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| Message Subject: 'Teams' in Pro Walleye Angling..Opinions? | |||
Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | How does everyone know who the guest is? Is RNT a special guest of our ours and that's why he gets to use the special guest handle? I'm just asking. I think RNT needs to attend a few more pro level weigh ins and stop using his hypothetical situations as fact. Your assumptions of what kids expect is off based in my opinion. And why are kids the only fans? | ||
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| Guest |
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| It's me because of my IP address. I'm guest because I type nothing in guest name. Been to many tournaments but lost total interest many years ago...and key elements for a fan base in the sport is missing right now and that is the problem. Take it for what it is or dismiss it entirely. | |||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | RNT: Your banter is getting real old. Many have tried to give you suggestions, out of the box ideas, and the benefit of doubt. It's getting to a point that if you have nothing nice to say ...... well you know the rest. I'm starting to back others that say shut up or put up. Instead of constantly saying it is broken; that won't work; "no, no, you miss my point; or Take it for what it is or dismiss it entirely.............. add value or be ignored. I run into very few everyday fishermen who pay attention or even care about tournaments. To add to the discussion, most people that I know who follow the upper echelon of tournaments do so to learn more techniques, spots, and the mindset of how to interpret or dissect. It was sad to see Walleye Insider go. Many bought it to read about the tournament results and techniques. Ever see the FLW mag? Great coverage that gets you excited. I disagree with you. Many watch tournaments to learn. “There are no tour boats to load up on and follow the pros on the water to see them in action up close and get excited”.
Guess you have never watched a BASS tournament where there a 50 boats out on the water watching the tournament fishermen. I have had some watch me and I have watched others as a observer.
“…… there is no sports memorabilia for him to collect, no chance of catching a fly ball or puck, and no jersey he can have signed.
Boy, sometimes you act like you have not been to a real tournament. I see many handing out baseball card like memorabilia; signing hats and jerseys; and dialoguing with the kids like your son. One of us is missing something.
“Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it…”
Seen this often, where have you been?Done it myself. | ||
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| Guest |
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| "The fan base works and is needed in most other sports because the fan produces revenue. Revenue in the stands. Revenue by watching the sport on TV. (commercials) Revenue by buying the jerseys, hats, etc. How does our fan base produce revenue?" Was this not your words? Having people take their own boats out to watch and not have a way for the everyday person without a boat to do the same is not creating any revenue. Keep thinking of the fan base as only people who have boats. What store can my son visit to buy a trading card for all the pro fishermen? What tournament can he attend that all the pros carry franchised trading cards? What store can he go to purchase a jersey that looks just like on of the pros? Where are the cards located so he can collect one of a pro he doesn't get a chance to see at a tournament? Banter is getting old but all I ever hear is the industry is doing everything brought up...so I must not be in reality. Since everything is being done and done correctly there obviously is no concern at all with the size of the fan base and everyone considers it satisfactory. Congratulations on the success. | |||
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| Guest |
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| "Start keeping multiple statistics like how many strikes compared to how many actually hooked compared to how many made it in the boat. Invest the money to start producing memorabilia for people to collect. Apparel, bobble heads, trading cards, posters. Hire tour boats like the Spirit of the Fox to charge and bring spectators out on the water to bring them up close to the action. Take a lure out of your tackle box and give it to a kid after you sign it… Don’t just rely on a kid’s clinic after the tournament is done…give something tangible from the sport itself instead of letting them leave with just a memory, it would mean the same as a signed baseball. Run it like a sport…where the rules of engagement are the same across the board at every game and applies to everyone. Right now there are competing factions and they are not uniform." If these are not considered ideas then you are right, I have nothing to offer. | |||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | The first paragraph is ridiculous on it's face value. Impossible, too. The second has been and is being done, many of the pros have baseball style cards and hand them out freely Where would the 'tour boat' go? Which pros would they follow? it's hard enough to find them with a camera boat. What if the bite's off...what do the tour boat folks 'watch'? And if they were close enough to actually see what's going on....they'd be too close. Already answered the last one. Sunshine nailed it. