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| stacker - 10/27/2008 5:07 PM
Dave Landahl, thanks for kicking tournament walleye anglers, at every level in every state, right in the coin purse. That article will take guys, who had dreams of entering, and you just single handedly crushed them. It will stop many that were to enter, they will decide not to. It will slow the sales of boats and the tackle industries will feel the lack of impact as well. I cannot believe that a person like you would write such jibberish. Do you want this sport to die? Do You even realize what you just said?
I don't understand what he said that was so bad. Had he indicated that anyone who ever entered a tournament had a great shot at fame and fortune........well that isn't what he said. He spoke the truth and you have a problem with the truth? Perhaps a few thousand political commercials on TV is what you need to understand the truth. 
FYI, I don't fish tournaments but I do believe in free speech and showing both sides of an issue. You can't possibly paint the tournament scene as a way to make a living. |
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| As i was reading through the posts i wondered how long it would be before one of the regulars on here who shamelessly promotes anything he can would be realize he is the epitome of that article and get all bent out of shape about it. And look who it was The last couple chapters of iaconelli's book deal with the same issues, and Dave is spot on with his article. Well done Dave. Hopefully this (the article) will stir the pot enough. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | hahahahahhaahahahaahahahahaaha, you are a piece of work. you kids, well, lets just leave it at that. |
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| Well.... this thread went a little while before someone had to get personal.
Why does this have to happen over and over? Is there no civility?
We lost another contributor recently do to this garbage.
I guess we can just keep trying.
Take care,
Jim O |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | But that always happens Jim. I am sure Brain Kordus(slipknot) is well informed on what he speaks of. He must know what I have been doing.
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| I think the old adage should apply here......don't shoot the messenger!!!
Dave hit the head on the nail with his article. |
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | The article states:
In fact, some of the world's top anglers can't afford to fish (or don't want to go broke doing it). When you take them out of the game, you don't actually have a competition that includes the best of the best.
Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this? Do the fisherman think there are better guys out there? Man, I know alot of guys that fish and ain't one of them certain about anything, oh, other than the fact that they can win the tournament that they are entered. Not the next guy.
He also states:
In my estimation, the bottom-line is this. Until the day comes that "pro" anglers are actually paid a salary to fish and not just given small morsels to feed their addiction, then we will truly never have pro anglers. Yes, marketers, businessmen and women, but not truly pro anglers.
Right now we are independant contractors, all making deals on our own. What happens if there is a paid salary? Do we all have to then be on a team, or employeed by someone to get the salary. Do we have to make less money so its and even playing field? Will there be salary caps? The last statement is paramount, he states: "Yes, marketers, businessmen, but not truly pro anglers.
Your darn tootin' they are them things. As far as pro goes, everyone has a different idea, to each his own. Some have worked very hard to get to where they are. SOOO, Because the mass' cannot figure out how to make the dollar at this game, at this level, the ones that are, are supposed to , now get this, "Redistribute the wealth". |
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| "Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this?"
I'm not sure believe is the correct term.....there are guys at the top that are constantly networking with NON Professional anglers....this happens at every stop of the tour. So, I'll answer your question with another question.....As a "top" angler, would you ask a "lesser" angler for help? I too know many anglers, and I know many of them don't believe they can win a certain event, but they feel like they can cash or compete. There's a big difference between competing, and truly BELIEVING you can win.
"In my estimation, the bottom-line is this. Until the day comes that "pro" anglers are actually paid a salary to fish and not just given small morsels to feed their addiction, then we will truly never have pro anglers. Yes, marketers, businessmen and women, but not truly pro anglers. "
I'm going to speak for my interpretation of what Dave is saying. Until anglers are paid to show up, PAID to run boats/motors, or truly can make a living. Which means in my estimation, means making 6 figures.....it can't be considered professional fishing. Where did I come up with 6 figures? Cause it costs over 30k a year in expenses. I know for me, having a family and such....I'd have to make 100K before expenses to consider a career change.
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | Corey Heiser - 10/30/2008 4:27 PM
"Do you think that the guys who are fishing at the top end believe this?"
