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| and I repeat again.... There is no problem here, just don't mandate artificials as the wave of the future and impose your will on others. If Berkley thinks they are as good or better than the real thing then don't be afraid to compete against natural bait.
I'm not against fake ones, nor am I only into real ones, like all good men I think they all are good and that is how it should remain!!!!
Hey guest, if I'm collecting a check I don't care what they see on my hook. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Stacker,
I bet the Pros out there would fish a circuit 'either' way, especially if the venue was selected to be "friendly" to the 'artificial only' rule.
The debate here isn't so much about whether an artificial only event would be accepted by the Pros as much as whether each individual.. Pro or No.. answering 'likes' the idea. The Pros and Co Anglers at the Can AM showed how to catch those fish jigging and rigging biodegradable live bait replacements, and I bet the techniques would transfer to quite a few other waters. That said, if one doesn't like the idea...just because it worked at the Can Am won't change the mindset.
Personally, I like the artificial lures only idea when pitting the US best of the best against the Canadian best of the best. Made the event more interesting, and didn't hurt the catch totals at all. Those guys are very good at what they do!
If a circuit implemented the ruling, I'm still on the fence as to how ALL the available Pros would react, but if it's the only game in town so to speak, I bet the events would fill up pretty well.
I see 'messing with tradition' being the largest part of the problem. Am I wrong? |
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| Steve, I agree.
I seriously think you would get a whole new group of fishermen that would "play the game". Some of the very best fishermen I know, fish almost exclusively artificial. At the same time a couple of those same guys have absolutely no interest at all, fishing tourneys or competitively.
just 2 cents. |
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| CT said "Hey guest, if I'm collecting a check I don't care what they see on my hook."
Not trying to pick on you in particular as many people have the same thought but this is the kind of mentality that will keep walleye tournaments from ever becoming as big as bass tournaments.
THe cream will rise to the top whether live bait is allowed or not, it's the indian not the arrow that matters! |
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| guest said - THe cream will rise to the top whether live bait is allowed or not, it's the indian not the arrow that matters!
Exactly, so why mandate one or the other, as I continue to say WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO FORCE THE ISSUE- WHAT IS THE GAIN.
This is so simple why screw with it? Right now you have your choice, if you can beat the others with artificial great, use them all you want, if you can't, well then go home and wait till the next time. It's already hard enough to keep a circuit going (no PWT ring any bells) so lets go ahead and tick off more guys with more limitations. This is like a couple idiots arguing about who can beat who with an arm behind their back and only one leg and then the one wins and the other says double or nothing but now you can only use a row boat and no motors. What is the sense???? |
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Location: Essexville, MI./Saginaw Bay. | sworrall - 8/18/2008 4:03 PM
I see 'messing with tradition' being the largest part of the problem. Am I wrong?
Steve.
It's not about messing with tradition to me Steve. It's about fishing for and catching walleyes that I know are not going to respond as eagerly to impregnated rubber during those finicky times, as they do to the real deal flipping, vibrating, acting, smelling and sending out signals that only real bait can. And about me taking clients out who are not as savvy about casting, jigging or making artificial's look good enough to entice a strike. I've seen a bad cast with live bait entice walleyes out of their comfort zones and to strike the real bait when nothing else would. With that said, I'll challenge any man alive Pro or Novice to go with me on the Tittabawassee River between Thanksgiving and Christmas and out fish me using Gulp or any other artificial while I use real 3 inch Emeralds. After 22 years fishing that river and seeing others using twisters and all types of artificial's, I know they do not get the same results. And I hate to say this, but IMV walleyes and most fish in most of the "under fished" Canadian lakes will eat anything that does not eat them first during their short, plentiful feeding seasons. Doubt my word, leave your stringer of fish tied to the dock or boat over night on one of these lakes. Fished tied in that manner around here would grow old and rot on the stringer before anything would bother them. But this whole argument (Pro or Con) seems overblown to me, and a waste of all our educated time. Each individual decides what works best for him within legal parameters. If he wants to get into a artificial tournament only, he can. But I personally hope live bait is here to stay along side of artificial's.  
