think we are missing the question that was asked in the first place, do you agree with teams or not in pro fishing, first you say no, now you are coming up with ways to have teams. I love fishing walleyes and walleye tournaments, you turn this into a big corporate thing and I think you will lose interest in a hurry. I for one would not follow this type of format. | |||
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Guest![]() |
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A franchised sport where the sport itself is out of the hands of the industry. This model also provides the best chance at the growth of the sport, team ownership is the correct way to move in the right direction here. | |||
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stacker![]() |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Fellegy, I am sure many ideas over time have been brought up, but the fork did not stick because it was not time. The flw helped create these teams of today. Nothing against them, but thats what has happened. would it be accepted today? well, who knows. Also, this is a discussion board. I get confused on why you back RNT's idea's, or lack there of. he only looks for compensation every step of the way so I for one wish he would just quit posting. WHY you ask? because he just tells us its broke and that the ideas coming up will not work, and refuses to share is vast amount of knowledge and his close influence of major friends that know so much about todays game. RNT Thats the truth, I dont think there is 1 person out there that care to read your thoughts and watch you kick this industry anylonger with out at least discussing possible avenues. Johnnyv, everyone will have a opnion how things will work. Think about this......Do you think that the junior circuits would simply FLY OFF THE HANDLE with players spending lots of cash to GET THE JOB OF A LIFE TIME? I think so. I think a 20 group could hash out such a workable plan in a week. This would not be the fisherman doing it, it would be a serious business model that would work. The greed factor would have to be removed and accounted for at every step. Greed helped crush this. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION. | ||
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tyee![]() |
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Member Posts: 1406 | your so right denny and the business model could be carried right down to the weekend warrior with less payouts. the thought that berkley lund ranger etc. would be forking out tons of cash to support this is silly! They aren't rich enough.....think bigger JonnyV....Pepsi Coke Microsoft....Heck if Irwin can sell it to ONE company (Walmart) why can't we sell it to the world on his example that just needs refining! He too was out to line (HIS) pockets why can't we line multiple pockets instead. Again Jonny you said fishing is an individual sport come tourney day? Well it is or it isn't you can't have it both ways and expect it to grow OR CAN YOU? Good Luck Tyee Edited by tyee 6/9/2010 4:19 PM | ||
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Steve Fellegy![]() |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 3:36 PM Fellegy, I am sure many ideas over time have been brought up, but the fork did not stick because it was not time. The flw helped create these teams of today. Nothing against them, but thats what has happened. would it be accepted today? well, who knows. Also, this is a discussion board. I get confused on why you back RNT's idea's, or lack there of. he only looks for compensation every step of the way so I for one wish he would just quit posting. WHY you ask? because he just tells us its broke and that the ideas coming up will not work, and refuses to share is vast amount of knowledge and his close influence of major friends that know so much about todays game. RNT Thats the truth, I dont think there is 1 person out there that care to read your thoughts and watch you kick this industry anylonger with out at least discussing possible avenues. Johnnyv, everyone will have a opnion how things will work. Think about this......Do you think that the junior circuits would simply FLY OFF THE HANDLE with players spending lots of cash to GET THE JOB OF A LIFE TIME? I think so. I think a 20 group could hash out such a workable plan in a week. This would not be the fisherman doing it, it would be a serious business model that would work. The greed factor would have to be removed and accounted for at every step. Greed helped crush this. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION. 1. where have I backed RNT's "ideas"? I like the tema concept--he doesn't, right? I do back his passion as a fan and his passion to help the growth of the sport. In the real world, all the RNT's major league sports can get, they take and value them as they create numbers that create ad $$. 2. FLW didn't create anything. Especially "team fishing". That's almost funny. Team fishing started to flourish in the '94 PWT season. I have the factual details as to why it started in a big way that year. It was being done at much smaller scale but out there, long before that--even back in the early MWC days. All FLW did was break a lot anglers pocket books. Just as the PWT did. Don't start talking history of anything in this regard or other stuff without the real, whole story. The bottom line is, if and when fishing related marketing departments get out of marketing professional fishing, at the bass level or walleye or whatever, only then will everyone involved make money at this game. | ||
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Rich S![]() |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | Steve, I thought all the PWT and FLW did was create a venue for us fishermen to participate in. | ||
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stacker![]() |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | history steve is a funny thing, it is remembered differently by different people. if you believe that teams started in 94 then it is so. However, maybe you should check in to just how the big teams are working these days. Edited by stacker 6/9/2010 6:23 PM | ||
