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| Steve, I'll try to "wrap it up". My point with the articles first is since my opinion is not welcomed by some. I'll cite other "published" articles since that seems to be a measureing stick around here.
The articles themselves taken in context cite that St. Clair has "bounced back". And that there has been more than one fish kill in recent years. One is a guide and is not a fisheries expert. But if we're entitled to discount this persons opinion who fishes the actual body of water. Well, then we should just give Capt. Dan the boot since he clearly would be speaking mearly on opinion and not on fact and his opinions would mean nothing.  No offense Capt. Dan, you and I may not always agree, but I still read your posts and listen to your point of view. That's my point here. So let's give creedence to the St. Clair guide who says the fishery is fine. Can we?
Secondly, many here keep referencing "thier" expert, fisheries biologist, DNR personnel. etc. etc. The article with the picture, mearly a factual article of what did happen. The following article, where Darryl Bathel, who heads the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources cold-water hatchery at French River cites a much larger "doom & gloom" approach. My point, these experts aren't perfect, they do make mistakes. And for us to take every word as gospel, I think would be nieve (opinion). and No, I'm not bashing the DNR here. I think Kendall Kamke is probably the best DNR biologist Winnebago has ever seen. But I'm pretty sure even Kendall would be willing to admitt that he once made a mistake in his life.
Next, and mostly opinion, the St. Clair fishery is not a normal muskie fishery. If it was, why don't we build some "super fisherys" for muskies here in WI, IL, MN, IN, Canada? This could easily be done by an overload of stocking right? Double digit # of catches would be the norm? It's simply a predator/prey relationship and population cycles, what many don't think about is disease is still part of that predator/prey relationship, it works more in a reversed manner than we are used to thinking. When a certain species reaches a high point in the population cycle, something will balance it. This has been going on since the dawn of time. Bubonic plague is blamed on rodents, the rodents during mid-evil times of europe were at populations highs, humans were an innocent bystander. Mother nature doesn't care what gets in the way, it just finds balance.
Lastly, why must you insinuate that people don't care if they don't agree with the DNR? Would you feel the same way if the 4000 muskies were carp? It's quite clear that some muskie fishermen are a bit nuerotic about "thier" fish. And heaven forbid one fish dies. I could see how from that point of view, that 4000 dead muskies would seem as extreme as the Nazi holoucost of exterminating Jews.
I know we won't agree, and I enjoy lively debate, but let's not press agenda's.
Peace! |
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Location: Rhinelander | Jayman,
Good point! I bet the CDC would freak out big time if 4000 fatal cases of plague showed up in Detroit. Sure, biologists make mistakes. I never said they don't, I made the point I'd trust them to make decisions on our fisheries before I'd trust you or RedNeck, or cash, or me. I take offense not at folks opinions, I take offense at folks taking unwarranted PUBLIC shots at those biologists that are based on total bunk, and if the biologists were here talking and took an unwarranted shot at you, my reaction would be the same. I ask everyone in this debate to use factual information to argue, or openly admit they have none and are only wishing to complain or support the regs because they feel like it. That's the very nature of an open discussion.
I'll get the Lake St Clair population figures for you to put them in context with other World Class Muskie fisheries, and post them here. Answer to your why we don't 'build' super fisheries for muskies...Bay of Green Bay, Mille Lacs, Vermilion, lakes across the country now putting out numbers or big muskies depending on management goals, etc. and efforts underway elsewhere...look into it, you may be pleasantly surprised. Sure, St is a destination, but many true Trophy fisheries are just now coming of age, and the ST needed more restrictions on harvest to hit that level. it's on it's way, we will see.
No, an 'overload' of stocking won't necessarily build a super fishery. The reverse commonly has occurred, in fact.
As to the reference to the outbreak on St Clair, sure I'd be upset if they were carp on the St and the virus was proven to kill muskies too, that would be perceived as a HUGE dodged bullet and a serious incident. The argument isn't whether you either agree with, or do not agree with the DNR, it's whether you feel the virus is as much a threat as those folks and other agencies apparently do. Those who disagree and feel the disease is not a big deal can have at it saying that all they wish, but need to back that with something other than 'stupid agencies, those guys are "@#$%^' rhetoric. I didn't say anything at all about disagreeing with anyone indicating whether you 'care' about the fishery, I said I personally feel VHS is too much a threat to take lightly, and in light of that can't see why others wouldn't at least consider that possibility. In my mind, saying VHS is something that should be handled by us laymen, no regs should be implemented, and all of us sportsmen should just ignore the whole thing and call those who don't fools is reckless and unwise. AND, I've expressed a ton of times this is my opinion.