I'm not sure believe is the correct term.....there are guys at the top that are constantly networking with NON Professional anglers....this happens at every stop of the tour. So, I'll answer your question with another question.....As a "top" angler, would you ask a "lesser" angler for help?
Response:
Information gathering, checking notes and then putting a game plan together on the water is a far cry from asking a lessor angler for help. A tidbit, a piece of the puzzle yes, lessor, well, that has interpretation as well. Someone who is not fishing that event would be considered as a bench mark as a lessor angler, AGREED? Ok then, would we ask someone for any pertinent info regarding that body of water at that time of year? Well We certainly would. But help is a long word with few letters.
Everybody interprets things differently. However, there are guys who are getting paid to show up. There are guys who are making cash. Maybe, and just maybe more than what you think. Again, they are independant buisnessmen. There is no public disclosure. Maybe a union so group health could be explored. Theres an idea. I dont think My kids will be alive to see the day tournaments become different than independant business'. |
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| "Everybody interprets things differently. However, there are guys who are getting paid to show up." Not by the organizers of the tournaments.
"There are guys who are making cash. Maybe, and just maybe more than what you think. Again, they are independant buisnessmen. There is no public disclosure." Honestly, how many walleye tournament anglers do you think are making "cash"? 30-40? We're talking about 9-10 states worth of people, and less than 50 are doing well.....THAT'S ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE!!! Ex. In ND, there are 3 full time professional walleye tournament anglers. Johnnie Candle, Jim Carroll, and Tom Backer. That is not very many.
Maybe a union so group health could be explored. Theres an idea. I dont think My kids will be alive to see the day tournaments become different than independant business'.
Stacker,
I know there are guys making a living and some are doing well for themselves, but we're talking about the group as a whole. You go down any tournament leaderboard and it's 80-90 percent full of guys that aren't making ends meet with just their fishing careers. I'm not trying to create negativity or anything like that, cause I hope and wish that there could be 200 walleye anglers making a GOOD living being a pro fisherman. And maybe my standard of a good living and your standards are different.
IMO, the industry has created a real damned if you do, damned if you don't system. EX. Sponsors give a "new" guy discounted product and he proudly wears his shirt/hat/logo on vehicle. Which is great for him starting out, but he's just devalued a sponsorship. Cause the sponsor figures, I don't have to give the midlevel guy money cause I've got a ton of startups willing to do the same thing for no cash. And notice I didn't bring up the top guys, cause they know what they're doing. TV, magazines, seminars, etc...Right now, it is horribly hard to transition from "newbie" to "fulltime". TOO MANY GUYS ARE HAPPY PAYING 40K TO WEAR A SHIRT AND HAT!
Anyways, I hope tournaments will grow and allow more anglers to fullfill lifetime dreams and goals. |
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| Corey,
I couldn't agree more. I think making a "good living" as a Professional Angler would be awesome. I just don't see how many can do it in such a competitive, limited market. God bless the ones who can. I'm fairly certain not many are doing $70K/year or better on a consistent basis. Considering the trips/hours required to fufill some of the requirements of being "sponsored" plus all the expenses of being a tournament angler, I can't see the wages being near what my family need to live on. I'll stick to my day job, as well as doing some side projects for "tourney cash" and continue as a self sponsored tourny angler who loves "the game" for what it is.
Tim |
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| The sport became top heavy as it became ever more expensive to enter and compete.
The sport will never again obtain the excitement of the "growth" years under the fast and loose years of the Lindners.
If one sell tournament boats for a living there is only one suggestion; get over it. |
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Location: Rhinelander | I disagree. First, there was very little 'fast and loose' about the Lindner In Fish PWT organization. Second, there's plenty of innovation right now, and new and exciting things happening. Third, what is a 'tournament boat'? A big water Walleye rig, correct? Those are not going to cease to exist and folks stop fishing big water because of a recession, this too shall pass and folks will again be buying. Finally, I don't see the sport as top heavy, I see it as the other way around.