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | Revenue isn't being generated but rather shared. I think what some, myself included, are saying is that we are going after the wrong sponsors and if new team concepts are being done these guys should think big and rewrite those business plans.... Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | if new team concepts are being done these guys should think big and rewrite those business plans.... Elaborate, Tyee. The players are dwindleing, the game needs more players. You can't write a bigger business plan for more fans and offer less. Like wise, RNT, you can't offer bobble heads, gimics, and gizmos to attract a fan base. I mean, really? Who's buying cracker jacks for the prize in the box still? The game needs a new generation of players. The price to play as marketed is rediculous. And not teams or any other gadget you want to come up with is going to bring more players or fans. Once the industry sits back and realizes that the new generation can't afford the top tier game as it is "sold" today. That is when the "game" will find new players. | ||
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| tyee |
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Member Posts: 1406 | I don't have the answers either Jayman. BUT. I think AIM has a good start at it. If they can get the concept perfected and come up with a model that works for them. It needs to be haded down to a group willing to organize something similar as a minor league it would be much more attractive to the new generation. In addition if there is ever a true multi player team that is funded through a large sponsor it doesn't necessarily have to WIN but needs to be marketable. How many times a year do you see a Nascar at an event with a "driver" promoting something, do you have any idea what kind of dollars a driver makes to fly in and sign autographs? (its HUGE) What it costs to have the semi bring the car in from Charlotte (ever see Dale Earnhardts look alike nascars up close?) He alone was estimated to have 5 million fans and he didn't get there playing for a discount on Goodwrench! RNT has some good points although I don't think gimmics for the fans are going to do it, you need the investors and a level playing field first, if you build it right they will come. A true team model would need to remove "advantages" for example: Nascar has a motor size restriction, restrictor plates, spoilers etc, etc. As another thread recently discussed the price of a fully rigged boat, team A in a 76k Ranger with a merc 300 may have an advantage over team B in a 30k TUffy with a 150, therefore it could be argued that he has an advantage, Irwin tried leveling the playing field once with identical boats on the last day, was it too expensive to continue? There are all kinds of "ADVANTAGES" I'm sure collectively we could come up with a few pages of those advantages we'd like eliminated to level the playing field............but then again...................is a team really an advantage? Good Luck Tyee | ||
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| eye Lunker |
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Member Posts: 859 Location: Appleton wi | Hey tyee , Do you and RNT have the same mother? HaHaHa(kidding) Tyee how many l tourny's have you fished in your life? Edited by eye Lunker 6/18/2010 7:52 AM | ||
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| Sunshine |
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Member Posts: 2393 Location: Waukesha Wisconsin | Tournament fishing can and will survive with very few attending weigh-ins.
How many of you have sat and watched fish swim by an underwater camera on the Wolf? http://wolfrivercam.com/
How many have tuned into an AIM event to watch the GPS tracking and on the water interviews? (Steve and AIM, we need more of these) http://www.aimfishing.com/
How many of you have watched the brand new camera feeds from "On the Water Live" with Steil, Przekurat and Courts? http://www.onthewaterlive.com/index.cfm
How many of you have logged on to a site to chat while watching the weigh-in?
How many of you have gone to the FLW web site to play Fantasy Fishing? http://www.fantasyfishing.com/ (side note: RNT, you can get some of your stats at this site also. It is interesting to look up people who visit the WF site and see how many FLW tournaments they have done and their results. Sometimes I use this info to distinguish between the players and the pretenders on this site.)
How many of you used the walleye rankings here on WF? Watched the video from the event? Read the articles?
My point is a simple one. Stop thinking about tournaments within the model used to cover them in the past. AIM is starting a great new trend for walleye fishing. They are using something called the internet. And I think that internet thing will catch on. Add new Apps for your Iphones and Blackberry's. Sell RNT's trinkets from the site. Have an artificial only tournament sponsored by 1-2 companies and then sell the lures on the same web site during the tournament (wouldn't this show companies that people are watching?) Web presence for tournaments as we know it today is in its infancy. Tie all of things above together onto one site. Keep it free. Make it fun. Offer give-aways. Offer other things for a fee that people may want to buy. Offer all of this and some sponsors will sponsor your site not the tournament.