The rest of the reference is ridiculous and offensive. Bad choice for a comparison, I'd edit that if I were you.
RNT,
We are talking about why the regulations are in place right now and why they are there, and I don't find them absurd as you do and find it distracting to the facts of the matter to answer debate with absurdities; there's the core of our differences.
Think of Lake St Clair as a very large country. In a segment of that country there is a viral outbreak. Several thousand of the adult residents of that area die. No one is sure if there will be another outbreak in the near future, or how bad it will be.
Now think about Lake Michigan, Bay of Green Bay, and the FOX, plus the Winnebago system, and apply the same logic there. The agencies release documents all along from the first outbreak to the last over just a few seasons, tying together details outbreaks and identifying what happened as this spread.
Our DNR decides to take emergency action when an outbreak occurs here based on what the agencies dealing with this virus know about what can happen in inland lakes and waterways when an outbreak hits, witness the Michigan inland lake. The DNR openly communicates this is interim while the impact of this virus, a different strain than that in Europe, is assessed. The rules are then put in place.
A whole bunch of folks simply adapt. Some folks decide to help get the word out and behave pro actively. Another group decides to complain about it out in the public, and insist everyone else is over reacting.
There's your debate.
There's context. |
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| Good points, Steve. I think were in agreement on the VHS. I just choose to complain. But my complaint, I believe still comes with merit.
The DNR enacted an emergency order against fishermen on controlling the spread of VHS. The reason they did this is because they can. Weather it's effective or not is another arguement. But if the DNR can rule an emergency order against fishermen, why don't they do the same against the salty going freighters on the Great Lakes? It's clearly been blamed on nearly every front by the DNR, EPA, FDA etc. etc.. They don't because when you boil it down. It'll get tossed out of court and laughed at. This is where I have a huge problem. And I will continue to complain, perhaps some day this squeaky wheel will get greased.
As for St Clair, out of the "super fisheries" cited, I think GB stands a good chance to become the next St Clair. I also think we're setting ourselves up for "disaster" when something trys to "balance" the situation. Opinion via Crystal ball view.
VHS will come and VHS will go, this because it's a virus. A virus where the host can develope immunity. No, not all will survive, but the population as a whole will. In the mean time, while we fight to prevent the spread of this one exotic. How many more will be introduced? Big picture of it all, we're on the losing end right now. Am I complaining? Sure. But I think it's not that far from the truth.
We should debate perception next, I have not voted on Rich S' poll. I find it interesting how the results are going, by mostly people that are in the know. There are far more people who do fish that are not in the know. A friend I fished with this weekend I asked him if he understood the VHS rule and to kill his minnows. He did not know. I would say he fishes more than the average person, but not anywhere's close to the vast majority of WF visitors. "Perception is everything". BTW, fishing was slow.
Edited by Jayman 1/15/2008 11:00 AM
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Location: Rhinelander | The GL Strain of Muskies in Green Bay is not being 'created', it's being restored. The density there will not ever be high enough to need 'correction', especially now VHS and all the interstate bans on fish transfers is in place.
You just nailed where this confuses me the most, the DNR did WHAT? Agianst??? That's the problem, in a nutshell, some folks identify any regulation they don't like as 'against' their right to fish they way they wish, when it's actually designed and intended to CONSERVE that very same resource for those very people, and, the rest of us, too, I guess.
The federal Government needs to create new regs controlling freighters and other internationally owned and operated shipping, and enforce them without an unfunded mandate to the States. And, some of the Great Lakes are Canadian controlled.
VHS may 'go', we will see. it's already here, so the other part is proven.
We are arguing perception.
Wish I was fishing now, slow fishing beats work any day....
Lake St Clair:
670 Square miles of surface area
Source: http://www.great-lakes.net/lakes/stclairReport/summary_00.pdf
Acreage converted: 428,800
Estimated Muskie population: 100,000
Source: MIDNR quotes, need to confirm
density: .2332089 per acre
Density generally seen in trophy fishery: .3 approx or less, see Research Forum MuskieFIRST for in depth discussion.