What are the available sponsors supposed to do with a new angler in the sport? Start him/her off with a $50K salary, a new rig on a memo, and expenses? What is, then, the newbie to do, turn down a heavily discounted rig and wait until someone offers big money? It is what it is because there's few realistic options unless the sport grows, and grows quite a bit, and that, I am sure, is FLW and AIM's goal long term. Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem.
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| "Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem."
Steve, thats the typical thinking inside the box mentality that is limiting the growth of this sport. Time to get a bigger nut(shell) and concentrate on bigger sponsors, IE Rolex Nike, Pepsi, Coke, Miller, Bud, Google, Yahoo and so many others with HUGE marketing budgets. but i'm sure you know that already.
Good Luck
Tyee
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Location: Fremont, Wisconsin | OK, I like this discussion. So, we are now going after big sponsor dollars in the non-endemic world. I can sell anything, hire me for the job, but I need direction. Tell me this:
What is your sales pitch, to a sponsor, to get them to cough up, well.... how much money do YOU think they should pay? How much do you want me to ask for? Can you tell them our fan base numbers and what they would be getting in return? Can you tell me what cokes dollars of investment are for the super bowl and return per fan? Can I tell them projected growth?
This is plenty easier to say than to do. Then, the fisherman want someone, say me, who has done very hard work, to just hand the cash over. It has been proven from the time you went to college that if daddy paid, you did not do as well as if it was your own money. Or even a scholarship, because you earned it and took pride in it.
I do not want to poo poo anything, but be realistic, the sponsors will not write million dollar checks to impact say 1 million customers. When they look at the demographics of our sports fan base, they will find that there allready touching them fans with another avenue of advertising. That is also crosssing, cross marketing, with other hobbiest's of another brand. "Killing 2-3-or even four birds with one stone". There is many things to remember when doing this.
And I have to say this, but I am sure you allready knew that. LOL
Edited by stacker 11/7/2008 10:09 AM
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Location: Rhinelander | 'Steve, thats the typical thinking inside the box mentality that is limiting the growth of this sport.'
Really? Then please show me how to drag in the non endemics and offer them the exposure they require to spend the money that would launch competitive angling into the Pro Sports category, and show me how to convince the endemics to toss their entire promotional/advertising budget into ONE venue of the many available in the fishing world. The horse has to be in front of the cart. They don't push worth a darn.
"Even in good times, the current sponsors out there do not have the dollars available to fund the entire sport. That, in a nut shell, is the core problem."
Let's fund the sport and say the field of 'I want to be a Pro Angler' contestants is 250 in the US and Canada right now. Let's say they all want a living out of competitive angling. A 'fair' compensation average would create a base budget of about $42,500,000.00, and that's just take home 'averaging' $50K and a standard benefits package, plus expense accounts and necessary equipment. Now let's run the events, etc, add a couple million more. Buy the ads, promote the product, get it on national TV; add several million more.
That kind of money would fund the sport and get it out in front of the public, hoping the potential new fans love it as much as we do. Who's stepping up? Someone might, I guess, after all Professional 'Wrestling' has a pretty good following.
It is what it is, and the changes will come, but only as fast as the new machinery can run. The forward thinking companies will get in while it's inexpensive by comparison. |
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| "Then please show me how to drag in the non endemics and offer them the exposure they require to spend the money that would launch competitive angling into the Pro Sports category"
I have no idea Steve, but relying on fishing industry sponsor dollars is the wrong way thats for sure. My best guess is to hire an agent and market yourself! Names like Mike Jordan, Tiger Woods, Dale Ernhardt, Jeff Gordon and thousands of others come to mind as they have done it well and their agents have done it well for them. What are their sponsorship dollars worth to them?
Can fishing get to this level? Can they build a loyal fan base by using the public domain as their playground?
With all the pink slips flyin' around these days it's gonna take some innovative thinking, and some guys with darn good agents. They all know that a few free goodies from the fishing industry manufacturers are hardly worth their time and effort.