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Steve Fellegy![]() |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | Rich S - 6/9/2010 5:36 PM Steve, I thought all the PWT and FLW did was create a venue for us fishermen to participate in. Or did we, the anglers, create a venue for In-Fishermen to grow to a value of 55 million $$? And MWC /PWT/FLW sponsors to create an industry? That was their plan...and it worked. BUT! Unlike any other game, the owners of the game didn't pay the players. Just themselves. And I blame, myself and countless other anglers for getting sucked into it, based on their original promises. Remember now... I was there, in most cases, behind the scenes. Every step of the way. | ||
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Steve Fellegy![]() |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | stacker - 6/9/2010 6:16 PM history steve is a funny thing, it is remembered differently by different people. if you believe that teams started in 94 then it is so. However, maybe you should check in to just how the big teams are working these days. I won't debate this. lol I am very well aware of how the team concept works now. I also have a letter from JK in my files that show who started the first major team in walleye fishing at the highest level. The team concept took off in '94 because the first major team(5 guys) in '93 won 75% of the PWT events the year before--and was made public among the anglers at the awards banquet in the fall of '93. Remember, I was there...and still am in many ways behind the scenes, as I type. My last post on this thread now......nothing to debate here. Facts are what they are. Edited by Steve Fellegy 6/9/2010 6:35 PM | ||
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Rich S![]() |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | I was not there so my opinion means nothing and I have a lot of respect for you but: I have heard this many times before and it always bothered me. All I can say is that if I go to Vegas and lose all my money that is my own fault. I like the thought of personal accountability and take responsibility for my own actions. I guess there is a reason infomercials exist... | ||
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Just a fan![]() |
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What is the big deal? Teams exist and have so for a long time. What are you all afraid of and why won't anyone openly explain how these teams work? I have followed this thread from the being and you talk about the fact you know so much about teams but why won't you openly say what you know. I for one would like to know how teams work. Besides the simple fact they share information. I have no problem with that as a fan, but it seems like there is more to it the makes it so confrontational. Disclaimer:When I use the word "you" I am not refering to any one single poster and I am not singling out any specific response. | |||
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tyee![]() |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Rich, aren't you and Steve saying the same thing just from differnet sides of the crap table! (no pun intended). Steve I beg to differ in only that the FLW DID create the team concept, one big one at that and their competition was the PWT. Irwin lined his pockets with Walmart and got a bunch of his buddies to buy his boats and motors. So you see he created the ultimate "team". Now lets follow his example and build 50 more like them! Just a fan,....there are many things wrong with Teams that prevent others from joining in the sport. Just talk to people fishing tourneys that end up in the bottom half. They will give you an earfull. Jealousy is evident as is ego but more shocking will be some of the things you hear! many of these things have been posted on message boards in the past and passed off as "hearsay" so we don't need to discuss, some here are being critisized for such comments but there is a big difference in what you will hear from those entered in a $30, $50, $300 team bar tourney than those in the FLW/AIM pro/am events, these pro/am teams are starting to function in a much different way today than they did in 1994. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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Johnny V![]() |
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Tyee, it seems to me that you are contradicting your self. Now you are saying that teams make it hard to allow for anyone to join the sport. But lets make corporate teams and you think it will be easy for anyone to get in the sport once the teams are "picked". I am only basing my opinion on the AIM circuit, because that is all I has been a part of as a co-angler, but I have never heard anyone complain the way prefishing is done or tournaments are run. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way a team has "some" advantage is they can break down a bigger body on water then can a solo fisherman. My feeling is the people who do not like teams, can't get on one, so it is easier to complain then to work harder to compete. If you were all on a team and having some success, you would be "oh teams are great" Maybe I am not thinking big enough, but I feel you put fishing into the corporate hands, that can't be good. Are there anymore pro fisherman who can add to this, thier thought on a corporate run circuit. matbe I just need to understand the concept more, because right now what I see doesn't make sence. | |||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Just a fan - 6/10/2010 8:39 AM What is the big deal? Teams exist and have so for a long time. What are you all afraid of and why won't anyone openly explain how these teams work? I have followed this thread from the being and you talk about the fact you know so much about teams but why won't you openly say what you know. I for one would like to know how teams work. Besides the simple fact they share information. I have no problem with that as a fan, but it seems like there is more to it the makes it so confrontational. Disclaimer:When I use the word "you" I am not refering to any one single poster and I am not singling out any specific response.