Edited by walleye express 8/18/2008 4:47 PM
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| I don't think anybody is trying to force anything down our throats but I do think that artificials would be a step in the right direction, and I would be curious to know if this years Can-am event resulted in a better release rate than other events at this time of year up there? Tie that "public perception" into our nations ever growing concern of invasives, and artificial only events might just become a bit more attractive to sponsors that are looking to invest in organizations that are doing everything they can to protect our resources! It seems to be working for Bass why wouldn't it work for Walleyes? and maybe the directors could share some of those sponsor dollars! Heck....doesn't Tiger get paid to show up and golf?
Good Luck
Tyee |
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| LOL...Sunsine, all you do is disagree with just about everyone. Many times I have questioned if you fish or even own a boat. I know you don't tournment fish so what do you care!
ss |
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Location: Rhinelander | ss,
Boy are YOU misinformed. I have taken a fair number of pictures of Sunshine crossing the stage at Weigh In time. If he's on that stage at the events weighing fish he caught, I'd say he's fishing tournaments, wouldn't you?
Dan,
I didn't mean to say this is about most tournaments, guiding or just fishing, it's about 'competition', and stepping that up a notch or two in an event or two a year. |
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| Sworral, thanks for the clarification.
ss |
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| tyee I have nothing but respect for you but the point I keep try'n to get through here is that artificials are already available and the companies can do all they want to promote them already, nothing is stopping anyone anywhere from using them exclusively if that is what they want, but apparently all the "artificial only blow hards" on here don't want to compete if others are allowed to use natural bait. What are they afraid of. So until Berkley and others et al start to pony up $100,000.00 events like some sponsors for BASS do then I don't think it's worth it to me to be limited since it's me who is paying the entry fee. How many PWT guys do you think are using artificials on the Wolf in April? Could they, I suppose but why make them. The way to show case walleye tourneys is by having big baskets of fish for people to oooh and aaah about, and that means using whatever is working best at the time. |
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| thats the real question,? why does anyone care? tyee and sunshine , i love you guys but what exactly is this "STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?" is that code for something? i hear it a lot with politiacal speak... you guys are a well rounded bunch,, and look with out berkly's support and sponsorship the can am woulnt have been possible , (TRANSLATION they wrote a check!!!) this is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yes lets all go with artificials for this one tornament no live bate.. cool beans.. maybe some guys learned to like the stuff and will spend more money in the futur putting another tackle bag togather over the winter full of the stuff..... BUT in a few weeks there will be an mws tournament on the bay, if you think im going to be fishing with artifical bait over live bait before i figure out what i think will work the best for that day your on something! and i would pre-fer to have the choice.. CRANK baits , pLastics, live bait or rabbit terds on a stick with a hook in it... the angler that puts togather the best program on location , presentation boat controle and yes BAIT will win!!!!!!!!!!!! why are you guys so sold on those bass guys are doing it why dont we.... WERE NOT BASS FISHERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOST OF THEM DONT USE A NET DO YOU WANT ME TO JAM MY THUMB INTO A 9 LB WALLEYE ON THE BAY IN A FEW WEEKS CAUSE THE BASS GUYS DO IT? i love you guys but whats the real deal? is it the spread of vhs? is it that live bait spreads the emerald ash boar or something? do you HATE YOUR LOCAL BAIT SHOP OWNER? WHAT GIVES? |
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| CT, I think it's about public image, not sponsorship $'s or being fair. The general fishing public sees these people fishing the tournaments as pros, and in there mind pros don't use live bait. The bass guys don't, the musky guys don't, why do the walleye guys need the live bait crutch? |
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| guest, all I can say is you don't have a clue. The public couldn't care less what bait I used, there is no public perception problem, have you never watched PWT or FLW Walleye on TV or In Fisherman, they always show walleyes being caught on natural bait. If perception was a problem I don't think some of the biggest walleye tourneys ever would be on TV showing that nasty ole pro hooking that poor little wormy on his big mean pole. Oh and watching Pete Mania catching huge muskies on suckers is always a good show, can you say slob o saurus rex
which reminds me I saw Jimmy Houston catching many bass on live bait under balloons on his show, hmm he sure does have a perception problem don't he. |
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Location: Manitowoc, WI | I really can't believe the amount of replies to this thread. I also cannot believe this is a hotbed issue.
