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| Message Subject: Once was hidden.... | |||
GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | Every sport or entertainment venue out there is driven by old dogs verses new blood. Unfortunately in the Walleye world, the new bloods are the people who have the hardest time breaking in. Unlike other sports/events we’re all playing with our own money. Heck, now about ½ or more of the entrants into the world series of poker are sponsored. What’s the draw with poker? Anybody who can read/count can play it. People do not have that same perception with fishing tournaments. We’ve always tried to have tournaments on the waters with the best bites at the best time of year to show how big of fish we can catch. Could we build a new fan base by having events on other bodies of water besides the same ones we’ve always had them on? Do the pro Walleye circuits have as big of a following in Wyoming and Nebraska as they do in Wisconsin and Minnesota? I understand that those states don’t have as many premier fisheries, but if they’re not given the chance to host these events and have a vested interest, why would they care if they watch another Winnebago or Oahe event? Another aspect that bass fishing has over Walleye fishing, is that bass techniques are more universal. Throwing rubber worms is something everybody who’s bass fished has done, whereas trolling dipseys and spoons may be something somebody from Washington has never heard of with Walleyes before. This is also where I feel we have an advantage by spreading out, we can really help our sponsors out by introducing new techniques. Unfortunately, the economics doesn’t work out. Traveling across the country is a huge investment. We’ve shot ourselves in the foot on this one. We didn’t spread east or west enough in the formative years, now we can’t get enough entrants in events in those places. Are there people who are nuts about Walleye fishing in those states? Absolutely. Are they accustomed to seeing high profile tournaments? No. If we want this to grow, we have to quit thinking Wisconsin and Minnesota are the only states in the country that matter. Yes, I know those two make up a huge part of the fan base, but we’ve gotten a big chunk of those fans, now we have to expand. I think we need more tournament coverage on TV, but I think the best way to do it is to get existing shows with a fan base to have a 2 minute segment about a circuit. While he was alive, Tony Deans show could’ve been a great venue to showcase tournaments in the South Dakota, North Dakota and Wyoming area. This could even be part of a sponsorship deal for the tv program/channel. If Joe Bucher had a 2 minute segment airing results and a personal interest story for some statewide circuit, the circuit and some of the anglers would gain exposure. The television channel could gain some viewers, but also free advertisers. If I won a tournament and knew it was going to be on that show, I’d tell everybody I knew to tune in. Maybe some of them would like the show and become regular watchers. It may not be perfect, but at least it’s an idea. Here’s an example, the fire dept at Stoddard, WI has an annual big fish tournament that draws on average 400-500 anglers. I bet you $100 that not 30% of them know who Gary Parsons or Pete Harsh are. That’s within one or two of the target states. Many people locally have asked me if I know Jimmy Hughes though, because he won the FLW League championship here (Winona). A local presence makes a difference. I don’t claim to have the answers, but I do know this. The young blood is disappearing and without it the whole thing will fail. BASS has grassroots organizations and the Walleye side needs to as well. Invites to events that cost $1500 for a local angler aren’t going to cut it. We need sanctioned series that allow us to work our way up so we can afford to play. Not just an invite. | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | AIM is doing just that. http://www.aimfishing.com/sanctionedseries.asp I personally think the FLW league was a stronger concept for the purpose of growing the sport, it just was tough on their pocketbook lately. | ||
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| Guest |
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Steve Fellegy - 8/30/2010 12:48 PM Do MINESOTA NFL fans play football? ThMinnesota Fans nothing about serious football!! I want the gal that holds a Super Bowl party (every Sunday)and can't spell shoulder pads! I want that gal too. She's hot! I think she works at Tilted Kilt | |||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | This is what I'm talking about though. The invite is nice, and it's all I'd expect from AIM. However, how many of those spots were taken last year? Most of us fishing smaller circuits can't justify spending that kind of money even though it's a premier event. Poker has satellite tournaments to get into bigger ones. The FLW League did this with state anglers of the year into the tour championship. That was something worth shooting for. A free entry to the big show got some people into that tournament that may not ever try to get there on their own. I don’t expect AIM or FLW to offer 20 free spots, but it would help to get local