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| Jayman |
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Member Posts: 1656 | I kind of get tired of the NASCAR comparison, but for those that belive that is the model. Fine. Sure, Dale Jr has 5 milliion+ fans. etc etc etc. Consider this, how many speedways do you know of in WI alone? Dirt track, paved, oval, road? I'm sure some text book brainiac can find those stats, after all statistics are important. Now lets consider that the sport of NASCAR is deeply rooted in the south, where marquee named tracks are not that far apart. Some of those marquee tracks aren't extravagant, they have history. The stuff that legends are made of. The equipment, the top end, best of the best, is what make up the raceing billboards you all speak of. The same is still true even at the small track local level. The difference, Average Joe buys a junker at the junk yard and dumps all of his money into tires and an engine in hopes of being the next Dale Jr. As he gets better and wins, he will look at the top end equipment. The competive edge that it takes to compete with the best of the best. It becomes an invesment in knowledge and equipment. Everybody wants that top tier game, but you need to have new players you need to have a host of "courts" for people to sharpen their skills, establish the pecking order and allow the cream to rise to the top. Then you'll have a top tier game. The industry continues to market and sell to the established players, but very few new players can afford to play. | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | Jayman - 6/17/2010 10:45 PM The game needs a new generation of players. The price to play as marketed is rediculous. And not teams or any other gadget you want to come up with is going to bring more players or fans. Once the industry sits back and realizes that the new generation can't afford the top tier game as it is "sold" today. That is when the "game" will find new players. Your internet words of truth makes me cry a little on the inside.
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | My head is starting to hurt. I've agreed with Jayman and Stacker in the same month. This is a new thing for me. I've said it several times before and will this one last time. We need better stepping stones. The old time tourney guys just say “Jump in and prove you belong”. That’s not how things work these days. Less and less people are willing to mortgage their future on a fishing tournament, especially since the payouts are so much lower than they were 5-10 years ago. Everybody wants to test the waters before taking a plunge. I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler. You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. I still believe that today. Look at all the sports we’ve compared tournament fishing too. They all have some sort of minor leagues. Don’t tell me the MWS or club tournaments are the minor leagues. They are great, and can build a lot of experience, but it’s not the same as fishing a pro/am. $1500 or even $750 is an awful high entry price for somebody just to gain experience. Fishing as the sole planner and decision maker (pre-tournament) of your boat is much different than working with a partner in a team event. You may get a great co who can be a huge help. But in a pro/am format, you cannot count on that. Most are great, but you have to develop your own plan and anything you get from your co is a bonus. This is a whole new experience for a new tournament angler. Without spending time fishing these types of events they will not know how well their skill set stacks up. Bass fishing has stepping stones, even though I don’t think their model fits us 100%. They have events like the BFL, where anglers can compete for a little more money but still not break the bank. These are what’s needed if we want new anglers. If we continue with the current team events and high end pro/am events only, the high end pro/am numbers will continue to diminish. | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | GNWC Rookie - 6/18/2010 10:00 AM I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler. You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. Dude, that was a one time thing, and I wish you'd stop bringing it up. Trolling is boring, and the mind wanders sometimes...
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| GNWC Rookie |
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Member Posts: 625 Location: LaCrosse, WI | thumper - 6/18/2010 10:54 AM GNWC Rookie - 6/18/2010 10:00 AM I’d love to see AIM start up an entry level circuit. Think of the possibilities for the aspiring angler. You probably wouldn’t have as much hubbub, but you would get a chance to run the CRR, get a feel for the pro/am format, fish against stiff competition etc… I was hoping to have a FLW league this year with a schedule that worked for me. When that disappeared, the first thing I thought was, “Wow, here’s a chance for somebody to develop a mid-entry-level circuit that really works”. Dude, that was a one time thing, and I wish you'd stop bringing it up. Trolling is boring, and the mind wanders sometimes...