My opinion: as long as the rules are the same for all I'm fine with it, whether we are allowed to use live bait or not. I still can't agree with those trying to make a point that this would raise the level of anything in walleye tournament fishing.
There seems to be many more important issues than this, just my opinion......payouts, participation, making it affordable, leveling the playing field, number of days of a tourney, number of lines, horsepower allowed, use of guides, networking, and co-anglers/no co-anglers just to name a few. |
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| CT, where do you want me to send the check? hehe....but guest is right WDNR has some interesting numbers you might want to look at about our sport of fishing and competative angling. Who knows how much money Berkley throws at Bass vs. Walleye?
Live bait has been proven to increase mortality in many species even walleyes I believe there was a study in MN in recent years, Bass learned this years ago and you'd be hard pressed to find a Musky tourney angler using live bait. They may not even allow it, but others could tell us more as I'm no expert. This isn't about your "right" to use any legal means. This is really about public perception and what may be better for the resource. We all know that tournament angling has been taking many shots in recent years for many reasons. In order to gain more popularity and grow we have to get by those obstacles. It also is not about weather you can catch fish better one way or the other. Bass and Musky guys are prevented from competing during the spawn as the seasons are closed, someday Walleye will get there too, so I wouldn't be too concerned about April toruneys on the Wolf, Nor would I be concerned about big limits of huge fish on the stage as this has proven to be more of a negative perception to somein our sport. Lets face it we won't grow until we find new ways or accept the ways of others that are succesful already and their methods...If you build it they will come......
Good Luck
Tyee
Edited by tyee 8/18/2008 8:41 PM
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| I did many Musky tourneys in the 90's and they essentially are all artificial, so how come the Musky Tourneys have not grown in popularity. If it is as simple as being all artificial the Musky circuits should be only second to BASS. The reason is simple, nothing to see on stage. Who wants to sit and see 60 % zeros in a tourney. Obviously a little more to it than that w/regards to catching Musky and releasing and so forth but if it was as simple as artificial vs natural then Musky tourneys are way ahead of the game. I still say people love seeing the guy on stage hoisting big bass in each hand, every one going ga ga when they lift them out of their bags, yep that is big TV and that is where the revenue comes from. When I watch that at home I don't think hmmm I wonder if he used a worm or not.
Tyee, how bout you just pay for a weekend trip up to Sturgeon Bay for me |
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Location: Rhinelander | CT,
Muskie events are not as wide spread because there are WAY fewer Muskie anglers than Bass. there are fewer Walleye anglers than Bass, too.
Muskie events are 'no live bait' for conservation reasons mostly, even though new 'quick strike' rigs pretty much eliminate most post angling mortality from using suckers if used correctly; that's the rub. Actually, artificials only has become a tradition in the Muskie tournament world. |
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| Sworall: Exactly, and that is one of my points, there is sooooooooooooo much more to why one type of fishing is more popular than the other, IMO limiting walleye tourneys to a certain type of bait is just that "limiting" and will not prove to provide a boost in numbers, $, or popularity. Having something for the novelty of it or if some sponser wants to run their own is fine, actually very good, but I think it is wrong to try to make this the new way and profess it to be something it is not. If Berkley or whoever wants to run their own circuit more power to them and the limits they impose. I guess we could take this as far as saying then no sonar, or GPS, or fish cameras, no nets, no pre-fishing as they are all "crutches" also.