anglers to support local circuits. This is where the future generations of tournament anglers come from. I’m in the business process field in my career, and each project we take requires us to look at the whole process. Here are my thoughts on it, and why I think we have to showcase events on other water and let anglers earn their way in. The biggest issue we all face is the lack of fan base. Maybe there are people that don’t want to admit it because they’re so invested in it that they think everybody will love it. I don’t see it that way, I think we need to cater to casual anglers and their families first. Right now we only get anglers who are already involved with tournaments or have buddies who are, or anglers from a body of water being showcased (which is the same old same old water). Some of these are one time fans, that only care because it’s their home water or their buddy is fishing. We need to find ways to capture more of that demographic. We need to let anglers who only watch because it’s their home waters know who’s using the techniques they want to learn. I know that pros talk about what they did on the mic, been there done that. The problem is, the ones who get the real mic time are the ones who did the best (deservedly so, but that doesn’t help the guy who wants to learn a technique that wasn’t in the top 3). Maybe the angler who got 5th was trolling leadcore, and that’s what Joe Blow wants to know. That angler needs to have an idea of who was doing it, what were their results, are there similar tournaments with those anglers so they can see how consistent it is etc… This one time or casual fan can become hooked and be an integral part of the tournament scene if the information is out there. Not only does it have to be out there, it has to be marketed to them. They will not find it on their own. We have articles on Walleye sites, we have videos etc… They don’t know it’s there, or it doesn’t answer their questions. How we get this info to them and find out what they need, is something I’m not sure of. Increasing the amount of info and the knowledge of how to get it sells products. This may not be our responsibility, maybe it’s the promotional anglers responsibility to write in to the local newspapers outdoors section with a one time blog after an event. We’re not covering waters that a big chunk of the demographic fish. Yes, Winnebago and Green Bay are the biggest fisheries in Wisconsin, but what percentage of the anglers from this state fish there? Are there better options, I don’t know but we need to consider it. As for earning your way into a championship, I see both sides of this. We used to hear it from the FLW Tour, those anglers that fished 4 events to qualify for a championship didn’t want some scrub who fished 3 league events to get a free ride against them. That’s understandable to a point, but without that the league and the tour lose credibility. What I feel is needed here is sponsorship for just this type of earned invite. So the entry is paid (the anglers who fished the whole tour should be happier because this adds to the pot), and the team who earned their way in from a smaller circuit got in on merit. Can we find 10-20 sponsors willing to do this? I bet if somebody earned their way in through a smaller circuit and competed well at the AIM championship the odds of them stepping up greatly increase. I think before we worry about anything else, these are the things we need to address first. We can’t market to a fan base we don’t have. We have to build that first, and at the same time provide opportunity for up and comers. | ||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'I know that pros talk about what they did on the mic, been there done that. The problem is, the ones who get the real mic time are the ones who did the best (deservedly so, but that doesn’t help the guy who wants to learn a technique that wasn’t in the top 3). Maybe the angler who got 5th was trolling leadcore, and that’s what Joe Blow wants to know. That angler needs to have an idea of who was doing it, what were their results, are there similar tournaments with those anglers so they can see how consistent it is etc… ' AIM Top Ten rewind. Watch 'em, they offer up what they were doing to catch fish, and the GPS tracker shows you where with as many as 5. It's a heck of an equation we are trying to figure out. | ||
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| proeye |
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| one finger typing, how can we get fans when the wheel is square? | |||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | Steve, My point isn't that there isn't info. My point is that the info that's currently out there isn't mainstream. You and I may know where to find it, but that doesn't transcend to the average angler. That is who we are trying to market to, at least to start. We need to get more mainstream media coverage. We keep saying that they won't cover it, but have we tried recently? Sometimes I think most of us think too big. We want every event to be the BassMaster Classic, and that's just not realistic. Another thought on my sponsored championship entry idea is that it could lead to local stories. Tournament circuits and the sponsors could submit a story to the local papers, which builds PR for the circuit, the sponsor, and draws attention to that angler and the championship they're going to participate in. It reminds me of a time when I traveled 11 hours to fish a national championship. I didn't expect any local coverage, but I bet my local newspaper would've ran a story because some local boys were going. They didn't know about it. This is free. It may not be the ultimate solution, but we have to start somewhere. | ||