Good luck
Tyee |
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Location: Rhinelander | Agencies go to potential sponsors and make their pitch. If there's not a direct ROI then there's no contract Agent or no Agent. The infrastructure existed for the Nascar and PGA pros of today to be ABLE to hire an agent and get something done, it's just now being considered in the pro fishing world.
The 'public domain' is the Media, right? |
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| Wow! Quite the discussion... I've been involved in bass tournaments for 13 years... fishing in them, running them everything... Drove all over the country, used so many vacation days it is scary... I was gonna light them up... Failed... The money I blew is scary... took me 2 years to dig myself outa that hole... I have alot of opinions on this here goes...
B.A.S.S. sucks... I would never sign up for them if it wasn't for the weekend series... they have taken the average guy right outa the mix... he who has the motivation, the time and the money, is outa luck...
I've been at the events, seen the pros on the water helping themselves out... the guy who shows up to fish can't compete against KVD, Fritts and Elias when they are helping each other... the big names want to keep the money right there, in the big names... so does ESPN and B.A.S.S.... I had a problem with a big name pro on the water... got heated... Ray Scott came up to me and told me to my face... we don't need you, we need him... and yes, he has a giant melon head...
I'm of the opinion, pay your money and fish.... pick how much and where... thats why FLW is good... you can go big time or little... but they push the ranger deal too much, a tuffy guy better really catch em! I have no idea what is going on in the walleye tournament world... I do know nothing in the northeast... shame, some great fishing over here...
If you can afford it go for it... make sure your bills are paid first...
right now my bills are paid, I'm catching bass better than ever... every day in a tournament I'm on fish to win... things happen doesn't work out... my problem now is time... I'm not gonna drop a federal job to go fish... I've seen tournaments dark ugly side... I pay my entry and know what I'm getting...
Maybe tournaments should be run by anglers not promotors... take some of that cash and give something to the guy sleeping in the truck... throw him a burger or a gas card to get home...
tournaments should be 100%+ payout all cash no boats or nothing... nothing taken out for some"classic"
how much money did B.A.S.S. and FLW get from chambers to get them to come there? Somebody should post that number.... NY state alone coughed up about 100,000 last year...
make it for the anglers, then the fans, then the sponsors.... everything else will work out... |
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| great post iceman by the way.. but guys this is all comming down to suply and demand! i know we here and many like us cant get enough fishing coverage but there is no general public demand to support more competitive fishing on tv . the top publications on the magazine shelf have enough stories and hero's to fill there pages with plenty of content sell there publications and tv .. are you going to get ten magazines in the mail a month? are you going to watch 20 hours of tournament coverage a week on tv.. OK most of US may.. but we arent the general public.. and the advertizers in the industry have plenty of options .. the major heavy hitters are in all the major sportinggoods outlets and on the shelf.. you dont see a cabellas or gander mountain next door to every wallmart do you? are thay as big as a wallmart? every town has a grocerystore or 50 a gas station or 50 but how many have a bait and tackle shop or 50? if you want to play in the big league you need to have the money and the time.. something a very small percentage of our population has (both) of that small amount of the populaition there are many hobies or things we love to do to turn pro in and plenty of places to make freinds spend money and compete.. auto racing , would be fun! golf would be cool, snowmobile racing? competitive shark tournaments? horse racing, dog shows, bmx with your kids, trap skeet and shooting options, sailing , boat racing, motorcycle buildoffs... drag racing , the cananball run.. airplain shows , car shows , texas holem , gambling of any kind , look it all takes time and money! Walleye fishing competitively is no different.. For the guy who is frustrated and a bit short on time and money your not alone.. the things i like about it is the competitiveness of the game and the folks who play the game.. you make a lot freinds .. but when the stress of money and time come into the game its not fun anymore. its ugly for half the field.. i am now going to fish a few larger events close to home and i will be searching for a smaller club to play ball with every couple weeks to get my fix.. even thinking about forming a sunday catch and eat series . low stakes and something that pre-fishing isnt a must to compete.. there are some great anglers out there that dont have a lot of time.. they dont have a lot of spare income to blow and there tired of the