Just a fan: The problem with trying to explain how teams work is that every team is different. Expectations and outcomes vary from team to team. Some may just share generalities and there is no monetary stakes. Others may have members with assigned tasks for each prefish day; have phone conversations throughout the day; compare notes, gps coordinates and results; and share any winnings equally. Other teams may fall somewhere in between. Another problem is that successful teams will not share what they do. Why should they? If they are successful, they do not want to show others how they are successful. This is a partnership between members. Many will feel that it is none of your business how they operate. | ||
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Shep![]() |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Sunshine - 6/10/2010 11:27 AM This is a problem? Why? I'm sure Rick Hendrick is not sharing his engine building secrets with Earnhardt/Ganassi, or Rousch, or Gibbs. They rent motors out to other teams, but these motors are sealed, and those teams never, ever, get to peek inside. Secrets eventually get out, but it's not openly sharing. Pretty sure 90-99.999% of the anglers on the stage are exactly forthcoming when asked where and how. While the way teams have formed and operate has evolved over the years, (What hasn't?), teams certainly existed before the RCL/FLW. | ||
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tyee![]() |
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Member Posts: 1406 | JonnyV, I'm not trying to sound contradicting, and often express my opinion like I know more than I do which is often percieved wrong. I can tell you this, I have fished tourneys and maybe will again sometime but right now the ones I can afford are full of suspicious activity that I don't care to waste my money on. If I could afford to play in this rich mans sport (AIM) model which IMO is the only game worth playing.....I would. Quite frankly IMHO all the other $30, $50, $300 entry events need to adopt their rules and get on board. Co anglers are not "team" members and quite frankly if they continue to evolve their team concept as it grows they have a winning business model. While I still feel fishing is an individual sport which I would like to play in, I do believe as RNT said you need to have rules for teams. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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LurePresentation![]() |
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Member Posts: 132 | I like teams for the money tastes great. I like non-teams for the money is less filling. Taste great!, less filling!, taste great!, less filling! Larry | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Shep - 6/10/2010 4:27 PM Sunshine - 6/10/2010 11:27 AM This is a problem?
The original poster asked why it was such a problem with explaining how teams work. I explained why. I did not say that teams were a problem. I did not say that the way they operate is a problem. Nor did I insinuate that the secrecy of how they operate is problematic. I stand on what I wrote earlier. If it is not against the rules (and it is not) then it acceptable. I totally disagree with the perception of some that "teams" are a part of a perceived problem with tournament fishing. I had a different mindset than other rookies when I did my first FLW Tour and PWT. I put my dues in and accepted my fate along with the knowledge that there were teams. I befriended existing Pro's prior to entering my first events and was accepted into teams. I had my eyes wide open entering into these top end tournaments. I have no sympathy for those who do not do their homework. If you do not know what you are getting into it is your own fault. Unlike the perception painted here by some, the existing Pro's are not like sharks circling the life raft. Most are good people with great intentions trying to live the dream. If their business plan upsets some, I do not believe it is a curse or their problem.
The day will come when there will be two very distinct levels of play. Level one will be for those willing to throw their own money into the pot. No different than our local tournaments. TFM is a great example of a great model. The second level for walleye fishing will be like the BASS Elite. You must qualify and you do not have to pay your way. But to stay there you must continue to prove yourself. The PWT tried a ranking system that would have worked (IMHO) for this type of series.
You guys keep looking for answers to a percieved problem (Sorry, Steve I'm getting off track). My personal opinion is that walleye tournaments are boring now with they way they are covered. Only die-hards (most who are reading this thread) like watching them. But we are watching them for an exposed secret; cheering on a buddy; trying to learn about a new body of water; or just because there is nothing better to do. The average person can care less. Face it, watching planer boards for a show is boring. I said it before and was beat up pretty good on this site. Get rid of live bait. Making it artificials only is a start. Do human interest stories. I believe that AIM has a lot of little pieces starting to work for them. I also believe that coverage on the internet is the future but they need to store and reshow the story later for free. And oh yea. let anglers be sponsored by alcohol, cigarettes, casino's ect. tTying to keep that wholesome image is not working.
Amen | ||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | tyee - I can tell you this, I have fished tourneys and maybe will again sometime but right now the ones I can afford are full of suspicious activity that I don't care to waste my money on.
Oh Boy, I can't wait to here what this means. Still got that nervous twitch Tyee :-) UFO's stealing the fish? All top teams must be hiding their fish on stringers in the lake and collect them when no one is looking?
Inquisitive minds gotta know!
But please remember, unsubstantiated i innuendo does more harm than good if you are really trying to improve the sport.
I'll go get the popcorn buddy. Spill your guts. | ||
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Guest![]() |
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Like I said before ask the bottom half of the pool of anglers over the next 2 weeks and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Visit some of the other discussion boards about this past weekends event of 350+ boats and you'll get a feel for what the "FAN" has to say! if your media or a touring pro you'll get an entirely different story than if your buying a stranger a beer and listening to him spill his guts! Good Luck Tyee | |||
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Sunshine![]() |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Guest - 6/10/2010 7:25 PM Like I said before ask the bottom half of the pool of anglers over the next 2 weeks and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Visit some of the other discussion boards about this past weekends event of 350+ boats and you'll get a feel for what the "FAN" has to say! if your media or a touring pro you'll get an entirely different story than if your buying a stranger a beer and listening to him spill his guts! Good Luck Tyee
Give web sites that you are referring to. Enlighten us, This is WF, they will not mind. Asking the bottom half sounds more like listen to sour grapes. The bottom in that national tournament always complain.
As far as buying a beer. No one is stranger than you. I'll buy you that beer or two. | ||
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