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| bbbbbb |
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| Kind of like when the RCL Championship was worth $400,000 and they drew over 200 plus Pro Entries. I thought someday a guy could make it big. Then it all went away. | |||
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| Rod Holder |
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Member Posts: 43 | sworral: Good point about a fisherman wanting to learn some technique which does not get discussed since it was not used by the top three who did tell what they did. I only learned about a technique used on Winnebago well after the fact. My tournament partner and I had received an invitation to the Cabela's NTC that first weekend of June. We came in 56th so missed cashing a check by six places. (no matter) I had a great time prefishing the week prior and the two tournament days. The technique I learned about after coming back home is the long rod, intermediate rod, and short rod used by a team of two to get a spread of six lines out without using planers and then trolling through shallow water. Funny too... not everyone spills the beans. The team which occupied first place after day one never said a word to anyone from their home club about what they were doing with considerable success. Their bite was in shallow water south of Oshkosh on the west side but it died on Sunday. We trolled north of Oshkosh over mud using planer boards with decent results on Saturday but on Sunday our bite died too. If I ever fish Winnebago again, I will have a three rod set up for each side of the boat and will try fishing shallower water. | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | Steve F. said "Forget about fishermen! I want the girl that holds a Super Bowl party and can't spell shoulder pads". Let's think about what we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do here, which is become a fan of something she has no previous experience with. My experiment: Take a second, and think about any type of non-mainstream sport/competition that you are a "fan" of. (exclude NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA and Nascar). You know, ESPN2 type stuff like drag racing, figure skating, rodeo, MMA, cycling, monster trucks, etc. A "sport" that you watch when it is on TV, and you know some of the names involved, but no one else in the office does. Got one or two picked out? Now eliminate any on your list that you are already, or have been "involved" in. (So if you have horses, rodeo is out. If you swam in college, swimming is out.) We are looking for things that you "became" a fan of, just like we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do. Now, tell us what it is, and why you like it. Maybe we can learn a little about what it takes to attract brand new fans. Personally, I can't think of one. My whole point is that Ms. Shoulder Pads will never, ever be a fan of tournament walleye fishing unless she actually starts doing it. It needs to grow from the inside. Prove me wrong: list your sport from the above experiment and let's compare it to fishing. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Thumper, the only thing Ms. Shoulder Pads is into is the cute guy on TV. She'll probably never fish, much less tourney fish. But she'll spend money if she watches only a bit of it and sees a few impressions (ads) she likes. Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | I'd like to build the world a home and furnish it with love grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company I'd like to see the world for once all standing hand in hand and hear them echo through the hills for peace throuout the land thats the song I hear Let the world sing today a song of peace that echoes on and never goes away I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony I'd like to build the world a home and funish it with love grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | thumper - 9/1/2010 6:23 AM Steve F. said "Forget about fishermen! I want the girl that holds a Super Bowl party and can't spell shoulder pads". Let's think about what we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do here, which is become a fan of something she has no previous experience with. My experiment: Take a second, and think about any type of non-mainstream sport/competition that you are a "fan" of. (exclude NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA and Nascar). You know, ESPN2 type stuff like drag racing, figure skating, rodeo, MMA, cycling, monster trucks, etc. A "sport" that you watch when it is on TV, and you know some of the names involved, but no one else in the office does. Got one or two picked out? Now eliminate any on your list that you are already, or have been "involved" in. (So if