It wouldn't be etched into my brain if you wouldn't have kept telling me to check your rod for weeds. What the hell does that even mean? | ||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | tyee - 6/17/2010 11:34 PM A true team model would need to remove "advantages" for example: Nascar has a motor size restriction, restrictor plates, spoilers etc, etc. As another thread recently discussed the price of a fully rigged boat, team A in a 76k Ranger with a merc 300 may have an advantage over team B in a 30k TUffy with a 150, therefore it could be argued that he has an advantage, Irwin tried leveling the playing field once with identical boats on the last day, was it too expensive to continue? There are all kinds of "ADVANTAGES" I'm sure collectively we could come up with a few pages of those advantages we'd like eliminated to level the playing field............but then again...................is a team really an advantage? Good Luck Tyee I wish you people who think you know all about tourney fishing, and NASCAR racing, would stop trying to state what you really don't know about either. On one hand we're told that NASCAR has teammates that don't compete against each other, or share information. Hooey! Then we are told that NASCAR has rules, and tourney fishing doesn't. ie, engine size, restrixtor plates, etc. Pro tours also limit motor, and boat size, and also restrict many things. Nascar allows radio contact to discuss race set ups, strategy, etc. Banned in Pro Tourneys. Nascar has restrictor plates on some tracks. Pro tourneys restrict the number of lines, they type of baits, and the type of communication. Just a few examples, so please stop!!! Also, as far as I know, you can't run that 300 HP Verado in the AIM or the FLW. Also, I seriously doubt that would give an advantage over the $40K team Tuffy with the 225 Opti's. Again, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Remove the advantages of the teams and level. But is a team reall an advantage? What??? The more you talk, the more you make my case. Also, I don't have a clue what is going on between rookie, and thumper. Don't know what check the rods for weeds means? Trolling is boring anyway? If you are not willing to be a good co, how can you expect to be a good pro? | ||
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| Rich S |
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Member Posts: 2300 Location: Berlin | Rumor has it you are the best Co out there Shep. Word has it you definitely did your part  | ||
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| thumper |
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Member Posts: 744 | Shep - 6/18/2010 1:57 PM tyee - 6/17/2010 11:34 PM I wish you people who think you know all about tourney fishing, and NASCAR racing, would stop trying to state what you really don't know about either. On one hand we're told that NASCAR has teammates that don't compete against each other, or share information. Hooey! Then we are told that NASCAR has rules, and tourney fishing doesn't. ie, engine size, restrixtor plates, etc. Pro tours also limit motor, and boat size, and also restrict many things. Nascar allows radio contact to discuss race set ups, strategy, etc. Banned in Pro Tourneys. Nascar has restrictor plates on some tracks. Pro tourneys restrict the number of lines, they type of baits, and the type of communication. Just a few examples, so please stop!!! Also, as far as I know, you can't run that 300 HP Verado in the AIM or the FLW. Also, I seriously doubt that would give an advantage over the $40K team Tuffy with the 225 Opti's. Again, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Remove the advantages of the teams and level. But is a team reall an advantage? What??? The more you talk, the more you make my case. Also, I don't have a clue what is going on between rookie, and thumper. Don't know what check the rods for weeds means? Trolling is boring anyway? If you are not willing to be a good co, how can you expect to be a good pro?I agree 100% | ||
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| bradley894 |
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Member Posts: 591 Location: in the boat off the east shore somewhere | rookie, reality is there are stepping stones. smaller tournaments offer the same competion. if you want to test your metal against the big boys simply take a week off work and pre-fish then fish the two days of the tournament on the same water under the same time restrictions and rules. Fish hard and see how your day goes. check computer for where you would match up after day one and make your plans for day two.... No entrie required. unfortunatly there are no paid stepping stones to the top. and the top level current pro's are not sharp as a whip in marketing some fishing related product or service they will also be digging into there pockets to fish at the top level just as we dig in our pockets to fish a lower level.. some guys who love fishing have deep pockets from other buisness ventures or windfalls of some sort. they can play the game as long as they find it gets there blood pumping. if your like me ... one good power ball ticket away from the big show.... well i feal your frustration. Bass does have a ladder to the top. winning your smaller league event gets you an entry to the next level in most cases. yet bass fishing can be done on inland lakes in most cases much smaller locations. all you need is a 16 foot aluminum dolled up jon boat with a 50 on the back if that even. if you make it to the big dance there will be plenty of freinds made by then to help if you need a rig that will run 60 miles at 70mph.. walleye fishing on the upper level has become a big water game a guy can find a nice competitive boat for ten or fifteen grand if he wants . but i know of a few small bass clubs and these guys have no problem even running tournaments on lakes that have a no gas motor allowed on sunday rule and no wake. i have been talking about a little tiller series for a year now and mulling this project over... but if you have a boat bigger than 17ft from tip to tail or over 60 hp.... guess what... YOUR OUT... or maybe ill create a rule you can only run on your kicker.... what do i hafta do make a call and go in front of the AIM board of directors and see if i can get a slot for our tour champion in one of next years events? maybe the little kicker tour can pay the champion boats way to the big time. oh wait that would be two entries woulnt it! now the lil tiller tour needs to rais entries by 100 bucks a tourny. the only thing stopping me from doing it is the permit process and i have seen what kind of headaches a director has to deal with at a walleye tournament.. my idia is to build something based of fun and freindships and honor... not sure i could do it with the kind of folks set on spoiling the fun. | ||