stress.. but there good people and fun to be around.. so the trophy is smaller and the check isnt so large.. it needs to get back to lets all meet for a beer saturday night and we will all get up in the morning and cut the crap.. i think if you like competitive walleye fishing its time to get a good club togather and start having some fun! for most its going to end up the only option unless your blessed with a checkbook and the free time to hit the road twice a month and drop 3-5 grand a week fishing. either your a Big shooter or your not? which are you? Face it and accept it! big shooter ya we all wanna be.. but some just cant pull it off . Get angry blamb the industry or the game all you want but there isnt room for everyone. so for now its a dream... im ok with that.. some do whatever it takes to make it happen.. some dont wanna risk it all.. remember most fail... start a new club and gather up these guys and fish and compete. wed nights whatever.. you dont need a 50 k boat.. a 1980 17 footer can catch plenty of fish too.. if its a boat parade you like then wash up that new rig in drive from tour to tour.. hit the big events around home... cool i have no problem with that.. but as far as room for us all and plenty of checks to go around.. wake up there is no demand for it from the public.. most dont give a sh** and its time to come out of the either and understand our love of walleye fishing and competion doesnt make it a money maker for but a small few.. |
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| another thing.. Now you go to a larger tournament.. everyone shows up with there gear on at the rules meeting.. they all go out fishing 3/4 th of the field gets there A$$ kicked and doesnt even hang around after because the need to get home or dont feal good about there day and dont find pleasure in sharing the time with freinds . they dont even stick around to support fellow anglers that had the day of there lives! big boats fancy shirts cool sunglsses and an attitude.. i look at the guys how joined AIM.. do you know what i see? i see 3/4ths of them as oldschool longing for the day when they all showed up at a destination for a shootout! names and representives of there home waters ... all booking rooms and taking over a hotel or resort on the water for a long weekend or short week away from home.. plenty of good food and a beer or two and the big names .. guys who loved fishing and being around freinds with the same pashon... i see a group longing for time 20 years past with the dream that they can also make a living at the same time... thats what i see.. i hope it works ! ive maybe fished 60 tournaments in my day.. many of these guys have fished hundreads and hundreads. one thing we all have in common is we are all searching for something that is missing and its time to figure out if what we are looking for exists at all? |
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Location: mille lacs, mn. | I said I wouldn't comment here anymore but as long as the "Lord" has spoken...I must answer him. (don't dust his post)
To say the least, the "Lord" is RIGHT! Not only was AIM formed to provide P & K a place to fish and earn a living but ME TOO!!! And EVERY other investor/angler in the company and others who follow as well. AIM wasn't formed for any other purpose but to make money for many people and many companies!
The "Lord" needs to post how the thing is "rigged" though. "Crooked" buddies??That confuses me.....are you saying the 7 guys who formed AIM are crooks? MY LORD!!! We used OUR money(original 7)--NO ONE else's money to form AIM.
Careful what you say "Lord". |
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| As I see it, AIM, PWT, FLW and all the rest are intended to be profitable enterprises. Unfortunately, the PWT'S economical viabltily came to an end.
The beauty of the whole process is that those who choose to participate in any of the events can do so on the merits of the process. The FLW entry in Walleye has done well to date. Hopefully AIM and others can contribute to the options to anglers that choose the participate.
What I do not understand is the insipid jealousy that some seem to display regarding those succesfull in the industry.
Anyone with any knowledge of the tourney scene knows how much time and commitement is needed to be succesfull in game. Certainly, developed relationships are benefical in any venture. It is up to all of us to develop our own networks as well.
I vote for anyone who attempts to grow the sport. All the negative rants add nothing.
Take care,
Edited by Jim Ordway 11/15/2008 1:22 PM
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Location: Rhinelander | Jim and Steve,
I personally apologize that was up as long as it was, I was on the road. |
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| For the most part I thought there was interesting input on this matter.
Clearly, a lot of folks have given these matters a lot of thought and provoke others to either rethink or defend their positions. Mostly good stuff.
As the cold weather begins to linger, we will see more and more of the casual visitors dumping their trash:)
Take care,
Jim O |
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