Webster Lake, Indiana population density: estimates average 5 per acre.
Pelican Lake, Oneida County WI, 50" limit: .3 per acre est.
OK, lets say a lake like Lake George, with a 40" limit and around 500 acres is infected. Since the surface area is so small, the infection is going to be much more likely to be systemic. There may be 5 or 6 top tier Muskies in there, and a very few really big walleyes. Good chance we would lose a large portion of the population, and it takes 12 years to build it back. That would be a hit, in my mind, that is worth trying our best to help to avoid.
A fellow is fishing Muskies on Winnebago coming from Cauldron, and bought 4 $5.00 suckers there. He decides to keep his suckers in his livewell (breaking the law) heads up the Green Bay and trolls, keeping his suckers alive using his baitwell pump, then heads to Vilas or Oneida for the rest of the week. He fishes George, using suckers now infected by the virus, and loses one when rigging it. He dumps the suckers a couple days later in Little John.
See what could happen? I know a bunch of guys who move around that much for 'eyes and muskies. |
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| I don't find the rules in them selves absurd, I find them inaffective if VHS is as bad as people state. If your going to take the stand that VHS is very bad but then you make regulations with very big gapping holes in them, that is what I find and mean by absurd.
Goverment agencies are well known for overblowing things. Since you brought up the human factor take the bird flu virus in Asia. In three years under 50 people died in all of Asia from the virus and it went nowhere else, but look at the stink that gov. agencies and scientists made it out to be, it was supposed to kill tens of thousands if not more so they made flu shots for everyone in the country even though they didn't even know if it would even work. The virus issue didn't go away because of goverment, it went away because a virus is a virus.
I really would like any official document to point to that brings up one case of VHS in the world that devistated any wild fish populations or point out where any wild fish populations that had VHS didn't recover.
I am trying to keep this in perspective but you can't have anything tagged as devistating without some sort of proof. In this case, what lake or body of water had the wild fish population desimated from VHS. I see all these lakes and areas that have an outbreak but I don't see where they are saying the fish population is in trouble or it won't or hasn't recovered.
Lastly I have been pro active on this, I have reported possible VHS deaths. Since when does questioning a law that doesn't do what it is supposed to do considered complaining? I'm not a robot that just adapts when something is amiss. And of coarse people will bring the issues up in public, what are they supposed to do? Sit in a closet and say nothing while regulations that have more holes than a wiffle ball are being put in place?
Steve |
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| "A fellow is fishing Muskies on Winnebago coming from Cauldron, and bought 4 $5.00 suckers there. He decides to keep his suckers in his livewell (breaking the law) heads up the Green Bay and trolls, keeping his suckers alive using his baitwell pump, then heads to Vilas or Oneida for the rest of the week. He fishes George, using suckers now infected by the virus, and loses one when rigging it. He dumps the suckers a couple days later in Little John. "
Steve, I'm very much in agreement that your scenario is likely to happen. Even with the new emergency rules, that scenario is still very likely. Yet they'll "ding" a couple people this spring to "make examples of" and sour the public's perception of the DNR on something they don't totally understand. AND.......and the spread of VHS continues. Yes? No?
Further speculation the same person/people that get "dinged" will be sitting at thier local watering hole b!@#hing about the DNR and thier fine and how they were "screwed over". Anyone ever here this "story" before? |
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Location: Rhinelander | Agreed. I hope the new regs will discourage this imaginary fellow. |
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| sworrall:
Let's say the same friend of yours buys suckers from a bait shop in Eagle River, fishes Lake Buckatoban....decides to move, keeping his suckers in his live well, fishes Pelican Lake and then moves to Clover Leaf Lakes. What harm has he caused? Having never touched a body of water that has been VHS positive...the FACT is he hasn't caused any problems.... |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Lastly I have been pro active on this, I have reported possible VHS deaths. Since when does questioning a law that doesn't do what it is supposed to do considered complaining? I'm not a robot that just adapts when something is amiss. And of coarse people will bring the issues up in public, what are they supposed to do? Sit in a closet and say nothing while regulations that have more holes than a wiffle ball are being put in place?'
What. exactly, will the law as written fail to do?
First you say the law is not necessary.
The disease is no big deal.
The regulatory agencies are overblowing the whole thing.
Let Nature take her course.