you have horses, rodeo is out. If you swam in college, swimming is out.) We are looking for things that you "became" a fan of, just like we are asking Ms. Shoulder Pads to do. Now, tell us what it is, and why you like it. Maybe we can learn a little about what it takes to attract brand new fans. Personally, I can't think of one. My whole point is that Ms. Shoulder Pads will never, ever be a fan of tournament walleye fishing unless she actually starts doing it. It needs to grow from the inside. Prove me wrong: list your sport from the above experiment and let's compare it to fishing. My answer to Thumper? In the form of a questions! Was NASCAR a "mainstream" sport before your Ms. Shoulder Pads became a fan? Did she drive race cars before she became a fan? For that matter, were ANY of the "main stream" sports NOT new to today's fan at one point? Or were they born fans? Did they create Ms. Shoulder Pads into a fan by having her play in the minor leagues first? WHY in God's name wouldn't one go after Ms. Shoulder Pads just as your main stream sports did? Are all golfers, that are fans but don't play the game, out of bounds for competitive fishing? Do you know the ratings the Volley Ball drew at the Olympics last year? That isn't on your list of "main stream" and yet.....BIG! Or the ratings for Figure Skating? Not mainstream but numbers competitive fishing would kill for!!! ( we need a Tonya Harding story!) And did those fans ever do a double axle first, before being a fan? Ask your self..... Just like ALL sports had to do, a "fan culture" has to be created. With your goals and ideals....it will never grow past a few new anglers each year, just as the past and present. You need to AIM much higher!!!!! Why wouldn't you? Now dang it--I am OFF this thread for good LOL!! Edited by Steve Fellegy 9/1/2010 2:42 PM | ||
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | It's kind of hard to compare Olympic sports to tournament fishing. With Olympic sports, you already have a giant event that brings viewers in regardless of the sport. How many of us are bobsled fans? Yet, I bet you probably stopped and watched a few minutes during the Olympics if you happened to see it on. Think of other sports that have had a cult following but blown up over the last 5-10 years. Poker and MMA come to mind. Poker has always had a following, but never anything like it saw after a guy who had the right name and cool sunglasses won the biggest tournament of all (Chris Moneymaker). Or MMA, Liddel vs. Couture did more for that sport than anything else. They were marketable guys who the hardcore fans loved, but the non fans and casual watchers could really get into. We have the personalities, but where we have failed is making them household names. We have the “Tiger Woods” of fishing. He even has a name that’s perfect for it. KVD should be a name people can remember, but how do we get him out there? We don’t have as clear of an all time best in the Walleye world, but we have some dang good ones. I think the biggest hurdle is perception. My best comparison for fishing tournaments is professional bowling. Most bowlers don’t even follow it. Here are the similarities that I see, to a casual observer a pro bowler looks silly, I’m sure they think we do too with all of our bright shirts, loud stickers on our boats, and spiky haired fools break dancing in their boats. The casual observer also has a hard time putting a real value of how good a bowler or angler is. Anybody can bowl a good game once in a while, or catch a big fish once in a while. About 10 people in the country can dunk from the free throw line, nobody can golf consistently as well as Tiger. These are things they understand. They don’t understand that KVD has been dominating way more often than not. They don’t realize that his competitors feel the same way about him as Tigers do. Liddel and Couture were two top of the food chain guys when they met for those classic fights, and they were hyped as that. After a 6-8 month period MMA went through the roof. Golf went through the roof when Tiger came in. NBA always had stars, but Jordan brought many many more fans. How do we get our guys in that kind of light? That is the question. We can debate all we want, but we need fans plain and simple. | ||
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| hgmeyer |
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Member Posts: 794 Location: Elgin, Illinois | Answer: TV... Show some "producer" how to reap a financial reward broadcasting walleye weigh-ins and I will show you a repeat of the "Housewives of Orange County" | ||
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| Steve Fellegy |