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| KTurner UL |
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| Another thread of interest turning into a small battle of nothing... RNT - I give you a lot of credit for pushing the envelope. Obviously some people feel competitive walleye angling is suceeding when in fact it's about to or has hit the bottom. Until the sport (or whatever you'd like to refer to it as) figures out a way to put the focus on the angler, pro(fessional), pro(motional), boater or whatever in the heck you want to call it I feel it will go NO WHERE. Perhaps it'll recover but it won't be long until it's back on it's knees. Somehow (and I don't have the business knowledge and acumen) a group of people need to establish a business plan for competitive walleye angling and insure that both the participants and sponsors create synergy so both gain financially and from a promotional standpoint. If the current designs were so great why would we be having these conversations? Lastly - if you don't agree with someone is it truly professional to bash them (even subtly) or call them out? I truly challenge many of the posters on this thread to look in the mirror and ask themselves if their responses represent a "professional" in any walk of life (well anything but the NBA, NFL or MLB). From my experience working with medical professionals I think you'll be sadly awakened and disappointed. Teams in competitive angling? Ridiculous and a complete contradiction to mano a mano (one on one) fishing. Level playing field? Yeah, get a clue and again look in the mirror. Maybe AIM is on the right track and will be fun to watch. Hopefully things rebound and for me personally, I'd like to be back competing when time permits. Kurt | |||
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| sworrall |
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Obviously some people feel competitive walleye angling is suceeding when in fact it's about to or has hit the bottom. Until the sport (or whatever you'd like to refer to it as) figures out a way to put the focus on the angler, pro(fessional), pro(motional), boater or whatever in the heck you want to call it I feel it will go NO WHERE.' 'Maybe AIM is on the right track and will be fun to watch. Hopefully things rebound and for me personally, I'd like to be back competing when time permits. ' I believe AIM's entire goal has been to do exactly what you are suggesting. As far as RNT, he reaps what he sews in reaction by folks responding to him during the debate. Most of the responses are not from Pro anglers. 'Calling someone out' to ask them to either back up or offer facts behind an accusation, claim, or exclamation of 'fact' isn't unprofessional, it's part of any spirited debate. Lots of personalities in play here, so one expects varied responses and reactions to the questions and answers. I'd ask you this: Isn't it the economy that has driven the sport's successes and failures, for the most part? When Jacobs was flush and the money was coming in from sponsors, the Pros fished the events. When the money from sponsors was tough to come by, the Circuit shrank, the payouts shrank, and the Pros didn't show up; perhaps because they can't afford to fish...because of the economy. Isn't it all about the money, when the rest of this is fleshed out? When the money got tougher and tougher for the PWT to collect from endemic and non-endemic sponsors, wasn't that a contributing factor? As folks fell into the funk sure to be the reaction to the financial meltdown in the US, EVERYTHING was effected, and I personally feel the beginnings were in place to change how events were covered and focus more on the Pro; that's why AIM formed up, and that was in process before the demise of the PWT and the closing of Walleye Insider and Walleye Fan. Teams in Pro Walleye Fishing. Opinions? | ||
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| stacker |
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Member Posts: 2445 Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | n/m Edited by stacker 6/21/2010 12:19 PM | ||
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| Johnny V |
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| I am with Shep, quit comparing walleye fishing to Nascar. We need to level the playing field, I ask for who? The boat doesn't catch fish and the last time I looked I have never caught a fish with my motor. I will give you a perfect example of leveling the playing field is just plain silly. i just fished a tournament this past weekend in northcentral Wisconsin. There were Rangers, Tuffys, a Yar-Craft with a 275 hp Verado. I have an Alumacraft 165 with a 90hp fourstroke. Sure I felt intimidated, but I still fished because I love to walleye fish. Did they have an advantage - one would think so, no I did not win either, a father daugter team won fishing out a I'm guessing a 1970 fiberglass tri-hall painted baby blue with a 25 hp tiller. The yfigured out something we all didn't, that is fishing, and if you do not agree, maybe you should see your poles and watch Nascar | |||
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| Shep |
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Member Posts: 3899 | Hey, somebody agrees with me! I hear there's a few out there afraid to PM me themselves. S'ok. It's about par for the course. Biggest difference between NASCAR and Pro fishing Tourneys? A majority of non-endemic sponsiorship. Most team's major sponsorship comes from outside the auto industry. Some minor auto related associate sponsorship is evident. None of the automotive brands are major sponsors anymore. Dodge was the last, with the Evernham teams. Name one automotive related company that is a MAJOR sponsor. Pro Tourney fishing now? NO major non-endemic sponsors. A few associate sponsors. Not nearly enough. AIM is for the angler, by the angler. FLW/PWT is/was all about the promoters, with little emphasis on promoting the angler. Jacobs got more press than Skarlis, KK, Parsons, and the rest. See what I'm saying? | ||
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