A virus is a virus and won't be a future issue.
Then it's the law may not be strict enough? Which is it, or are you just tossing mud at the wall to see which bus has rounder wheels?
I already covered, about a dozen times, the 'devastating' issue you keep tossing out there. The inland lake in MI was hit pretty hard. I won't go through the issues of this infection being a couple years old on the ST and entirely unknown what future effects might be, and I ask you again, do you feel the spread of the virus to inland WI lakes and rivers is a good thing? If not, what measures would you suggest to avoid that happening? If you suggest no measures be taken, why? If you suggest tighter controls be put in place, what would those be and why?
Also, I would suggest you take a look at all my posts, see where I have made comments about folks who choose only to complain, and see if those comments actually might apply to you personally before assuming they do.
It's one thing voicing an issue, quite another to abuse a person or persons in the process with the goal of making your point seem stronger. Wouldn't you agree?
Cash,
When the guy is stopped at the landing leaving with live bait, say maybe in Stevens Point, exactly how is the enforcement officer to know where he got the bait, and when, and where he's been since?
There you have it.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I still believe that the bait issue will be the least of the problems in spreading vhs. I believe pleasure boaters will move more of this around than anything. I have a inside track on these people. Also, Bud Lake Michigan, unless there are 2 bud lakes, it is a inland lake. The funny part is, there are a few touring tournament fisherman who live near this lake. I wonder how it got in there?
My beliefs on the disease aside, the fact of the matter is, boaters will carry this around a heck of alot more than the fishermans bait. Heck, the fishermans boats will do a better job.
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| oh and steve don't forget to tell your friend that not all the lakes in WI have been tested for VHS so he could be picking up the virus with those VHS free tested minnows wherever he goes without knowing about it and would have a higher probability of infecting those other waters with a live fish than the water he is spreading around! There you have it in a big nut shell.
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| Tyee:
I suppose these are FACTS that you are spreading around about bait rather than water being the main connection between the spreading of VHS? Seems funny that bait is and has been used in every body of water in the State of Wisconsin, but the only VHS positive waterways in the State of Wisconsin have a direct link to The Great Lakes and the water brought in from across the ocean.... I sold frozen Herring for years and they were used on many lakes around....
Since this rule is in force because the sportsmen can't be trusted maybe EVERY car should be equipped with a breathalizer unit before you can start the engine. Blanket rule to stop drinking and driving.... |
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| "What. exactly, will the law as written fail to do?"
Answer: Doesn't allow the DNR (the actual agency that should be incharge of the fish comming out of farms) the enforcement mechanism to deal with the minnows comming from hatcheries.
"First you say the law is not necessary."
Answer: Over reaching
"The disease is no big deal."
Answer: No, I siad VHS does not pose a devistating effect as some have made it out to be.
"The regulatory agencies are overblowing the whole thing."
Answer: No, I siad Goverment agencies are well known for overblowing things, take the phrase in context for which it was written with the subject of the pharagraph in mind.
"Let Nature take her course."
Answer: Yes, nature will always find a balance for it's self.
"A virus is a virus and won't be a future issue."
Answer: Where did I say it won't be a future issue? The DNR even states the fish will build an immunity to this virus just like any other virus.
"are you just tossing mud at the wall to see which bus has rounder wheels?"
Answer: Come on now, is that how a different opinion is handled.
"It's one thing voicing an issue, quite another to abuse a person or persons in the process with the goal of making your point seem stronger. Wouldn't you agree?"
Answer: Serious? What abuse on this end? Before one points out there is an elephant in the room one should make sure they are not the elephant. You have made some of the strongest remarks about the group of people who don't see eye to eye with you.
Look, like you I have talked to DNR biologists, wardens and others involved in this issue. Apparently the only difference is that my contacts must have gotten their education from a Cracker Jack box.
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| What can anglers and boaters do to help stop the spread of this pathogen? All of
the recommended ways to prevent the movement of aquatic nuisance species (i.e.
zebra mussels) will help prevent the spread of this pathogen. The use of a bleach
solution (1/2 cup to 5 gallons) to disinfect and clean boats, bilges and gear is very
effective in killing VHSv as is completely drying items in the sunlight for 4-6
hours. Cleaning of larger equipment with bleach or other household disinfectants
and power-washing boat hulls then drying the boats and gear in the sun for 4-6
hours is very effective at reducing and eliminating this pathogen. It is also
critical not to and is currently illegal to move live fish between waterbodies, in
particular baitfish, along with any water so be sure to empty live wells and bilges
upon leaving any waterbody. These measures will help control the spread of this
pathogen along with many other aquatic nuisance species.