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Member Posts: 150 Location: mille lacs, mn. | hgmeyer - 9/1/2010 4:09 PM Answer: TV... Show some "producer" how to reap a financial reward broadcasting walleye weigh-ins and I will show you a repeat of the "Housewives of Orange County" Now you're talkin'!! Take a look at the message boards that follow that show...6 figure replies to all postings. Same as most "serials". ALL major league sports are actually ongoing "serials". No different then the likes of Dallas. Dynasty or One Life to Live or Big Brother reality shows. When tournament fishing at the top levels become a "serial", you will have fans. All you want. But there ain't an endemic marketing guru that will believe that or allow that..... | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | I agree but I think TV Comes second....TV will follow the money. You can buy and create a Michael Jordan, Jeff Gordon, Tiger Woods Moneymaker etc.....get the right marketing team, the right agent and the product can be sold. These huge sponsors will not invest in a fishing tournament but they will invest in a personality! Those kind of Marketing dollars will attract a TV Show. Good Luck Tyee Edited by tyee 9/1/2010 10:44 PM | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | Thank,s Rich, I really could go for a Coke. | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | :D | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | You can eliminate trying to duplicate the success of ANY sport that requires elite physical ability. (Volleyball, figure skating, MMA, horse racing, etc.). People are fans of those things BECAUSE of the physical ability required. Fishing is like poker, no real physical ability required. So let's look at competitive poker, why is it big? Because thousands of people can enter on-line tournaments any hour of the day, play in tournaments at the local bar, etc. When did it start getting big? WHEN MORE PEOPLE STARTED PARTICIPATING IN IT. Tournament fishing requires no great physical prowess, we don't have exciting crashes and people risking life and limb racing cars at 200 mph like Nascar. We are more comparable to your Tuesday night softball league. The people in the stands are other players, family and friends. That's it. You can promote your Tuesday night league all over town, guess what? No one's comin' to watch. You want more butts in the bleachers? Get more teams, more players, more family, more friends. You get big (like poker did) by getting people to participate. You get people to participate by giving them reasonably affordable opportunities to enter into the sport. It's that simple. BTW, I have great respect for Steve, and this is by no means personal. We both would love to see tournament fishing grow, we just have different views on how to do so. | ||
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| bbbbbb |
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| Poker got big because of the lure of money! The thought of the average Joe winning Millions of dollars by playing poker is a huge draw. Just like they did with the RCL the thought of fishing for $400,000 lured over 200 plus boats to fish. Plus it sold alot of Lunds, Crestliners, and Rangers. Put out the money and they will come and so will TV coverage. | |||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | bbbbbb - 9/2/2010 9:54 AM Poker got big because of the lure of money! The thought of the average Joe winning Millions of dollars by playing poker is a huge draw. Just like they did with the RCL the thought of fishing for $400,000 lured over 200 plus boats to fish. Plus it sold alot of Lunds, Crestliners, and Rangers. Put out the money and they will come and so will TV coverage. Yes, that will work too. Don't hold your breath though. Poker's money came from online poker participation. The players came first, then the money, then more players, then more money. Do you see who is advertising during the WSOP? Online poker sites.
Edited by thumper 9/2/2010 10:14 AM | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | Poker is big because you don't have the huge upfront investment like you do in fishing. There also is far less skill needed so literally anyone can win if they get the right cards. Any Joe can get into a $50 satelite and end up in with a huge payday but still only invested $50 or sometimes even less. I think the best comparison to fishing would be boat racing, tractor pulls or drag racing because you need to spend a ton of money to play the sport. Those sports are suffering right now just like fishing. Most of the tier two sports are. You all have some great ideas but you need to stop comparing apples to watermelons. | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | NASCAR was a fad, Texas Hold'em Poker was a fad. Right now there are more American's that participate in golf, bowling and fishing, all individual sports, than any other sports. There's plenty of people participateing already. How do you model tournament fishing to get the already active fisher people to become fans, to participate. To spend their money, which all of you seem to be focused on. One suggestion, don't make the promotional portion an in your face infomercial....I like tournament fishing, I'm a fan, but I hate how I'm always being sold something no matter the venue. Make poeple curious, there interest alone will provoke them to buy. Shoving it down their throat, is a turn off. Eliminate the greed....The game can grow. Edited by Jayman 9/2/2010 10:48 AM | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=13088012 Very quick read, please take the time. Maybe this is what should be reported more often about our sports competitors instead of hearing, "I was going to ram anyone who tried to get close." Maybe the sponsors want the high road? | ||
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