I still see no good arguement as to why it has to be only artificial if in fact they are so much better than natural then what's the problem, what are they afraid of from the little nightcrawler. |
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| If tournaments start to change to Artificial Only, that does not mean the weekend angler is going to lose your livebait. You can still go catch all the smallies you want on leeches right now, the bass guys just don't do it. Just relax and embrace change. Bait dealers will be fine and we may all learn to fish walleye a little differenent. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | I do hope that people do not assume that everyone wants artificial only in tourneys because of the 4-5 that are telling us on this thread it is the way to go? Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but I see that when the live bait guys give there, they are wrong as they are told by some here. |
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| well it makes for good conversation anyway, gives us a reason to check in on the site more often. i would love to build the ultimate kettle of chili and have a good old fashon picknic in the park somewhere on the shores of lake winnibago or the bay after a morning of fishing(bait or your choice) one thing is for sure! i will be using real 100% grade a Beef in the chili , until berkly or somone comes up with something else that will get the boys off the couch ill stick to the good old bait mother nature intended me to use... big pot of pork n bean flavored gulp panfish mini marshmellows (NOT) maybe some rubber johnsonvilles ,,,,,, heck i wont even buy the pre-cooked... i can see the stance tyee is taking ,, forgot that he was an avid musky guy,,,,,,, those gators rolling around on the bottom spending the time to take in a 15 inch sucker , ya i can see his point there in tournaments, and mortality.. i guess a slip bobber rig in the guts of a walleye could mean the same fate but we are dealing with milions of walleyes and plenty of food pantrys to feed if it ever gets that bad... oh were going to need some fire cooked sweet corn too .......... anybody actualy game this year for an outing or is it all talk again this year? |
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Location: LaCrosse, WI | I would like to see a circuit try it out, but definitely not all circuits. I don’t truly believe that going all artificial would make a bit of difference as far a public opinion goes. Would it be easier for tourney directors? Sure it would, that’s one less thing that they would have to worry about, but 95% of the time it’s not a problem anyway (with the exception of events like the League Championship this year).
It could open up some new sponsorship opportunities, but I think it will be pretty limited. If you think about the assortment of Bass lures out there compared to Walleye lures, (half of the stuff we use is bass tackle anyway) it’s easy to see why the bass tourneys have better sponsorship from lure manufacturers. There are simply more of them.
Another big advantage Bass has is media coverage. You can get magazines that cover the majority of the major bass circuits in one publication versus Walleye magazines which are dedicated to just one circuit. Look at the swim jig phenomenon a few years ago. It’s a lure that’s been around but not that widely used, and it blew up when a few major tournaments were won with that lure.
Maybe there would be more lure impact if there were a publication that covered the FLW (Tour and League), MWC, NTC, formerly PWT, whatever AIM has planned and some others, but as it stands most non-tournament anglers are only getting info from one source if at all.
I agree with Jerry, that the Walleye world has other issues to worry about first. Let’s figure out how we can keep big sponsors happy so we can have decent payouts. Raising entry fees every year isn’t the answer in my opinion. If a tackle company wants to step up and make a real offer for a artificial only circuit, then we should really have this conversation. |
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Location: Rhinelander | Stacker,
No 'wrong' or 'right', just what each angler thinks one way or the other. Today, the accepted norm is live bait AND artificials, tomorrow we will see, based on what the event organizers, anglers, and sponsors want to see. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | sworrall - 8/19/2008 3:03 PM
Stacker,
No 'wrong' or 'right', just what each angler thinks one way or the other. Today, the accepted norm is live bait AND artificials, tomorrow we will see, based on what the event organizers, anglers, and sponsors want to see.
Sworrall, you are right, there is no right or wrong when it comes to this discussion, but as I reread the posts it does seem that some are pushing very hard for there side. With nothing more than a platform based on public opinion being reason to change from live bait. You and I both know that the general fishing public has no clue what BASS,PWT,FLW or like stand for or mean.
Today, many competitive fisherman carry a box of favorite plastic, because, well, because you just never know when it will be needed.
A couple tourneys come to mind that I would not have wanted to see the outcome of the amount fish caught if it was artificials only. Fall on the missouri river. july on bay de noc. I am not saying these or any others won't have fish caught, but I can damn sure tell you that audience participation requires fish being brought to the scales. 100 teams and 30 fish dont cut it. |
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