If bait users can't be trusted...can we trust boaters to follow the rules? If it means drastic measures....ban boating and watercraft use unless boats and or watercraft have been inspected and certified safe.......
sworrall: In your scenario about the guy using suckers for muskies in different water bodies.....did he follow the above methods for treating and cleaning his boat before moving from one water body to the next? If not....he's just as guilty.....
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| Call it fact if you wish or call it opinion, makes no difference to me. Everything I have read leads ME to believe that an alive fish can hold and manufacture the virus longer and spread it further than small amounts of water. Call it coincidence if you wish but that is the same perception that our DNR has accepted.
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/documents/mikestaggsletter.pdf
I believe everyone here has generated a great discussion but still can't fathom why a person wouldn't follow a simple rule such as ensuring that no live fish leaves the waters edge if it MIGHT prevent one small 50 acre lake from (possibly) being "heavily impacted/whiped" out?
There are thousands of places where people can't purchase live bait and they net their own prior to fishing for the day, This is common practice in southern and midwestern states, maybe thats because of the price increases they have seen from all these regulations..(insert chuckle).
Could it be possible that the forcing of testing bait farms is feard to raise the price so high that it reaches a point where one has to resort to catching their own and now the common fisherperson will be more likely to cherish those little creatures and use them sparingly elsewhere just purely due to economics............
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Rhinelander | OK, then:
'All documents involving VHS in the begining state that VHS was discovered in trout farms in the 1940's, the word discoverd does have a meaning. Sorry but yes, the DNR and Enviromental Protection Agency holds the biggest bag of responsability on this. I wouldn't expect something to be done in 1945 but 65 years is an long time to do nothing.'
'I'm not sure exactly how it got to Winnebago, there are many ways including Waterfowl carring fish eggs and insect larvae in from Michigan. The Winnebago system is conected to Michigan, it could be very easy for a bird to carry an infected fish or two over the dam and dropped it into the Fox. I am sure it is a multitude of ways it got here. I just don't see a devistating effect that calls for all these new Federal and State regulations. Mother Nature has a way of equilizing everything. The DNR does go to certian lakes and kill off the lake or just a particular fish like bullheads and that is concidered good!?'
'My comments are stricktly comming from my view behind the scenes in all of the above fields. The DNR has been slow to non-responsive to any threat that comes to this state until it hits and it is too late. When they do respond it is in gross overdose of what is needed. The VHS is an issue but it is not such a threat that there needs to be all this regulations and heafty fines. As I stated earlier, in Europe VHS is a big concern in the fish farms due to the dense population in them but in the wild it has had a min. effect.'
Cash, as a matter of fact alot of the Muskie anglers do exactly that. Is that a problem for you?
'You might ask why the DNR would place regulations in effect for the hell of it but then think, why did they go to all the farm fields and proclaim that any drainage ditch that would have more than a foot of water standing in them for 2 days was now a navagable water way and the farmers could not plant crops within 15' of them. How about recently the DNR comming up with regulations about docks being in 3 feet of water and the docks are not for fishing, diving or relaxing?'
'There always have been fish kill offs in one fasion or another. Sheephead have always died in spring and summer (maybe not as large of one as this past year). Mother nature has always found a balance for her own problems, it's when peolple who think they know better get involved and may solve one problem but opens a Pandora's box on many others. Hatch lake in Iola used to have a kill off of northern every spring. To stop that the DNR installed a pump to force air in the lake. Sure, it stopped northern from dying in the spring but it also lowered the panfish because of all the northern and made the weeds grow out of control. Then they killed off all the bullhead which created even more problems. Solve one problem and create three others.'
'1) Seeming VHS is most common where there are an abundants of fish then why not thin the herd, by allowing smaller fish to be taken by the ever increasing fishermen, that would decrease the population and slowing drasticaly VHS spread.
2) Stop allowing so many fisherman from fishing the musky. Only allow a certian number to fish, have a lottery or manage it like sturgeon spearing. This would decrease one of the strains on the musky population if it is truley an issue.'
'My issue has to do with the over regulation of fishing. What makes anyone think that the regulations stop here? There is a good possibility that an argument could be made that there is no way to stop the spread of VHS so let's ban fishing all together to stop it.'
'Let's face it, the DNR is known for botching things up like eco-systems. Just look at Lake Michigan, it has one huge un-natural eco-systems in the nation. Pretty much every native species that is in the lake is becomming ever so increasingly hard to find, like perch. It is the non-native spiecies that are abundant, and a lot of them the DNR planted in there. There is a good sized group of bio's that say the lake should be brought back to it's natural fish but it is the sport fisherman that is agianst it because they like the salmon, it plays better on the end of the line. This is causing havoc on the lake. The lake needs fish to be planted every year to keep the population. A lake of that size is unable to naturaly support itself due to what? Nature? No, the miss management of the lake. The last I looked the DNR has a huge chunk of that responsability.'
'My issue is the DNR does not truely adress an issue until it arrives and then the action is regulating the heck out of things.'
'I do not see the DNR as being pressured by the public in reality. With the laws they put into place with such things as docks, land usage, farm field drainage ditches and numberous others including deer hunting issues, they do as they please no matter how big the out cry from the public is.'
'In short, they have the responsability and power to manage our natural resouces. With that, their laps along with the EPA are where the blame falls on things like this. I do not believe they can brush aside the finger pointing, they are the managers. I do trust that if the DNR was an elected office position the reactions to these concerns would be quite different. They are not truely accountable to anyone and they do act like it. Not saying all thing from the DNR are bad but when the actions do nothing to truely deal with the issue, I will call it to the carpet.'
'Bio's all over keep stating this will most likly take the coarse of any other virus. The fish will build an immunity. If they didn't there would have been a fish kill in Lake St. Claire last year and there wasn't. Did any fish virus have a longterm negative impact anywhere...no. Is CWD having a longterm negative impact...no. Did west nile virus have a longterm negative impact on birds...no. A virus is a virus and over-reacting to it does just as much harm as not reacting.'
'What would I do? Let nature take it's coarse. It is unreasonable to think that nature can't take care of it's self with this virus and only the DNR has a plausable solution. No fish virus has ever desimated a wild population, we still have all the game fish in this country as we have had, in fact probable more of a population. For every reaction there is an equal reaction and when man trys to be the mastermind in nature the reaction is usually not good.'
'There was no kill from VHS. The first musky kill ever reported was only 4 to 12 muskies. If there was any kill they would have recorded it nomatter how small the number.'
'The DNR does a lot of good and have a lot of good regulations but when it comes to invasives they always look like they are in a cluster and just shooting arrows into the dark hoping they get a hit. I'm not bashing but I do want to lay out the history I am looking at.'
'It amazes me that there is a concern that DNR officials won't post for the fear of being bashed and all along there is a bashing of the ordinary citizen making them appear stupid. Much less bashing someone trying to have a discusion when you fully don't realize who that person may be. It is no wonder the DNR stirs such negative reactions out of people when they are looked upon as stupid or not important. The DNR may not say that but the staunch supporters of the DNR apparently do. Some may have good information but the debating skills need a lot to be desired.'
'I am starting a series in my cartoon that is going to deal with VHS and the different state's DNR and the way they are viewed and I want to thank all that have debated with me. The opinions and information was vast.'
'You could resonably say that the DNR has helped in the spread of VHS.
I happened to take plenty of pictures of the minnow for the record. It clearly shows the bleeding and eyes. Am I supposed to just sit on this if the DNR does nothing? Just because it may make the DNR look bad does that mean I shouldn't bring this to the attention of other influences in the industry. This is i huge blunder whether it be a person or policy. You cannot say you are very concerned about VHS if this incident does not raise a major concern with you.'
'Show me the DNR addressing the natural planting of VHS by birds and being concerned about a very possible VHS case in minnows and then I will take this more seriously than what at this moment I can.'
'Having all these DNR publications and letters counterdict each other doesn't help things either. I don't see the point that you have to take each document in context on who it was aimed at. If that was the case that in a statement directed at the general public stated one thing and another doucument directed towards scientist would state something different, that deffinatly would point to a cover-up'
And so on. Doesn't take rocket science to see where you are coming from here.
Sure, I see your point, but as I have said a bunch of times, I don't know what the overall effect of a VHS outbreak on Pelican might be and neither do you, and on that note I'm hoping like mad I never have to find out. I support proactive actions to slow the spread, and that's about that. If that's 'doomsday' by your definition, then OK, guilty as charged.
You posted you are here looking for fodder for your cartoons and articles. I just want to make sure any fodder you collect here is based in fact and reality as much as possible.
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| Tyee:
I will keep the price of minnows as low as I possibly can. The problem is the dumping of UNINFECTED minnows. In your site posting the DNR says INFECTED bait fish. It's an assumption that every fisherman will use already tested and quarantined minnows in an infected body of water. This assumption is not correct and if a fisherman only fishes in a water body that has already been infected, how is he causing any further infection to the system? |
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Location: Rhinelander | How do YOU personally control where that fellow goes fishing next with his bucket of bait?
Tyee, I think you said it. |
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Member
Posts: 1406
| Cash I can't see how a person only fishing infected waters could spread the disease that is quite obvious, but how do you prevent them from possibly fishing other waters if he so chooses and using those "possibly" infected minnows elsewhere.
Or better yet how do you write a regulation that insures that a person fishing infected waters CAN only fish infected waters? Believe me there was discussion on allowing boats to only be used on certain waters, if this were done would we all have argued that the DNR has taken this "serious" threat too far? I'll take the minnow regulation over the alternative!
Good Luck
Tyee |
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Member
Posts: 319
| Yes, I do have strong opinions. Agian taking segments of what I siad without taking into concideration on what the subject was or what the comments were before it does not reflect all the points trying to be made nor the context. All peoples comments have not been in lock step through-out this debate.
Example: The original musky kill on St Claire was posted as 5000, then 4000, then a publication link stated 2000 to 4000.
Regulations are regulations, they have to be followed. Never disputed that. I live on Lake Winnebago, I have to kill minnows when I leave my shore front even though I will be fishing on the lake tomarrow and my garage is 50' away from shore. Make sense? No, but I have to do it.
Trying to find fodder with fact, can't quite say I fully found it here. |
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| Tyee:
How do you make sure that a person follows the steps to disinfect their boat and or equipment and lets it dry for 4-6 hrs. before entering another body of water?
Isn't this the same? If this was talked about at the meetings you mentioned, then it must have been considered as a possible way to infect a system. Too harsh for the big boys, those that use the system for pleasure boating? Don't tell me that they aren't capable of spreading VHS from system to system...... |
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Location: Rhinelander | I posted every comment with the full paragraph. All anyone has to do is look at what you posted, sir, to get my point. You came here posting as a first time contributor with a decidedly 'anti DNR policy' slant regarding this issue and others. I'm hoping after our exchange you can now see all sides of the issue better and continue to discuss the issue reasonably here. Been a great conversation in my opinion.
After a contributor said he 'heard' 5000, I called Mr. Ramsell and got his answer. I spoke with several Muskie guides from the ST and the Larry, and asked Mr. Ramsell to put a few chunks of data to paper for me and get a few anecdotal reports as well. He's currently putting that data and more into a short piece I'll publish on OutdoorsFIRST over on the Muskie side. The kill on St Clair was estimated at about 4000 according to Larry Ramsell and his sources in the MIDNR, that's the figure I've used from a very reliable source since Brad and I exchanged posts earlier.
I find tons of fact here, posted by all sorts of folks.
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| Tyee:
"Believe me there was discussion on allowing boats to only be used on certain waters, if this were done would we all have argued that the DNR has taken this "serious" threat too far?" How can you take a SERIOUS THREAT too far? |
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Location: Rhinelander | Cash,
There will be, and I'm already sure of this, more volunteers and paid Lake Association folks at landings this year checking boats and trailers. Maybe the regs will relax after awhile, maybe they DO get more stringent. I agree with Stacker that the power boaters who trailer rigs have a stake here, so we'll see where that goes...if anywhere.
Last fall, the landing folks asked me where I had fished over the last few days, and asked if my livewell was empty and my bilge drained. |
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| The DNR consiting of fish biologists and fish management specialist enacted a rule that called for the dumping (killing) of all minnows used in a VHS infected system. The NRB called for the dumping (killing) of all minnows used in any water system. Does the NRB have more insight into the VHS virus than those specialists in the DNR? |
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